Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Units are generally dying like flies right now. Average pts damage per pt firing is something like 0.5-1.0 for many of the good units with at least midranged (12+'') weapons firing at a given appropriate target. Conscripts are an exception to this trend, the very best midranged anti-conscript weapons are around 0.2-0.3 in that scale. I would prefer to see a functional nerf to conscripts where almost everything else gains survivability instead, barring that they need to be less survivable to achieve balance.

I think we should all take a moment to appreciate that "Send in the Next Wave" is no longer a thing

I quite like the solution of reducing squad sizes - Conscript squads over the size of 20 always nagged me in some way. Combine that with no orders and I think that's likely to solve the issue.

Shame that Platoons were taken out. I doubt Conscripts would be an issue if the Platoon system was still in place...

 Marmatag wrote:
I'll go with what i've said before, as a criticism of 8th edition in general:

1. No model, costing less than 6 points, should get a save. For their points, Orks should be the most survivable in terms of cheap, high casualty infantry. Therefore, Orks should be a benchmark for being the *best* at being a wall of bodies. Brimstone horrors, Conscripts, and anything less than 6 points should not get a save, period, based on 8th edition internal balance. Orks should set the bar here.

2. Smite in its base form is simply too strong. Instead of d3/d6, it should be 1damage, and on 11+, d3. Magnus should be d3/d6. Anything that costs less than 60 points should NOT have full strength smite, if they insist on keeping smite in its current form. Sorry, that's just too strong. And that applies to *every* army.

3. Update the cost of plasma and other weapons to be properly costed. I'm sorry but even with that, Hot-shot guns are pretty damn good, they'd have to be adjusted. I would also increase the cost of drones.

4. Alter character rules so they cannot be targeted ONLY if there is a non-character unit closer. As opposed to one character screening for another.

5. Ban forgeworld completely from matched play. I know people disagree, because unit X isn't overpowered, but they have too many strong units for competitive play.

1.) Not sure I agree here, what I would rather see is more use of the lower toughness scale. I would say perhaps no save should be better than 5+. But if conscripts were T2 with a 5+ I think they would be ok. If brims were T1 with a 5++ or 6++, I think they would be ok. I think horrors always should have been Blues at T2 and Brims a T1.

2.) Smite is ok but I agree that it should be weaker for anything under 60 points. Part of me wishes it were similar to some old powers where you could invest "spells per turn" to make it better.

3.) probably true,

4.) I think that is a fine fix.

5.) I'm not sure on this one, I think it largely depends on how FW addresses balance issues.

RogueApiary wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Upping points across the board for IG is an adequate solution, provided we see what Regiment rules they will get. But without Regiment rules, I don't think they're worth 5ppm.

Are you serious?

Name the guard infantry unit that isn't better than equivalently priced units in other armies. Legitimately curious. I've got ogryns... and that's really about it.

Name a Guard character unit that IS better than an equivalently priced unit in other armies. Guard have good, cheap infantry because we don't have access to gak like Magnus or the Yncarne. FFS, Marines have a better MAIN BATTLE TANK than we do.

Super-heavy tanks are your equivalent units. Speaking of beast HQ's...can't you take HQ tanks that bosts their BS and give orders and stuff whilst having better toughness and weapon selection than marine predators?

RogueApiary wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Upping points across the board for IG is an adequate solution, provided we see what Regiment rules they will get. But without Regiment rules, I don't think they're worth 5ppm.

Are you serious?

Name the guard infantry unit that isn't better than equivalently priced units in other armies. Legitimately curious. I've got ogryns... and that's really about it.

Name a Guard character unit that IS better than an equivalently priced unit in other armies. Guard have good, cheap infantry because we don't have access to gak like Magnus or the Yncarne. FFS, Marines have a better MAIN BATTLE TANK than we do.

Commissar > Runtherd, equivalently priced unit with essentially the exact same role. Commissar is lightyears better. Don't get into tanks, guard has the best tanks period.

As an ig player I have to agree, conscripts need to be changed. As others have said they are not trained solders, they are criminals given the choice to fight or rot in prison, they are civilians forced to fight for their homes, they are normal people who have the unfortunate luck of being caught in a war zone who are given little other choice but to fight.

The commissioner should still work on them, not arguing against that. That's a commissioners job, to keep the other units in line. But it would make more sense if when he executes then they lose 1 model and use his leadership for the test and not just auto pass. Thats for all guard units, not just conscripts.

Also I agree if your playing guard you should not get access to any sob units. Some parts of the indexes are designed around support like inquisition, you can't really field an inquisition force by itself it would need access to either guard or sob or gk because that's how they work. But guard with Celestine make no sense to me, she is a sob and should only be taken if your primary detachment is sob.

40k has always had issues with allies and making rules that make sense with the fluff. They tried something this time that allowed imperium players to more freely work their different armies together but it's not really as easy to Balance because of this. I agree with the earlier sentiment, match play should be one codex /index army at a time. I should not be able to take terminators in my guard army, I am the Imperial guard for crying out loud. If I want terminators I should grab my space Marines.

 General Annoyance wrote:
I think we should all take a moment to appreciate that "Send in the Next Wave" is no longer a thing

Only because AM doesn't have stratagems yet. They gave Chaos their own "Send in the Next Wave" for cultists.

Breng77 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Arkaine wrote:
I shot a 400-pt blob of Noise Marines at conscripts with Prescience, the most shooty unit in all of Chaos, all featuring sonic blasters for triple shots that ignore cover.

Killed half the squad. Next turn killed the other half. Had morale been a thing, the entire squad would have died turn 1.

Those conscripts only cost half the points of my Noise Marines.

It's kind of a problem when objective secured guys can outlast any form of shooting your army can muster point for point. The only unit that can outkill Noise Marines are the Khorne Berzerkers and that's only in close combat with plenty of opportunity to shoot them off the board.

Drowned in bodies is the Imperial Guard thing and it's presently much too effective since in the few turns the game lasts you won't even kill all the conscripts, much less the rest of his tanks and artillery, the stuff that actually threatens your forces. If you fail to kill the conscripts, they just park on objectives and win by Da Rulez.

See I hear about stuff like this, and I wonder why people think it is bad.

Why should every unit in the game be able to 1-turn delete what it is designed to do? I mean, a 3-lascannon HWS is a dedicated AT-unit in AM, why can't it one-shot a Rhino off the board?

Yes, things can still have roles within an army (anti-infantry, anti-tank, high mobility, whatever), but that doesn't mean they should simply get a free "I delete the unit as long as it is the one I counter" card they can play every turn.

Conscripts, even after the nerf, should take at least one shooting phase to shift, because if they take less than one shooting phase to shift, then they are useless as a screen.

The issue is that guard artillery can 1 turn delete units, and if it takes more than 1 turn to kill a single conscript squad (say it takes 2.) then anyone taking say 3 conscript units becomes functionally invulnerable for the entire game to any close range combat. I would argue that say half an armies worth of offense (at peak efficiency for a designed task) should be able to delete a unit that costs under 200 points

More than one unit of Guard artillery can 1-turn delete units. I specifically said "one unit" should not be able to defeat "one other unit."

And they only become invulnerable to the game if the game is "kill the conscripts." The game isn't that, FYI. Kill one squad, charge through the gap it left, and tear up everything behind them, just as one thoughtful example. And what you mean depends entirely on army size. If we've 200 point armies, then absolutely no unit worth half an army's cost should be able to delete < 200 pts.

Arkaine wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Why should every unit in the game be able to 1-turn delete what it is designed to do? I mean, a 3-lascannon HWS is some of the best anti-tank in AM, why can't it one-shot a Rhino off the board?

I didn't say anything about it should be able to 1-turn delete anything. My twice the cost elite unit was firing at a unit it was HIGHLY EFFICIENT against, the BEST IN MY FACTION at killing, yet could only kill 1/4 of its point cost. For the same cost as my Noise Marines, you can field two 50-man conscript blobs and it would take this elite unit FOUR TURNS of shooting to erradicate them all in a 5-7 turn game. Assuming you don't shoot back.

Four turns for two squads sounds about right, actually. 2 turns to delete a squad seems reasonable, rather than one turn. Deleting units in one turn is part of the problem, not part of the solution.

Arkaine wrote:
That's the issue... even with my Sorcerer backing me up, cutting my misses in half, it wasn't enough to matter. I have literally no better unit to use for the task either. Meanwhile, if you drop Magnus on the board, my Obliterators can wipe him out in 1 or 2 turns. See that Baneblade you brought? It took 12 wounds the turn they arrived. I can spend some CP to shoot again and finish it off. Tanks die to melta or lascannon spam, even if it takes 2-3 turns or 2-3 units. Heck, anti-tank tends to be CHEAPER than the tanks because counter units would be kind of absurd if they cost you more than what they were countering.

Right. I am saying no-unit should be one-shotted. Part of the problem with 8th is that (as you point out) it is certainly possible to one-shot units. That needs to stop, not become more prolific.

Oh, and you yourself admit that it will take a unit 2-3 turns, or 2-3 of said units, to kill conscripts. So they're literally the same as what you're saying about the tank. And antitank is absolutely not cheaper than the tanks... because 3 Lascannon HWTs is 72 pts, not 70, and it only gets worse if you talk about anti-tank units like the Vanquisher or Devil Dog.

Arkaine wrote:
Conscripts don't have much in the way of counters and it's mostly due to that Commissar negating their losses. Killing him is all but impossible since deep strikes don't work this edition, can't shoot him directly except with my non-existant snipers (can we borrow the Vindicare?), and the psychic powers that can target freely only have a small chance of actually doing the job, assuming he's not behind a building where you can't see him.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Conscripts, even after the nerf, should take at least one shooting phase to shift, because if they take less than one shooting phase to shift, then they are useless as a screen.

Currently they take four turns to shift. If I use my elite units named the Conscript Crushers. If I used my similar cost conscript squad, the Cultists, they'd just be sitting there all day flailing at each other until I was forced to take more morale than they do and lose to attrition.

Coupled with their ability to receive free Stratagem effects without CP expenditure in the form of Orders, Conscripts are the most bargain units in the game with plenty of advantages and staying power.

You and I agree - Orders need to be removed from conscripts. And one unit takes 2 turns, just like I have been saying is fine (and apparently you agree but only with tanks (??)). Four turns is for two units, which is in fact the same as saying one unit in two turns.

 General Annoyance wrote:
I think we should all take a moment to appreciate that "Send in the Next Wave" is no longer a thing

Dont joke about that it may come back as a stratagem

Azuza001 wrote:
As an ig player I have to agree, conscripts need to be changed. As others have said they are not trained solders, they are criminals given the choice to fight or rot in prison, they are civilians forced to fight for their homes, they are normal people who have the unfortunate luck of being caught in a war zone who are given little other choice but to fight.

BZZZT. WRONG.

Conscripts are those you have mentioned(and really, why are we thinking that Hive Gangers aren't able to fight?) plus recent inductees from the PDFs of a planet.
What are PDFs?

Oh that's right...
TRAINED. SOLDIERS.

Also I agree if your playing guard you should not get access to any sob units. Some parts of the indexes are designed around support like inquisition, you can't really field an inquisition force by itself it would need access to either guard or sob or gk because that's how they work. But guard with Celestine make no sense to me, she is a sob and should only be taken if your primary detachment is sob.

She's a Living Saint. People rally around them.

40k has always had issues with allies and making rules that make sense with the fluff. They tried something this time that allowed imperium players to more freely work their different armies together but it's not really as easy to Balance because of this. I agree with the earlier sentiment, match play should be one codex /index army at a time. I should not be able to take terminators in my guard army, I am the Imperial guard for crying out loud. If I want terminators I should grab my space Marines.

Nah.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Arkaine wrote:
I shot a 400-pt blob of Noise Marines at conscripts with Prescience, the most shooty unit in all of Chaos, all featuring sonic blasters for triple shots that ignore cover.

Killed half the squad. Next turn killed the other half. Had morale been a thing, the entire squad would have died turn 1.

Those conscripts only cost half the points of my Noise Marines.

It's kind of a problem when objective secured guys can outlast any form of shooting your army can muster point for point. The only unit that can outkill Noise Marines are the Khorne Berzerkers and that's only in close combat with plenty of opportunity to shoot them off the board.

Drowned in bodies is the Imperial Guard thing and it's presently much too effective since in the few turns the game lasts you won't even kill all the conscripts, much less the rest of his tanks and artillery, the stuff that actually threatens your forces. If you fail to kill the conscripts, they just park on objectives and win by Da Rulez.

See I hear about stuff like this, and I wonder why people think it is bad.

Why should every unit in the game be able to 1-turn delete what it is designed to do? I mean, a 3-lascannon HWS is a dedicated AT-unit in AM, why can't it one-shot a Rhino off the board?

Yes, things can still have roles within an army (anti-infantry, anti-tank, high mobility, whatever), but that doesn't mean they should simply get a free "I delete the unit as long as it is the one I counter" card they can play every turn.

Conscripts, even after the nerf, should take at least one shooting phase to shift, because if they take less than one shooting phase to shift, then they are useless as a screen.

The issue is that guard artillery can 1 turn delete units, and if it takes more than 1 turn to kill a single conscript squad (say it takes 2.) then anyone taking say 3 conscript units becomes functionally invulnerable for the entire game to any close range combat. I would argue that say half an armies worth of offense (at peak efficiency for a designed task) should be able to delete a unit that costs under 200 points

More than one unit of Guard artillery can 1-turn delete units. I specifically said "one unit" should not be able to defeat "one other unit."

And they only become invulnerable to the game if the game is "kill the conscripts." The game isn't that, FYI. Kill one squad, charge through the gap it left, and tear up everything behind them, just as one thoughtful example. And what you mean depends entirely on army size. If we've 200 point armies, then absolutely no unit worth half an army's cost should be able to delete < 200 pts.

A single mantacore is more than able to 1 turn delete plenty of units. and 3 of them is the same cost as the 400+ point unit described here. Are you telling me 3 mantacores cannot single turn delete many vehicles in the game? You really need to look at points not units. A single acolyte is 1 unit and realistically should be 1 shotted by almost anything in the game. A single devastator squad with 4 lascannons is not unlikely to delete many vehicles in the game in a single turn. The Shadowsword can pretty much delete most tanks in the game.



As for half the army I am talking 2k points. So 1k points of my army should wipe a conscript squad in a single turn assuming they are meant to be anti-infantry.

For the "play the mission response" that only works if you can survive the shooting from the AM player. Otherwise kill the conscripts literally is the game. Charging through gaps assumes those gaps exist, and are not just covered by the other conscript squads.

There are fixes that need to be made to anti-infantry firepower in the game.

 Kanluwen wrote:
BZZZT. WRONG.

Conscripts are those you have mentioned(and really, why are we thinking that Hive Gangers aren't able to fight?) plus recent inductees from the PDFs of a planet.
What are PDFs?

Oh that's right...
TRAINED. SOLDIERS.

The nature of Conscripts vary from case to case. Often they're just simply Guardsmen who haven't completed their training in time, and who are desperately needed on the battlefield. While perhaps they could still follow orders nearly as effectively as regular Guardsmen lore wise, removing the orders option sounds more logical than removing a Commissar's ability to shoot them in the head when they don't obey their command.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Four turns for two squads sounds about right, actually. 2 turns to delete a squad seems reasonable, rather than one turn. Deleting units in one turn is part of the problem, not part of the solution.

Except we're talking about the best in my army at deleting units of conscripts. Every normal unit I have for fighting conscripts would 4-5 turns to wipe them out. It's 2 turns to delete a squad with a TWICE COSTED ELITE SQUAD THAT TRIPLE FIRES!

You're acting like if I drop a squad of 10 terminators onto your Leman Russ, it should somehow survive the turn. Deleting a squad in one turn is MORE than possible with sufficient force. The issue is how much "sufficient force" is required to kill Conscripts is horribly disproportionate to every other unit.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Right. I am saying no-unit should be one-shotted. Part of the problem with 8th is that (as you point out) it is certainly possible to one-shot units. That needs to stop, not become more prolific.

Except the units I mentioned cost less than the units they counter. Three obliterators are only 195 points. Yet they can over the course of a few turns kill their points worth in tanks easily, especially that 24 wound megatank sitting in front of them or that 18 wound primarch. Conscripts have the reverse outcome. It takes an overwhelming force that exceeds their point cost multiple turns to kill them. Things are DEFINITELY capable of being one-shotted when zerged with supreme firepower and should remain that way unless you want your 200 pt conscript squad to tank 1500 pts of shooting and still be alive at the end of the turn.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Oh, and you yourself admit that it will take a unit 2-3 turns, or 2-3 of said units, to kill conscripts. So they're literally the same as what you're saying about the tank. And antitank is absolutely not cheaper than the tanks... because 3 Lascannon HWTs is 72 pts, not 70, and it only gets worse if you talk about anti-tank units like the Vanquisher or Devil Dog.

No, I didn't. I said it takes FOUR turns to kill back a Noise Marines' points worth of conscripts. Also, Anti-tank is definitely cheaper than the tank because you're forgetting the guns for the tanks. A Rhino may only be 70 pt for the chassis but it also has a combi-bolter that it must take, putting it at 72 pts, same as your THREE SQUADS OF LASCANNONS and that's if it takes none of its other weapon options. Also, I didn't say the 1-turn-1-shot was what was cheaper, even a single heavy weapon can counter a tank over the course of a few turns. A predator, an actual main battle tank that lascannons would be used against instead of troop transports, costs 90 pts base but must also pay for a 49 pt autocannon, making the cheapest predator cost 139 pts. If you add side lascannons, the cost of a predator jumps to 189 pts. Lascannons for marines are 25 pts and can go on any 13pt Havoc, making them extremely cost effective for murdering their points worth in tanks.

Conscripts on the other hand take four turns of shooting for a similarly costed unit to wipe them. A single squad of conscripts dies in 2 turns to a unit that costs twice what they do. Imagine if it took you 2 turns and 6 Lascannon HWTs (12 shots total) to kill a single Rhino. That's what we're talking about here.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

You and I agree - Orders need to be removed from conscripts. And one unit takes 2 turns, just like I have been saying is fine (and apparently you agree but only with tanks (??)). Four turns is for two units, which is in fact the same as saying one unit in two turns.

No it's not the same as saying 1 unit in two turns. The unit shooting that unit is twice the point cost. If you want me to cut my Noise Marine squad in half and use a 10-man squad, same cost as the conscripts, it now take 4 turns of shooting assuming I suffer no casualties to kill that one squad. I also used a Sorcerer to buff them with Prescience, removing that increases the time to kill them to 5 turns. One should not require 2 turns with TWICE the point value shooting at it WITH BUFFS to kill a unit.

To put it into perspective, imagine if you had your own unit trying to kill mine. Mine is a Rhino costing 72 pts. To be as fair as conscripts, you need to use 2 turns with twice the point cost to kill my one Rhino. So in other words, 144 pts of SIX Lascannon HWTs each firing for TWO TURNS at my Rhino just to kill it. If that's what you want this game to be then I willingly accept my Rhino's buff to 20 wounds.

SilverAlien wrote:
Name the guard infantry unit that isn't better than equivalently priced units in other armies. Legitimately curious. I've got ogryns... and that's really about it.

Guard has more than infantry, and "across the board" doesn't indicate "infantry only".

Breng77 wrote:
Don't get into tanks, guard has the best tanks period.

Not in 8th edition.

Hell, Space Marines have better tnaks than Guard do, by far.

 Melissia wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Don't get into tanks, guard has the best tanks period.

Not in 8th edition.

Who has better tanks? Eldar?

 Marmatag wrote:
Who has better tanks? Eldar?

Just to start?
Space Marines. Quad-las predators are better than leman russ battle tanks, point per point.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Don't get into tanks, guard has the best tanks period.

Not in 8th edition.

Who has better tanks? Eldar?

Probably eldar.

but i figure it would ultimately depend on what you think is best

T8 is pretty significant. wounding on 3s vs 4s. or 5s vs 6s.

But then Lemons dont have the BEST offensive capabilities.

Id say the Best Offense would go to Dark eldar glass cannon boats.

For the "across the board" thing, I meant infantry and all that that entails, in order to avoid having to make the list I am making now:

Conscripts, IG squads, HWTs, scions, veterans, command squads, company commanders, platoon commanders, lord commissars, ratlings, and special weapon squads.

And those should only go up by a point if the Regiment rules for them are pretty darn awesome (like the RG -1 to hit, or the Salamanders, or the like).

 Melissia wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Who has better tanks? Eldar?

Just to start?
Space Marines. Quad-las predators are better than leman russ battle tanks, point per point.

Quad-Las Predators are not as good as Manticores or Wyverns. Or are we not considering those as tanks?

Why don't you see conscripts screening for Quad-Las Predators...

I don't know who started the myth of the quad-las predator, but they get absolutely stomped in the current meta. You might see them in a Guilliman parking lot but that's about it.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Who has better tanks? Eldar?

Just to start?
Space Marines. Quad-las predators are better than leman russ battle tanks, point per point.

Quad-Las Predators are not as good as Manticores or Wyverns. Or you'd see conscripts screening for Quad-Las Predators.

I don't know who started the myth of the quad-las predator, but they get absolutely stomped in the current meta. You might see them in a Guilliman parking lot but that's about it.

Manticores and Wyverns are artillery, not tanks. Armoured Regiments would have 0 in the fluff.

Minor nitpick, but important to those of us who want to run tanks and not artillery.

Azuza001 wrote:
But guard with Celestine make no sense to me, she is a sob and should only be taken if your primary detachment is sob.

1) There is no such thing as a 'Primary Detachment'.

2) You know her aura specifically affects IG units, right? it kinda implies that she's meant to be taken with them as well as with SoB.

3) If we're not allowed to take St. Celestine with IG, can we have rules for our own Living Saint? You know, like we do in the fluff.

 Marmatag wrote:
Quad-Las Predators are not as good as Manticores or Wyverns

Last time I did the math, they were both quite similar, with the predator being far more reliable damage output. But neither of those were used in the list shown in the first post-- not a single wyvern nor manticore was in it.

I've been thinking about conscripts, and here's my idea on how to balance them:

- Max squad size of 30
- Commissars cause 1D6 casualties rather than 1
- Cannot contest objectives
- Do not get the benefit of cover

Thoughts? Doesn't increase points, but limits what they can do and their durability.

 Freddy Kruger wrote:
I've been thinking about conscripts, and here's my idea on how to balance them:

- Max squad size of 30
- Commissars cause 1D6 casualties rather than 1
- Cannot contest objectives
- Do not get the benefit of cover

Thoughts?

1) Fair enough, alone and with no other changes.
2) Fair enough, alone and with no other changes.
3) What? Why? This is one of their major functions and uses.
4) This pretty much already happens in 8th, I can barely think of any terrain pieces large enough to hold 30-50 models completely, and all it takes is 1 off by itself standing outside and the whole squad loses it (at least until the next shooting attack).

Overnerf.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Who has better tanks? Eldar?

Just to start?
Space Marines. Quad-las predators are better than leman russ battle tanks, point per point.

Quad-Las Predators are not as good as Manticores or Wyverns. Or you'd see conscripts screening for Quad-Las Predators.

I don't know who started the myth of the quad-las predator, but they get absolutely stomped in the current meta. You might see them in a Guilliman parking lot but that's about it.

Manticores and Wyverns are artillery, not tanks. Armoured Regiments would have 0 in the fluff.

Minor nitpick, but important to those of us who want to run tanks and not artillery.

That's bad reasoning.

 Melissia wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Who has better tanks? Eldar?

Just to start?
Space Marines. Quad-las predators are better than leman russ battle tanks, point per point.

and worse than Mantacores, Basilisks, Taurox primes...

 General Annoyance wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
BZZZT. WRONG.

Conscripts are those you have mentioned(and really, why are we thinking that Hive Gangers aren't able to fight?) plus recent inductees from the PDFs of a planet.
What are PDFs?

Oh that's right...
TRAINED. SOLDIERS.

The nature of Conscripts vary from case to case. Often they're just simply Guardsmen who haven't completed their training in time, and who are desperately needed on the battlefield. While perhaps they could still follow orders nearly as effectively as regular Guardsmen lore wise, removing the orders option sounds more logical than removing a Commissar's ability to shoot them in the head when they don't obey their command.

"That nature of Conscripts varying from case to case" is hogwash. We're not getting different types of Conscripts to cover each "type"(and really, the idea that they're "simply Guardsmen who haven't completed their training in time" is just as silly of a justification for them losing access to Orders).

Commissars are a thing, the whiny "Guard have to be played as hordes! with Commissars! because Russians!" people wanted them to stick around and they have.

What sounds more logical, to me, is forcing people to accept that TAC lists don't cover every extreme. They didn't in the past, and they don't now.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Who has better tanks? Eldar?

Just to start?
Space Marines. Quad-las predators are better than leman russ battle tanks, point per point.

Quad-Las Predators are not as good as Manticores or Wyverns. Or you'd see conscripts screening for Quad-Las Predators.

I don't know who started the myth of the quad-las predator, but they get absolutely stomped in the current meta. You might see them in a Guilliman parking lot but that's about it.

Manticores and Wyverns are artillery, not tanks. Armoured Regiments would have 0 in the fluff.

Minor nitpick, but important to those of us who want to run tanks and not artillery.

That's bad reasoning.

Why? If I say "I'm running a tank company" would you say "Why don't you run Basilisks and Manticores?" and if you did say that, what's stopping you from taking the next logical step and saying "Have you tried playing conscripts?"

As a tank company player, I'll never be fielding IG artillery. It's unfluffy, and it's not tanks, despite the fact that many people don't understand the distinction between self-propelled artillery and tanks.

Breng77 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Who has better tanks? Eldar?

Just to start?
Space Marines. Quad-las predators are better than leman russ battle tanks, point per point.

and worse than Mantacores, Basilisks, Taurox primes...

Not really for the first two.