Hey, ya got anymore of them Conscripts?

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**SilverAlien**

sossen wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
Also, inclusion in a winning list does not automatically make something OP. Still waaaay to early to be claiming any "proof". Like some others, I'm more suspicious of the Scions and Elysians here.

Conscripts appear just as consistently in top-placing lists as Elysians (top 2 at BAO had ~100 conscripts each, all three AM players in the top 5 at Nova Open had ~100 conscripts, a large percentage of high placing armies include conscripts). The logic behind their inclusion is sound, just listen to what the BAO winner had to say about their role in his army in the FLG post-event podcast. The mathhammer backs it up.

It is hardly coincidence that so many experienced tournament players have decided to include this many conscripts and that these lists are placing very well in GTs.

Conscripts have considerably higher cost-efficiency than the average unit in the same role across the different armies and the role that conscripts fill is important in competitive play. That is pretty much the definition of overpowered. To achieve balance the best unit should only have a minimal cost-efficiency advantage compared to other units.

Yeah it baffles me people are still fighting this. Screening is a really simple role that depends almost entirely on raw durability, which we can show conscripts have in excess of other similar units. It's not a particularly abstract role that's hard to quantify and it's common across virtually any half decent list in the game.

Conscripts are too durable for their price compared to almost every other equivalent unit in the game. I don't even know how anyone can begin to argue this point.

**valdier**

Taking away Summary Execution solves the conscript problem very nicely and cleanly, nothing else needed to fix them.

**Future War Cultist**

valdier wrote:
Taking away Summary Execution solves the conscript problem very nicely and cleanly, nothing else needed to fix them.

But that's a major part of the fluff regarding commissars. That would be like taking ATSKNF away from marines.

**Angra**

I'm not against nerfing conscripts a bit, but there is lot's other unit's that need's nerf too. Nerf Guilliman so only infanrty and cavalry are effected by his aura. Marine flyer's are underpriced for their firepower and survivability, limit Predators lascannons max 2.

Here couple prime examples, but sure there is more "overpowered" unit's.

**ross-128**

The main problem is most people are either vastly underestimating just how big the nerfs they are proposing are, or are more concerned with "I never want to see those things on my table again" than with balance.

For example, the frequent suggestion of removing the commissar entirely for them. Would that eliminate all complaints about conscripts? Technically yes, but only because you'd never see a single conscript ever again.

**Xenomancers**

Angra wrote:
I'm not against nerfing conscripts a bit, but there is lot's other unit's that need's nerf too. Nerf Guilliman so only infanrty and cavalry are effected by his aura. Marine flyer's are underpriced for their firepower and survivability, limit Predators lascannons max 2.

Here couple prime examples, but sure there is more "overpowered" unit's.

Bobby G is so overpowered that marines are crushing big events. Wait....they aren't. It might be the best marine build but it's not really competitive in the big scheme. As always with Warhammer - Survivability and suicide units are king. Gbobby G is more or less balanced by the fact Ultra marines chapter tactic is garbage and the fact other marine armies can practically duplicate his aura effects for less points. Complain about things that are actually demonstrably overpowered - by actually competitive analysis. Please.

**Desubot**

Angra wrote:
I'm not against nerfing conscripts a bit, but there is lot's other unit's that need's nerf too. Nerf Guilliman so only infanrty and cavalry are effected by his aura. Marine flyer's are underpriced for their firepower and survivability, limit Predators lascannons max 2.

Here couple prime examples, but sure there is more "overpowered" unit's.

Well Flyers did get a swift nerf since now they cant capture objectives which is nice.

and preds are already fairly points intensive. and not terribly hard to kill. (this one comes down to who gets first turn) if anything i feel like terrain needs to do more. it sucks being 50 or even 80% covered by a barricade but because its a barricade it does nothing for tanks.

or really odd interactions with tanks.

i think the rules for terrain are fine for infantry type models. it has issues for off things like beasts and swarms.

**Marmatag**

Desubot wrote:
Angra wrote:
I'm not against nerfing conscripts a bit, but there is lot's other unit's that need's nerf too. Nerf Guilliman so only infanrty and cavalry are effected by his aura. Marine flyer's are underpriced for their firepower and survivability, limit Predators lascannons max 2.

Here couple prime examples, but sure there is more "overpowered" unit's.

Well Flyers did get a swift nerf since now they cant capture objectives which is nice.

It's far more than that, though.

They no longer count as a unit on the table for the purposes of the 50% rule. Meaning, they eat into your ability to deep strike.

They no longer count as a unit on the table for any scoring purpose, and if you only have units with the "Fly" role in play, that's considered a major defeat. So if your opponent has a flyer heavy list, you just kill the non flyers and win.

Those two aspects are huge nerfs to flyers, and why ravenspam is dead completely. The objectives were never a big deal for flyers, since you'd be playing to blast your opponent off the table.

**Xenomancers**

ross-128 wrote:
The main problem is most people are either vastly underestimating just how big the nerfs they are proposing are, or are more concerned with "I never want to see those things on my table again" than with balance.

For example, the frequent suggestion of removing the commissar entirely for them. Would that eliminate all complaints about conscripts? Technically yes, but only because you'd never see a single conscript ever again.

First of all - It's not like Guard wouldn't still be the best army in the game without conscripts. Infantry are also undercosted and can be spammed for even cheaper detachments that actually provide firepower. Second - the proposed nerfs against conscripts are warranted - more than any other proposed nerf against a unit in this game. Do you really think conscripts wouldn't still be spammed if they were 4 points?

**Quickjager**

ross-128 wrote:
The main problem is most people are either vastly underestimating just how big the nerfs they are proposing are, or are more concerned with "I never want to see those things on my table again" than with balance.

For example, the frequent suggestion of removing the commissar entirely for them. Would that eliminate all complaints about conscripts? Technically yes, but only because you'd never see a single conscript ever again.

No, few people are. You're just a holdout for Conscripts are fine. I can go find your quotes from the "Are Conscripts Overpowered Now??? " Thread if you want me to, saying that they are fine. I would say you are one of the key defenders of them in such a way no one should take you seriously in your defense of them. Even my VERY fair nerf of simply moving the armor save of Conscripts from a 5+ to a 6+ and make it so they can't take certain orders like Get Back Into the Fight! was dismissed as unfluffy and therefore untenable.

**Insectum7**

Quickjager wrote:
ross-128 wrote:
The main problem is most people are either vastly underestimating just how big the nerfs they are proposing are, or are more concerned with "I never want to see those things on my table again" than with balance.

For example, the frequent suggestion of removing the commissar entirely for them. Would that eliminate all complaints about conscripts? Technically yes, but only because you'd never see a single conscript ever again.

No, few people are. You're just a holdout for Conscripts are fine. I can go find your quotes from the "Are Conscripts Overpowered Now??? " Thread if you want me to, saying that they are fine. I would say you are one of the key defenders of them in such a way no one should take you seriously in your defense of them. Even my VERY fair nerf of simply moving the armor save of Conscripts from a 5+ to a 6+ and make it so they can't take certain orders like Get Back Into the Fight! was dismissed as unfluffy and therefore untenable.

That seems like an overreaction. A: "Most proposed nerfs are too much." --- B: "No one should take you seriously." Nice.

I actually like the one requiring two normal Infantry squads for each Conscript squad.

**Angra**

Desubot wrote:
Angra wrote:
I'm not against nerfing conscripts a bit, but there is lot's other unit's that need's nerf too. Nerf Guilliman so only infanrty and cavalry are effected by his aura. Marine flyer's are underpriced for their firepower and survivability, limit Predators lascannons max 2.

Here couple prime examples, but sure there is more "overpowered" unit's.

Well Flyers did get a swift nerf since now they cant capture objectives which is nice.

and preds are already fairly points intensive. and not terribly hard to kill. (this one comes down to who gets first turn) if anything i feel like terrain needs to do more. it sucks being 50 or even 80% covered by a barricade but because its a barricade it does nothing for tanks.

or really odd interactions with tanks.

i think the rules for terrain are fine for infantry type models. it has issues for off things like beasts and swarms.

Objective capture is pointless if you play kill point's and even if you don't, flyer's have way too much firepower in very mobile and durable (-1 to hit, can be assaulted only other flyer's). platform. Shooting them down isn't easy with AM, orc's and other faction's that have 4+ / 5+ weapon skill unless you target them with all heavy hitters or be lucky.
Predators can hide behind cover, out of line of sight if you cant finish your deployment first and get most likely first turn. Spamming lascannons/meltas/heavy cannons etc. with reroll auras needs to nerfed.

In one case we have same opinion, terrain rules needs some fixing.

**Desubot**

Angra wrote:
Desubot wrote:
Angra wrote:
I'm not against nerfing conscripts a bit, but there is lot's other unit's that need's nerf too. Nerf Guilliman so only infanrty and cavalry are effected by his aura. Marine flyer's are underpriced for their firepower and survivability, limit Predators lascannons max 2.

Here couple prime examples, but sure there is more "overpowered" unit's.

Well Flyers did get a swift nerf since now they cant capture objectives which is nice.

and preds are already fairly points intensive. and not terribly hard to kill. (this one comes down to who gets first turn) if anything i feel like terrain needs to do more. it sucks being 50 or even 80% covered by a barricade but because its a barricade it does nothing for tanks.

or really odd interactions with tanks.

i think the rules for terrain are fine for infantry type models. it has issues for off things like beasts and swarms.

Objective capture is pointless if you play kill point's and even if you don't, flyer's have way too much firepower in very mobile and durable (-1 to hit, can be assaulted only other flyer's). platform. Shooting them down isn't easy with AM, orc's and other faction's that have 4+ / 5+ weapon skill unless you target them with all heavy hitters or be lucky.
Predators can hide behind cover, out of line of sight if you cant finish your deployment first and get most likely first turn. Spamming lascannons/meltas/heavy cannons etc. with reroll auras needs to nerfed.

In one case we have same opinion, terrain rules needs some fixing.

1 in 12 game modes... eh.

**Quickjager**

Insectum7 wrote:
Quickjager wrote:
ross-128 wrote:
The main problem is most people are either vastly underestimating just how big the nerfs they are proposing are, or are more concerned with "I never want to see those things on my table again" than with balance.

For example, the frequent suggestion of removing the commissar entirely for them. Would that eliminate all complaints about conscripts? Technically yes, but only because you'd never see a single conscript ever again.

No, few people are. You're just a holdout for Conscripts are fine. I can go find your quotes from the "Are Conscripts Overpowered Now??? " Thread if you want me to, saying that they are fine. I would say you are one of the key defenders of them in such a way no one should take you seriously in your defense of them. Even my VERY fair nerf of simply moving the armor save of Conscripts from a 5+ to a 6+ and make it so they can't take certain orders like Get Back Into the Fight! was dismissed as unfluffy and therefore untenable.

That seems like an overreaction. A: "Most proposed nerfs are too much." --- B: "No one should take you seriously." Nice.

I actually like the one requiring two normal Infantry squads for each Conscript squad.

I can go quote you too Insectum. Putting your heads in the ground about a broken unit is shortsighted. Which is why I always acknowledged the DK in 7th was a powerful unit by any codex standard.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Quickjager wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
Quickjager wrote:
ross-128 wrote:
The main problem is most people are either vastly underestimating just how big the nerfs they are proposing are, or are more concerned with "I never want to see those things on my table again" than with balance.

For example, the frequent suggestion of removing the commissar entirely for them. Would that eliminate all complaints about conscripts? Technically yes, but only because you'd never see a single conscript ever again.

No, few people are. You're just a holdout for Conscripts are fine. I can go find your quotes from the "Are Conscripts Overpowered Now??? " Thread if you want me to, saying that they are fine. I would say you are one of the key defenders of them in such a way no one should take you seriously in your defense of them. Even my VERY fair nerf of simply moving the armor save of Conscripts from a 5+ to a 6+ and make it so they can't take certain orders like Get Back Into the Fight! was dismissed as unfluffy and therefore untenable.

That seems like an overreaction. A: "Most proposed nerfs are too much." --- B: "No one should take you seriously." Nice.

I actually like the one requiring two normal Infantry squads for each Conscript squad.

I can go quote you too Insectum. Putting your heads in the ground about a broken unit is shortsighted. Which is why I always acknowledged the DK in 7th was a powerful unit by any codex standard.

You realize Insectum thinks Tactical Marines are good. You really take him seriously at this point?

**blaktoof**

Conscripts shouldn't cost less than gretchin.

3ppm, cannot receive orders.

**Wakshaani**

Just change the unit size from 20-50 to a flat 20.

It mitigates the problem without complicating things, yet still leaves them usable.

The Wakshaani Compromise.

**Arkaine**

Wakshaani wrote:
Just change the unit size from 20-50 to a flat 20.

It mitigates the problem without complicating things, yet still leaves them usable.

The Wakshaani Compromise.

Make them suck as much as Cultists.

It solve the problem without complicating things, yet still leaves them usable.

The Three-Sixths Compromise.

**BlaxicanX**

Future War Cultist wrote:
valdier wrote:
Taking away Summary Execution solves the conscript problem very nicely and cleanly, nothing else needed to fix them.

But that's a major part of the fluff regarding commissars. That would be like taking ATSKNF away from marines.

They did take ATSKNF from Marines, the current incarnation is a shell of it's former self.

Summary Exexution needs to be changed so that instead of institution a set amount of models that can be lost to battle shock (one), it simple lowers the amount of models lost by d6, to minimum of 1. So you're going to always lose at least 1 model, but you can reduce the losses by up to 6.

Which is entirely reasonable for much commissars cost and how durable the character rule makes them.

**Arkaine**

BlaxicanX wrote:
They did take ATSKNF from Marines, the current incarnation is a shell of it's former self.

And now Conscripts have it. Commissar shoots one of them dead and the rest Know No Fear! ... of the enemy at least.

**Scott-S6**

Everyone is saying that an increase in cost for conscripts means other guard infantry has to go up - I don't agree.

The ability to take large squads (which infantry squads no longer have) is really valuable. I don't see a problem with conscripts costing the same as infantry squads.

**Future War Cultist**

Scott-S6 wrote:
Everyone is saying that an increase in cost for conscripts means other guard infantry has to go up - I don't agree.

The ability to take large squads (which infantry squads no longer have) is really valuable. I don't see a problem with conscripts costing the same as infantry squads.

You have a point there. You'd be paying a small premium for their extra durability.

**Blackie**

Conscripts are very solid at the moment, IMHO they're not overpowered and don't need huge nerfs. What really needs to change is the possibility of bringing imperium soups.

Ban the possibility of mixing imperium stuff, just allow AM + tempestus, and SoB + Inquisition + Grey knights.

I can't see celestine with AM armies. And also the living saint is not overpowered, the combination of her and the most solid imperium units is overpowered.

**Bobthehero**

Living Saints leading crusades of Guardsmen is fluffy as hell. Or converted Guardsmen to be Fraternis Militia and what not.

**Blackie**

Bobthehero wrote:
Living Saints leading crusades of Guardsmen is fluffy as hell. Or converted Guardsmen to be Fraternis Militia and what not.

They're not blobs of conscripts though. Or elysians or primaris psykers. None of this stuff is fluffy if joined by celestine.

**Bobthehero**

Yeah, I am sure Celestine never fought with Elysians, ever, ever, ever. Nor did she ever fought near Primaris Psykers.

**Audustum**

Plus with the Indomitus Crusade or whatever Guilliman is calling it, isn't it basically any Imperium faction to be fighting alongside another? RG had GK with him for crying out load and Celestine was leading a (at least partially) AdMech horde for much of Gathering Storm.

**Mr Morden**

Audustum wrote:
Plus with the Indomitus Crusade or whatever Guilliman is calling it, isn't it basically any Imperium faction to be fighting alongside another? RG had GK with him for crying out load and Celestine was leading a (at least partially) AdMech horde for much of Gathering Storm.

St Celestine has fought alongside a huge variety of Imperial forces before and after the Fall of Cadia.

**Breng77**

Scott-S6 wrote:
Everyone is saying that an increase in cost for conscripts means other guard infantry has to go up - I don't agree.

The ability to take large squads (which infantry squads no longer have) is really valuable. I don't see a problem with conscripts costing the same as infantry squads.

Not much of one though, as if they are equal points compared to infantry squads, the only downside to taking infantry squads is that they give up more KP.

**SilverAlien**

Breng77 wrote:
Scott-S6 wrote:
Everyone is saying that an increase in cost for conscripts means other guard infantry has to go up - I don't agree.

The ability to take large squads (which infantry squads no longer have) is really valuable. I don't see a problem with conscripts costing the same as infantry squads.

Not much of one though, as if they are equal points compared to infantry squads, the only downside to taking infantry squads is that they give up more KP.

Also aren't as efficient when it comes to buffing them with a commissar or any other radial buff, nor do they gain as much benefit from orders seeing as an order would effect 40 models vs 10.

They'd never be as good as normal guard on their own but would be as good or better properly supported. Which would be perfectly fine.