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It seems like proportion would matter if "broken units" are the justification for the ban.

After all, if the game is going to be just as imbalanced without FW as with, what's the point of banning it? Does it actually achieve anything?

Very little really, it would in theory produce a different meta. That is about it. I think the only reason right now to consider a ban is if FW does not address its broken units/rules in a timely manner. To me that is the biggest possible problem.

Now this assumes

1.) The units are prevalent in the meta
2.) GW is doing a good job of addressing their own problems.

failing either of these a FW ban probably isn't a huge deal.

Ghorgul wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Ghorgul wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

"Very nice results"
How far did Drop Pods make it again?

Well Reece managed to beat the AM player who placed fourth, and that was that players only loss in whole tournament. And reading his report this was mostly thanks to his drop pod.
Drop pods by themselves didn't win anything, and they shouldn't. So do you think that anything good/useable needs to be spammable? So if something fails 'spammability' test, it's not good unit?

You didn't answer my question. You avoided it.

I did answer the question:

Ghorgul wrote:Well Reece managed to beat the AM player who placed fourth, and that was that players only loss in whole tournament. And reading his report this was mostly thanks to his drop pod.
Drop pods by themselves didn't win anything, and they shouldn't. So do you think that anything good/useable needs to be spammable? So if something fails 'spammability' test, it's not good unit?

Against this fourth placed AM he deployed the Multi-meltas with Drop Pod to destroy or heavily damage 1-2 Xiphons. Exact specifics were not mentioned in his report.

But please do allow me be more specific as normal english sentence did not go through to you. And you clearly didn't make the effort to go read Reece's report I was referring to.
So how did Reece find success with his Drop Pod? This is coming from reading his 2 reports he wrote on Frontlinegaming. Atleast in 2 matches he used the Drop Pod to deploy his Multi-melta Devastators to make alpha/beta-strike against enemy vehicles with quite good effect. He didn't write in his post-analysis of his list or matches that he was dissappointed with their performance, so I am somewhat safe to argue that he was satisfied with them.

Also I added some bolding for you to be able to catch the main points.

I asked for how many topping lists had Drop Pods, not battle reports.

Probably a good way to judge how responsive FW will be is see how they update the various FW flavors of guard after the AM codex drops. Assuming the AM codex does make heavy changes, not a given I admit.

SilverAlien wrote:
Probably a good way to judge how responsive FW will be is see how they update the various FW flavors of guard after the AM codex drops. Assuming the AM codex does make heavy changes, not a given I admit.

Somewhat, it will also depend on how they handle things between releases (same with GW). I mean they haven't really updated their marine stuff much after the marine release.

HuskyWarhammer wrote:
The Harlequin/Ynnari list was kind of neat, had a non-spam mix of all 4 Eldar factions.

Battalion

Shadowseer
Troupe Master – embrace/fusion pistol
Troupe Master – embrace/fusion pistol
2×5 Troupes – 5 embraces/4 fusion pistols
2×5 Troupes – 5 embraces
Solitaire
4x Starweavers

Spearhead

Yncarne – Warlord
2×3 Razorwing flocks
2x Warwalkers – double bright lances
1x Warwalker – double shuriken cannon

Unless i'm doing the math wrong this is like 1850 points...?

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
This is so disappointing it makes me want to wretch. This isn't a Grey Knights list. It has a freaking AM Brigade. That isn't GK. A patrol of GK under 600 points DOESN'T MAKE YOUR ARMY GREY KNIGHTS, FFS.

Ironically however, it's a turbo-fluffy list.

A small, elite strike force of Marines bolstered by a ton of fodder is far fluffier then how the individual codices for each chapter would have you believe.

I very much agree with this. Imo the Grey Knights are weird trying to function as a stand alone army in the first place.
...


But back to some the lists, wtf are Elysian Snipers?

 Marmatag wrote:

HuskyWarhammer wrote:
The Harlequin/Ynnari list was kind of neat, had a non-spam mix of all 4 Eldar factions.

Battalion

Shadowseer
Troupe Master – embrace/fusion pistol
Troupe Master – embrace/fusion pistol
2×5 Troupes – 5 embraces/4 fusion pistols
2×5 Troupes – 5 embraces
Solitaire
4x Starweavers

Spearhead

Yncarne – Warlord
2×3 Razorwing flocks
2x Warwalkers – double bright lances
1x Warwalker – double shuriken cannon

Unless i'm doing the math wrong this is like 1850 points...?

No, its actually 2001pts, so IDK what he dropped, im guessing 1 embrace somewhere.
Edit: ALso each Warwalker is its own unit so he gets the CP from Spearhead (if that wasnt clear)

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

HuskyWarhammer wrote:
The Harlequin/Ynnari list was kind of neat, had a non-spam mix of all 4 Eldar factions.

Battalion

Shadowseer
Troupe Master – embrace/fusion pistol
Troupe Master – embrace/fusion pistol
2×5 Troupes – 5 embraces/4 fusion pistols
2×5 Troupes – 5 embraces
Solitaire
4x Starweavers

Spearhead

Yncarne – Warlord
2×3 Razorwing flocks
2x Warwalkers – double bright lances
1x Warwalker – double shuriken cannon

Unless i'm doing the math wrong this is like 1850 points...?

No, its actually 2001pts, so IDK what he dropped, im guessing 1 embrace somewhere.
Edit: ALso each Warwalker is its own unit so he gets the CP from Spearhead (if that wasnt clear)

Fixed it. Did it in battlescribe. It's 1995 points on the nose.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I asked for how many topping lists had Drop Pods, not battle reports.

You claimed drop pod is complete garbage, I showed you example of list that went 4-2 on tournament using 1 Drop Pod in list. The said list took 1 game of player who placed 4th, and 2 losses were against players who placed 8th ('Grey Knights' with Elysians and Celestine), and 13th ("Alpha Legion" with 2 Fire raptors, Magnus etc.)

If the drop pod(s) were consistently in top lists, we should be arguing whether the unit is OP. Unit however can be good without consistently showing up in top placements, because that is a sign of good balance.
Alternatively, if drop pod was 'complete garbage', Reece's list shouldn't have performed as well as it did, he did after all have 1/20th of his list filled by this so called complete garbage.

Ghorgul wrote:
Alternatively, if drop pod was 'complete garbage', Reece's list shouldn't have performed as well as it did

That's a bit of a logical stretch. I wouldn't consider finishing 74th to be performing well.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

HuskyWarhammer wrote:
The Harlequin/Ynnari list was kind of neat, had a non-spam mix of all 4 Eldar factions.

Battalion

Shadowseer
Troupe Master – embrace/fusion pistol
Troupe Master – embrace/fusion pistol
2×5 Troupes – 5 embraces/4 fusion pistols
2×5 Troupes – 5 embraces
Solitaire
4x Starweavers

Spearhead

Yncarne – Warlord
2×3 Razorwing flocks
2x Warwalkers – double bright lances
1x Warwalker – double shuriken cannon

Unless i'm doing the math wrong this is like 1850 points...?

No, its actually 2001pts, so IDK what he dropped, im guessing 1 embrace somewhere.
Edit: ALso each Warwalker is its own unit so he gets the CP from Spearhead (if that wasnt clear)

Fixed it. Did it in battlescribe. It's 1995 points on the nose.

I did it in BS just now also... why is it so far off? did you not update yours? everything seems to be correct.

As far as it being non-spammy, well I guess it's pretty easy to not spam when you're spending 2000 points on 34 models.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

HuskyWarhammer wrote:
The Harlequin/Ynnari list was kind of neat, had a non-spam mix of all 4 Eldar factions.

Battalion

Shadowseer
Troupe Master – embrace/fusion pistol
Troupe Master – embrace/fusion pistol
2×5 Troupes – 5 embraces/4 fusion pistols
2×5 Troupes – 5 embraces
Solitaire
4x Starweavers

Spearhead

Yncarne – Warlord
2×3 Razorwing flocks
2x Warwalkers – double bright lances
1x Warwalker – double shuriken cannon

Unless i'm doing the math wrong this is like 1850 points...?

No, its actually 2001pts, so IDK what he dropped, im guessing 1 embrace somewhere.
Edit: ALso each Warwalker is its own unit so he gets the CP from Spearhead (if that wasnt clear)

Fixed it. Did it in battlescribe. It's 1995 points on the nose.

I did it in BS just now also... why is it so far off? did you not update yours? everything seems to be correct.

The mistake i was making, is that he only has 4 fusion pistols in the squads of 5, not 5. That brings the cost down below 2k.

According to the article Reece put up on front line gaming, chapter approved will cover points balance changes for GW and Forgeworld!

Breng77 wrote:
Except that Fire Raptors are worse on the points/effectivity scale than Storm Ravens... so no.

Then why do I see plenty of people running them?

See if you want to prove your point that last part is the key. If GW writes 3x the rules, but creates 8x the problems, then your point is made. But if GW has say 300 units and FW has 100 units, and you say. Well GW has 10 broken things and FW only has 4, so GW is worse than FW. When factually FW has a higher proportion of broken units.

That is all I was originally saying that your statement that GW has more broken units is a meaningless statistic by itself.

Also nice that you ignore all the parts where I pick apart your "if ETC guys don't take it, it must not be good" FW argument. I also never said RW flocks were not good, but you said "show me tournament results where X did well, we need proof." RW flocks don't have high placement at a ton tournaments, just inclusion in a ton of ETC lists which could be due to the need to include different factions (it isn't but it could be)

As for the Fire Raptor. Plenty of people own some FW, not many own say 5 of the same model from FW.

You speak out both sides of your mouth on one hand you say. "Show me the tournament lists with X" and on the other you say "you can tell things are broken just by looking at the rules." Which one is it?

When you say things like "I think FW might have been broken in 5th, I never said that I said It was largely banned in 5th, so you trying to compare tournament results from 5th is largely meaningless.

I've already said my issues with FW in this edition and balance isn't the major one they are

1.) I feel like the write rules for a different scale game than basic GW rules.

2.) I'm concerned with how they will respond to balance issues, assuming GW continues to address their own, and assuming the GW fixes are meaningful.

#2 may not be an issue.

 Marmatag wrote:

Ghorgul wrote:
Alternatively, if drop pod was 'complete garbage', Reece's list shouldn't have performed as well as it did

That's a bit of a logical stretch. I wouldn't consider finishing 74th to be performing well.

From what i gather, Reece dropped out after the first 6 games, "to enjoy the rest of the con" - as a result, anyone that played all 8 games would prob be placed close to/above him in the rankings by nature of points scored overall?

Reece went 4-2 in the 6 games, with the 2 losses against very strong lists - though they were said to be "close" games with a couple of mistakes being what caused the result.

Based on that, you could argue that a drop pod -isn't- a hindrance in a competitive environment, and, if used well, can be a benefit.

The Battle for Salvation GT coming this October Columbus day weekend
www.battleforsalvation.com will be announcing its finalized format in the next day. You can expect ITC restrictions of no more than 31 PL models and a BFS restriction on FW of 0-1 "UNITS" unique.

We have been asked to ban FW...we are not.
We have been asked to keep FW unrestricted...we are not.

Take your FW units and have fun but you cant spam them.

- A unit of 3 Earthshakers... cool. Not 12 of them
- A unit of Elysian Snipers and a unit of Elysian command squad...cool just not 6 of each.
- A Malific Lord...sure...just not 13 of them
- A Decimator..yup .. not 7 of them shooting possibly up to 12 Mortal wound shots.

Is this totally fair ? maybe not
Is it going to fix everything..nah
Will everyone be happy..doubt it.

But the game as of now has its issues..at least GW has made some effort to fix things. FW on the other hand hasnt and for the most part FW stuff is fine.. its the bad stuff that gets added to make things even worse.

peace

I don't want to keep up the fighting, but it's worth noting that the 0-1 unique restriction on FW units means I won't come to Battle for Salvation, even if I wanted to (which I do, or at least did).

Some of us have spent a ton of money on awesome Forge World units, because we love the fluff or the way they look, and not getting to use them simply because people are upset about a few unrelated units is just upsetting and nonsensical, imo.

It's like banning all models with the Eldar keyword just because Scatterbikes were OP.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I don't want to keep up the fighting, but it's worth noting that the 0-1 unique restriction on FW units means I won't come to Battle for Salvation, even if I wanted to (which I do, or at least did).

Some of us have spent a ton of money on awesome Forge World units, because we love the fluff or the way they look, and not getting to use them simply because people are upset about a few unrelated units is just upsetting and nonsensical, imo.

It's like banning all models with the Eldar keyword just because Scatterbikes were OP.

fair enough Unit..
We have a number of players also threatening to not attend if we "dont ban FW"

so im sure this might not appease them as well.

We think its a fair compromise.

Ghorgul wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I asked for how many topping lists had Drop Pods, not battle reports.

You claimed drop pod is complete garbage, I showed you example of list that went 4-2 on tournament using 1 Drop Pod in list. The said list took 1 game of player who placed 4th, and 2 losses were against players who placed 8th ('Grey Knights' with Elysians and Celestine), and 13th ("Alpha Legion" with 2 Fire raptors, Magnus etc.)

If the drop pod(s) were consistently in top lists, we should be arguing whether the unit is OP. Unit however can be good without consistently showing up in top placements, because that is a sign of good balance.
Alternatively, if drop pod was 'complete garbage', Reece's list shouldn't have performed as well as it did, he did after all have 1/20th of his list filled by this so called complete garbage.

You're still not telling me what the highest topping list with a Pod is, which leads straight to a term we in the Fire Emblem community use, which is PEDM: Personal Experience Doesn't Matter. You can be anecdotal all you want, but we look at the math of the unit/character and can determine its usefulness. I didn't see Reece in the top 30 and I looked twice.

However, regardless of that, the Pod isn't good anymore. Hell, it was barely good to begin with to anybody outside those that never fought them before. Now they're 100 points? One of the few worthless units in the codex.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You're still not telling me what the highest topping list with a Pod is, which leads straight to a term we in the Fire Emblem community use, which is PEDM: Personal Experience Doesn't Matter. You can be anecdotal all you want, but we look at the math of the unit/character and can determine its usefulness. I didn't see Reece in the top 30 and I looked twice.

However, regardless of that, the Pod isn't good anymore. Hell, it was barely good to begin with to anybody outside those that never fought them before. Now they're 100 points? One of the few worthless units in the codex.

You can keep on dreaming your stuff about what is good and bad. I applied your logic of not making it to Top 30, and following your 'procedure' Space Marine units such as Rhino, Land Raider, Predator are 'complete garbage' - none of those made it to Top 30.

And tbh I dont understand what obsession you have for unit having to place Top in order to be good. I told you, Reece used Drop Pod for good effect in this Tournament, going 4-2 (skipping last 2 games), of which 1 victory was over the player who placed 4th (That players only loss) and then losses were to players who placed 8th and 13th. There is nothing anecdotal about this. His Drop Pod performed well.

Ghorgul wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You're still not telling me what the highest topping list with a Pod is, which leads straight to a term we in the Fire Emblem community use, which is PEDM: Personal Experience Doesn't Matter. You can be anecdotal all you want, but we look at the math of the unit/character and can determine its usefulness. I didn't see Reece in the top 30 and I looked twice.

However, regardless of that, the Pod isn't good anymore. Hell, it was barely good to begin with to anybody outside those that never fought them before. Now they're 100 points? One of the few worthless units in the codex.

You can keep on dreaming your stuff about what is good and bad. I applied your logic of not making it to Top 30, and following your 'procedure' Space Marine units such as Rhino, Land Raider, Predator are 'complete garbage' - none of those made it to Top 30.

And tbh I dont understand what obsession you have for unit having to place Top in order to be good. I told you, Reece used Drop Pod for good effect in this Tournament, going 4-2 (skipping last 2 games), of which 1 victory was over the player who placed 4th (That players only loss) and then losses were to players who placed 8th and 13th. There is nothing anecdotal about this. His Drop Pod performed well.

You're using one person for your evidence, and a person that dropped out so didn't even complete all his games. Why are you using this particular instance as your anecdote?

 zedsdead wrote:
The Battle for Salvation GT coming this October Columbus day weekend
www.battleforsalvation.com will be announcing its finalized format in the next day. You can expect ITC restrictions of no more than 31 PL models and a BFS restriction on FW of 0-1 units unique.

We have been asked to ban FW...we are not.
We have been asked to keep FW unrestricted...we are not.

Take your FW units and have fun but you cant spam them.

- A unit of 3 Earthshakers... cool. Not 12 of them
- A unit of Elysian Snipers and a unit of Elysian command squad...cool just not 6 of each.
- A Malific Lord...sure...just not 13 of them
- A Decimator..yup .. not 7 of them shooting possibly up to 12 Mortal wound shots.

Is this totally fair ? maybe not
Is it going to fix everything..nah
Will everyone be happy..doubt it.

But the game as of now has its issues..at least GW has made some effort to fix things. FW on the other hand hasnt and for the most part FW stuff is fine.. its the bad stuff that gets added to make things even worse.

peace

I tip my hat to you for doing this.

I can imagine this has to be a very difficult thing for someone organizing a tournament. People will always be upset. I'm in the "ban Forgeworld completely" camp, but I can definitely appreciate the reduction in spam of what is clearly undercosted and OP units.

 Marmatag wrote:

 zedsdead wrote:
The Battle for Salvation GT coming this October Columbus day weekend
www.battleforsalvation.com will be announcing its finalized format in the next day. You can expect ITC restrictions of no more than 31 PL models and a BFS restriction on FW of 0-1 units unique.

We have been asked to ban FW...we are not.
We have been asked to keep FW unrestricted...we are not.

Take your FW units and have fun but you cant spam them.

- A unit of 3 Earthshakers... cool. Not 12 of them
- A unit of Elysian Snipers and a unit of Elysian command squad...cool just not 6 of each.
- A Malific Lord...sure...just not 13 of them
- A Decimator..yup .. not 7 of them shooting possibly up to 12 Mortal wound shots.

Is this totally fair ? maybe not
Is it going to fix everything..nah
Will everyone be happy..doubt it.

But the game as of now has its issues..at least GW has made some effort to fix things. FW on the other hand hasnt and for the most part FW stuff is fine.. its the bad stuff that gets added to make things even worse.

peace

I tip my hat to you for doing this.

I can imagine this has to be a very difficult thing for someone organizing a tournament. People will always be upset. I'm in the "ban Forgeworld completely" camp, but I can definitely appreciate the reduction in spam of what is clearly undercosted and OP units.

Aye, pretty bold move.

 Byte wrote:


Aye, pretty bold move.

Yes.

And totally necessary. The current meta is being defined by Forgeworld units.

Half and half, really, if Elysians were that crushingly OP they wouldn't roll alongside Celestine and Conscripts. And since apparently Scions are that bad, they'll end up replacing Elysians in tourneys where the latter can't be spammed.

It's a bold move, but probably not the right one in the long run. Still, your tourney, your rules. Best of luck and hope you have fun!

 Marmatag wrote:

 Byte wrote:


Aye, pretty bold move.

Yes.

And totally necessary. The current meta is being defined by Forgeworld units.

The current meta is being defined by AM right now. The army as a whole is too points efficient for the damage output they can generate. Besides the AM army, there are a few outliers like Primarchs, but by and far AM is dominating the meta. This really has nothing to do with FW. There aren't any FW units that are being spammed continuously that it shows a decided problem. Once the AM codex is released and they get knocked down a notch, the meta will change. I can't see any justification of saying FW is to blame through any measurable amount of data. Data does show that AM is the biggest problem as a whole by being too efficient for their points.