Aaranis wrote:
So here's my view on the new relics from the Codex, I'll be expressing my advice with each of them both in a competitive and non-competitive environment. Warning, this will be really lengthy.

Spoiler:

If your army is led by an Adeptus Mechanicus warlord, then you can give one relic to an Adeptus Mechanicus Character. Keep in mind named Characters like Belisarius Cawl can't have any relics, so I'll be giving advice based on the generic Characters. You have access to one free relic, and can buy a second one for 1 CP, or a third one for 3 CP (1 Relic = Free, 2 Relics = 1 CP, 3 Relics = 3 CP).

ARCANA MECHANICUM

Universal:
Pater Cog-Tooth: Replaces an Omnissian Axe, so usable by a Tech-Priest Dominus or an Enginseer. It gives 1 more Strength and 1 more Damage than an ordinary axe. It would be a waste on an Enginseer with his poor CC skill, but a Dominus would hit at S6 with it. It's an odd statline, because you wouldn't face that much T6 models except against Xeno armies like Aeldari flavours or Tyranids. It would probably be best against the latter, as Tyranids are more likely to face you in CC than Drukhari Raiders for example. Could be useful on a Stygies VIII Warlord with the Xenarites Studies trait, as you'd add +1 to your Wound rolls and so wound T7 models on 4+. So it's a highly specific relic that could be useful in a Xeno-heavy meta, otherwise you'd be best to leave it in the reliquary.

Anzion's Pseudogenetor: Each time the bearer fights, it can make 1D6 additional attacks with this S4 AP-1 D1 weapon. Clearly meant to deal with hordes, you could use this on a backfield character, like a Datasmith or Tech-Priest, to deal with tarpits that reach your artillery so as to dispose of them faster and get back firing earlier. Otherwise, could be used offensively against horde armies with a Tech-Priest supported by Infiltrators with Tasers for clearing the area. There are more useful relics, but it's not terrible either.

Autocaduceus of Arkhan Land: The bearer regains 1W lost earlier each turn, and allows him to reroll the die for the number of Wounds repaired when repairing a friendly Adeptus Mechanicus unit. It's a great relic, best used on a Dominus dedicated to repairing your artillery like Onagers and Robots, as it greatly enhances the lifespan of those units. Best used with the Necromechanic Warlord trait, as you'll reliably heal between 2 and 4 Wounds per turn, maybe double that if used with the Tech-Adept stratagem. Your Onager ate a Lascannon shot ? There it's fixed. The regenerating 1W per turn in just the cherry on the cake, in case Snipers noticed you you just heal between 2 and 4 Wounds with your Dominus each turn. A must-have in any army that relies on its artillery.

Uncreator Gauntlet: Replaces a Power Fist, so usable only by your Datasmith. It's a regular Power Fist that deals a Mortal wound each time you successfully wound a Vehicle with it. Not worth wasting a slot for this most of the time, the only use I could see for it is to make your Datasmith useful when accompanying Punching Bots, but it's a highly situational/useless Relic otherwise.

Phosphoenix: Replaces a Phosphor Serpenta, so usable only by a Tech-Priest Dominus. It's a S5 AP-3 D1 Ignore Cover Assault weapon. I don't see the use of this to be honest, its statline being great against TEQ but you'd still need the 3 shots to hope to bring one down so that looks like an underperforming weapon to me. Could be used with the Xenarit Studies Warlord trait to wound Xeno T6 units on a 4+ but that's a lot of adjusting to do to make it usable. Not worth a Relic Slot.

Raiment of the Technomartyrs: Gives the bearer a 6+ FnP equivalent, and each time a friendly <Forge-World> model within 6" of the bearer shoots in Overwatch and obtains a 6 to Hit, this model can make a bonus attack with the same weapon (this bonus attack can't generate more bonus attacks). The only way I see to make this item useful barring the FnP is to use it near Corpuscarii Electro-Priests to try to trigger even more Tesla shots, otherwise hoping to have one or two more shots in Overwatch won't likely change the game. Congrats if you manage to get a bonus Neutron Laser attack with it, though. I'd not recommend it, but it's a way to add more survivability to a character otherwise.

The Skull of Elder Nikola: Once per game, in your Shooting phase, the bearer can use this to deal one Mortal Wound to each enemy Vehicle unit within 2D6" on a roll of 2+. Not worth it at all, keep away from this. One mortal Wound will never help you more than the other available relics we have access to.

Omniscient Mask: Allows you to reroll failed Hit rolls in CC for friendly Skitarii units within 6" of the bearer. The only Skitarii units that would benefit this are the Sicarians and Dragoons, and they'll both be faster and most likely far away from your relic bearer. Using the Conqueror Doctrina Imperative for 1 CP is costlier but far more effective than this relic, because they'll hit on a 2+ and their Taser weapons will proc on a 5+ for Infiltrators and 4+ for Dragoons. A way to use this would be if somehow you screened your backline with Sicarians near your relic bearer and artillery and want to defend against a charge more efficiently, but it's still a situational relic that'd be best left for another one.

Forge-World specific:
Graia - The Cerebral Techno-Mite: Tech-Priest Dominus only, gives +1 CP at the start of the battle if your army is Battleforged. Don't buy another relic for this obviously. Could benefit a Graia Detachment if you're hungry for CPs, but as it will be your only relic you'll have to consider if it's absolutely necessary to have this bonus CP. I'd not recommend it, seeing how easier it is to grab CPs now that we have a 52 pts HQ.

Mars - The Red Axe: Replaces an Omnissian Axe to give it an AP-5 profile instead of AP-1. It's not great at all, as your Dominus/Enginseer won't have enough Strength to reliably wound the targets that have a 2+ armour save. Avoid !

Lucius - The Solar Flare: Once per game, at the end of any of your Movement phases, the bearer can teleport instead of moving normally. Remove him from the Battlefield and replace him anywhere within 30" of his previous position and 9" away from any enemy units. Could be useful when playing Maelstrom missions when you have a card that asks your Warlord to control a certain objective for example, given there's no enemy nearby. Could be useful to save your Warlord's backside from a tedious situation and deny your opponent the Slay the Warlord.

Metalica - Adamantine Arm: Gives a Melee S*3 AP-3 D3 weapon to the relic bearer. You can only hit once each time the bearer fights in CC with it though, so hitting at S12 might be tempting but for just 3 Damage you'd best leave it where it is. Not worth taking.

Stygies VIII - The Omnissiah's Hand: The bearer rolls a die at the end of each Fight phase for each enemy unit within 1" of him, on a 4+ that unit suffers a Mortal Wound. Could be useful if your bearer gets assaulted by Characters or something, but in that case he will probably die before fighting anyway so it's not worth picking this relic.

Ryza - Weapon XCIX: Replaces a Volkite Blaster, so usable by a Tech-Priest Dominus only. Changes the profile to a S7 AP-1 D2 weapon with the same Mortal wound on a 6+ to Wound ability. If you run Ryza and really want a powerful weapon for your Dominus this can be nice, as it's a nice anti-vehicle weapon, but keep in mind you have access to the First-hand Field Testing Warlord trait that gives +1S and +1D to a weapon of your choice barring a relic, so you just win a AP-1 with this. It's a choice between a relic slot and a Warlord trait.

Agrippina - Eye of Lexum: At the beginning of each of your Shooting phases, pick an enemy Vehicle unit within 18" of the bearer, and all friendly Agripinaa units can reroll 1s to Wound against that target until the end of the phase. If the target is a Chaos Vehicle, you can reroll all failed to Wound rolls against that target until the end of the phase instead. Can be great when used with Onagers, when you really need to destroy a Vehicle.

Phew, there it is. Feel free to correct me if needed or offer other tactical uses for Relics. Don't hesitate to shorten it if you want to have this in the 1st post too

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I don't agree with Weapon X being usable. It loses two shots for not much of a better profile.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Here are two first drafts of some general strategies I think all AdMech players should be aware of.

Wrathbots

Spoiler:

This strategy revolves around a specific combination of models, rules, and strategems. The concept is simple, but gives our already powerful Kastelan robots an added buff.

Forge World: Mars
Strategem(s): Wrath of Mars (2CP), Binharic Override (1CP)
Key Units:
Belisarius Cawl
4-6 Dakkastelan
Datasmith [Optional]

Overview:
The “Dakkastelan” - or a Kastelan Robot configured with a trio of Heavy Phosphor blasters - is the lynchpin and ideally we want to take a larger squad for economy of CP. Each Robot puts out 9 shots in Aegis (the default) or 18 when in Protector Protocols.

Once your Robots and Cawl are in position, you either switch to Protector Protocols via a Datasmith or Binharic Override. The unit of Dakkastelans should be within Cawl’s Lord of Mars Aura. This allows all friendly Mars units to re-roll their to-hit rolls in the Shooting Phase. The volume of fire plus the increased number of hits via re-rolls means that when we use Wrath of Mars, we have a large pool of hits which will ideally translate to additional Mortal Wounds.

This simple strategy enables our already deadly Robot unit to deliver a staggering number of Mortal Wounds, giving us an answer to large threats like Magnus.

By-the-Numbers
Six Dakkastelans puts out 108 shots in Protector Protocols. On average rolls with Cawl’s Aura, this translates to roughly 80 hits. The likelihood of rolling a 6 to trigger a Mortal Wound via Wrath of Mars is 16%, meaning around 13 mortal wounds in a single round of shooting in addition to our standard damage. This is why Wrathbots will be a staple of all AdMech lists, because being able to one-round extremely tough units is an asset. It also increases our overall damage pool, meaning we can wipe out additional models from units, making this a solid strategy for knocking out must-kill horde units in addition to tough single-model units.

Goondozer

Spoiler:

This strategy is a general formation of models utilizing specific buffs. Sydonian Dragoons with Taser Lances under Conqueror Doctrina Imperative and the Chant of the Remorseless Fist Canticle. Due to the addition of -1 AP to the Taser Lance and the new strategem, this unit becomes our premier close-combat unit.

Forge World: Stygies
Stategem(s): Conqueror Doctrina Imperative (1CP), Clandestine Infiltration (1CP), Machine Spirit's Revenge (1 CP) [Optional]
Canticle(s): Chant of the Remorseless Fist
Key Untis: 4+ Sydonian Dragoons w/ Taser Lances

Overview:
This strategy is straight-forward and powerful. Forge World Stygies adds an additional layer of protection from shooting, adding to our innate -1 to-hit via Incense Cloud, for a total of -2 to-hit from shooting outside of 12”. This is a major boon to keep our unit alive so it can close in and start getting locked into combat(s). Via Clandestine Infiltration, we can position our Dragoons as close as we dare to the opponent’s units - given that we can make our normal movement of 10” and declare out charge, we do not need to be so close as to allow the enemy to move up and shoot within 12”, though. Position just where you think best via pre-measuring movements/ranges to enable a likely charge.

Each Dragoon has a Broad Spectrum Data-tether, which is a prerequisite for the Conqueror Doctrina Imperative to provide its maximum benefit, which is +2 to-hit in the Fight phase. The reason this is impressive is due to the Taser Lance triggering on a 6+, meaning under this strategem it will trigger on a 4+, leading to significantly improved chances to get the three hits instead of just one.

In addition to the strategem, we should strive to get the Chant of the Remorseless Fist activated, to allow us to maximize our hit potential via re-rolling 1’s in the Fight Phase. This gives us more chances to roll 4+ and have our single miss turn into three hits instead. With the addition of -1 AP on our weapons and the high strength of the attacks translating our increased volume of attacks into a high volume of wounds, we should be able to put out a solid amount of damage in a single round. Given the nature of our army, having a solid close-combat element can be vital for locking into place units while we address others via our artillery.

By-the-Numbers
A unit of six Sydonian Dragoons with Taser Lances will start with three attacks each, for a total of eighteen initial attacks. Half of these will result in a 4+, meaning 27 attacks from our exploding hits. Of the 2 or 3 misses we get via 1’s, when we re-roll via Chant, we will get an additional 1 or 2 hits - for additional chances to explode. This translates into about 30ish hits or more, meaning against most enemies we are wound on 2+, for a total of about 25 wounds at -1 AP. Even against toughness 8 models, we are doing 15 wounds. Those are the two most common scenarios for our Goondozer unit to encounter. Given our high toughness, modest wounds, and somewhat mediocre save (4+), it would likely not be prudent to engage dedicated melee units, especially those with weapons that do d3 and d6 damage. That being said, we can always do a last resort Machine Spirit's Revenge when one of our Dragoons inevitably dies - exploding automatically and causing 1 mortal wound to each unit within 3”. Not particularly deadly, but in some instances it might prove useful.

Let me know if I missed anything or if I mucked up the math or anything (because as has been established, I am awful at it).

I am currently working on getting my last Robot done and starting additional Dragoons (UGH!), plus looking to grab some more Snipetarii, just because I expect to see a load of Soup lists and I am curious to see how six Martian Snipers handle them,

 Aaranis wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I don't agree with Weapon X being usable. It loses two shots for not much of a better profile.

It's still Heavy 3... Where are you guys reading it as only having one shot ? Second time I read this on Dakka. A faulty leak from before the codex ?

Wayniac wrote:
So post-codex, how are Kataphron Destroyers looking? I still have 6 that I never put together, and they are really cool looking models.

Also, which Knight (if any) is worth including in a Superheavy Aux detachment? What I would have comes to just under 1500 points, so a Knight would nicely take me to 2k and provide a cool centerpiece model for the army.

Wulfey wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Here are two first drafts of some general strategies I think all AdMech players should be aware of.

Wrathbots

Spoiler:

This strategy revolves around a specific combination of models, rules, and strategems. The concept is simple, but gives our already powerful Kastelan robots an added buff.

Forge World: Mars
Strategem(s): Wrath of Mars (2CP), Binharic Override (1CP)
Key Units:
Belisarius Cawl
4-6 Dakkastelan
Datasmith [Optional]

Overview:
The “Dakkastelan” - or a Kastelan Robot configured with a trio of Heavy Phosphor blasters - is the lynchpin and ideally we want to take a larger squad for economy of CP. Each Robot puts out 9 shots in Aegis (the default) or 18 when in Protector Protocols.

Once your Robots and Cawl are in position, you either switch to Protector Protocols via a Datasmith or Binharic Override. The unit of Dakkastelans should be within Cawl’s Lord of Mars Aura. This allows all friendly Mars units to re-roll their to-hit rolls in the Shooting Phase. The volume of fire plus the increased number of hits via re-rolls means that when we use Wrath of Mars, we have a large pool of hits which will ideally translate to additional Mortal Wounds.

This simple strategy enables our already deadly Robot unit to deliver a staggering number of Mortal Wounds, giving us an answer to large threats like Magnus.

By-the-Numbers
Six Dakkastelans puts out 108 shots in Protector Protocols. On average rolls with Cawl’s Aura, this translates to roughly 80 hits. The likelihood of rolling a 6 to trigger a Mortal Wound via Wrath of Mars is 16%, meaning around 13 mortal wounds in a single round of shooting in addition to our standard damage. This is why Wrathbots will be a staple of all AdMech lists, because being able to one-round extremely tough units is an asset. It also increases our overall damage pool, meaning we can wipe out additional models from units, making this a solid strategy for knocking out must-kill horde units in addition to tough single-model units.

Goondozer

Spoiler:

This strategy is a general formation of models utilizing specific buffs. Sydonian Dragoons with Taser Lances under Conqueror Doctrina Imperative and the Chant of the Remorseless Fist Canticle. Due to the addition of -1 AP to the Taser Lance and the new strategem, this unit becomes our premier close-combat unit.

Forge World: Stygies
Stategem(s): Conqueror Doctrina Imperative (1CP), Clandestine Infiltration (1CP), Machine Spirit's Revenge (1 CP) [Optional]
Canticle(s): Chant of the Remorseless Fist
Key Untis: 4+ Sydonian Dragoons w/ Taser Lances

Overview:
This strategy is straight-forward and powerful. Forge World Stygies adds an additional layer of protection from shooting, adding to our innate -1 to-hit via Incense Cloud, for a total of -2 to-hit from shooting outside of 12”. This is a major boon to keep our unit alive so it can close in and start getting locked into combat(s). Via Clandestine Infiltration, we can position our Dragoons as close as we dare to the opponent’s units - given that we can make our normal movement of 10” and declare out charge, we do not need to be so close as to allow the enemy to move up and shoot within 12”, though. Position just where you think best via pre-measuring movements/ranges to enable a likely charge.

Each Dragoon has a Broad Spectrum Data-tether, which is a prerequisite for the Conqueror Doctrina Imperative to provide its maximum benefit, which is +2 to-hit in the Fight phase. The reason this is impressive is due to the Taser Lance triggering on a 6+, meaning under this strategem it will trigger on a 4+, leading to significantly improved chances to get the three hits instead of just one.

In addition to the strategem, we should strive to get the Chant of the Remorseless Fist activated, to allow us to maximize our hit potential via re-rolling 1’s in the Fight Phase. This gives us more chances to roll 4+ and have our single miss turn into three hits instead. With the addition of -1 AP on our weapons and the high strength of the attacks translating our increased volume of attacks into a high volume of wounds, we should be able to put out a solid amount of damage in a single round. Given the nature of our army, having a solid close-combat element can be vital for locking into place units while we address others via our artillery.

By-the-Numbers
A unit of six Sydonian Dragoons with Taser Lances will start with three attacks each, for a total of eighteen initial attacks. Half of these will result in a 4+, meaning 27 attacks from our exploding hits. Of the 2 or 3 misses we get via 1’s, when we re-roll via Chant, we will get an additional 1 or 2 hits - for additional chances to explode. This translates into about 30ish hits or more, meaning against most enemies we are wound on 2+, for a total of about 25 wounds at -1 AP. Even against toughness 8 models, we are doing 15 wounds. Those are the two most common scenarios for our Goondozer unit to encounter. Given our high toughness, modest wounds, and somewhat mediocre save (4+), it would likely not be prudent to engage dedicated melee units, especially those with weapons that do d3 and d6 damage. That being said, we can always do a last resort Machine Spirit's Revenge when one of our Dragoons inevitably dies - exploding automatically and causing 1 mortal wound to each unit within 3”. Not particularly deadly, but in some instances it might prove useful.

Let me know if I missed anything or if I mucked up the math or anything (because as has been established, I am awful at it).

I am currently working on getting my last Robot done and starting additional Dragoons (UGH!), plus looking to grab some more Snipetarii, just because I expect to see a load of Soup lists and I am curious to see how six Martian Snipers handle them,

I would like to add a line to the goondozer strategy indicating that it can be taken as an auxiliary detachment to a Mars battalion to enable infilitration/deepstriking. This costs 2CP, but it gives a list that has 1100 points of Mars battalion a way to sneak in a Stygies 3-dragoon unit into the list without paying any HQ or troop taxes. Even if you don't infiltrate the goondozer, spending just 1 CP to bring it as an auxiliary gets it that sweet -2 to hit bonus from Stygies.

Wulfey wrote:
I would like to add a line to the goondozer strategy indicating that it can be taken as an auxiliary detachment to a Mars battalion to enable infilitration/deepstriking. This costs 2CP, but it gives a list that has 1100 points of Mars battalion a way to sneak in a Stygies 3-dragoon unit into the list without paying any HQ or troop taxes. Even if you don't infiltrate the goondozer, spending just 1 CP to bring it as an auxiliary gets it that sweet -2 to hit bonus from Stygies.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
So post-codex, how are Kataphron Destroyers looking? I still have 6 that I never put together, and they are really cool looking models.

Also, which Knight (if any) is worth including in a Superheavy Aux detachment? What I would have comes to just under 1500 points, so a Knight would nicely take me to 2k and provide a cool centerpiece model for the army.

Kataphrons still suck. Even their single gimmick strategem is mediocre, imo.

As for Knights, Crusader. Avenger/Thermal/Stormspear loadout. It is actually much improved now that the TC has gone to d6 shots.

Wayniac wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
So post-codex, how are Kataphron Destroyers looking? I still have 6 that I never put together, and they are really cool looking models.

Also, which Knight (if any) is worth including in a Superheavy Aux detachment? What I would have comes to just under 1500 points, so a Knight would nicely take me to 2k and provide a cool centerpiece model for the army.

Kataphrons still suck. Even their single gimmick strategem is mediocre, imo.

As for Knights, Crusader. Avenger/Thermal/Stormspear loadout. It is actually much improved now that the TC has gone to d6 shots.

That's a lot of points, may need to rework some stuff. Shame about the Kataphrons though, I think I'll still use them if only because I got 6 in a deal, and have no Kastelans, so since AdMech is kinda a side army I'm trying to do it relatively cheaply (but still want a knight as a centerpiece)

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Wayniac wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
So post-codex, how are Kataphron Destroyers looking? I still have 6 that I never put together, and they are really cool looking models.

Also, which Knight (if any) is worth including in a Superheavy Aux detachment? What I would have comes to just under 1500 points, so a Knight would nicely take me to 2k and provide a cool centerpiece model for the army.

Kataphrons still suck. Even their single gimmick strategem is mediocre, imo.

As for Knights, Crusader. Avenger/Thermal/Stormspear loadout. It is actually much improved now that the TC has gone to d6 shots.

That's a lot of points, may need to rework some stuff. Shame about the Kataphrons though, I think I'll still use them if only because I got 6 in a deal, and have no Kastelans, so since AdMech is kinda a side army I'm trying to do it relatively cheaply (but still want a knight as a centerpiece)

It is a lot of points, yes, but it is really the only worthwhile configuration (imo). Otherwise, you are spending like 30pt for the chainsword that might never get used, since the Feet are so good at what we need. So for 46pt more we get that TC love.

Wayniac wrote:
True. the Knight Crusader looks cool too.

What options should I give Rangers/Vanguard? My list right now was having one 5x Ranger with Arquebus and two 5x Vanguard with Plasma, not sure of what upgrades to give to the Alphas. I guess the min/max answer is "none" but I don't want to be like that.

Without the Knight Crusader I have (assuming Battlescribe is accurate):

Spoiler:

++ Battalion ++

Forge World: Lucius

++ HQ
Tech-Priest Dominus (135)
- Macrostubber, Axe, Volkite

Tech-Priest Enginseer (52)

++ TROOPS
3x Kataphron Destroyers (216)
- Plasma, Flamer

3x Kataphron Destroyers (216)
- Plasma, Flamer

5x Rangers (81)
- Omnispex
- Alpha w/Taser, Arc Pistol
- 1x Transauranic Arquebus

5x Vanguard (75)
- Omnispex
- Alpha w/Taser, Arc Pistol
- 1x Plasma Caliver

5x Vanguard (75)
- Omnispex
- Alpha w/Taser, Arc Pistol
- 1x Plasma Caliver

++ ELITES
5x Infiltrators (130)
- Flechette Blaster and Taser

++ HEAVY SUPPORT
Onager Dunecrawler (140)
- Neutron Laser & Heavy Stubbre

Onager Dunecrawler (140)
- Neutron Laser & Heavy Stubber

Onager Dunecrawler (130)
- Icarus Array

By my calculations this is just under 1400 points, so I'd have enough for a Crusader and then have like 50 points left for I'm not sure what else (few more guys in the Vanguard/Ranger unit?).

LexOdin9 wrote:
But can you legitimately take them both out before one of them reaches you?

One dakkastelan squad can obv take out one primarch, but the other one will probably reach you and get off a charge.

gendoikari87 wrote:
Not with dragoons you aren't they both fly right over the goon squad

Wayniac wrote:
So if I don't want Mars forgeworld, what's the other good ones? I thought that Lucius was considered to be really good.

Will have to see what else I can do, I don't want to go fully min/maxed since people around me don't play competitive.

Thanks for the advice.

gendoikari87 wrote:
That is a tight road to walk though. How big is the base on the primarchs? Also don't have the books near me what's the defensive stats on both? I know they're at least 10 wounds and have some stupid lolnope bs defenses