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So NOVA has happened and let us see how insane Quickjager is for declaring Conscripts op....

What was the #1 list?

Battalion Detachment
HQ - Creed, 2x Primaris Psyker
Elite - 2x Commissar, 2x Astropath
Troop - 3x 40 Conscripts
Heavy Support - 3x 3 Mortar HWT
Transport - 5x Taurox Prime w/Gatling Cannon, Hotshot Volleyguns, and Heavy Stubbers (I didn't even know they had Heavy Stubbers)

Elite (Vanguard) detachment
HQ - 2x Elysian Co. Commander
Elite - 2x 3-pair Elysian Sniper Squad
Elite - 2x Elysian Command Squad (4 plasma guns)
Elite - 2x Elysian Infantry Squad
Fast Attack - 1x 5 Seraphim
Heavy Support - 2x 3 Mortar HWT

Supreme Command Detachment
HQ - Celestine
HQ - 4x Primaris Psyker
Elite - 1x Astropath

Hmmmm looks like conscripts are pretty good right? Obviously they don't do heavy lifting, but their sheer MASS is simply too much for such a small point cost.

I'm with you on them being overly effective. That list pretty much reads as "adjust balance here" almost top to bottom. The Taurox Prime is insane dakka for it's points.

I wonder how AM players will feel when they end up being the first codex to come out with across-the-board nerfs rather than buffs.

Notice the 4 Primaris Psykers too. Full powered Smite is really powerful.

Not that Grey Knights would know.

Audustum wrote:
Notice the 4 Primaris Psykers too. Full powered Smite is really powerful.

Not that Grey Knights would know.

Full powered Smite is the reason why a lot of the Chaos lists these days take as many Malefic Lords as possible. Those guys are broken as hell.

Arachnofiend wrote:
I wonder how AM players will feel when they end up being the first codex to come out with across-the-board nerfs rather than buffs.

Pissed. We've been in a rough place since 5th edition. That said, we all want balance. Its whats best for the game. I don't mind being an underdog army.

Here is the deal with conscripts. You increase their point cost, you have to increase the point cost of guardsmen & HWT. Conscripts cannot have the same point cost as normal guardsmen. So now by increasing the cost of 1 unit, you just increased the cost of half the army. That is a problem.

Scions are overperforming for their point cost. I could see them increasing 1-2pts per model.

Basically, the reason guard are doing well right now is infantry is actually worth fielding. As they should be. IG's most plentiful resource has always been touted to be bodies & for the first time 8th edition reflects the 40k lore. Most of the other units in the codex won't be seeing play this edition until their point cost drops significantly. Take the chimera for example. Needed a 20-30% decrease in point cost last edition. It increased in point cost, now suffers -BS on the move, lost rear firing port, lost amphibious rule, & is no longer a command vehicle. LRBT needed a 20-30% point cost reduction. Instead increased in cost & in many cases its damage output decreased. Scout sentinels, which were actually a viable option in 7th lost their outflank ability puts them in a worse position than they were previously. They will largely be taken now to fill detachment requirements.

Outside of infantry the only other units worth fielding this edition are hellhounds, manticores & basilisks to a lesser degree. Outside of those units, nothing to write home about.

Bodies are nice.

Free orders that act like Stratagems that require no point cost against lists that either cannot or will not run snipers is even better.

Can you share a link to these results?

And it wouldn't surprise me if this list took first place. It's a "greatest hits" of cheese in 8th.

The #3 list also had 120 conscripts.

Arachnofiend wrote:
I wonder how AM players will feel when they end up being the first codex to come out with across-the-board nerfs rather than buffs.

Well if the nerfs were "across the board" I'd be pissed. It's conscripts and MT things that need nerfs, that's it from what I can tell. Quite a few things actually should be buffed, e.g Leman Russ (especially the Vanquisher).

The problem with these overpowered lists is not the amount of conscripts, is the possiblity to mix the most effective imperium stuff.

SoB stuff should be allowed only in Sob armies with inquisition allies at most.

AM + SoB + Primaris Psykers should be an illegal built.

Is there a link to the results?

nekooni wrote:

Arachnofiend wrote:
I wonder how AM players will feel when they end up being the first codex to come out with across-the-board nerfs rather than buffs.

Well if the nerfs were "across the board" I'd be pissed. It's conscripts and MT things that need nerfs, that's it from what I can tell. Quite a few things actually should be buffed, e.g Leman Russ (especially the Vanquisher).

MT's aren't even on that winning list, they were bumped off by Elysians.

 Quickjager wrote:
So NOVA has happened and let us see how insane Quickjager is for declaring Conscripts op...

Uh, I don't get it, are you trying to say everyone has been against you in this? Basically everyone has been calling conscripts op since the first index leaks...

Limit conscript squads to a Max of 30.

Even if you Max them, it's 180 models rather than 300. Also, smaller squad size = more careful deployment and extra buff troops needed (because keeping 4+ 30 man squads within 6" of a commissar or commander is hard work.)

Taroux prime needs a base point increase. Silly amounts of firepower for points.

Scions need a small points increase to avoid spam. 2 PPM sounds like a decent start.

Plasma as a weapon choice needs to be 10 points. It's the most effective all rounder yet the same points as a Flamer? Lolwut?

Just my 2 pence...

Yeah, the problem with scions seems to be plasma weaponry. An appropriate points bump would be useful.

Arachnofiend wrote:I wonder how AM players will feel when they end up being the first codex to come out with across-the-board nerfs rather than buffs.

Probably "just another day at the office" I have only been playing since 5th but it seems like every time IG get a new codex it is full of nerfs, GW only seems to ever buff IG by mistake.

Arkaine wrote:Bodies are nice.

Free orders that act like Stratagems that require no point cost against lists that either cannot or will not run snipers is even better.

I am not 100% sure what your trying to say here, but it reads like you think orders are free and are analogous to stratagems? In either case orders are not the problem for two reasons, first if they were OP then all guard infantry would be OP, and second orders are very similar to the buff auras that every army has, they just trade affecting everyone in range to at most two units in range for increased versatility and a loss of the ability to stack.

Honestly in my opinion, the best way to balance conscripts would be to bring back weapons that are actually good at killing them and not good at killing elite infantry, though I am not sure that is possible in the eighth edition rule set.

Maxing the amount of conscripts to 20 per unit and change the summary execution to NOT work on conscripts would be mutch better then giving them a point increase.

Iike it has been said, if conscripts goes up in points, regular guard has to allso and they cant as they are in the perfect spot right now.

as for scions and taurox, deffo increase the point cost so that some of the other stuff can actualy be used when they get a point cost reduction.

 FrozenDwarf wrote:
Maxing the amount of conscripts to 20 per unit and change the summary execution to NOT work on conscripts would be mutch better then giving them a point increase.

Iike it has been said, if conscripts goes up in points, regular guard has to allso and they cant as they are in the perfect spot right now.

as for scions and taurox, deffo increase the point cost so that some of the other stuff can actualy be used when they get a point cost reduction.

Honestly, just removing summary execution would do the job. Without it they would crumple under small arms fire, as they should.

 Commissar Benny wrote:

Arachnofiend wrote:
I wonder how AM players will feel when they end up being the first codex to come out with across-the-board nerfs rather than buffs.

Pissed. We've been in a rough place since 5th edition. That said, we all want balance. Its whats best for the game. I don't mind being an underdog army.

Here is the deal with conscripts. You increase their point cost, you have to increase the point cost of guardsmen & HWT. Conscripts cannot have the same point cost as normal guardsmen. So now by increasing the cost of 1 unit, you just increased the cost of half the army. That is a problem.

Scions are overperforming for their point cost. I could see them increasing 1-2pts per model.

Basically, the reason guard are doing well right now is infantry is actually worth fielding. As they should be. IG's most plentiful resource has always been touted to be bodies & for the first time 8th edition reflects the 40k lore. Most of the other units in the codex won't be seeing play this edition until their point cost drops significantly. Take the chimera for example. Needed a 20-30% decrease in point cost last edition. It increased in point cost, now suffers -BS on the move, lost rear firing port, lost amphibious rule, & is no longer a command vehicle. LRBT needed a 20-30% point cost reduction. Instead increased in cost & in many cases its damage output decreased. Scout sentinels, which were actually a viable option in 7th lost their outflank ability puts them in a worse position than they were previously. They will largely be taken now to fill detachment requirements.

Outside of infantry the only other units worth fielding this edition are hellhounds, manticores & basilisks to a lesser degree. Outside of those units, nothing to write home about.

Why can't conscripts be the same points cost of regular guardsmen? I mean, it's a lame fix, I'd much prefer a more creative nerf like limited benefit from commissars (something like a "Mad rout" roll where the commissar can only stop up to X casualties from morale and above that point the conscripts run away en masse anyway)or limited access to orders (roll vs Leadership to take an order). But as it is currently, they should be the same price. Or more. The ability to take so many of them is a huge benefit.

"Here is the deal with conscripts. You increase their point cost, you have to increase the point cost of guardsmen & HWT. Conscripts cannot have the same point cost as normal guardsmen. So now by increasing the cost of 1 unit, you just increased the cost of half the army. That is a problem."

IMO that what needs to happen. a 5+ save wound with a rapid fire weapon is a lot better than what gaurd are paying for it. Really Gaurd are underpaying by 10%-30% on practically every unit in the index.

 Xenomancers wrote:
"Here is the deal with conscripts. You increase their point cost, you have to increase the point cost of guardsmen & HWT. Conscripts cannot have the same point cost as normal guardsmen. So now by increasing the cost of 1 unit, you just increased the cost of half the army. That is a problem."

IMO that what needs to happen. a 5+ save wound with a rapid fire weapon is a lot better than what gaurd are paying for it. Really Gaurd are underpaying by 10%-30% on practically every unit in the index.

With the way Conscripts are so powerful is anyone even using normal Guardsmen anymore anyway? I mean we don't really know if a Guardsman is overpowered because no one is using them as the Conscripts are better. Conscripts need to fill a different niche instead of just "doing the Guardsmen's job a little cheaper." Otherwise it's a no-brainer. Guardsmen aren't better enough that they're worth the price over conscripts. They're effectively just conscripts with a little better stats, which isn't worth the price hike.

 Xenomancers wrote:
"Here is the deal with conscripts. You increase their point cost, you have to increase the point cost of guardsmen & HWT. Conscripts cannot have the same point cost as normal guardsmen. So now by increasing the cost of 1 unit, you just increased the cost of half the army. That is a problem."

IMO that what needs to happen. a 5+ save wound with a rapid fire weapon is a lot better than what gaurd are paying for it. Really Gaurd are underpaying by 10%-30% on practically every unit in the index.

The decreased point cost of conscripts/guardsmen came at a cost. We lost our platoons. So we can no longer combine squads. That is actually a pretty big deal. I'd much rather they just give us our platoons back, it would solve 99% of the complaints regarding conscripts. Previously you could only take conscripts if you fielded an infantry platoon. Creating this tax would effectively increase the cost of conscripts while not increasing their point cost. They have been 3ppm for many years now. It is only now that they are not locked behind the platoon prerequisite that people are having issues with them.

 Commissar Benny wrote:
It is only now that they are not locked behind the platoon prerequisite that people are having issues with them.

Well, more importantly now that they can't break and can abuse the new way commissars work to a ridiculous degree. Honestly, if commissars couldn't enforce order in the unit at a cost of 3 points, they wouldn't at all be the problem they are. He's doing the same thing 2CP would for 3 points.

Commissars have always had Summary Execution though. Just before it stopped the whole squad from running off the table instead of a handful of extra models.

There was one edition where commissars were upgrades to infantry squads instead of ICs, but in that edition priests granted Fearless so there was functionally no difference (except the priest didn't blam a model to do it).

There are only three things that have changed about conscripts:
1: they were pulled out of platoons
2: a 5+ save got a little harder to remove
3: they gained the ability to hurt T6+

Of those, two apply to every other infantry model in the game. Other than that they're the same as they've always been.

 ross-128 wrote:
Commissars have always had Summary Execution though. Just before it stopped the whole squad from running off the table instead of a handful of extra models.

There was one edition where commissars were upgrades to infantry squads instead of ICs, but in that edition priests granted Fearless so there was functionally no difference (except the priest didn't blam a model to do it).

There are only three things that have changed about conscripts:
1: they were pulled out of platoons
2: a 5+ save got a little harder to remove
3: they gained the ability to hurt T6+

Of those, two apply to every other infantry model in the game. Other than that they're the same as they've always been.

You realise that the game is completely different, right? Many many things that used to be able to wipe squads are now dealing multiple damage instead. Wiping squads is slightly harder and is mitigated with morale allowing you to wipe larger squads. Commissars are stopping that. End result is that even if the conscriots had the exact same of everything, they are now better. You can't just compare their stats in the old game to their stats in the new.

So take away Summary Execution and reducing them to 20 per unit, wtf is their purpose?

BTW, the list was full of cheese to begin with, it ain't just conscripts.

I mean.. one change which is pretty big is the the way concscripts hurt EVERYTHING now? Yeah it's bad odds on most things but chucking large amount of dice can produce funky results.

Anyone who doesn't think conscripts are OP like Gulliman needs their 40k competitive license torn up.

I don't think anyone said "conscripts are fine."

I think people are usually willing to give nerfs to conscripts one way or another; for example, I am okay with removing orders.

What those of us "defending" Conscripts were defending against was not "nerf conscripts" but rather "Nerf conscripts so hard they're back to uselessness."

Another nerf I'd be okay with, for example, is making them 1 per 2 infantry squads, like they used to be. Another is making them lose D6 instead of 1 for the Summary Execution ability.

But more than 1 of those nerfs at a time is ridiculous imo.