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I agree that characters should not screen (ie count as closest unit). This totally fixes this list and prevents further character abuse.

Not that it is unbeatable by any well built list that isn't super elite. I wouldn't change my Tyranids list at all vs this and I expect I would crush it.

Timeshadow wrote:
I agree that characters should not screen (ie count as closest unit). This totally fixes this list and prevents further character abuse.

Not that it is unbeatable by any well built list that isn't super elite. I wouldn't change my Tyranids list at all vs this and I expect I would crush it.

You probably would. This list is really hard countered by a lot of stuff out there. It may work against the Girlyman parking lot, though.

I think character rules need some errata in general. You've got a lot of players spamming them as if they were regular troops. (Tau comes to mind...)

Suzuteo wrote:
I think character rules need some errata in general. You've got a lot of players spamming them as if they were regular troops. (Tau comes to mind...)

I agree, they need some work. Yesterday I had a game where all my opponent had on the board was a Daemon Prince and Typhus on 1 wound, plus a unit of Poxwalkers in melee with a Tactical Squad. My two full squads of Devastators couldn't shoot at them though, and ended up not being able to shoot at all since the Poxwalkers were .5" closer engaging my Tactical Squad. Situations like that, and lists like this one go to show that the rules for targeting characters have some pretty wonky rules interractions.

 buddha wrote:
Simplistic fix would actually just to make assassin's Unique in matched play but I digress.

These people would just move on to malefic lord spam then. Personally I would make the assassins unique and fix the character rules so characters can't screen for characters.

Well, if we have to fix character targeting, I would recommend that it either be LOS-based or sort of like a Look Out Sir!:

1) If a target character's model is at least 25% obscured from the point of view of at least one firer in a unit by a non-character Infantry model, you must target that non-character model's unit instead.

2) If your opponent targets one of your characters during the Shooting phase, you may substitute a non-character Infantry unit within 3" of that character as the target instead.

This list is beat by a horde style, melee centric army. It's incredible good versus other lists, but lacks the volume to deal with mass units. Speed and CC will beat the list. You can run past Culexus assassins and just charge the other characters. Flyers are also incredibly good since they are relying on the charge and can't charge flyers.

It is an incredibly unfun list to play and takes advantage of rules loopholes but is beatable. It's just unfortunate that you are pretty much forced to tailor a list to beat it.

Flamers..... lots of flamers.

sossen wrote:
The firepower is deceptively high. As is the survivability. 10 WE berzerkers can't expect to kill one culexus assassin on the charge. Don't dismiss this concept without looking into the factors.

Yes this is quite true Culexus Assassin would take 120 shots by marines to kill.

From crunching some numbers I would say the Culexus Assassin should weigh in at about 150 points (not counting what it does to Psykers).
This estimation mainly stems form the 6+ to hit.

Noting the other assassin are more equitably priced assuming you are basically taking them as troops (and not kill characters).

The character shooting rule would not be such a issue if the Culexus Assassin were not so power full for the points or limited in some other way.

The problem with this list is that everyone who faced it was caught with their pants down, because no one expected it. Now that the list is out in the open its pretty easy to be prepared for it.

The fix is: Have a manly conversation with your opponent about what kind of game you want to play. If you want to play super competitive and let him play a bunch of characters by abusing a rule, then you consent to that. If you don't, don't play that game.

If you want to be able to beat tournaments, I hear that the real trouble with this list is against horde armies, like Conscript spam, because lasguns can hurt anything now, and if you bring enough, you'll roll enough 6's to kill your opponent's assassins no problem.

vaurapung wrote:

As for taking a tailored list against the guy, why cant we just stop these kind of armies at the list building stage of a tournament. None of us have had fun because our armies cant opperate, its one thing to fork an opponent with 3 serpents and 3 lords so they have to pick the bigger threat and another to force your opponants shooting options.

But doesn't free shooting force you opponent's army choice to begin with? If shooting wasn't so good there wouldn't be such a list skewed towards protection vs long-ranged low mobility shooting. Literally any mellee army would have no problems vs assassin spam. So, why should we ban assassins once again? Because you need to tweak your list a bit and either get some mellee, deepstrike or at least flamers and not just run a girlyman parking lot?

I'd be interested in running my Calgar led First Company list against it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It is a silly list though.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Flamers..... lots of flamers.

That's exactly what I've thought about this. I'm going to field so many burna boys in trukks and wagons.

Hey everyone. Happened to see this thread and thought I would chime in a bit.

The army the OP is asking questions about how to beat is mine and I thought I would answer some questions about it.

1. The game we played was the day before a local tournament and he said he wanted to try out against the list. So it was effectively tournament practice.

2. In casual play I offer to waive the character rule for my army to make a more fun game and freely announce what I am bringing so people can set up to counter.

3. Sorry about the unpainted status I don't paint myself and right now my painter has his hands full with my Imperial Knights and Elysians. (Is also why I am bringing Assassins as Its the only army I have available atm)

If you have any specific questions of me feel free to ask.

 mrhappyface wrote:

Not really though, it doesn't have the mobility of the star lists, doesn't have the damage output of stars, CQC completely ignores it's buffs ...

I keep seeing this. The Culexus is hit on 6+ in shooting AND close combat. So World Eaters Berzerkers with 66 attacks on the charge would hit just... 11 times. With S6 attacks, would wound just... 8 times. With 4++ saves, the assassin would take just... 4 wounds. And has 5 wounds. So, yeah, maybe not as easy as you seem to think.

dadx6 wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

Not really though, it doesn't have the mobility of the star lists, doesn't have the damage output of stars, CQC completely ignores it's buffs ...

I keep seeing this. The Culexus is hit on 6+ in shooting AND close combat. So World Eaters Berzerkers with 66 attacks on the charge would hit just... 11 times. With S6 attacks, would wound just... 8 times. With 4++ saves, the assassin would take just... 4 wounds. And has 5 wounds. So, yeah, maybe not as easy as you seem to think.

5 man units of Zerkers with a Dark Apostle aura and an Exalted Champion aura do over 5 wounds to Culexus assassins and in any WE list you are looking at 3+ units of Zerkers so expect to see assassins dropping left and right.

Khadorstompy wrote:
If you have any specific questions of me feel free to ask.

First and foremost I'd like to know what the lumpy thing center-left is.

Second, someone mentioned you healing wounds with this list, was that accurate? If so, how?

 Captain Joystick wrote:

Khadorstompy wrote:
If you have any specific questions of me feel free to ask.

First and foremost I'd like to know what the lumpy thing center-left is.

Second, someone mentioned you healing wounds with this list, was that accurate? If so, how?

1. I think your referring to the eversor assassin from the Box set that as a cinematic pose of running on a half-pipe.

2. No I never healed any wounds. (Except on Celestine's revive and self-healing.)

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Flamers..... lots of flamers.

You have the kill the clux with fire

lots of it.

I got stuck in combat with one for over 4 turns

absolutely aggravating. but otherwise the others are really easy to kill with weight of fire.

thats pretty much the only issue.

easy fix to this issue all together is to just make assassins unique.

dadx6 wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

Not really though, it doesn't have the mobility of the star lists, doesn't have the damage output of stars, CQC completely ignores it's buffs ...

I keep seeing this. The Culexus is hit on 6+ in shooting AND close combat. So World Eaters Berzerkers with 66 attacks on the charge would hit just... 11 times. With S6 attacks, would wound just... 8 times. With 4++ saves, the assassin would take just... 4 wounds. And has 5 wounds. So, yeah, maybe not as easy as you seem to think.

A squad of Ork Boyz will do 2.5 wounds to a culexus by shooting, and 3.75 in CC. With a banner nob that rises to 7.5 wounds in CC. But more importantly: Both the zerkers and Boyz has the option of just walking or charging past the culexus and attacking whatever is behind. With a CC unit you don't need to attack the culexus in order to target whatever they are screening.