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Wow, the current meta is absolutely not being defined by FW right now...

The Elysians were a spoiler but their roles in any of those lists could've been filled with units from the Index with only a small difference in performance.

If you're gonna ban FW, you HAVE TO ban Guilliman, Celestine, conscripts, mortar spam and flyer spam, psyker spam, taurox spam, assassin spam etc etc. The community is so ridiculous sometimes I swear.

I'll even take it a bit further than saying it's just AM. Imperial units as a whole are problematic primarily because you have such a huge pool of resources to pull from and make an army. When you have Space Marines, AM, Sisters, and others to pick the best units from, you are going to get a much higher level of efficiency than something like Necrons, Eldar, or Nids. Armies like that merely don't have the depth of units to choose from. Ynnari is a pretty decent army primarily because you are taking your pick from three separate armies and combining them. This is multiplied when you go Imperial and have a huge number more units to choose the best of the best from.

I say we ban everything in 40k except Tactical Marines with Bolters! Perfect balance for everyone, except the person with cheesy dice. Ban dice.

"Where are the dice?"
"Daddy says dice are wicked."
"We just move one space at a time. It's less fun that way."

We didn't ban GW units from tournaments when knights were destroying the game. We didn't ban GW units from tournaments when summoning was destroying the game, when re-rollable 2+ invulns were destroying the game, when allies were destroying the game, when Riptides were destroying the game, when formations were destroying the game, when flyers were destroying the game, when invisibility was destroying the game. Guilliman, conscripts and certain flyers are destroying the game RIGHT NOW and still no one is suggesting banning Games Workshop units from tournaments.

The only people who advocate for banning FW wholesale are grognard fools who got into the game back when FW wasn't allowed in 90% of games and tounys, and want to "go back to the good old days".

 BlaxicanX wrote:
We didn't ban GW units from tournaments when knights were destroying the game. We didn't ban GW units from tournaments when summoning was destroying the game, when re-rollable 2+ invulns were destroying the game, when allies we're destroying the game, when Riptides were destroying the game, when formations were destroying the game, when flyers were destroying the game, when invisibility was destroying the game. Guilliman, conscripts and certain flyers are destroying the game RIGHT NOW and still no one is suggesting banning Games Workshop units from tournaments.

The only people who advocate for banning FW wholesale are grognard fools who got into the game back when FW wasn't allowed in 90% of games and tounys, and want to "go back to the good old days".

Nailed it.

Ban All GW models from 40k tournaments! That''ll learn em!

But if we don't put all the blame in Forgeworld using them as a scapegoat in a infantile idealization that theres a simple solution to a much bigger problem, what are we gonna do?!

Ask for actual re-balancing from GW and FW?

I would absolutely skip an event where folks voted to ban FW, not just because I couldn't bring my DKOK, but because I just don't want to play with those people, and it's sure to be a crap time.

We lost that crowd to warmachine and kings of war before, apparently the popularity of 8th has brought them back.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

The only people who advocate for banning FW wholesale are grognard fools who got into the game back when FW wasn't allowed in 90% of games and tounys, and want to "go back to the good old days".

This guy has it correct and directly called you guys out on your crap.

Though I don't agree Knights destroyed the game because they really didn't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gunzhard wrote:
Wow current meta is absolutely not being defined by FW right now...

The Elysians were a spoiler but their roles in any of those lists could've been filled with units from the Index with only a small difference in performance.

If you're gonna ban FW, you HAVE TO ban Guilliman, Celestine, conscripts, mortar spam and flyer spam, psyker spam, taurox spam, assassin spam etc etc. The community is so ridiculous sometimes I swear.

Replace the Elysians with Scions and Ratlings and you'll get exactly the same performance. Elysians look cool though.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

The only people who advocate for banning FW wholesale are grognard fools who got into the game back when FW wasn't allowed in 90% of games and tounys, and want to "go back to the good old days".

This guy has it correct and directly called you guys out on your crap.

Though I don't agree Knights destroyed the game because they really didn't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gunzhard wrote:
Wow current meta is absolutely not being defined by FW right now...

The Elysians were a spoiler but their roles in any of those lists could've been filled with units from the Index with only a small difference in performance.

If you're gonna ban FW, you HAVE TO ban Guilliman, Celestine, conscripts, mortar spam and flyer spam, psyker spam, taurox spam, assassin spam etc etc. The community is so ridiculous sometimes I swear.

Replace the Elysians with Scions and Ratlings and you'll get exactly the same performance. Elysians look cool though.

The FW hate is growing root. Isn't it kind of understood high level players prefer min/max. I mean, "surprise"!?

Locally, all Forgeworld models are banned from tournaments and only one LoW model is allowed per army.
Forgeworld is not banned because of power, but because of the lack of accessibility people have to the models and rules. Many feel it's a pay to win thing. I'm all for limiting the LoW choices to 1.

Accessibility is pretty much the same for everyone. Order online or buy at a convention.

 SideshowLucifer wrote:

Forgeworld is not banned because of power, but because of the lack of accessibility people have to the models and rules.

Not trying to be mean but this is a really strange response. What do we have here. a 3rd world situation?

 SideshowLucifer wrote:
Locally, all Forgeworld models are banned from tournaments and only one LoW model is allowed per army.
Forgeworld is not banned because of power, but because of the lack of accessibility people have to the models and rules. Many feel it's a pay to win thing. I'm all for limiting the LoW choices to 1.

I've ordered from their website just fine. What's this lack of accessibility argument really coming from?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 SideshowLucifer wrote:
Locally, all Forgeworld models are banned from tournaments and only one LoW model is allowed per army.
Forgeworld is not banned because of power, but because of the lack of accessibility people have to the models and rules. Many feel it's a pay to win thing. I'm all for limiting the LoW choices to 1.

I've ordered from their website just fine. What's this lack of accessibility argument really coming from?

The fact that models cost twice or more their equivalents that are present in the GW catalogue, probably. And not only those resin models are super expensive but there's also no chance to get new FW models with a 25%-30% price cut. Not in my area at least.

That's why FW models here are extremely uncommon. FW prices is the reason why that stuff is unpopular here and we have a sort of implied agreement that bans FW stuff.

LoWs are other hated units.

It's a slippery slope but it all derives from people trying to turn 40k into a competitive game - which it just isn't.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Half and half, really, if Elysians were that crushingly OP they wouldn't roll alongside Celestine and Conscripts. And since apparently Scions are that bad, they'll end up replacing Elysians in tourneys where the latter can't be spammed.

This – unfortunately.
As others have said, Elysians can be replaced by Scions. Earthshaker batteries can be replaced with a standard basilisk for an extra 28 points (sure it adds up when you start taking several of them, but, most lists can find the points for a couple with a bit of “jigging”). Malefic Lords can be swapped for Primaris Pskyers for +10 points, or, you could just go even more spammy and take 2 astropaths for each Lord.

Single LoW’s feels like it doesn’t do anything other than prevent Knight armies from taking part. Sure, there are a few people playing 3 baneblade tank armies etc, but, they are hardly repressive or causing a problem right now. I guess, the only broken thing it does stop is BobbyG and 3 Knights, but there are better ways to fix that issue – i.e. “If your army contains multiple LoWs, they must all share the same -sub faction- keyword. E.g. Questor Imperialis (Imperial Knights faction keyword).

If I was going to this event and was playing an AM list “meta” list, I’d have no worries going into the event. Conscripts are still a thing. BobbyG and Celestine are still good to go. Sure, batteries are restricted, but, I could still take 1 unit of 3 earthshakers, then a couple of manticores etc, followed by 900-1000 points of plasma drop scions etc and all is good. Maybe throw in 6 or so units of mortars for added “fun”.

I think restrictions should have been applied to other units in addition to the FW ones (if you are insistent on it). For example, conscripts need to go back to being 0-1 like they were in 7th. Maybe have a 0-1 on each type of Flyer (battlefield role, not keyword). Brimstones/all horror units to have a total model limit of say, 30 models (just throwing numbers around now) in order to keep them in line with a 50 man conscript unit.

Regardless of any attempts to “reduce” the impact of “OP FW”, I predict the winner of the event this week will be standard Astra Militarum with added “friends”. Behind them will be certain builds of Chaos.

 AaronWilson wrote:
It's a slippery slope but it all derives from people trying to turn 40k into a competitive game - which it just isn't.

100% agree

Little increases add up. If AM were effectively down 100-150 points due to bringing less efficient options they would notice it.
Malefic lords stand out as obviously needing a price hike. Lots of other problems but this is a no brainer fix.

Maybe the fact the discussion is so fixated on unit statistics ratbsr tnan counterplays (not "take different units") is a sign the core rules should be revisited and the unit statistics are still mostly a symptom?

 Blackie wrote:

 AaronWilson wrote:
It's a slippery slope but it all derives from people trying to turn 40k into a competitive game - which it just isn't.

100% agree

!00% disagree, GW is now the one trying to turn it into a competitive game

A change I personally welcome. I don't think it's a bad thing to have a competitive scene and relaxed 40k.

GW has never tried to balance the game like this before though. I think it is pretty understandable that they are going to be hitting a lot of the early speed bumps that most RTS developers hit as well. Blizzard actually wasn't that great at balancing beginning, for example, but they got there eventually.

Audustum wrote:
A change I personally welcome. I don't think it's a bad thing to have a competitive scene and relaxed 40k.

GW has never tried to balance the game like this before though. I think it is pretty understandable that they are going to be hitting a lot of the early speed bumps that most RTS developers hit as well. Blizzard actually wasn't that great at balancing beginning, for example, but they got there eventually.

A problem that GW has compared to things like Blizzard and Riot is that those games have automatically recorded stats in absolute droves. It's easy to know where your balance flaws are when you have literally millions of people's aggregated data to look at. But when all you have is the results of a few pro players and the whines of internet people that want to win easily, it's a really hard thing to do. You can balance out the worst offenders, but you'll never manage to get a game as balanced as either Starcraft or League of Legends.

 Blackie wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 SideshowLucifer wrote:
Locally, all Forgeworld models are banned from tournaments and only one LoW model is allowed per army.
Forgeworld is not banned because of power, but because of the lack of accessibility people have to the models and rules. Many feel it's a pay to win thing. I'm all for limiting the LoW choices to 1.

I've ordered from their website just fine. What's this lack of accessibility argument really coming from?

The fact that models cost twice or more their equivalents that are present in the GW catalogue, probably. And not only those resin models are super expensive but there's also no chance to get new FW models with a 25%-30% price cut. Not in my area at least.

That's why FW models here are extremely uncommon. FW prices is the reason why that stuff is unpopular here and we have a sort of implied agreement that bans FW stuff.

LoWs are other hated units.

The models really aren't much more than regular GW models (sometimes even, for crying out loud), and the only absurd items like Titans, which really don't get brought to games anyway and end up being display pieces for the most part.

Sorry, I'm not buying your accessibility argument.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also REALLY? LoW and other hated units? You mean Eldar titans and then?

The LoW slot was no more broken than the Troop slot when you had Scatterbikes and 5th Edition Grey Hunters. Please cut that crap off.

 Blackie wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 SideshowLucifer wrote:
Locally, all Forgeworld models are banned from tournaments and only one LoW model is allowed per army.
Forgeworld is not banned because of power, but because of the lack of accessibility people have to the models and rules. Many feel it's a pay to win thing. I'm all for limiting the LoW choices to 1.

I've ordered from their website just fine. What's this lack of accessibility argument really coming from?

The fact that models cost twice or more their equivalents that are present in the GW catalogue, probably. And not only those resin models are super expensive but there's also no chance to get new FW models with a 25%-30% price cut. Not in my area at least.

That's why FW models here are extremely uncommon. FW prices is the reason why that stuff is unpopular here and we have a sort of implied agreement that bans FW stuff.

LoWs are other hated units.

You can find both GW and FW stuff for cheap in the used market... but that said, everything in 40K is "pay to play"... it's a privileged hobby. People who worry about feeding their kids and paying rent don't play Warhammer. Further Forgeworld isn't that much more expensive than GW unless we are talking about the enormous super heavy type models.

The old notion that Forgeworld's "pay to play" means you are getting better rules for a higher price, is not even remotely accurate and hasn't been so for a very long time (if ever). There are individual units that are not balanced correctly in the FW line... and SOOOO many more that are not balanced correctly in the GW line. They all need attention and GW/FW seems committed to giving them attention.

I'm so happy I don't play in such a constipated and close-minded atmosphere where folks are banning units out of uninformed fear.

 Purifier wrote:

Audustum wrote:
A change I personally welcome. I don't think it's a bad thing to have a competitive scene and relaxed 40k.

GW has never tried to balance the game like this before though. I think it is pretty understandable that they are going to be hitting a lot of the early speed bumps that most RTS developers hit as well. Blizzard actually wasn't that great at balancing beginning, for example, but they got there eventually.

A problem that GW has compared to things like Blizzard and Riot is that those games have automatically recorded stats in absolute droves. It's easy to know where your balance flaws are when you have literally millions of people's aggregated data to look at. But when all you have is the results of a few pro players and the whines of internet people that want to win easily, it's a really hard thing to do. You can balance out the worst offenders, but you'll never manage to get a game as balanced as either Starcraft or League of Legends.

I'd say never say never. That said, it's a Herculean task GW has set for itself and they'll be legends if they pull it off for the exact reasons you describe.

 Gunzhard wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 SideshowLucifer wrote:
Locally, all Forgeworld models are banned from tournaments and only one LoW model is allowed per army.
Forgeworld is not banned because of power, but because of the lack of accessibility people have to the models and rules. Many feel it's a pay to win thing. I'm all for limiting the LoW choices to 1.

I've ordered from their website just fine. What's this lack of accessibility argument really coming from?

The fact that models cost twice or more their equivalents that are present in the GW catalogue, probably. And not only those resin models are super expensive but there's also no chance to get new FW models with a 25%-30% price cut. Not in my area at least.

That's why FW models here are extremely uncommon. FW prices is the reason why that stuff is unpopular here and we have a sort of implied agreement that bans FW stuff.

LoWs are other hated units.

You can find both GW and FW stuff for cheap in the used market... but that said, everything in 40K is "pay to play"... it's a privileged hobby. People who worry about feeding their kids and paying rent don't play Warhammer. Further Forgeworld isn't that much more expensive than GW unless we are talking about the enormous super heavy type models.

The old notion that Forgeworld's "pay to play" means you are getting better rules for a higher price, is not even remotely accurate and hasn't been so for a very long time (if ever). There are individual units that are not balanced correctly in the FW line... and SOOOO many more that are not balanced correctly in the GW line. They all need attention and GW/FW seems committed to giving them attention.

I'm so happy I don't play in such a constipated and close-minded atmosphere where folks are banning units out of uninformed fear.

100% agree

 Gunzhard wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 SideshowLucifer wrote:
Locally, all Forgeworld models are banned from tournaments and only one LoW model is allowed per army.
Forgeworld is not banned because of power, but because of the lack of accessibility people have to the models and rules. Many feel it's a pay to win thing. I'm all for limiting the LoW choices to 1.

I've ordered from their website just fine. What's this lack of accessibility argument really coming from?

The fact that models cost twice or more their equivalents that are present in the GW catalogue, probably. And not only those resin models are super expensive but there's also no chance to get new FW models with a 25%-30% price cut. Not in my area at least.

That's why FW models here are extremely uncommon. FW prices is the reason why that stuff is unpopular here and we have a sort of implied agreement that bans FW stuff.

LoWs are other hated units.

You can find both GW and FW stuff for cheap in the used market... but that said, everything in 40K is "pay to play"... it's a privileged hobby. People who worry about feeding their kids and paying rent don't play Warhammer. Further Forgeworld isn't that much more expensive than GW unless we are talking about the enormous super heavy type models.

The old notion that Forgeworld's "pay to play" means you are getting better rules for a higher price, is not even remotely accurate and hasn't been so for a very long time (if ever). There are individual units that are not balanced correctly in the FW line... and SOOOO many more that are not balanced correctly in the GW line. They all need attention and GW/FW seems committed to giving them attention.

I'm so happy I don't play in such a constipated and close-minded atmosphere where folks are banning units out of uninformed fear.

It is no where near as easy to find cheap FW on the used market as it is GW, so it is somewhat disingenuous to equate the two.

Really the issue with FW right now is waiting to see if they address any balance issues. That is pretty much it.

Breng77 wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 SideshowLucifer wrote:
Locally, all Forgeworld models are banned from tournaments and only one LoW model is allowed per army.
Forgeworld is not banned because of power, but because of the lack of accessibility people have to the models and rules. Many feel it's a pay to win thing. I'm all for limiting the LoW choices to 1.

I've ordered from their website just fine. What's this lack of accessibility argument really coming from?

The fact that models cost twice or more their equivalents that are present in the GW catalogue, probably. And not only those resin models are super expensive but there's also no chance to get new FW models with a 25%-30% price cut. Not in my area at least.

That's why FW models here are extremely uncommon. FW prices is the reason why that stuff is unpopular here and we have a sort of implied agreement that bans FW stuff.

LoWs are other hated units.

You can find both GW and FW stuff for cheap in the used market... but that said, everything in 40K is "pay to play"... it's a privileged hobby. People who worry about feeding their kids and paying rent don't play Warhammer. Further Forgeworld isn't that much more expensive than GW unless we are talking about the enormous super heavy type models.

The old notion that Forgeworld's "pay to play" means you are getting better rules for a higher price, is not even remotely accurate and hasn't been so for a very long time (if ever). There are individual units that are not balanced correctly in the FW line... and SOOOO many more that are not balanced correctly in the GW line. They all need attention and GW/FW seems committed to giving them attention.

I'm so happy I don't play in such a constipated and close-minded atmosphere where folks are banning units out of uninformed fear.

It is no where near as easy to find cheap FW on the used market as it is GW, so it is somewhat disingenuous to equate the two.

Really the issue with FW right now is waiting to see if they address any balance issues. That is pretty much it.

He is talking about 3rd parties, there is.... this subreddit for 1.. that can make every model for really cheap for you, and you know the worst part? they are better than finecast. i order a couple b.c i hate finecast and there are a few models that i wont buy, many finecast is fine, thicker models like fire dragons are just fine, but then there are some that just bend, melt, break etc....

I priced out a sob army via these places and it was about 70% the cost.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 SideshowLucifer wrote:
Locally, all Forgeworld models are banned from tournaments and only one LoW model is allowed per army.
Forgeworld is not banned because of power, but because of the lack of accessibility people have to the models and rules. Many feel it's a pay to win thing. I'm all for limiting the LoW choices to 1.

I've ordered from their website just fine. What's this lack of accessibility argument really coming from?

The fact that models cost twice or more their equivalents that are present in the GW catalogue, probably. And not only those resin models are super expensive but there's also no chance to get new FW models with a 25%-30% price cut. Not in my area at least.

That's why FW models here are extremely uncommon. FW prices is the reason why that stuff is unpopular here and we have a sort of implied agreement that bans FW stuff.

LoWs are other hated units.

You can find both GW and FW stuff for cheap in the used market... but that said, everything in 40K is "pay to play"... it's a privileged hobby. People who worry about feeding their kids and paying rent don't play Warhammer. Further Forgeworld isn't that much more expensive than GW unless we are talking about the enormous super heavy type models.

The old notion that Forgeworld's "pay to play" means you are getting better rules for a higher price, is not even remotely accurate and hasn't been so for a very long time (if ever). There are individual units that are not balanced correctly in the FW line... and SOOOO many more that are not balanced correctly in the GW line. They all need attention and GW/FW seems committed to giving them attention.

I'm so happy I don't play in such a constipated and close-minded atmosphere where folks are banning units out of uninformed fear.

It is no where near as easy to find cheap FW on the used market as it is GW, so it is somewhat disingenuous to equate the two.

Really the issue with FW right now is waiting to see if they address any balance issues. That is pretty much it.

He is talking about 3rd parties, there is.... this subreddit for 1.. that can make every model for really cheap for you, and you know the worst part? they are better than finecast. i order a couple b.c i hate finecast and there are a few models that i wont buy, many finecast is fine, thicker models like fire dragons are just fine, but then there are some that just bend, melt, break etc....

I priced out a sob army via these places and it was about 70% the cost.

That isn't the used market though, and hardly the easiest place to aquire models from.