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AnFéasógMór wrote:


So, at 25%, the cost of a Boy would be what, 8 points? I'd love to see what other army is getting something significantly better than an effective BS 4+ WS 3+ S4 T4 A3 with the ability to reroll charges and the potential for as high as Ld 20 at the start or the game at 8 points a model. Sure, other models have better BS or better Sv, or better Ld at similar costs, but they pay for it in lower T/S or fewer attacks, or in some cases even worse armor saves.

I can get that having completely ineffective fire is an issue no matter how cheap the models are, but given the rest of the Boy statline, it would not be ridiculous at all for them to bump up to 8 points a model have and effective 4+ BS

Have you even heard of conscripts? They're cheaper than boyz by 3 points, are BS4 can come in larger blobs, have a 5+, have a lasgun, can become completely fearless at the cost of one model, and can use the hilariously broken orders. Boyz, meanwhile, have a worse save, worse accuracy, worse guns, cannot use orders, are slower, and only have high leadership in massive blobs. Not to mention boyz have to get all the way across the table to be effective whereas conscripts are happy sitting and shooting in cover. The only advantages boyz have is their higher strength, toughness, attacks, and rerollable charges. So no, I don't think paying 8 points for a BS4 model is broken at all. Hell, I think even at 7 points we'd still be fine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wyldhunt wrote:
@Vitali Advenil:

3. Ah. Yes. I can agree with that points cost. I'm not sure I agree with the "that's just adding points to give them a flimsy bit of protection" part though. In my eyes, transports are just a mandatory part of making some units work. I never run dark eldar trueborn around on foot and expect them to to perform; I give them a transport to keep them alive and get them in position, even though dark eldar vehicles aren't the sturdiest things in the galaxy. My craftworlder fire dragons are pretty solid tank busters, but I never make them jog up the field; I buy a fast and sturdy transport for them that, though useful in their own right, cost as much as 2 or 2.5 trucks depending on how I outfit them.

I kind of feel like you're saying, "Units aren't good unless they don't need transports." That's simply not how some units work, in my eyes.

I get your points, actually. I think I was moreso stating that in order to use certain units, they need a transport, and that should be a factor to take into account when valuing their worth. That's why I don't really run meganobz anymore. They were absolute stars for me in 7th since I could sit 3 of them in a trukk for under 200 points- I'd never try to footslog them. Now the cost has risen dramatically, and they lost an attack and do less damage, so I never run them anymore. Sure, I could save points and try to footslog them but they'd never make it up the table.

 Vitali Advenil wrote:
The only advantages boyz have is their higher strength, toughness, attacks, and rerollable charges.

That's a whole lot of advantages

To be fair, conscripts and boyz are kind of apples and oranges. No one really cares much about the damage output of conscripts because their job is to stand in front of important stuff and die in droves while a commissar makes them fearless.

Boyz are generally expected to do some damage, or at least to look threatening and then die while another unit does damage.

@Vitali Advenil:
All good points. Fair enough.

Wyldhunt wrote:
To be fair, conscripts and boyz are kind of apples and oranges. No one really cares much about the damage output of conscripts because their job is to stand in front of important stuff and die in droves while a commissar makes them fearless.

Boyz are generally expected to do some damage, or at least to look threatening and then die while another unit does damage.

@Vitali Advenil:
All good points. Fair enough.

But we do not have another unit that can do the damage. Gretchin are supposed to be the meat shields while boyz are the main troop... Every other unit is basically too expensive to effectively feild. I don't know if you guys play orks or not but you all use maths when in reality when playing orks it is pure random and luck! 1/6 on boyz when we advance mean often I only get 1 shot off! The problem I find with 40k and on forums is we all think we have it tough and we all know we are correct because we have experienced the imbalance! It's hard when I play a 200pts on 30boyz who have to run across the table to do anything and a single cheaper unit wipes them out turn 1. With shooting units you get survivability, you do not have to run in the open straight for the enemy, and all we ask for is a chance to play in this style. But the fact is, is tye game is imbalanced and will continue to be this was as long as gw can sell rule books.

 lolman1c wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:
To be fair, conscripts and boyz are kind of apples and oranges. No one really cares much about the damage output of conscripts because their job is to stand in front of important stuff and die in droves while a commissar makes them fearless.

Boyz are generally expected to do some damage, or at least to look threatening and then die while another unit does damage.

@Vitali Advenil:
All good points. Fair enough.

But we do not have another unit that can do the damage. Gretchin are supposed to be the meat shields while boyz are the main troop... Every other unit is basically too expensive to effectively feild. I don't know if you guys play orks or not but you all use maths when in reality when playing orks it is pure random and luck! 1/6 on boyz when we advance mean often I only get 1 shot off! The problem I find with 40k and on forums is we all think we have it tough and we all know we are correct because we have experienced the imbalance! It's hard when I play a 200pts on 30boyz who have to run across the table to do anything and a single cheaper unit wipes them out turn 1. With shooting units you get survivability, you do not have to run in the open straight for the enemy, and all we ask for is a chance to play in this style. But the fact is, is tye game is imbalanced and will continue to be this was as long as gw can sell rule books.

Not to dismiss your concerns or to sound like orks are top tier right now, but I think you might be underselling them just a bit. A basic ork boy is about as offensively lethal as dedicated melee aspect warriors and roughly 1/2 (banshees) or 1/3rd (scorpions) the cost. The have the melee punch of a dark eldar wych with both bonus attack and bonus strength drugs. A small (for orks) squad in a truk isn't a huge investment and has decent odds of making combat in a mechanized list. You're right about a 30 boy squad struggling to cross the table, which is why 30 boy squads usually get Da Jump'd into position.

Also, what "cheap unit" is doing 30 wounds to a squad of ork boyz on turn 1?

Again, I agree that orks have their problems and could stand to see a few buffs when their codex rolls around, but I think there may be a bit of frustrated hyperbole in your post.

AnFéasógMór wrote:

 Vitali Advenil wrote:
The only advantages boyz have is their higher strength, toughness, attacks, and rerollable charges.

That's a whole lot of advantages

Did you not read the rest of my post, or are you just ignoring it? Like I said in my previous post, orks have 4 advantages over conscripts. Conscripts meanwhile have a better save, better leadership, better weapon skill, better weapon, can take orders, and come in larger blobs. That's six advantages. Oh, and they're also literally half the cost of an ork. Read my entire argument next time.

 Vitali Advenil wrote:

AnFéasógMór wrote:

 Vitali Advenil wrote:
The only advantages boyz have is their higher strength, toughness, attacks, and rerollable charges.

That's a whole lot of advantages

Did you not read the rest of my post, or are you just ignoring it? Like I said in my previous post, orks have 4 advantages over conscripts. Conscripts meanwhile have a better save, better leadership, better weapon skill, better weapon, can take orders, and come in larger blobs. That's six advantages. Oh, and they're also literally half the cost of an ork. Read my entire argument next time.

I did read your entire argument. My point was that you were trying to act like Boyz have no advantages over conscripts, and they do. Dying to boltguns on a 4 instead of a 3, actually having a snowball's chance in hell of killing a MEQ in close combat are no small advantages. But if you'd like me to point out where the rest of your argument is disingenuous, I can.

First off, even if we took each of the things you've highlighted as advantages and compared them, conscripts have a net 2 advantages over orks, not 6. 6-4=2. But even that isn't really right, is it? Because, first off, Orks have three attacks to a conscript's 1. So that's two advantages, not one. Secondly, claiming conscripts have "better leadership" is a little misleading, at least for "half the points" of a Boy. Because in order to have have that be true, you have to take a commissar, which means another 30+ points sunk into the unit. Thirdly, Orks have access to special weapons to begin with, which conscripts don't, and if you were giving them an effectively 4+ BS, they'd have a pretty damned good chance of using those heavy weapons. And there is nothing inherently advantageous to "bigger blobs", That's entirely dependent on your playstyle. In fact, if the argument here is given all Orks "dakke, dakka, dakka" bigger blobs would be a disadvantage, since that would be more shots forced towards the same target to get your 4+.

So, let's see that's eight advantages Boyz have over conscripts, to four conscripts have over Boys so a net advantage of four stats/abilities, or roughly twice as many benefits, for twice as many points.

And leaving that aside, doesn't change the fact that even if conscripts are undercosted compared to other armies, the solution to that wouldn't be to undercost Boyz, too, while leaving everyone else without the same parity, it would be to bump the points up on conscripts.

So yeah, still not seeing a problem with going up 2 points for that 4+ BS

AnFéasógMór wrote:


Man, you must have played a different 7e than I did, I played the 7e where CC focused armies had no chance of surviving the first round and a half against shooty armies in a good enough shape to charge, especially since if they came in from reserve they were required to spend a turn sitting around waiting to be shot, and where transports were rolling coffins that stood no chance again ap spam cheese.

I was referring specifically to the ORK codex, not the entire edition. 7th edition for Orkz saw us reduced from playing several different play styles like Kan Spam and Gunlines to having to rely on Speed Freak/Mech lists. Basically prior to 7th an Ork Gunline was a possible list to field and have a decent chance of winning. After 7th dropped? You either played MSU Mech lists or Speed Freakz with heavy reliance on bikes. (Which is why I have 35 bikes)






Automatically Appended Next Post:

AnFéasógMór wrote:

I did read your entire argument. My point was that you were trying to act like Boyz have no advantages over conscripts, and they do. Dying to boltguns on a 4 instead of a 3, actually having a snowball's chance in hell of killing a MEQ in close combat are no small advantages. But if you'd like me to point out where the rest of your argument is disingenuous, I can.

No, he is actually pretty much correct. Conscripts are better then Boyz because if you want to compare them you need to do it on a point basis not 1v1.

AnFéasógMór wrote:
First off, even if we took each of the things you've highlighted as advantages and compared them, conscripts have a net 2 advantages over orks, not 6. 6-4=2. But even that isn't really right, is it? Because, first off, Orks have three attacks to a conscript's 1. So that's two advantages, not one.

If you give Orkz BS4+ AND still give them 3 attacks each that means you are giving them a Choppa which means they have a pistol instead of a long range weapon, effectively making that BS4 useless except to ruin your charge range. So realistically they have 2 attacks compared to the Conscripts 1, and again, going point for point, you can buy 2 conscripts for the price of 1 Ork Boyz, so technically they have 2 attacks as well.

AnFéasógMór wrote:
Secondly, claiming conscripts have "better leadership" is a little misleading, at least for "half the points" of a Boy. Because in order to have have that be true, you have to take a commissar, which means another 30+ points sunk into the unit.

True, you do have to add in that expenditure, of course you only need 1 commissar to make any number of blobs fearless and from what I have seen people tend to use 2-3 blobs and 1 commissar, so technically its 30pts spread out over 3 blobs or 150 models, in other words chuck on another 10pts to make 50 duders fearless, I can live with that cost for my Boyz, damn shame I don't get that.

AnFéasógMór wrote:
Thirdly, Orks have access to special weapons to begin with, which conscripts don't, and if you were giving them an effectively 4+ BS, they'd have a pretty damned good chance of using those heavy weapons. And there is nothing inherently advantageous to "bigger blobs", That's entirely dependent on your playstyle. In fact, if the argument here is given all Orks "dakke, dakka, dakka" bigger blobs would be a disadvantage, since that would be more shots forced towards the same target to get your 4+.

Yep, nothing strikes fear into the hearts of my opponents like 3 Rokkitz or Big shootas hidden in a boyz blob. Even if they are BS4+ you are hitting 1.5 times with a Rokkit at 24inch range or 4.5 times with a S5 Big Shoota at 36inch range. Not exactly game breaking here, Also, your bare bones Conscripts comes stock with a ranged 24 rapid fire weapon and can be issued orders to effectively DOUBLE that rate of fire. A Shoota boy on the other hand comes stock with a Assault 2 ranged 18 S4 weapon which while +1 strength higher, has no effective buffs to increase its effectiveness, I'll take 100-200 S3 shots over 60 S4 shots any day of the week.

AnFéasógMór wrote:
So, let's see that's eight advantages Boyz have over conscripts, to four conscripts have over Boys so a net advantage of four stats/abilities, or roughly twice as many benefits, for twice as many points.

And leaving that aside, doesn't change the fact that even if conscripts are undercosted compared to other armies, the solution to that wouldn't be to undercost Boyz, too, while leaving everyone else without the same parity, it would be to bump the points up on conscripts.

So yeah, still not seeing a problem with going up 2 points for that 4+ BS

So in reality those Conscripts have the following advantages: Longer Ranged Weapon, Significantly cheaper, Better Leadership and access to Leadership buffs, Better buffs in general (Orders), Better armor (50% better mind you), the only advantages boyz have is T4, S4, WS3+ and the reroll assault which sadly isn't as useful as last edition because you have to reroll both dice. I do agree that the answer isn't to lower the cost of boyz to the ridiculous levels of Conscripts, however, saying that boyz are better then conscripts is disingenuous at best.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wyldhunt wrote:

Not to dismiss your concerns or to sound like orks are top tier right now, but I think you might be underselling them just a bit. A basic ork boy is about as offensively lethal as dedicated melee aspect warriors and roughly 1/2 (banshees) or 1/3rd (scorpions) the cost. The have the melee punch of a dark eldar wych with both bonus attack and bonus strength drugs. A small (for orks) squad in a truk isn't a huge investment and has decent odds of making combat in a mechanized list. You're right about a 30 boy squad struggling to cross the table, which is why 30 boy squads usually get Da Jump'd into position.

Also, what "cheap unit" is doing 30 wounds to a squad of ork boyz on turn 1?

Again, I agree that orks have their problems and could stand to see a few buffs when their codex rolls around, but I think there may be a bit of frustrated hyperbole in your post.

Trukk Boyz died in 7th and they weren't even that effective then either. Nobody is going to pay 72pts for 12 boyz and then pay another 86 to put them in a Trukk which is then effectively useless except to eat overwatch. You are saying that a 160pt investment isn't much for a 12 man boyz squad and that just isn't true. They suffer huge leadership issues and have no real striking power (12 boyz charging into CC will reliably get 10 models in which = 30 S4 attacks, 20 hits and against T4 thats 10 wounds) So Boyz are pretty effective at CC (not exceptional but very reliable) but they die in droves and the only effective way to field them is in blobs of 30 to help them get that all important +1 attack. Da Jump is useful, but it is important to remember that in doing that you open them up to leadership issues because they are beyond the range of support most of the time. 30 Boyz suffering 13 casualties are no longer fearless, anything more adds to their likelihood of failing a morale test and getting wiped out.

As to what cheap unit is doing work on boyz? Well theres a few, but none will be putting out 30 wounds, but you don't need to put out 30 wounds, you only need to kill about 19 of them to make the fail leadership and wipe themselves out. A pair of Asscan Razorbacks will effectively annihilate a boyz squad before it can even get into CC and they cost roughly the same price. A Storm Raven will do likewise, A Girlyman gunline with almost anything will do that as well. There are just a bunch of combos that will devastate a boyz squad that isn't supported by a 30 blob nearby.

Longer ranged weapon? Don't they both have 24" guns?

Significantly cheaper, yup, that checks out.

Better Leadership? Correct me if wrong, aren't they Leadership 4? Compared to Boyz 7?

Access to Leadership buffs is debatable. Mob Rule is easier to give to Boyz, and is better to start, but becomes worse eventually.

Better buffs in general, I agree.

Better armor is true, but not by much. 4/6 instead of 5/6 going through... Not much better.

T4 is actually pretty comparable to the armor improvement.

Let me run numbers:

36 Lasgun Hits
Boyz: 12 wound, 10 unsaved
Conscripts: 18 wound, 12 unsaved

36 Bolter Hits
Boyz: 18 wound, 15 unsaved
Conscripts: 24 wound, 16 unsaved

36 Heavy Bolter Hits
Boyz: 24 wound, 24 unsaved
Conscripts: 24 wound, 20 unsaved

36 Autocannon Hits
Boyz: 24 wound, 24 unsaved
Conscripts: 30 wound, 24 unsaved

36 Plasma Hits
Boyz: 24 wound, 24 unsaved
Conscripts: 30 wound, 30 unsaved

36 Overcharged Plasma Hits
Boyz: 30 wound, 30 unsaved
Conscripts: 30 wound, 30 unsaved

So Conscripts win in durability (model per model, that is) against Heavy Bolters and... Whatever else is S5 and AP0 or -1? Ah, most Tau shooting, I suppose. They also have better durability against anything S8 and AP0 or -1, but does that even exist?

So yeah... They seem reasonably comparable. Point per point, Conscripts might be a bit better, but honestly, not a ton.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Longer ranged weapon? Don't they both have 24" guns?

Significantly cheaper, yup, that checks out.

Better Leadership? Correct me if wrong, aren't they Leadership 4? Compared to Boyz 7?

Access to Leadership buffs is debatable. Mob Rule is easier to give to Boyz, and is better to start, but becomes worse eventually.

Better buffs in general, I agree.

Better armor is true, but not by much. 4/6 instead of 5/6 going through... Not much better.

T4 is actually pretty comparable to the armor improvement.

Let me run numbers:

36 Lasgun Hits
Boyz: 12 wound, 10 unsaved (60pts lost)
Conscripts: 18 wound, 12 unsaved (36pts lost)

36 Bolter Hits
Boyz: 18 wound, 15 unsaved (90pts lost)
Conscripts: 24 wound, 16 unsaved (48pts lost)

36 Heavy Bolter Hits
Boyz: 24 wound, 24 unsaved (144pts lost)
Conscripts: 24 wound, 20 unsaved (60pts lost)

36 Autocannon Hits
Boyz: 24 wound, 24 unsaved (144pts lost)
Conscripts: 30 wound, 24 unsaved (72pts lost)

36 Plasma Hits
Boyz: 24 wound, 24 unsaved (144pts lost)
Conscripts: 30 wound, 30 unsaved (90pts lost)

36 Overcharged Plasma Hits
Boyz: 30 wound, 30 unsaved (180pts lost)
Conscripts: 30 wound, 30 unsaved (90pts lost)

So Conscripts win in durability (model per model, that is) against Heavy Bolters and... Whatever else is S5 and AP0 or -1? Ah, most Tau shooting, I suppose. They also have better durability against anything S8 and AP0 or -1, but does that even exist?

So yeah... They seem reasonably comparable. Point per point, Conscripts might be a bit better, but honestly, not a ton.

No, Ork Shootas are Ranged 18, Lasguns are 24

As for leadership, the commissar is standard issue at this point, nobody fields them without one. And to negate a Commissars buff you have to KILL the commissar which most savvy IG players won't let happen by using terrain and common sense to their advantage. Mob rule on the other hand is rather easy to negate, especially if you use Da Jump or more common sense to thin nearby units as well.

Also you seem to have forgotten, Ork Boyz are 6pts a model and conscripts are 3pts a model. So point for Point they are SIGNIFICANTLY more durable, mostly due to armor and price. I added prices in models lost to your post.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Longer ranged weapon? Don't they both have 24" guns?

Significantly cheaper, yup, that checks out.

Better Leadership? Correct me if wrong, aren't they Leadership 4? Compared to Boyz 7?

Access to Leadership buffs is debatable. Mob Rule is easier to give to Boyz, and is better to start, but becomes worse eventually.

Better buffs in general, I agree.

Better armor is true, but not by much. 4/6 instead of 5/6 going through... Not much better.

T4 is actually pretty comparable to the armor improvement.

Let me run numbers:

36 Lasgun Hits
Boyz: 12 wound, 10 unsaved
Conscripts: 18 wound, 12 unsaved

36 Bolter Hits
Boyz: 18 wound, 15 unsaved
Conscripts: 24 wound, 16 unsaved

36 Heavy Bolter Hits
Boyz: 24 wound, 24 unsaved
Conscripts: 24 wound, 20 unsaved

36 Autocannon Hits
Boyz: 24 wound, 24 unsaved
Conscripts: 30 wound, 24 unsaved

36 Plasma Hits
Boyz: 24 wound, 24 unsaved
Conscripts: 30 wound, 30 unsaved

36 Overcharged Plasma Hits
Boyz: 30 wound, 30 unsaved
Conscripts: 30 wound, 30 unsaved

So Conscripts win in durability (model per model, that is) against Heavy Bolters and... Whatever else is S5 and AP0 or -1? Ah, most Tau shooting, I suppose. They also have better durability against anything S8 and AP0 or -1, but does that even exist?

So yeah... They seem reasonably comparable. Point per point, Conscripts might be a bit better, but honestly, not a ton.

Sadly shootas are only range 18, not 24. Sluggas are 12, but let's be honest you don't take sluggas for their shooting.

Boyz are Ld 7 with a nob, but I was comparing their mob rule to summary execution. And they're going to have summary execution because leaving a blob of conscripts unsupported is just a bad decision, just like leaving a blob of boyz unsupported would be a bad decision. Every blob of boyz is going to have either a warboss, big mek, painboy, or weirdboy in range to buff them up just like every conscript blob is going to have a commissar, priest, or what have you. In fact, conscript blobs are basically the shooty version of a boyz blob. Through all this banter we've established that boyz are basically equal to conscripts (I still think they have better synergy and flexibility than boyz, but that's likely due to shooting still being better and orders being ridiculous) at half the price. AnFéasógMór's first point was to find a unit that was basically as strong as boyz for the same amount of points, and I pointed to conscripts due to them also having a BS of 4. I do not think boyz are "twice as good" as conscripts but neither do I think conscripts are flatly better- just more tactical.

Even then, all of this is more or less moot because in a previous post I said it would probably make more sense to give this just to certain shooty units, not all orks as I first stated. I don't think boyz would be worth taking if they were any more expensive due to their fragility, and with their abysmal range they really wouldn't benefit from a 4+ to hit anyway. Give it to the specialist units who indeed could have a price increase. Hell, if lootas of all things had access to this rule they'd sure as hell need a few more points slapped on.

Guys, have you even fought against conscripts as Orks? (Maybe this is where much of my argument comes from). Turn 1, 150 conscripts (cheaper than my 60 boyz and dakka jet and hqs) killed almost every single unit on the feild. That is not even a joke....They had orders and crap. I gave up because only my Warboss and weirdboy was alive... With split fire they are insane!

I don't want BS4+ Orks.

I want a LOT more shots - Ork armies should have the most dice rolled, regardless of effectiveness; but in this day and age, Imperial armies get more dakka, at better BS and stats than Orks.

I'd say go the other way, I'd give them BS6+ and a special rule: "Endless Dakka: Orks always hit on a 6+", and a lot more shots; or perhaps "Endless Dakka: Orks always hit on a 6+. Shooting attack rolls of 6+ generate an additional attack roll, unless the attack could only hit on a 6+", if you want to keep them BS5+.

Just let me roll dice.

 ph34r wrote:
So how many points would you want your Orks to increase in return for their +50% shooting effectiveness? +25% points to each ork? Is that desirable?

Currently, an ork shootaboy'z ranged damage output is around the bolter tactical marine's damage output. So, you can't build an effective shooty list around this. Shooting is still so mediocre, you got to utilise the mellee profile. It's in no way bad but we're kinda forced in mellee with boyz anywayz.

If we compare an ork loota to a csm AC havok, we get:
loota 17 pts, havok 33 pts
on average:
havok is 2 times as effective as loota at shooting but is twice as expensive => they've got the same damage output vs no hit-modified targets
havok is 3 times as effective as loota at shooting -1 to-hit targets => lootas are ~33% less effective at shooting flyers and other hard to hit units
havok in cover is 4 times as durable as loota vs ap0 weapons but is twice as expensive => lootas are 100% less durable than havoks vs ap0 weapons
havok in cover is 2.5 times as durable as loota vs ap1 weapons but is twice as expensive => lootas are 25% less durable than havoks vs ap1 weapons
havok in cover is 2 times as durable as loota vs ap2 weapons but is twice as expensive => lootas are as durable as havoks vs ap2 weapons
havok in cover is 1.5 times as durable as loota vs ap3 weapons but is twice as expensive => lootas are 33% more durable than havoks vs ap3 weapons

AC havoks are not considered good right now but even they, being unbuffed to boot, are better than lootas as they have the same damage output - and even better vs hard to hit targets and are way more durable vs a bulk of weapons. Keep in mind that orks also suffer from morale much more as they take more losses and their morale is 1-2 points lower to begin with.

So, for lootas to be at least as effective as unbuffed havoks, they need a ~ 20% price drop - this way they'll deal more damage on average but will be less sturdy vs anti-infantry weapons. Probably like they should be. This makes a loota's adequate point cost *drumroll* 14 pts. Just like they were before the update.

Note that it's not making lootas 'good' - it's just making them ok like AC havoks. If you compare loota's damage output to what is really taken in most lists - like asscan razors with girlyman or plasma scions, they should probably cost like 8-9 pts. But it's absurd and this things should be nerfed to begin with.

My personal favourite solution:

Orks always hit on a 6+, regardless of modifiers.

All our ranged weapons get a lot cheaper. They're too innacurate, and the guys carrying them are mostly too squishy (or both) to justify the additional cost. They need to be cheap enough that it's not generally more effective to just take more boyz.

How about a rule that means all orks hit on a 6+ regardless of modifiers, call it Dakka Dakka.

Wwowowowowoowww lots of lies being thrown around in here.

Conscripts are BS5+ and WS5+, first of all.

Second of all, a "Lasgun" is not a better weapon than a "Shoota."

The Lasgun has 1 more shot at 18-24", the Shoota has one more shot 12-18", and they are the same 1-12".

So essentially they're comparable. The Shoota is also Strength 4.

Additionally, an Ork's +1 toughness is slightly better than the conscript's +1 save, as there are fewer mechanisms to ignore a model's toughness like there are to reduce its save. The only times Orks would be worse than Conscripts durability wise is if there is Str 5 weapons with -1 AP (so heavy bolters) or 0 AP (so Pulse Rifles), or if it is a Strength 8 weapon with less than -2 AP (doesn't exist).

Lastly... the rest of the ork statline blows the conscripts out of the water.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Wwowowowowoowww lots of lies being thrown around in here.

Conscripts are BS5+ and WS5+, first of all.

Second of all, a "Lasgun" is not a better weapon than a "Shoota."

The Lasgun has 1 more shot at 18-24", the Shoota has one more shot 12-18", and they are the same 1-12".

So essentially they're comparable. The Shoota is also Strength 4.

Additionally, an Ork's +1 toughness is slightly better than the conscript's +1 save, as there are fewer mechanisms to ignore a model's toughness like there are to reduce its save. The only times Orks would be worse than Conscripts durability wise is if there is Str 5 weapons with -1 AP (so heavy bolters) or 0 AP (so Pulse Rifles), or if it is a Strength 8 weapon with less than -2 AP (doesn't exist).

Lastly... the rest of the ork statline blows the conscripts out of the water.

yes at half the cost, conscripts point for point shoot better (2 lasguns > 1 shoota), are more durable (toughness offsets save a bit, but 2 wounds V 1 wound negates any gain). Orks should definitely be more expensive than conscripts, but if we compared conscripts to an ork unit of equivalent points (gretchin) they are basically better across the board (Better LD, Better S, Better T, better save, same WS, worse BS, better gun, larger squads, better buffs) I think boyz are fairly costed as is, conscripts should probably either have a worse save, or cost 4 points.

Breng77 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Wwowowowowoowww lots of lies being thrown around in here.

Conscripts are BS5+ and WS5+, first of all.

Second of all, a "Lasgun" is not a better weapon than a "Shoota."

The Lasgun has 1 more shot at 18-24", the Shoota has one more shot 12-18", and they are the same 1-12".

So essentially they're comparable. The Shoota is also Strength 4.

Additionally, an Ork's +1 toughness is slightly better than the conscript's +1 save, as there are fewer mechanisms to ignore a model's toughness like there are to reduce its save. The only times Orks would be worse than Conscripts durability wise is if there is Str 5 weapons with -1 AP (so heavy bolters) or 0 AP (so Pulse Rifles), or if it is a Strength 8 weapon with less than -2 AP (doesn't exist).

Lastly... the rest of the ork statline blows the conscripts out of the water.

yes at half the cost, conscripts point for point shoot better (2 lasguns > 1 shoota), are more durable (toughness offsets save a bit, but 2 wounds V 1 wound negates any gain). Orks should definitely be more expensive than conscripts, but if we compared conscripts to an ork unit of equivalent points (gretchin) they are basically better across the board (Better LD, Better S, Better T, better save, same WS, worse BS, better gun, larger squads, better buffs) I think boyz are fairly costed as is, conscripts should probably either have a worse save, or cost 4 points.

Well this is a separate discussion. I was mostly mad because people were misrepresenting concepts by lying about them. The "how do we nerf conscripts" has been beaten to death already.

Boyz v Conscripts is kind of a sidetrack imo. Conscripts are widely regarded as being a little 'broken' and boyz are far and away the best thing in an Ork list. Most Ork players are surely happy as larry with how boyz are in 8th. The problem is that they're sorely lacking in good ranged support and need to be spammed en masse to give a good fight.
I'd go back to the problems we have with supporting them and using alternative builds. I like very much some of the suggestions as applied to elite/heavy shooty gits.
Tankbustas work well enough with their rerolls, squigs and trukks but things like Lootas, Flash Gitz and everything that used to be blast are near enough worthless atm. Some wider access to +1 to hit and armour saves would help, as would upping the number of shots on a few things and dropping the points on some others. I also feel like Orks (not Grots) could use a rule to always hit on 6s.
Its really just about balamce and variety. Im quite happy to be shot off the table at times and do feel that Orks shouldn't be top tier but they should at least be fun, interesting, scary and on a good day, seriously bad news for anyone who strays near them.

 lolman1c wrote:
What's wrong with having a gun line ork army? This game is all about customisable armies... if other armies can pick between shooting or cc, why can't we? It also makes sens elore wise as groups like the blood axes are very intelligent and liie to use real tactics like gun lines that fall back.

Because orks are actually all about CC's. I know CC's largely gimped due to how fall back works but I think you're playing the wrong army if you want shooty/cc balanxced army.

A potential fix to ork's shooting could be a army wide special rule that prevents any to hit rolls during shooting phase fall below +5. The caption for the rule could read something like: "ork's dont aim while shooting, they're simply pointing their guns in the general direction of their enemy and firing like there's no tomorrow. Even the mightiest force fields or sturdiest cover can't take account for all the countless bullets that ricochet from all directions."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Formosa wrote:
How about a rule that means all orks hit on a 6+ regardless of modifiers, call it Dakka Dakka.

Sorry missed this post.

Orks shoot fine on a 5+. That being said a -1 to hit from the other army will horrifically cripple orks. Going to a 6+ cuts the dakka in half. Give orks a dakka dakka rule that means orks never hit on worse than a 5+. Not enough you say then drop the price of ork shooting units.

Boyz and conscripts have a very different role though. Boyz (and also kommandos/stormboyz which are actually the same) are worthy only with an entire list that is dedicated to them and so they're expected to kill a lot of stuff. Conscripts are there only to mess deepstrikes, enemy movements and make the AM list more durable. The majority of damage is inflicted by other units, not by conscripts.

Boyz have better stats but they also cost twice the points and have to cross the battlefield and actually reach combat with a good number of them to be worthy, while conscripts can just sit in AM deployed zone to get their points back.

The comparison between these two units isn't fair. Compare gretchins to conscripts, since the little fellas should have the same role of the cheap humies. But we can easily see that conscripts are 1000 times better than gretchins.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 skchsan wrote:


Because orks are actually all about CC's.

Fluffwise there are more shooty ork units than choppy ones. Orks are all about melee because only a few units are decent and they're all choppy ones. That's a shame.

I don't remember ever needing or wanting to split fire with orks to begin with in 8th

Wow GW actually listened. Not quite the expected but at least something.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/11/21/get-ready-for-chapter-approved-new-faction-rules-nov-21gw-homepage-post-3/

 skchsan wrote:
Wow GW actually listened. Not quite the expected but at least something.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/11/21/get-ready-for-chapter-approved-new-faction-rules-nov-21gw-homepage-post-3/

It's a false promise. Average of 3.3 extra hits and any negative modifier makes it impossible to get any bonus.

All "Shoota" weapons should get +1 to hit if targeting a single unit. Make it a Klan trait.