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Thanks Quickjager, and thats why I'll leave this thread once has been intoxicated by the negationists. Eldar, Tau, Imperial Guard, Space Marines, they are all the same kind of people

To everyone saying point efficient weapons haven't been used against Conscripts. That is because there is literally no weapon that is point efficient. If there ever WAS a weapon that was point efficient it would OP because it would kill everything else even FASTER because of how the wound chart works now. So no let us not introduce such a weapon and instead nerf the stats on Conscripts.

Theoretically, a Rubric Marine with a warpflamer should be the most efficient method of clearing conscripts; d6 auto-hits at S4 AP-2 is basically perfect stats for clearing them out.

4 hits, 3 wounds, no save so 3 killed conscripts. That's 9 points worth of stuff killed by my 33 point model. Remember that this is the perfect weapon for killing conscripts. Doing the math for an entire squad is going to look even worse because of the aspiring sorcerer tax.

Exactly now let us put it up against a more expensive model like say a Tactical Marine.

4 hits, 2 wounds, 5+ save, 1 marine effectively dead. That is 13 points.

Anything that kills Conscripts perfectly, kills ANYTHING (Except maybe Celestine) else even more effectively. Because conscripts are too durable for their points. Their armor save needs to reduced.

 Quickjager wrote:
Oh look it is MoO, lets get some quotes on his previous opinions.

 master of ordinance wrote:
In all honesty I just want to fell like the glory factions did over the past few years.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lets get with Melissa as well.

 Melissia wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Lol that is a horrible argument; that is like the dumb GK players from last ed. saying "Dreadknights are fine! It doesn't matter they're overperforming because they're all we got!"

Maybe you feel that way, but you know what? Don't care. We've played the same army lists since 3rd edition and basically the same since 2nd. No army is in even remotely a similar situation than us, even Grey Knights.

We finally move from being a bottom tier, forgettable list to one that can actually contend competitively. It's fething nice to see. If only GW actually gave us new units, I might give a damn about you feeling like this is a horrible argument. But they don't. So I don't.

They're as bad as whatshisname defending Scatterbikes. Was it Bharring? Can't remember. He might have been the "Dire Avengers are worse than Chaos Marines" guy instead that purposely created an illegal loadout for the Marines...

Meanwhile, that rubric gets to enjoy a 2+ save against the return fire.

33 for 9 isn't too far off the roughly 1/3 ratio GW seems to have picked as average for a one-turn kill. 27 for 9 would be perfectly average, but then a tarpit that only takes average effort to kill wouldn't be much of a tarpit would it?

Now admittedly something doesn't have to be too far off the curve to tilt a game, but that also means if it's not that far off to begin with, you should exercise care when adjusting it: it doesn't have to be too far below the curve to fall from grace either.

It takes 81 points of conscripts to kill an 18 point rubric marine with a bolter, so they're not doing any better on return fire if some bolter bros are present to catch some wounds. An officer improves their efficiency more than he adds to their cost, so he's a net positive there, but then that is kind of his job.

This ratio or something close to it definitely crops up a lot on other units. A 62 point Rhino with its 10 T7/3+ wounds takes about 240 points of lascannon HWTs to kill, well on the high side being closer to 1/4 than 1/3. A 91 point Chimera with 11 T7/3+ takes closer to 264, slightly below 1/3, and is widely considered bad. And this is when you're practically just paying for the gun and nothing else, both the rhino and chimera are far more proportionally durable against anything that has a bit of armor of its own. (granted they're both also nearly unarmed, one because it literally only has a storm bolter, the other because it'll usually be hitting on 5+).

 Quickjager wrote:
Exactly now let us put it up against a more expensive model like say a Tactical Marine.

4 hits, 2 wounds, 5+ save, 1 marine effectively dead. That is 13 points.

Anything that kills Conscripts perfectly, kills ANYTHING (Except maybe Celestine) else even more effectively. Because conscripts are too durable for their points. Their armor save needs to reduced.

Take a look at Tarantula Turrets. 27 points is a BS4+ 6 shot Heavy Bolter.

 ross-128 wrote:
Meanwhile, that rubric gets to enjoy a 2+ save against the return fire.

33 for 9 isn't too far off the roughly 1/3 ratio GW seems to have picked as average for a one-turn kill. 27 for 9 would be perfectly average, but then a tarpit that only takes average effort to kill wouldn't be much of a tarpit would it?

Now admittedly something doesn't have to be too far off the curve to tilt a game, but that also means if it's not that far off to begin with, you should exercise care when adjusting it: it doesn't have to be too far below the curve to fall from grace either.

It takes 81 points of conscripts to kill an 18 point rubric marine with a bolter, so they're not doing any better on return fire if some bolter bros are present to catch some wounds. An officer improves their efficiency more than he adds to their cost, so he's a net positive there, but then that is kind of his job.

This ratio or something close to it definitely crops up a lot on other units. A 62 point Rhino with its 10 T7/3+ wounds takes about 240 points of lascannon HWTs to kill, well on the high side being closer to 1/4 than 1/3. A 91 point Chimera with 11 T7/3+ takes closer to 264, slightly below 1/3, and is widely considered bad. And this is when you're practically just paying for the gun and nothing else, both the rhino and chimera are far more proportionally durable against anything that has a bit of armor of its own. (granted they're both also nearly unarmed, one because it literally only has a storm bolter, the other because it'll usually be hitting on 5+).

Small arms with low/no AP is basically what All Is Dust is designed to protect against, if conscripts were efficient at killing rubrics that would be the most severe indication of conscripts being overpowered yet. The fact that the absolute ideal model for killing conscripts only meets the average mark kinda proves my point.

Do tarantulas being strong make conscripts not broken?

Hormagaunts are a pretty good unit to look at since they kill a lot of conscripts and are easily killed by them in return.

A hormagaunt is 5 pts per model, hits, on a 4+ and wounds on a 4+ with 2 attacks and no AP. They are only immune to morale if there is a Synapse creature near them, which costs more than a commissar and can be targeted unless it's a brood lord.

Now, a unit of genestealers that is large enough will slaughter the conscripts, but that's a hefty price for doing so at 10pts per model with no upgrades.4 attacks at 3+ to hit and reroll ones will likely mean 3 hits and 2-ish wounds per Genestealer, so a unit of 20 at 200 pts should roughly kill around 40 conscripts, or 120 points worth.
The problem then becomes a smart guard player will fall back and shoot the piss out of my assaulting units, making it less than a good trade. Also, while I'm wasting time on those conscripts, the artillery is killing everything I can use to kill the bigger stuff and hold objectives with.

It really makes for a game that I don't want play. it isn't fun for either person honestly. I quite literally have to throw my army at the guard screen to have any chance at all of winning and if the screen goes down, I win. If not, they win. There are no tactics there. Just praying to the dice gods.

So, we're well-aware of the overpowered Guard units right now, but, flipside... what are the weak ones?

Because if you nerf one part, you need to buff another. The goal is to get a faction as balanced as possible, where everything appeals to players, but some can use X instead of Y, not because it's Just Better, but because it fits the playstyle better.

I'm willing to take a crack at things until the Codex arrives in order to hammer some stuff out. The goal, of course, is to 8th it up, so units don't get a bajillion special rules, but we want everything looking like it could fit into someone's force,

So... what's the stuff that needs a boost?

Most people agree Leman Russes are underpowered. I'm not familiar enough with the army to state what else may need tuning up.

 ross-128 wrote:
Meanwhile, that rubric gets to enjoy a 2+ save against the return fire.

33 for 9 isn't too far off the roughly 1/3 ratio GW seems to have picked as average for a one-turn kill. 27 for 9 would be perfectly average, but then a tarpit that only takes average effort to kill wouldn't be much of a tarpit would it?

Now admittedly something doesn't have to be too far off the curve to tilt a game, but that also means if it's not that far off to begin with, you should exercise care when adjusting it: it doesn't have to be too far below the curve to fall from grace either.

It takes 81 points of conscripts to kill an 18 point rubric marine with a bolter, so they're not doing any better on return fire if some bolter bros are present to catch some wounds. An officer improves their efficiency more than he adds to their cost, so he's a net positive there, but then that is kind of his job.

This ratio or something close to it definitely crops up a lot on other units. A 62 point Rhino with its 10 T7/3+ wounds takes about 240 points of lascannon HWTs to kill, well on the high side being closer to 1/4 than 1/3. A 91 point Chimera with 11 T7/3+ takes closer to 264, slightly below 1/3, and is widely considered bad. And this is when you're practically just paying for the gun and nothing else, both the rhino and chimera are far more proportionally durable against anything that has a bit of armor of its own. (granted they're both also nearly unarmed, one because it literally only has a storm bolter, the other because it'll usually be hitting on 5+).

I never talked about their offensive power. Why are you deflecting?

We are literally talking about just their sheer defensive mass.

Wakshaani wrote:
So... what's the stuff that needs a boost?

Leman Russ. Chimera. Sentinel. Deathstrike. Veterans. Nork. Kell. Vox networks. Multilasers .... vendettas?

 Quickjager wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
Meanwhile, that rubric gets to enjoy a 2+ save against the return fire.

33 for 9 isn't too far off the roughly 1/3 ratio GW seems to have picked as average for a one-turn kill. 27 for 9 would be perfectly average, but then a tarpit that only takes average effort to kill wouldn't be much of a tarpit would it?

Now admittedly something doesn't have to be too far off the curve to tilt a game, but that also means if it's not that far off to begin with, you should exercise care when adjusting it: it doesn't have to be too far below the curve to fall from grace either.

It takes 81 points of conscripts to kill an 18 point rubric marine with a bolter, so they're not doing any better on return fire if some bolter bros are present to catch some wounds. An officer improves their efficiency more than he adds to their cost, so he's a net positive there, but then that is kind of his job.

This ratio or something close to it definitely crops up a lot on other units. A 62 point Rhino with its 10 T7/3+ wounds takes about 240 points of lascannon HWTs to kill, well on the high side being closer to 1/4 than 1/3. A 91 point Chimera with 11 T7/3+ takes closer to 264, slightly below 1/3, and is widely considered bad. And this is when you're practically just paying for the gun and nothing else, both the rhino and chimera are far more proportionally durable against anything that has a bit of armor of its own. (granted they're both also nearly unarmed, one because it literally only has a storm bolter, the other because it'll usually be hitting on 5+).

I never talked about their offensive power. Why are you deflecting?

We are literally talking about just their sheer defensive mass.

>3 paragraphs comparing durability curve of wound-soaking units vs things designed to kill them.
>1 sentence about how the rubrics fare under the return fire.

"Why are you deflecting?!?!11"

 ross-128 wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
Meanwhile, that rubric gets to enjoy a 2+ save against the return fire.

33 for 9 isn't too far off the roughly 1/3 ratio GW seems to have picked as average for a one-turn kill. 27 for 9 would be perfectly average, but then a tarpit that only takes average effort to kill wouldn't be much of a tarpit would it?

Now admittedly something doesn't have to be too far off the curve to tilt a game, but that also means if it's not that far off to begin with, you should exercise care when adjusting it: it doesn't have to be too far below the curve to fall from grace either.

It takes 81 points of conscripts to kill an 18 point rubric marine with a bolter, so they're not doing any better on return fire if some bolter bros are present to catch some wounds. An officer improves their efficiency more than he adds to their cost, so he's a net positive there, but then that is kind of his job.

This ratio or something close to it definitely crops up a lot on other units. A 62 point Rhino with its 10 T7/3+ wounds takes about 240 points of lascannon HWTs to kill, well on the high side being closer to 1/4 than 1/3. A 91 point Chimera with 11 T7/3+ takes closer to 264, slightly below 1/3, and is widely considered bad. And this is when you're practically just paying for the gun and nothing else, both the rhino and chimera are far more proportionally durable against anything that has a bit of armor of its own. (granted they're both also nearly unarmed, one because it literally only has a storm bolter, the other because it'll usually be hitting on 5+).

I never talked about their offensive power. Why are you deflecting?

We are literally talking about just their sheer defensive mass.

>3 paragraphs comparing durability curve of wound-soaking units vs things designed to kill them.
>1 sentence about how the rubrics fare under the return fire.

"Why are you deflecting?!?!11"

I don't think you know what a paragraph is, although you do have ONE in there. Anyway, offensive power talk highlighted in red.

Arachnofiend wrote:
Most people agree Leman Russes are underpowered. I'm not familiar enough with the army to state what else may need tuning up.

It's a little underwhelming - much like the entire marine codex outside of Storm-ravens and guilliman. I think the best way to buff the LR is to give it a 2+ save. It's firepower is actually pretty good. Maybe some of the variants need a better main gun. It's pretty hard to find an "underpowered" compared to the rest of the units in the game unit in the gard index.

 Quickjager wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
Meanwhile, that rubric gets to enjoy a 2+ save against the return fire.

33 for 9 isn't too far off the roughly 1/3 ratio GW seems to have picked as average for a one-turn kill. 27 for 9 would be perfectly average, but then a tarpit that only takes average effort to kill wouldn't be much of a tarpit would it?

Now admittedly something doesn't have to be too far off the curve to tilt a game, but that also means if it's not that far off to begin with, you should exercise care when adjusting it: it doesn't have to be too far below the curve to fall from grace either.

It takes 81 points of conscripts to kill an 18 point rubric marine with a bolter, so they're not doing any better on return fire if some bolter bros are present to catch some wounds. An officer improves their efficiency more than he adds to their cost, so he's a net positive there, but then that is kind of his job.

This ratio or something close to it definitely crops up a lot on other units. A 62 point Rhino with its 10 T7/3+ wounds takes about 240 points of lascannon HWTs to kill, well on the high side being closer to 1/4 than 1/3. A 91 point Chimera with 11 T7/3+ takes closer to 264, slightly below 1/3, and is widely considered bad. And this is when you're practically just paying for the gun and nothing else, both the rhino and chimera are far more proportionally durable against anything that has a bit of armor of its own. (granted they're both also nearly unarmed, one because it literally only has a storm bolter, the other because it'll usually be hitting on 5+).

I never talked about their offensive power. Why are you deflecting?

We are literally talking about just their sheer defensive mass.

>3 paragraphs comparing durability curve of wound-soaking units vs things designed to kill them.
>1 sentence about how the rubrics fare under the return fire.

"Why are you deflecting?!?!11"

I don't think you know what a paragraph is, although you do have ONE in there. Anyway, offensive power talk highlighted in red.

1: The Rubric's save is an indication of the Rubric's durability, not the conscript's firepower.

2: You're still basically whining about one tangentially-related sentence. Is that really all you've got?

If winning tournament lists from now til 2018 contain conscripts would that not suggest a problem?

Chimeras suck because their one role of being transports or moveable bunkers was removed with fire points. Furthermore the units that would normally go in them were moved to Elites for some reason and Scions made them obsolete by being troops and being able to deepstrike with the same 3+ BS, while having just as many special weapons. What role can Chimera possibly fulfill now? What reason do IG need transports for now? They can shoot across the board or deepstrike up close. The only answer is Ogryns and those units themselves are overshadowed by Rough Riders who do not need transports. Seeing how most IG armies now run Celestine as an HQ, they already have a capable melee threat.

Chimeras such because they have no reason to be used. Even the variants suck because they used flamer-template weapons, with most flamers being horrible now. They're all overshadowed by the WONDERFUL Taurox Prime, which isn't even used for its transport capacity but rather the weapons mounted on it (22 Str 4 shots, then the autocannon or hellguns on the side).

What has happened to the Chimera isn't unique, but what is unique is that the IG have no good units to put inside to transport. This continues as a theme to an extent with the rest of the armies, the only units you would want to put in transports either have native deepstrike or have a stratagem to get them up the board. Chaos has the one unit in the game that is used almost solely for its transport capability The Kharbydis Assault Claw. The rest of the Index or Codices measure their transports by the firepower they can bring simply because there isn't much that is good that NEEDS a transport anymore.

How could you change the Chimera for the better? How can you make a transport in an army that doesn't need transports for their transport capacity good? I dunno, maybe in smaller games, but you would just take the Taurox. So perhaps the answer is to have the lasgun arrays scale up properly with the # of models inside? Make it so that you need to invest in bodies to make it good?\

Either way this isn't the thread for it. You act like we don't know the underperforming units of the Index, but we do. Perhaps you should make a thread addressing that?

EDIT: What I got Ross is you, Master of Ordinance, Melissa, and to a lesser extent Kanluwen going into every conscript thread defending a mathematically broken unit.

It is nice being the op army these days but that position has to be untenable.

I'm going to make these suggestions, and please feel free to rip me a new one if you don't like them:

1. Scrap conscripts. Ditch them from the list altogether. They're just too much trouble from a game play, army list and fluff perspective.

2. Make infantry squads into infantry platoons of a sort by allowing them to be up to 30 men.

3. Scrap command squads. They're only abused as special weapon squads. Move medics and platoon standards to the regular squads whilst making regimental standards an upgrade for junior officers.

4. Make conmissars harder to field. Make them HQ choices.

At the end of the day, the biggest problem with how the guard codex is currently designed is that fundamentally, as soon as/if conscripts get nerfed down to the point where they CAN'T effectively defend a gunline, the codex will completely disappear from competitive play. All other shooting focused codexes feature models that can withdraw from combat and still shoot OR have viable melee options they can use to protect against cc rush.

Every game I've had in 8th against guard sans conscripts with my melee armies, I've been able to come to grips with them, lock down a huge percentage of their gunline, and kill them in the fall back - charge - overwatch loop where they really can't do anything anymore.

That doesn't happen when facing eldar gunlines, or tau gunlines for the most part, because they have good access to units with Fly that they can use as a frontline. Guard are currently overpowered, but they're a brittle overpowered fueled by a couple of out of whack units, one of which (conscripts) is making a bunch of other units perform much better than they should (artillery and HWTs and Commanders etc)

I would love to see Chimera's useful again but that would require their firing points returning and veterans being worth taking as was stated above.

Scions could likely use a small point bump and then move Veterans back to Troop choices. If the Chimeras had their firing points back and were a bit cheaper I think you would see Veterans tooling around in them again.

I think putting in a kind of platoon requirement for Conscripts would also help a lot. Require two normal infantry squads per conscript squad and limit the size of conscript squads to 20 or 30. I think that would fix the problem without having to increase the point cost of conscripts, limiting commissar effectiveness, or any of the other more drastic fixes that would have a much wider effect than just fixing conscripts.

I think Russes would be worth taking again if you just tossed on a bunch more wounds. Their firepower is a bit meh but I think you would see people taking them again if they had the staying power to hang most of a game. Plus Vendetta's and Valks being tougher to kill than a Russ just feels extremely wrong.

For the most part I think you can balance the IG out by just moving around some units and making a few small changes.

the_scotsman wrote:
At the end of the day, the biggest problem with how the guard codex is currently designed is that fundamentally, as soon as/if conscripts get nerfed down to the point where they CAN'T effectively defend a gunline, the codex will completely disappear from competitive play. All other shooting focused codexes feature models that can withdraw from combat and still shoot OR have viable melee options they can use to protect against cc rush.

Every game I've had in 8th against guard sans conscripts with my melee armies, I've been able to come to grips with them, lock down a huge percentage of their gunline, and kill them in the fall back - charge - overwatch loop where they really can't do anything anymore.

That doesn't happen when facing eldar gunlines, or tau gunlines for the most part, because they have good access to units with Fly that they can use as a frontline. Guard are currently overpowered, but they're a brittle overpowered fueled by a couple of out of whack units, one of which (conscripts) is making a bunch of other units perform much better than they should (artillery and HWTs and Commanders etc)

Conscripts are the best OP option for troop choice - there are other OP options at troops for IG. They will still be the best army even if conscripts are removed from the game entirely (which they won't be)

 vonjankmon wrote:
I would love to see Chimera's useful again but that would require their firing points returning and veterans being worth taking as was stated above.

Scions could likely use a small point bump and then move Veterans back to Troop choices. If the Chimeras had their firing points back and were a bit cheaper I think you would see Veterans tooling around in them again.

I think putting in a kind of platoon requirement for Conscripts would also help a lot. Require two normal infantry squads per conscript squad and limit the size of conscript squads to 20 or 30. I think that would fix the problem without having to increase the point cost of conscripts, limiting commissar effectiveness, or any of the other more drastic fixes that would have a much wider effect than just fixing conscripts.

I think Russes would be worth taking again if you just tossed on a bunch more wounds. Their firepower is a bit meh but I think you would see people taking them again if they had the staying power to hang most of a game. Plus Vendetta's and Valks being tougher to kill than a Russ just feels extremely wrong.

For the most part I think you can balance the IG out by just moving around some units and making a few small changes.

Conscripts could be toned down slightly and still function (reduce their save to 6+ or 7+), alternatively guard could lose access to giant alph/beta strike components. Right now in the game Guard have
1.) The best(tied at worst) screen in the game
2.) The most access to good shooting that doesn't need LOS - this is an issue with the screen because the answer to their damage behind the screen could be shooting, but you cannot shoot what you cannot see, especially with the range it has.
3.) The best suicide deepstrike in the game, expendable plasma squads make a super alpha beta strike against many armies.
4.) Access to a ton of cheap anti-infantry fire, way cheaper than other books.

If you made conscripts have say a 6+ save, made units take a -1 to hit penalty for being out of LOS (and potentially reduced some range, but that isn't as needed in the case of a to hit penalty), recost plasma guns to 10-12 points for scions (maybe have millitarum tempestus have their own points table), raise cost on Mortars and Taurox.

Then buff their lesser units and I think they would be fine. They still have a cheap screen for their units, that will last a while but they will need to expose units if they want good shooting, and will have a bit less shooting overall.

Honestly, I think the LoS issue fixes them handily. The drop plasma hurts but it's SUPPOSED to. The Marine Codex has a Stratagem that gives a unit Intercept and I feel introducing more options like that raises tactical depth and solves plasma issues.

Anything that doesn't need LoS should just be capped at 24" or so. Let it shoot farther if it can draw line of sight, but cap it if it can't.

ThePorcupine wrote:
Deathstrike.

Always the deathstrike

such a silly one shot weapon.

Audustum wrote:
Honestly, I think the LoS issue fixes them handily. The drop plasma hurts but it's SUPPOSED to. The Marine Codex has a Stratagem that gives a unit Intercept and I feel introducing more options like that raises tactical depth and solves plasma issues.

Anything that doesn't need LoS should just be capped at 24" or so. Let it shoot farther if it can draw line of sight, but cap it if it can't.

A single unit with 12 inch range requirement can shoot at -1 to hit for 2 command points? This fixes drop scions IYO?

 Xenomancers wrote:

Audustum wrote:
Honestly, I think the LoS issue fixes them handily. The drop plasma hurts but it's SUPPOSED to. The Marine Codex has a Stratagem that gives a unit Intercept and I feel introducing more options like that raises tactical depth and solves plasma issues.

Anything that doesn't need LoS should just be capped at 24" or so. Let it shoot farther if it can draw line of sight, but cap it if it can't.

A single unit with 12 inch range requirement can shoot at -1 to hit for 2 command points? This fixes drop scions IYO?

I said more things like it. Yeah. I'd rather add counterplay then just straight up nerf the unit.

Breng77 wrote:

 vonjankmon wrote:
I would love to see Chimera's useful again but that would require their firing points returning and veterans being worth taking as was stated above.

Scions could likely use a small point bump and then move Veterans back to Troop choices. If the Chimeras had their firing points back and were a bit cheaper I think you would see Veterans tooling around in them again.

I think putting in a kind of platoon requirement for Conscripts would also help a lot. Require two normal infantry squads per conscript squad and limit the size of conscript squads to 20 or 30. I think that would fix the problem without having to increase the point cost of conscripts, limiting commissar effectiveness, or any of the other more drastic fixes that would have a much wider effect than just fixing conscripts.

I think Russes would be worth taking again if you just tossed on a bunch more wounds. Their firepower is a bit meh but I think you would see people taking them again if they had the staying power to hang most of a game. Plus Vendetta's and Valks being tougher to kill than a Russ just feels extremely wrong.

For the most part I think you can balance the IG out by just moving around some units and making a few small changes.

Conscripts could be toned down slightly and still function (reduce their save to 6+ or 7+), alternatively guard could lose access to giant alph/beta strike components. Right now in the game Guard have
1.) The best(tied at worst) screen in the game
2.) The most access to good shooting that doesn't need LOS - this is an issue with the screen because the answer to their damage behind the screen could be shooting, but you cannot shoot what you cannot see, especially with the range it has.
3.) The best suicide deepstrike in the game, expendable plasma squads make a super alpha beta strike against many armies.
4.) Access to a ton of cheap anti-infantry fire, way cheaper than other books.

If you made conscripts have say a 6+ save, made units take a -1 to hit penalty for being out of LOS (and potentially reduced some range, but that isn't as needed in the case of a to hit penalty), recost plasma guns to 10-12 points for scions (maybe have millitarum tempestus have their own points table), raise cost on Mortars and Taurox.

Then buff their lesser units and I think they would be fine. They still have a cheap screen for their units, that will last a while but they will need to expose units if they want good shooting, and will have a bit less shooting overall.

-1 to hit for out of LOS firing and you'd never see arty again in competitive as long as Raven Guard and Alpha Legion are a thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You could bring back minimum ranges for arty again, which would serm more reasonable than giving a flat -1 to hit and allowing for counterplay.