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CSM book states if I have any CSM detachments I can use the stratagems in the book.

I'll use an extreme example (this is not a real list). So with the setup below would I be able to use Veterans of the Long War on the Scarab terminators since they are HERETIC ASTARTES INFANTRY or Tide of Traitors on the cultists?

I can't see a reason why not.

Supreme Command, Black Legion
Abaddon
Daemon Prince
Exalted

Battalion, Thousand Sons
Ahriman
Sorcerer
Rubrics
Rubrics
Cultists
Scarabs




It also seems as though I can give a character in the TS detachment an artefact as well?

CSM book also disallows Death Guard and Thousand Sons from using its rules. The only thing these legions can take is Thousand Sons are allowed to use the expanded Dark Hereticus discipline (and that's not in the book itself).

I believe its on the page that starts the strategems/relics section but I don't have a number, at work right now.

Edit: Page 156, according to a post in the 1k Sons tactics thread.

Ah, I see that now, thanks. Shucks.

I suppose i'll just have to put the scarabs in a Vanguard (or an Aux perhaps) with an HQ and a couple other elites and stick the rubrics and cultists in as black legion.

This is actually a point of contention. I do believe GW's RAI are clear; however you gain access to the stratagems by having a pure CSM detachment. The line about DG and TS not being able to use things on the pages that follow have already been partially violated since GW allowed TS to use the expanded psychic trees.

I don't plan on taking advantage of this until it gets FAQ'd, which hopefully will happen with the release of the DG codex, but it's definitely less clear than I would hope it to be. And I say this even with seeing the line that Jacksmiles is referring to.

Never minds, half asleeps, but damn well look at these two things back to back and see why I overlooked the second one:

The Death Guard, Thousand Sons and
Fallen deviate significantly in terms of
organisation and fighting styles. As a result,
you cannot choose one of these keywords
when determining which Legion a unit in this
codex is from. The rules and abilities for the
Death Guard and Thousand Sons Legions are
detailed in their own codexes, and both of
the datasheets that describe the forces of the
Fallen can be found later in this book.
- Page 116


Note that the Death Guard and Thousand
Sons Legions deviate significantly in terms of
organisation and therefore cannot make use
of any of the rules or abilities listed in this
section; instead they have bespoke rules and
abilities detailed in their own codexes.
- Page 156

Far as I was concerned, there was no way to take The Death Guard or Thousand Sons as a <legion> and that is why there is simply no Legion Traits or the likes for them....
Why would I look for a duplicate Restriction later in the book?!!

However, a further point of contention is that the Thousand Sons aren't the ones making use of a stratagem. They are benefiting from such a stratagem but it's the chaos player himself making use of them.

This is supported by the fact that Imperium-wide abilities like Guilliman's aura or buffing a unit with psykers seem to affect Dark Angels despite them having the same line about not being able to use etc etc. It's not the unit in question using the ability, they're merely gaining the benefits of another unit using their legally acquired ability. Stratagems seem to occur at the army level as they are not limited to a per detachment scope.

Quite the debate has sprung up around this wording, which has similarly left people to wonder whether your own stratagems can affect legal targets the enemy or some allied player possesses as well.

Chaos Space Marine stratagems can only be used on chaos space marines. That is, <legion> units which are not Thousand Sons or Death Guard

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Chaos Space Marine stratagems can only be used on chaos space marines. That is, <legion> units which are not Thousand Sons or Death Guard

Find that somewhere in the book or rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
A common claim is that because it says Chaos Space Marine Stratagem or Night Lords Stratagem, that's the only unit that can benefit from it. But this isn't supported anywhere. It can just as easily be the detachment requirement for accepting ownership of the stratagem, such as possessing an Alpha Legion detachment to gain access to an Alpha Legion stratagem with any restrictions are printed on the stratagems themselves.

Definition of chaos space marine is in the codex, start of p156.

The stratagems are chaos space Marine stratagems. Also, thousand sons and Death Guard are banned from using them. I don't see any ambiguity

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Definition of chaos space marine is in the codex, start of p156.

The stratagems are chaos space Marine stratagems. Also, thousand sons and Death Guard are banned from using them. I don't see any ambiguity

The definition of chaos space marine is not in contention, irrelevant point presented.
The stratagems being chaos space marine stratagems do not limit them to chaos space marines only unless you would like to cite a rule instead of making up your own interpretations.
Thousand Sons and Death Guard do not use stratagems anymore than a Dark Angel uses another unit's aura. The player uses the stratagem and decides what unit to target, quite like a psyker ability.

I see plenty of ambiguity. Quote a rule supporting your position if you wish to remove any ambiguity. Not the one pertaining to chaos space marine definitions because as mentioned that definition is not in contention. What you seem to be arguing is that there is some well-defined rule that declares what Stratagem targets are acceptable when the stratagems themselves already define that parameter. As there are two possible reasons for calling them Chaos Space Marine Stratagems and you've merely opted to side with the interpretation you favor, I see room for ambiguity until confirmed otherwise.

Keep in mind you can make an army of "Thousand Suns" (misspelled on purpose) using the chaos codex, then make your hq a sorcerer with Mark of tzeench, take 3 squads of rubric marines as elites, and still have full access to the stratagems and relics and traites as you want. You can say your army is a detachment of the black legion, from a long forgotten part of the 9th black crusade which showed up at the wrong time due to warp issues. There is nothing stopping you from this. The only issue appears if your trying to get the rubric as troop choices.

I have a bud going through this right now with death guard, he has a bunch of bikers that have been nurgle since 4th ed. Now he can't take them in the new death guard codex. So he is struggling with his options as far as making a chaos army, or selling them and following the death guard codex, or using a dual detachment system for units that are use able as death guard and units that are chaos marines that just also sort of like nurgle (we are calling them the death posers right now lol).

The issue here is that the chaos codex says that a stratagem can't be used by tsons or dg, not it can't be used on plauge marines and rubric marines. So if part of your army is coming from tsons and the other half not it depends on the stratagem. So if the stratagem targets a friendly chaos unit and you choose a thousand sons model then no, you can't do that.

God my head hurts, I am not helping much am I....

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Definition of chaos space marine is in the codex, start of p156.

The stratagems are chaos space Marine stratagems. Also, thousand sons and Death Guard are banned from using them. I don't see any ambiguity

I do believe this is their intent but they do need to clarify. As Arkaine pointed out, it appears that you unlock the strategems and psychic powers for your whole army by having a pure CSM detachement (non TS and non DG). This may enable you to make use of the CSM strategems for DG and/or TS.

I don't recommend telling your opponent one way or the other that it's super clear or super RAW, as I don't think either of those claims are valid. Let's hope for an FAQ

You know what is funny is the codex says you can't use any of the rules in "this section" which includes the heretic powers, yet they say expressly that Thousand Sons can use the new powers......https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/08/13/daemons-and-thousand-sons-in-codex-chaos-space-marines-aug-13gw-homepage-post-2/

 xeen wrote:
You know what is funny is the codex says you can't use any of the rules in "this section" which includes the heretic powers, yet they say expressly that Thousand Sons can use the new powers......https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/08/13/daemons-and-thousand-sons-in-codex-chaos-space-marines-aug-13gw-homepage-post-2/

That is very much a temporary permission, until the TS codex drops.