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So a local power gamer came up with the idea to run assassins in vangaurd detachments so that he can stack his whole list as characters.

This abuses the character rule giving him full control of your target priority from turn one.

Here is a picture of his units, the picture has 2 more snipers than what he used in his list.

Main converation i want to start is about why games workshop let this through play testing and how can one prepare to counter a list like this.

The obvious hard counters are assault heavy list because you dont have to assault the closest model but many armies will have to wait till turn 2 to assault and in all of our expereince here our army is third less power after his first turn.

The other reason for this post is to show other that this list exist if they have not seen and with enough exposer mayber gw can fix the problem at the source.

Here is a similar list from a tournament: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2017/08/40k-the-unstoppable-list-wgc2017.html

I have full faith in GW dealing with this. Given their quick response to the Flyer spam issue.

TBH it's quite simple to fix. Just change the Character targeting rules to only apply to 'normal' units and not other Characters.

Then you can target what you want in that list.

They could also make Characters 0-1, 0-2 choices etc., but this is a route that they do not seem keen on in 8th.

Easy fix would be to just make the Assassins unique entries.

I think both fixes are probably needed. Characters shouldn't be able to hide behind each other and assassins shouldn't be spammed.

Umm, this really doesn't need a fix. Turn 1 charges are actually quite do-able and shred these things. Running your own assassins (like even Ratilngs and Eldar Rangers) also circumvents his own use of the character rule.

We're seeing these lists now because GW moved too fast before. The flyer nerf promoted Guilliman parking lots and other gunline armies. This is a response to that. Give it some time. Let the meta breathe or the law of unintended consequences is gonna hurt.

I agree that characters shouldn't be able to shield each other, but I'd find this an interesting list to play against. it'd be tough but fun

Not sure what the proposed fix would be for characters but this list isn't too bad. Just kill the units that are protecting their units. The assassins are way overpriced for what they do. Yeah they have an invuln but it's only a 4++. Just drown them in wounds and they drop like a rock

 luke1705 wrote:
Not sure what the proposed fix would be for characters but this list isn't too bad. Just kill the units that are protecting their units. The assassins are way overpriced for what they do. Yeah they have an invuln but it's only a 4++. Just drown them in wounds and they drop like a rock

While I don't think it needs a fix, it can be harder than that. The usual combo is to use Culexi in the front and then have Librarians cast -1 to Hit spells, making them unhittable (or even just difficult without the Librarians).

Also heavy flamers, jump pack infantry, hordes that doesn't give gak about hitting on 6's. Usually depending on deployment, you don't need to kill all culexuses, just enough to deny bubble wrap.

My list would wipe him due to sheer amount of immolators on first turn. Meta will verify this in tournaments. If this type of list will seriously destabilize it, gw will have to faq this. If people will find good enough counter without sacrificing much in other matchups, will be ok as it is.

In local play, bring horde, flamers, all stuff that you wouldn't put in a single TAC list, and drink his tears. Thats the only way, because in local gaming the problem is not the list, but the guy behind it. And seriously, talk with that guy after you smash him, and ask if he does know why he lost. If he thinks that he can bring cheese and thinks he's a good player because of it, let him remind how it really works.

Guy who invented this list admits that this was basically antimeta list , one time trick, that it is easy to counter, but people don't bring its counters to the tournaments.

 luke1705 wrote:
Not sure what the proposed fix would be for characters but this list isn't too bad. Just kill the units that are protecting their units. The assassins are way overpriced for what they do. Yeah they have an invuln but it's only a 4++. Just drown them in wounds and they drop like a rock

The tactic of this list was discussed before: have the culexus assassins out front to soak up fire because you hit them on 6s as well as them having a 4++ save. Think someone also mentioned making them -1 to hit them on top of that so you can't actually fire at all.

Not particularly bothered about this list myself since smite and CQC can wipe this army pretty easily (serve you right for running firing lines and parking lots).

I dunno. I think that list would be fun to play against and with.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I dunno. I think that list would be fun to play against and with.

It's a nice shenanigans list.

how would indirect fire interact with this list? could morters circumvent having to shoot at the culexus ? or would they have to target the closest character ?

 zedsdead wrote:
how would indirect fire interact with this list? could morters circumvent having to shoot at the culexus ? or would they have to target the closest character ?

Indirect fire does nothing to counter this list. All indirect fire does is remove the LOS requirement.

fair enough...

you know what is a good idea to counter this sort of crap.

Putting up a tactica that rips it an new A-hole.

Post up units from all factions that hurt the culexus. once the masses can counter it.. it generally goes bye-bye.

Flamers of all stripes do a number on him. He's not great in assault either.

Other assassins can ignore him.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:
Not sure what the proposed fix would be for characters but this list isn't too bad. Just kill the units that are protecting their units. The assassins are way overpriced for what they do. Yeah they have an invuln but it's only a 4++. Just drown them in wounds and they drop like a rock

The tactic of this list was discussed before: have the culexus assassins out front to soak up fire because you hit them on 6s as well as them having a 4++ save. Think someone also mentioned making them -1 to hit them on top of that so you can't actually fire at all.

Not particularly bothered about this list myself since smite and CQC can wipe this army pretty easily (serve you right for running firing lines and parking lots).

Culexus can't be affected by any psychic powers at all, though. What else would give him -1 to hit on top of that?

GhostRecon wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:
Not sure what the proposed fix would be for characters but this list isn't too bad. Just kill the units that are protecting their units. The assassins are way overpriced for what they do. Yeah they have an invuln but it's only a 4++. Just drown them in wounds and they drop like a rock

The tactic of this list was discussed before: have the culexus assassins out front to soak up fire because you hit them on 6s as well as them having a 4++ save. Think someone also mentioned making them -1 to hit them on top of that so you can't actually fire at all.

Not particularly bothered about this list myself since smite and CQC can wipe this army pretty easily (serve you right for running firing lines and parking lots).

Culexus can't be affected by any psychic powers at all, though. What else would give him -1 to hit on top of that?

There are powers and equipment that can give a -1BS to the target unit rather than -1 to hit the culexus. I was only half paying attention though because I don't play Imperial stuff and my friends have never really thought about using such a list.

 mrhappyface wrote:

GhostRecon wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:
Not sure what the proposed fix would be for characters but this list isn't too bad. Just kill the units that are protecting their units. The assassins are way overpriced for what they do. Yeah they have an invuln but it's only a 4++. Just drown them in wounds and they drop like a rock

The tactic of this list was discussed before: have the culexus assassins out front to soak up fire because you hit them on 6s as well as them having a 4++ save. Think someone also mentioned making them -1 to hit them on top of that so you can't actually fire at all.

Not particularly bothered about this list myself since smite and CQC can wipe this army pretty easily (serve you right for running firing lines and parking lots).

Culexus can't be affected by any psychic powers at all, though. What else would give him -1 to hit on top of that?

There are powers and equipment that can give a -1BS to the target unit rather than -1 to hit the culexus. I was only half paying attention though because I don't play Imperial stuff and my friends have never really thought about using such a list.

Yeah, wasn't sure what you meant

How do flamers help against the list. My problem wasnt the culexesb. Its the fact that i couldnt kill one model before i had to target another one and my army was a small footprint army the dscythe gaurd done the least wounds of all, my wraithlords and a perils warlock take the win for most wounds dealt.

As for taking a tailored list against the guy, why cant we just stop these kind of armies at the list building stage of a tournament. None of us have had fun because our armies cant opperate, its one thing to fork an opponent with 3 serpents and 3 lords so they have to pick the bigger threat and another to force your opponants shooting options.

Our consensus on the solution would be that if the closest eligible target is character then it can be shot, fluff is that how could a unit in hiding or combat know to warn or protect the eligible target. Gw says that the character rule is for fluff that in a mass of units you cant tell characters apart, well if hes standing in the open hes easy to pick out. Another variant would be to say that a character within 3" of a non characterinfantry can not be targeted in the shooting phase.

Flamers hurt all the assassins pretty bad. Lots of hits and fair wounds to force saves, which they'll fail cause 4++ ain't that great. Good for Overwatching Calidus and Eversor too.

Now, if the Culexi aren't causing most of your problems and you can't kill another assassin in a single round of concentrated shooting the problem is probably your list and positioning. This isn't really so scary a list tournaments need to intervene.

How do you concentrate shooting on one assassin. My wraithlords had 2 flamers each, did nothing because the rolls to hit are too swingy, the glaive at s9 d6 damage done the work.

The guy said he has nothing to deal with vehicals yet he destroys three serpents in 3 turns and on turn one destroyed a wolve forgeworld flyer transport. I dont know if you realize how much this list control what its opponent has to do. If he makes one assault he could lock your whole army out of shooting because its the closest model. The list can only be hard countered and thats called list tailoring which is wrong to do.

vaurapung wrote:
How do you concentrate shooting on one assassin. My wraithlords had 2 flamers each, did nothing because the rolls to hit are too swingy, the glaive at s9 d6 damage done the work.

Two Flamers should average you 7 hits per Wraithlord. If you're getting less, blame luck, not his list. Your army is fairly slow while his is mobile and he took advantage of that. You needed to not spread out so much and instead stay focused.

You might also want to take into account that Wraith units aren't a top tier competitive list in any form but what he is running IS. You brought a fluff list to a competitive game, whether you knew it or not.

The guy said he has nothing to deal with vehicals yet he destroys three serpents in 3 turns and on turn one destroyed a wolve forgeworld flyer transport. I dont know if you realize how much this list control what its opponent has to do. If he makes one assault he could lock your whole army out of shooting because its the closest model. The list can only be hard countered and thats called list tailoring which is wrong to do.

He's controlling so much because you're not responding right, that's all. You're slower than him. Don't try to match him for board control. You should be able to predict how he is going to move in advance to abuse the character rule. Position yourself to punish it with concentrated fire so he must risk the assassin or forgo the move. It's like playing someone at Go or Chess in that sense.

Im still having trouble understanding what makes a list fluffly, the fact that i dont abuse the poorly written game mechanics?

How are you suppose to respond to this sort of list without tailoring.

Amount of denialism in this thread is mind-boggling.

The list in question is basically min-maxing the effect of few rules for maximum benefit.

My list I have run, and other lists I have been planning to run after getting and making the models would seriously struggle against this list, especially the Culexus assassins. I play CSM. If I would go all-in with the suggested flamer spam I might end up with a list that can beat this list, but then I lose to even most basic TAC lists with even minimum armor.

I don't think the person advocating for flamer spam and claiming this is easily countered has really sat down and done the math. Single Culexus costs exactly the same amount as CSM 5 man squad with flamer and combi-flamer while the said CSM squad remains infinitely more easy to remove than a single Culexus. Going for more elite does not work, those assassins excel against high cost elite units. Terminator deep-strike does not work, the unit is too expensive versus the theoretical damage it can make, and then after that single Culexus can easily chomp through the terminators in melee.

Huge cultist MSU spam and just playing objectives might work, but who seriously wants to play list like that? And then you will lose to most TAC lists as everyone is trying to go for some amount of horde control and cultists are one of the easiest hordes to remove because CSM has no access to commissars and morale mitigation other than expensive dark apostle, but getting these will make you lose to assassin list again as they can so easily shoot them from far away and then the points are away from more cultists.

Bottom line, this assassin list is disgustingly broken, not fun to play against, not fluffy. It's just typical WAAC players finding the borderline broken rules and interactions and min-maxing those.

Only good thing about this list is the fact that it was made, and will hopefully lead it into some errata regarding the character targeting rules, as has been suggested by several people in here and other places. Characters should not be able screen other characters, which as a ruling should make sense to any person. I'm not the biggest fan of 0-1 limitations, as it would still leave stupid glitches available to be used in specific situations, mostly because those Culexus are so difficult to remove.

A bit late to the party here, but I can't see what's wrong with this list. Having said that I can't see how it's battle forged, unless the Dreads are somehow HQ choices, which I may very well have missed somewhere in the book.

And is it a 2000pt list?

Cheers

Andrew

Ghorgul wrote:
Amount of denialism in this thread is mind-boggling.

The list in question is basically min-maxing the effect of few rules for maximum benefit.

My list I have run, and other lists I have been planning to run after getting and making the models would seriously struggle against this list, especially the Culexus assassins. I play CSM. If I would go all-in with the suggested flamer spam I might end up with a list that can beat this list, but then I lose to even most basic TAC lists with even minimum armor.

I don't think the person advocating for flamer spam and claiming this is easily countered has really sat down and done the math. Single Culexus costs exactly the same amount as CSM 5 man squad with flamer and combi-flamer while the said CSM squad remains infinitely more easy to remove than a single Culexus. Going for more elite does not work, those assassins excel against high cost elite units. Terminator deep-strike does not work, the unit is too expensive versus the theoretical damage it can make, and then after that single Culexus can easily chomp through the terminators in melee.

Huge cultist MSU spam and just playing objectives might work, but who seriously wants to play list like that? And then you will lose to most TAC lists as everyone is trying to go for some amount of horde control and cultists are one of the easiest hordes to remove because CSM has no access to commissars and morale mitigation other than expensive dark apostle, but getting these will make you lose to assassin list again as they can so easily shoot them from far away and then the points are away from more cultists.

Bottom line, this assassin list is disgustingly broken, not fun to play against, not fluffy. It's just typical WAAC players finding the borderline broken rules and interactions and min-maxing those.

Only good thing about this list is the fact that it was made, and will hopefully lead it into some errata regarding the character targeting rules, as has been suggested by several people in here and other places. Characters should not be able screen other characters, which as a ruling should make sense to any person. I'm not the biggest fan of 0-1 limitations, as it would still leave stupid glitches available to be used in specific situations, mostly because those Culexus are so difficult to remove.

Those problems are so big only in local play. Yeah, lets face it, anyone who brings this to your local game club is not signing for gentleman's game. This is worst kind of powergaming and tryharding. Fun ruining.

In tournaments? We have to see. It may or may not be broken. Meta will verify. Al armies have something to dismantle culexuses, and after that this list is pretty vulnerable. You just have to eliminate assassins quickly enough. Imperium have pretty easy time doing that, CSM marines can ally with demons and new codexes are on the way, xenos are bit vulnerable but sill have some options to deal with it.
We gona see less TAC lists, since you have expect this kind of list on tournaments and have something to counter it. We will either have mix of Cul-builds, TAC build and semi-tac build, or straight Cul and semi-TAC builds.
Will this Cull build destroy meta? Maybe. To early to judge for sure. It is not fun to play with and against, but competitive is wining first and fun second.

But honestly, if some jerk brings this to casual Friday games, feel no shame, use whatever op stuff you have and abuse rules.

Ghorgul wrote:
Amount of denialism in this thread is mind-boggling.

The list in question is basically min-maxing the effect of few rules for maximum benefit.

My list I have run, and other lists I have been planning to run after getting and making the models would seriously struggle against this list, especially the Culexus assassins. I play CSM. If I would go all-in with the suggested flamer spam I might end up with a list that can beat this list, but then I lose to even most basic TAC lists with even minimum armor.

I don't think the person advocating for flamer spam and claiming this is easily countered has really sat down and done the math. Single Culexus costs exactly the same amount as CSM 5 man squad with flamer and combi-flamer while the said CSM squad remains infinitely more easy to remove than a single Culexus. Going for more elite does not work, those assassins excel against high cost elite units. Terminator deep-strike does not work, the unit is too expensive versus the theoretical damage it can make, and then after that single Culexus can easily chomp through the terminators in melee.

Huge cultist MSU spam and just playing objectives might work, but who seriously wants to play list like that? And then you will lose to most TAC lists as everyone is trying to go for some amount of horde control and cultists are one of the easiest hordes to remove because CSM has no access to commissars and morale mitigation other than expensive dark apostle, but getting these will make you lose to assassin list again as they can so easily shoot them from far away and then the points are away from more cultists.

Bottom line, this assassin list is disgustingly broken, not fun to play against, not fluffy. It's just typical WAAC players finding the borderline broken rules and interactions and min-maxing those.

Only good thing about this list is the fact that it was made, and will hopefully lead it into some errata regarding the character targeting rules, as has been suggested by several people in here and other places. Characters should not be able screen other characters, which as a ruling should make sense to any person. I'm not the biggest fan of 0-1 limitations, as it would still leave stupid glitches available to be used in specific situations, mostly because those Culexus are so difficult to remove.

I just don't see how this list could be that good, it has some shenangian stuff going on that attempts to control how the game flows rather than giving control over to you but it would fail hard in any mission: Objective games the list doesn't have any troops and doesn't have the fire power to take out large units so it would fail there and each model is it's own unit so kill points would see it lose too.

I think this would be quite a fun list that punishes armies that don't move at all during games but mobile CQC armies would steam roller such a list. I know my Zerker list could quite happily plow straight through the Culexus' and through most of the other assassins. My Termicide squad could drop in and pop a couple more assassins or maybe even a dreadnought. This list is a hard counter to gunline armies that wipe out everything before it gets to them but more well rounded armies will have an even match and CQC only armies will have a field day.

The firepower is deceptively high. As is the survivability. 10 WE berzerkers can't expect to kill one culexus assassin on the charge. Don't dismiss this concept without looking into the factors.