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 Gamgee wrote:
I know, but currently there are too many of them. You can take a vanguard detachment and get as much of that slot as you need for example.

There needs to be only a single detachment and an allied detachment again like in 7th and everyone and every race has to adhere to it for maximum balance.

Problem is it still doesnt stop a Imperial army from going ham on mixing and matching.

but ultimately this is the kinda thing that the Touny organizer needs to deal with not GW.

GW can deal with internal balance though as they should.

Audustum wrote:
The only tank I've seen do any good is the Relic Falchion. Survivable enough to live to shoot and can almost drop an Imperial Knight in a single turn on average.

Yeah it's a freaking monster for sure. If you run it with Azreal it's really hard to kill - if you run it with Guilliman you will likely destroy their 2 best units a turn - if they brought anything big - it's dead.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Desubot wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
I know, but currently there are too many of them. You can take a vanguard detachment and get as much of that slot as you need for example.

There needs to be only a single detachment and an allied detachment again like in 7th and everyone and every race has to adhere to it for maximum balance.

Problem is it still doesnt stop a Imperial army from going ham on mixing and matching.

but ultimately this is the kinda thing that the Touny organizer needs to deal with not GW.

GW can deal with internal balance though as they should.

I agree - torny organizers need to do more to help balance. Single faction needs to be stressed more. Perhaps even reducing detachments to 1 or 2. Plus outright point fixes for the most obnoxious units - like conscripts - manticores - ect.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Audustum wrote:
The only tank I've seen do any good is the Relic Falchion. Survivable enough to live to shoot and can almost drop an Imperial Knight in a single turn on average.

Yeah it's a freaking monster for sure. If you run it with Azreal it's really hard to kill - if you run it with Guilliman you will likely destroy their 2 best units a turn - if they brought anything big - it's dead.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Desubot wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
I know, but currently there are too many of them. You can take a vanguard detachment and get as much of that slot as you need for example.

There needs to be only a single detachment and an allied detachment again like in 7th and everyone and every race has to adhere to it for maximum balance.

Problem is it still doesnt stop a Imperial army from going ham on mixing and matching.

but ultimately this is the kinda thing that the Touny organizer needs to deal with not GW.

GW can deal with internal balance though as they should.

I agree - torny organizers need to do more to help balance. Single faction needs to be stressed more. Perhaps even reducing detachments to 1 or 2. Plus outright point fixes for the most obnoxious units - like conscripts - manticores - ect.

I mean Internally Guard is.... well pretty much scions or Conscripts

no one really bothers with the other infantry options as Scions are super points efficient for special deep striking weapons while conscripts are points efferent for bodies on the board and auramancy.

(though scions are not imperial guard right?)

i figure it would be simple enough to just reduce conscript sizes to 20 max. it takes up more slots and gains less from orders.

I've seen it put forth that there should be a limit to how much can be spent on detachments of other faction in soup lists this could also work no? In tandem with tournament organisers doing stuff to limit detachments.

Edit
If GW did limit detachments for matched play they can always say you and your opponent may choose to use the standard detachment (or whatever) or pick and build any that you want within the existing rules. This way GW provides an answer but allows the players to pick what they want as usual. It wouldn't upset the current users of the system who use it more casually and it would enable tournaments to use the standard ones if they so chose.

 Gamgee wrote:
I've seen it put forth that there should be a limit to how much can be spent on detachments of other faction in soup lists this could also work no? In tandem with tournament organisers doing stuff to limit detachments.

It wont work unless there was a limitation on the largest keyword.

IMPERIUM covers a LOT of stuff.

In that case we need to brainstorm how.

RogueApiary wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

RogueApiary wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

RogueApiary wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Upping points across the board for IG is an adequate solution, provided we see what Regiment rules they will get. But without Regiment rules, I don't think they're worth 5ppm.

Are you serious?

Name the guard infantry unit that isn't better than equivalently priced units in other armies. Legitimately curious. I've got ogryns... and that's really about it.

Name a Guard character unit that IS better than an equivalently priced unit in other armies. Guard have good, cheap infantry because we don't have access to gak like Magnus or the Yncarne. FFS, Marines have a better MAIN BATTLE TANK than we do.

Super-heavy tanks are your equivalent units. Speaking of beast HQ's...can't you take HQ tanks that bosts their BS and give orders and stuff whilst having better toughness and weapon selection than marine predators?

The super heavies are garbage compared to Magnus. You literally can't move them or you hit on 5's and the second the enemy does the equivalent of a Leman Russ' damage they can pretty much be ignored the rest of the game since then they hit on 5's standing still and 6's on the move.

Oh, you mean the HQ tank that never sees turn one (turn 2 if I'm really lucky) in a tournament game even when I find a piece of terrain big enough to hide it because any competent player has the tools to alpha strike it? And T8 looks the same to a Lascannon as T7 btw so that really only helps against Eldar Lances, and even then not by much.

I've taken Leman Russ Tank Commanders and Pask to two tournaments now. They don't work. It's 243/253 points (more with demo cannon or multi/plas sponsons) for something that gets crippled/killed before it can even bring it's guns to bear. Theres a reason none of the top AM lists are taking these 'beast HQ' tanks or any tanks for that matter.

Should have used battle cannon

Saving 18 points for a weaker gun doesnt solve the problem of the tank not living past turn 2. Why would I spend 12-15% of my points on a unit that MIGHT get to shoot twice?

The tank wont live past 2 turn if you expose it to enemy fire to get in range to fire demolisher cannon. Battle cannon has the range of the board and las cannon hull mount is more than adequate range to sit back and only tank dedicated anti tank fire. Just take heavy bolter sponsons and use them to cover your front line. Much cheaper and will probably live all game if you place it right. If I'm taking a demolisher cannon - I am taking it on a vindicator. Cheap - tough - and if they shoot at it great - it's the toughest thing in my army.

Honestly, I'd be willing to bet the elysians did more to carry the day than the conscripts did.

120 conscripts organized 4x30 is not all that much in the grand scheme of things. They'd slow things down a bit, but the real stars are the Elysians. Besides shaving 8 points off a scion plasma squad (for worse armor, but hey it's already a suicide unit) I was noticing a lot of full infantry squads with krak grenades as their only upgrade.

I'm betting they were exploiting the unique order that lets them turn their grenades into assault weapons. Of course the need to get within 6" limits it a bit, but once they do, I can see 19 lasgun shots, 10 frags, and 10 kraks (because removing the Grenade type removes the one-grenade rule) and maybe a charge to follow up doing quite a number on just about anything.

The conscripts were just a distraction.

 Gamgee wrote:
In that case we need to brainstorm how.

More stress needs to be put on codex. For example - If I take an ultra marines detachment - I shouldn't be allowed to fill out my elites with vindicate assassins and my fast attacks with scout sentinels. Ultra marines detachment - only ultra marines can be taken in it.

Want to include more than one codex? -1 to your roll to go first for each unique army type.

Want to include a lord of war? -1 to your roll to go first.

I like stuff like this to encourage people to take only 1 army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ross-128 wrote:
Honestly, I'd be willing to bet the elysians did more to carry the day than the conscripts did.

120 conscripts organized 4x30 is not all that much in the grand scheme of things. They'd slow things down a bit, but the real stars are the Elysians. Besides shaving 8 points off a scion plasma squad (for worse armor, but hey it's already a suicide unit) I was noticing a lot of full infantry squads with krak grenades as their only upgrade.

I'm betting they were exploiting the unique order that lets them turn their grenades into assault weapons. Of course the need to get within 6" limits it a bit, but once they do, I can see 19 lasgun shots, 10 frags, and 10 kraks (because removing the Grenade type removes the one-grenade rule) and maybe a charge to follow up doing quite a number on just about anything.

The conscripts were just a distraction.

Orders are just bonkers OP. I've never even heard of that order before.

 Gamgee wrote:
I know, but currently there are too many of them. You can take a vanguard detachment and get as much of that slot as you need for example.

There needs to be only a single detachment and an allied detachment again like in 7th and everyone and every race has to adhere to it for maximum balance.

That was a TOURNAMENT RULE.

You could field as many detachments as you had points for in 7th.

 Xenomancers wrote:

RogueApiary wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

RogueApiary wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

RogueApiary wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Upping points across the board for IG is an adequate solution, provided we see what Regiment rules they will get. But without Regiment rules, I don't think they're worth 5ppm.

Are you serious?

Name the guard infantry unit that isn't better than equivalently priced units in other armies. Legitimately curious. I've got ogryns... and that's really about it.

Name a Guard character unit that IS better than an equivalently priced unit in other armies. Guard have good, cheap infantry because we don't have access to gak like Magnus or the Yncarne. FFS, Marines have a better MAIN BATTLE TANK than we do.

Super-heavy tanks are your equivalent units. Speaking of beast HQ's...can't you take HQ tanks that bosts their BS and give orders and stuff whilst having better toughness and weapon selection than marine predators?

The super heavies are garbage compared to Magnus. You literally can't move them or you hit on 5's and the second the enemy does the equivalent of a Leman Russ' damage they can pretty much be ignored the rest of the game since then they hit on 5's standing still and 6's on the move.

Oh, you mean the HQ tank that never sees turn one (turn 2 if I'm really lucky) in a tournament game even when I find a piece of terrain big enough to hide it because any competent player has the tools to alpha strike it? And T8 looks the same to a Lascannon as T7 btw so that really only helps against Eldar Lances, and even then not by much.

I've taken Leman Russ Tank Commanders and Pask to two tournaments now. They don't work. It's 243/253 points (more with demo cannon or multi/plas sponsons) for something that gets crippled/killed before it can even bring it's guns to bear. Theres a reason none of the top AM lists are taking these 'beast HQ' tanks or any tanks for that matter.

Should have used battle cannon

Saving 18 points for a weaker gun doesnt solve the problem of the tank not living past turn 2. Why would I spend 12-15% of my points on a unit that MIGHT get to shoot twice?

The tank wont live past 2 turn if you expose it to enemy fire to get in range to fire demolisher cannon. Battle cannon has the range of the board and las cannon hull mount is more than adequate range to sit back and only tank dedicated anti tank fire. Just take heavy bolter sponsons and use them to cover your front line. Much cheaper and will probably live all game if you place it right.

*SIGH* I am well aware of the range limitations on a Demolisher cannon. But hey, here's a full list of my tournament games with Pask, you tell me if the Battlecannon would have made the difference (spoilers, it wouldn't)

Game vs Nids - Pask actually lived long enough to do something, killed the hell out of a Harpy, was putting in some good work on the Swarmlord before the game ended from time.

2x Storm Ravens fly over my lines to the back of the board and get vision on Pask who was fully hidden behind a building. Insta-gibbed before Turn 1 started.

3x Doom Scythes fly past my lines to get around the building to get vision on Pask who again, was fully hidden behind a building, Death Rays insta-gibbed him before turn 1 started.

Pask started in the back line on my far board edge, actually got two turns of shooting to engage the Ynnari stuff that hit my line, Dark Eldar Lances got him on turn 3.

This one is just straight bad luck, but the TO rolled a random Battle Zone and we got Night Fight for the entire round. Pask got his face punched in by a Knight that got to walk across the table pretty much undamaged. Pask was on my board edge.

Versus Thousand Sons, Magnus and Belakor flew over my conscript line and killed Pask and his Tank Commander buddy on turn 3. He had managed to kill some Scarab Occult Terminators before dying. Yay? Managed to actually win this one because the Scions killed enough of his rubrics camping the back objectives to give me the win.

Note that in none of these games did I advance Pask towards danger or even forward deploy him and didnt even need to move him into range in the games where he survived the alpha because there was stuff to kill within 24" already.

 Xenomancers wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ross-128 wrote:
Honestly, I'd be willing to bet the elysians did more to carry the day than the conscripts did.

120 conscripts organized 4x30 is not all that much in the grand scheme of things. They'd slow things down a bit, but the real stars are the Elysians. Besides shaving 8 points off a scion plasma squad (for worse armor, but hey it's already a suicide unit) I was noticing a lot of full infantry squads with krak grenades as their only upgrade.

I'm betting they were exploiting the unique order that lets them turn their grenades into assault weapons. Of course the need to get within 6" limits it a bit, but once they do, I can see 19 lasgun shots, 10 frags, and 10 kraks (because removing the Grenade type removes the one-grenade rule) and maybe a charge to follow up doing quite a number on just about anything.

The conscripts were just a distraction.

Orders are just bonkers OP. I've never even heard of that order before.

Woah there Angry Marine, before you go running off with your broad brush, that order is exclusive to Elysians. General Imperial Guard orders don't do anything that other factions can't do, and those other factions are generally getting always-on buff bubbles instead of mutually exclusive single-target buffs.

The vanilla orders are:

Aim!: Re-roll 1s to hit when shooting. (any Space Marine captain and a ton of similar characters can do the same thing as a bubble).

Bring it Down!: re-roll 1s to wound when shooting (Space Marine lieutenants can do the same thing as a bubble)

Forward for the Emperor!: The unit must immediately run (move d6") then shoot. Any assault weapon can do this passively, albeit at -1 to hit. Still, it's only going to get you something like 3" most of the time.

Move Move Move!: The unit gets an extra movement phase, in which it must run. Sisters can do the same thing with an Act of Faith, 'Nids get a better version that also lets them charge.

Fix Bayonets!: The unit gets an extra Fight phase. Sisters can do the same thing with an Act of Faith, Zerkers have it passively. It's a lot less impressive on a S3 A1 WS5+/4+ model.

First Rank Fire! Second Rank Fire!: The one everyone knows an loves, lasguns can shoot twice. Easily the strongest for units that can use it, kept in check by the fact that category consists of "lasguns".

The Elysians' special order (Move and Fire!) is a replacement for "Forward for the Emperor!", which basically does the same thing except M&F has a -1 penalty to hit. However, FW either didn't realize how strong it would be to include the grenades, or didn't want to exclude the grenades because without them it would be strictly worse than FftE in every way. (of course the simplest solution would have been to just keep FftE).

RogueApiary wrote:
Versus Thousand Sons, Magnus and Belakor flew over my conscript line and killed Pask and his Tank Commander buddy on turn 3. He had managed to kill some Scarab Occult Terminators before dying. Yay? Managed to actually win this one because the Scions killed enough of his rubrics camping the back objectives to give me the win.

Your fault for leaving him with plenty of room to drop a colossal figure next to him while still remaining 1" away. You can literally wrap the conscripts around him to serve as a defense shield made of your own men.

So what's wrong with my suggestion of commissioners granting ld 10 instead of instant pass for fixing the conscripts issue? Keep them the same otherwise. I mean I don't see the problem being with the conscripts as much as with the commissioner making them too "stead fast".

I would make a good bet that something is going to change in the codex release to make them more fair for all. The only question I see is it going to be with the commish or with the scripts...

Azuza001 wrote:
So what's wrong with my suggestion of commissioners granting ld 10 instead of instant pass for fixing the conscripts issue? Keep them the same otherwise. I mean I don't see the problem being with the conscripts as much as with the commissioner making them too "stead fast".

I would make a good bet that something is going to change in the codex release to make them more fair for all. The only question I see is it going to be with the commish or with the scripts...

Well its ether that or he kills of multiple people.

The problem with conscripts is that for the points they gain FAR more from orders and aura buffs than a bunch of 10 man or 5 man squads

so the options you have are lower the unit cap or restrict bonuses in some way.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
In that case we need to brainstorm how.

More stress needs to be put on codex. For example - If I take an ultra marines detachment - I shouldn't be allowed to fill out my elites with vindicate assassins and my fast attacks with scout sentinels. Ultra marines detachment - only ultra marines can be taken in it.

Want to include more than one codex? -1 to your roll to go first for each unique army type.

Want to include a lord of war? -1 to your roll to go first.

I like stuff like this to encourage people to take only 1 army.

But limiting people to one codex or LoW is a rather arbitrary throwback to perceived halcyon days. A lot of armies simply can't function without allies. Just look at Custodes, Sisters of Silence and Assassins literally can't be fielded without it and Inquisition can't be fielded effectively. Plus, there's a fair number of us who just like the concept.

Ships sailed on LoW. GW and players at large seem to love selling/using them from the amount seen. Plus Imperial Knights are a faction of nothing but and fairly popular.

 Arkaine wrote:

RogueApiary wrote:
Versus Thousand Sons, Magnus and Belakor flew over my conscript line and killed Pask and his Tank Commander buddy on turn 3. He had managed to kill some Scarab Occult Terminators before dying. Yay? Managed to actually win this one because the Scions killed enough of his rubrics camping the back objectives to give me the win.

Your fault for leaving him with plenty of room to drop a colossal figure next to him while still remaining 1" away. You can literally wrap the conscripts around him to serve as a defense shield made of your own men.

At which point I wouldn't have been able to move onto objectives. You're basically telling me to add more conscripts, because clearly 60 conscripts plus 40 infantry wasn't enough to do both.

Audustum wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
In that case we need to brainstorm how.

More stress needs to be put on codex. For example - If I take an ultra marines detachment - I shouldn't be allowed to fill out my elites with vindicate assassins and my fast attacks with scout sentinels. Ultra marines detachment - only ultra marines can be taken in it.

Want to include more than one codex? -1 to your roll to go first for each unique army type.

Want to include a lord of war? -1 to your roll to go first.

I like stuff like this to encourage people to take only 1 army.

But limiting people to one codex or LoW is a rather arbitrary throwback to perceived halcyon days. A lot of armies simply can't function without allies. Just look at Custodes, Sisters of Silence and Assassins literally can't be fielded without it and Inquisition can't be fielded effectively. Plus, there's a fair number of us who just like the concept.

Ships sailed on LoW. GW and players at large seem to love selling/using them from the amount seen. Plus Imperial Knights are a faction of nothing but and fairly popular.

Personally i dont think custods or sos or assassins or even inquisition is a real army. those are often flavor enhancers for fluff players. because why on earth is a custodes outside of terra. did they finally install a text to speech device on the emperor?

 Desubot wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
In that case we need to brainstorm how.

More stress needs to be put on codex. For example - If I take an ultra marines detachment - I shouldn't be allowed to fill out my elites with vindicate assassins and my fast attacks with scout sentinels. Ultra marines detachment - only ultra marines can be taken in it.

Want to include more than one codex? -1 to your roll to go first for each unique army type.

Want to include a lord of war? -1 to your roll to go first.

I like stuff like this to encourage people to take only 1 army.

But limiting people to one codex or LoW is a rather arbitrary throwback to perceived halcyon days. A lot of armies simply can't function without allies. Just look at Custodes, Sisters of Silence and Assassins literally can't be fielded without it and Inquisition can't be fielded effectively. Plus, there's a fair number of us who just like the concept.

Ships sailed on LoW. GW and players at large seem to love selling/using them from the amount seen. Plus Imperial Knights are a faction of nothing but and fairly popular.

Personally i dont think custods or sos or assassins or even inquisition is a real army. those are often flavor enhancers for fluff players. because why on earth is a custodes outside of terra. did they finally install a text to speech device on the emperor?

I could be wrong but I think Robot Gulliver ordered those golden boys to get off their asses and actually be useful.

 Vitali Advenil wrote:


I could be wrong but I think Robot Gulliver ordered those golden boys to get off their asses and actually be useful.

Did he? i have not been keeping up with girlyman as he does not interest me.

 Desubot wrote:

 Vitali Advenil wrote:


I could be wrong but I think Robot Gulliver ordered those golden boys to get off their asses and actually be useful.

Did he? i have not been keeping up with girlyman as he does not interest me.

I completely agree- Rowbooty Gilbert is probably the least interesting Primarch, but my 40k group talks a lot of lore so I hear things. Funnily enough, only one of us plays guard, and he's tank heavy, so this is the first I've seen of the conscript issue.

 Desubot wrote:

 Vitali Advenil wrote:


I could be wrong but I think Robot Gulliver ordered those golden boys to get off their asses and actually be useful.

Did he? i have not been keeping up with girlyman as he does not interest me.

That's my understanding too. He basically told them to stop sulking and get moving again.

RogueApiary wrote:

 Arkaine wrote:

RogueApiary wrote:
Versus Thousand Sons, Magnus and Belakor flew over my conscript line and killed Pask and his Tank Commander buddy on turn 3. He had managed to kill some Scarab Occult Terminators before dying. Yay? Managed to actually win this one because the Scions killed enough of his rubrics camping the back objectives to give me the win.

Your fault for leaving him with plenty of room to drop a colossal figure next to him while still remaining 1" away. You can literally wrap the conscripts around him to serve as a defense shield made of your own men.

At which point I wouldn't have been able to move onto objectives. You're basically telling me to add more conscripts, because clearly 60 conscripts plus 40 infantry wasn't enough to do both.

Sure you can. Bring Pask with you.

Just let Guard be low to mid tier, they wont complain about us then.

Audustum wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
In that case we need to brainstorm how.

More stress needs to be put on codex. For example - If I take an ultra marines detachment - I shouldn't be allowed to fill out my elites with vindicate assassins and my fast attacks with scout sentinels. Ultra marines detachment - only ultra marines can be taken in it.

Want to include more than one codex? -1 to your roll to go first for each unique army type.

Want to include a lord of war? -1 to your roll to go first.

I like stuff like this to encourage people to take only 1 army.

But limiting people to one codex or LoW is a rather arbitrary throwback to perceived halcyon days. A lot of armies simply can't function without allies. Just look at Custodes, Sisters of Silence and Assassins literally can't be fielded without it and Inquisition can't be fielded effectively. Plus, there's a fair number of us who just like the concept.

Ships sailed on LoW. GW and players at large seem to love selling/using them from the amount seen. Plus Imperial Knights are a faction of nothing but and fairly popular.

it's just a penalty...its not like you cant do it. You aren't palying custodies because you want to win tournys. Even if you were trying to win -1 to go first roll is hardly the end of the world.

Actually, some at at NOVA were. There were at least 3 there. They're a fantastic troop for an Imperial Soup.

Audustum wrote:
Actually, some of us at NOVA were. They're a fantastic troop for an Imperial Soup.

Custodes do amazing things.a bit pricy but more work than say melee terminators

and assasins are fricking annoying to no end.

that 4+ remove command points was the most aggravating thing i had to face.

Audustum wrote:
Actually, some at at NOVA were. There were at least 3 there. They're a fantastic troop for an Imperial Soup.

Not saying they are bad - they just don't deserve special consideration when it comes to allies.

Love the -1 per LoW idea. Getting tabled for 3 games in a weekend because I lost the first turn was so enjoyable I want to encourage it to happen more. That sweet sweet -3.

I dunno an assassin army was fun to play against. Totally a different type of play style you have to use. Super frickin close game.