Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 generalchaos34 wrote:
So since they have a blanket +1s for catachan does that mean the Vostroyans can look for the fabled 4+ armor save as their regiment, since they all wear carapace armor?

They may get the "all infantry treat -1AP weapons as having -0AP" trait, as this has been used in Admech and GW seem to like reusing traits where possible.

The "-1 to hit if outside 12 inches" trait has been used for all the codex releases so far I think, so I expect that'll be used again too. Don't know who'll get it though, I'm not too hot on IG regiment fluff

I've always loved guard but I find myself hesitant to jump in and start an army of them as their model line seems so mixed up. They are incredibly dated and lack a range of option in the various lines. I'd love to collect Vals or Mords but with such limited lines I can't bring myself to. Shame.

Oh man, tomorrow we get a look at nobody's favorite imperial guard regiment, the Boring-ian Iron Guard! Can't wait to see what kind of static gunline buffs the static gunline subfaction of the gunline faction gets!

Come on GW, their hats are barely the size of their heads! Show us the Vostroyans! (I'm kidding, I know I'll see it within a week )

until then, I'll just have to keep my fingers crossed and continue chanting under my breath "no morale buff trait, no morale buff trait, give the cadians the stupid morale buff trait, anything but a morale buff trait..."

Fancy guns, fancy armor, even a close combat buff would be amusing and allow me to use all my special melee sergeant sculpts, just don't give your best looking model range a boring trait!

People complaining about Catachan tanks getting a buff need to remember that out of the 3 Regiments to get a superheavy tank special character for use in-game, Catachans were one.

Presumably every regiment is going to have a doctrine that does something for vehicles.

Dionysodorus wrote:
Presumably every regiment is going to have a doctrine that does something for vehicles.

Not necessarily. I know IG use a lot of vehicles, but aren't there any regiments that (fluffwise) tend to specialise in troops instead? I'm sure there are. So they'd get a doctrine that works on their troops only.

Much like a regiment that specialised in vehicles might get a doctrine that only works on vehicles. The gunline one that's coming tomorrow might well be that.

Of course, there's nothing stopping you taking two detachments, and having all your troops be A and all your tanks be B and getting the best of both worlds.

Niiru wrote:

 generalchaos34 wrote:
So since they have a blanket +1s for catachan does that mean the Vostroyans can look for the fabled 4+ armor save as their regiment, since they all wear carapace armor?

They may get the "all infantry treat -1AP weapons as having -0AP" trait, as this has been used in Admech and GW seem to like reusing traits where possible.

The "-1 to hit if outside 12 inches" trait has been used for all the codex releases so far I think, so I expect that'll be used again too. Don't know who'll get it though, I'm not too hot on IG regiment fluff

Honestly, I can't see Guard getting that trait unless it's on infantry/veteran squads only. Could you imagine the salt if a 50 man unit of Conscripts was -1 to hit outside of 12"? Get Celestine and a Astropath in there for near Death Guard resilience.

While this doctrine is nice it's not incredibly powerful for most vehicles. It's easy to imagine better ones -- suppose a regiment gets the Salamanders' tactic, for example. For weapons with d6 shots, this doctrine is a 21% increase in firepower if you re-roll any result less than 4. That sounds pretty nice on paper -- it's a bit better than "re-roll hit rolls of 1" -- but of course it only applies to these weapons. For weapons with d3 shots, it's exactly as good as re-rolling 1s to hit (17% better). For a weapon with 2d6 shots it's only a little bit better than re-rolling 1s to hit. For a gun like the Basilisk's, it's only about 11% better. And then it does nothing for guns that don't roll for shots. There are vehicles it's great for, like a Hellhound with multiple flamers, but unless you're also putting heavy flamers on your Russes, it's not a great increase in their overall damage output.

It's almost irrelevant for something like a Shadowsword, because the benefit it provides a unit is only ever worth 1 CP, and the potential benefit it provides is worth much less. If you roll a 3 for the volcano cannon, are you really going to re-roll and risk a 1? You get almost all of the benefit here by re-rolling just 1s and 2s, but of course you only roll a 1 or a 2 one-third of the time. On average you can get these re-rolls for 6 turns for your Shadowsword by spending only 2 CP. You get more than half of the benefit of the doctrine by only re-rolling 1s, and of course this costs you half as much CP, on average. If another regiment has some other sort of firepower buff for Shadowswords, it will probably make sense to take that regiment and then get your shot re-rolls the old-fashioned way.

There are particular compositions that will benefit a lot from this, but it's definitely too soon to say that Catachans are "the tank regiment".

Niiru wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:
Presumably every regiment is going to have a doctrine that does something for vehicles.

Not necessarily. I know IG use a lot of vehicles, but aren't there any regiments that (fluffwise) tend to specialise in troops instead? I'm sure there are. So they'd get a doctrine that works on their troops only.

Much like a regiment that specialised in vehicles might get a doctrine that only works on vehicles. The gunline one that's coming tomorrow might well be that.

Of course, there's nothing stopping you taking two detachments, and having all your troops be A and all your tanks be B and getting the best of both worlds.

It's worth noting that the community article that just went up explicitly says "Every Regimental Doctrine applies to both your infantry and vehicles". Now, some of them might be pretty bad for one or the other -- AdMech got one that lets them re-roll 1s in the Fight phase -- but even without this I think it'd be pretty surprising to have most doctrines doing something for all units and then one that does nothing for half of the codex. So far GW has seemed pretty committed to making sure that every Chapter Tactic type rule gives some benefit to almost every unit that gets access to it. Even some of the very limited ones like Black Legion's at least give +1 Ld to everything.

So, I have a question about the Death Strike's Strategem the Vortex Missile:

Do you have to spend the 3 CP for the stratagem before or after the missile succesfully fires?

If before, it's waaay too many CP for something so unreliable.

Doctoralex wrote:
So, I have a question about the Death Strike's Strategem the Vortex Missile:

Do you have to spend the 3 CP for the stratagem before or after the missile succesfully fires?

If before, it's waaay too many CP for something so unreliable.

You're playing guard. We get command points like nobody's business! If you're starting with less than fifteen you're not even trying. Hah!

Doctoralex wrote:
So, I have a question about the Death Strike's Strategem the Vortex Missile:

Do you have to spend the 3 CP for the stratagem before or after the missile succesfully fires?

If before, it's waaay too many CP for something so unreliable.

If it doesn't fire, does it actually fire?

Ok let's look at this in detail:

First, the following is written about the Deathstrike's special rule. The Hour is Nigh:
The Deathstrike Missile cannot be fired normally in the shooting phase or in overwatch. In a friendly shooting phase, if you wish to fire the Deathstrike Missile, roll a D6 and add the battle round number. If the total result is 8 or more, you can fire the Deathstrike Missile during this shooting phase.

The Strategem says:
-Use this strategem before you fire a Deathstrike Missile.

So... I don't know. If I read this rule correctly, you can choose to 'upgrade' the missile right before it fires. However, it doesn't really make sense that a missile suddenly turns in a Vortex Missile just before you fire it.

You have just answered your own question.

You have to successfully get an 8+ to be able to fire the Deathstrike Missile.

Between getting the 8+ and declaring you're going to fire it, that's when you would use the Stratagem.

I guess it is still open for interpretation, though I doubt it will force you to spend 3 CP, only for the missile to not fire.

Another question: the additional rule 'If a model is wounded but survives, on a 6+ they take an additional D6 Mortal wounds'.

-Is this only for the 'AoE' affected targets, or the main targets too?

-And even though it says the model will suffer D6 mortal wounds, will these wounds spill over to other targets because they are mortal wounds?

Doctoralex wrote:
I guess it is still open for interpretation, though I doubt it will force you to spend 3 CP, only for the missile to not fire.

Another question: the additional rule 'If a model is wounded but survives, on a 6+ they take an additional D6 Mortal wounds'.

-Is this only for the 'AoE' affected targets, or the main targets too?

-And even though it says the model will suffer D6 mortal wounds, will these wounds spill over to other targets because they are mortal wounds?

Raw I would say that they would spill over.

 generalchaos34 wrote:
So since they have a blanket +1s for catachan does that mean the Vostroyans can look for the fabled 4+ armor save as their regiment, since they all wear carapace armor?

Because if guard needs anything right now it's more durable blobs. Maybe if all guard infantry goes up at least 1-2 points, currently normal guard infantry are as durable as cultists from CSM with the alpha legion trait being shot outside 12" and more durable everywhere else.

If guard are getting buffs like 4+ armor without point increases, then balancing conscripts was wasted effort.

Honestly though, I'm hoping they have the sense to see that trap and avoid it. Of course, not good for IG players, but at this point happy IG players means the codex didn't need their broken army enough.

SilverAlien wrote:

 generalchaos34 wrote:
So since they have a blanket +1s for catachan does that mean the Vostroyans can look for the fabled 4+ armor save as their regiment, since they all wear carapace armor?

Because if guard needs anything right now it's more durable blobs. Maybe if all guard infantry goes up at least 1-2 points, currently normal guard infantry are as durable as cultists from CSM with the alpha legion trait being shot outside 12" and more durable everywhere else.

If guard are getting buffs like 4+ armor without point increases, then balancing conscripts was wasted effort.

Honestly though, I'm hoping they have the sense to see that trap and avoid it. Of course, not good for IG players, but at this point happy IG players means the codex didn't need their broken army enough.

That's a good point actually. I mean, guard infantry like conscripts were already seen as being just generally too good for their low points cost, considering what they are capable of doing with orders... but now they're exactly the same as before, but also with +1 strenght and +1 leadership...

And that's a lot of bodies on the table getting a free +1 to strength. Sure, they're not great in melee, but suddenly they're better at melee combat than orks are are shooting... and still better at shooting than orks are in melee.

I have to hope that there's some big points increases coming, or limits to what can take doctrines.

Regarding Vostroyans, I suspect we'll see something playing into the more mechanized style of warfare, the higher average quality of their equipment (both weapons and armor) and their strong ties to the Adeptus Mechanicus.

For any not aware of the fluff, Vostroya is governed by a joint council of both Adeptus Mechanicus and standard imperial government. They work very closely together and have strong ties as a result, which shows in the quality of the arms and armament of the Firstborn regiment of Vostroya. I am intensely curious to see what they get in terms of rules, and stratagems.

Also, on a personal note as to why I love playing the Firstborn.

They just know, they don't think, they KNOW, that they are better than any other regiment. They're arrogant, but back up that arrogance when boots hit the ground and LOVE to show off against other regiments they do battle beside.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Niiru wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:

 generalchaos34 wrote:
So since they have a blanket +1s for catachan does that mean the Vostroyans can look for the fabled 4+ armor save as their regiment, since they all wear carapace armor?

Because if guard needs anything right now it's more durable blobs. Maybe if all guard infantry goes up at least 1-2 points, currently normal guard infantry are as durable as cultists from CSM with the alpha legion trait being shot outside 12" and more durable everywhere else.

If guard are getting buffs like 4+ armor without point increases, then balancing conscripts was wasted effort.

Honestly though, I'm hoping they have the sense to see that trap and avoid it. Of course, not good for IG players, but at this point happy IG players means the codex didn't need their broken army enough.

That's a good point actually. I mean, guard infantry like conscripts were already seen as being just generally too good for their low points cost, considering what they are capable of doing with orders... but now they're exactly the same as before, but also with +1 strenght and +1 leadership...

And that's a lot of bodies on the table getting a free +1 to strength. Sure, they're not great in melee, but suddenly they're better at melee combat than orks are are shooting... and still better at shooting than orks are in melee.

I have to hope that there's some big points increases coming, or limits to what can take doctrines.

You can only issue one order per officer (except Creed who gets three) per turn. With Infantry Squads being capped at ten men, if you're spamming Guardsmen you're going to be running out of Orders to give out long before you are Squads. Orders were powerful on Conscripts because you had up to 50 men with First Rank, Fire! and so forth, not 10 (and only 10) of them.

Also, you're actually worried about Guardsmen with +1 STRENGTH? Really? There's a reason we're not seeing Poxwalkers with Typhus dominate the meta.

If there's a problem going forward then it's going to be Imperial Soup. Of course, Imperial Guard alone will get the blame.

 Arbitrator wrote:

Niiru wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:

 generalchaos34 wrote:
So since they have a blanket +1s for catachan does that mean the Vostroyans can look for the fabled 4+ armor save as their regiment, since they all wear carapace armor?

Because if guard needs anything right now it's more durable blobs. Maybe if all guard infantry goes up at least 1-2 points, currently normal guard infantry are as durable as cultists from CSM with the alpha legion trait being shot outside 12" and more durable everywhere else.

If guard are getting buffs like 4+ armor without point increases, then balancing conscripts was wasted effort.

Honestly though, I'm hoping they have the sense to see that trap and avoid it. Of course, not good for IG players, but at this point happy IG players means the codex didn't need their broken army enough.

That's a good point actually. I mean, guard infantry like conscripts were already seen as being just generally too good for their low points cost, considering what they are capable of doing with orders... but now they're exactly the same as before, but also with +1 strenght and +1 leadership...

And that's a lot of bodies on the table getting a free +1 to strength. Sure, they're not great in melee, but suddenly they're better at melee combat than orks are are shooting... and still better at shooting than orks are in melee.

I have to hope that there's some big points increases coming, or limits to what can take doctrines.

You can only issue one order per officer (except Creed who gets three) per turn. With Infantry Squads being capped at ten men, if you're spamming Guardsmen you're going to be running out of Orders to give out long before you are Squads. Orders were powerful on Conscripts because you had up to 50 men with First Rank, Fire! and so forth, not 10 (and only 10) of them.

Also, you're actually worried about Guardsmen with +1 STRENGTH? Really? There's a reason we're not seeing Poxwalkers with Typhus dominate the meta.

If there's a problem going forward then it's going to be Imperial Soup. Of course, Imperial Guard alone will get the blame.

The issue is that it isn't exactly hard to spam officers or squads.

 Arbitrator wrote:

Niiru wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:

 generalchaos34 wrote:
So since they have a blanket +1s for catachan does that mean the Vostroyans can look for the fabled 4+ armor save as their regiment, since they all wear carapace armor?

Because if guard needs anything right now it's more durable blobs. Maybe if all guard infantry goes up at least 1-2 points, currently normal guard infantry are as durable as cultists from CSM with the alpha legion trait being shot outside 12" and more durable everywhere else.

If guard are getting buffs like 4+ armor without point increases, then balancing conscripts was wasted effort.

Honestly though, I'm hoping they have the sense to see that trap and avoid it. Of course, not good for IG players, but at this point happy IG players means the codex didn't need their broken army enough.

That's a good point actually. I mean, guard infantry like conscripts were already seen as being just generally too good for their low points cost, considering what they are capable of doing with orders... but now they're exactly the same as before, but also with +1 strenght and +1 leadership...

And that's a lot of bodies on the table getting a free +1 to strength. Sure, they're not great in melee, but suddenly they're better at melee combat than orks are are shooting... and still better at shooting than orks are in melee.

I have to hope that there's some big points increases coming, or limits to what can take doctrines.

You can only issue one order per officer (except Creed who gets three) per turn. With Infantry Squads being capped at ten men, if you're spamming Guardsmen you're going to be running out of Orders to give out long before you are Squads. Orders were powerful on Conscripts because you had up to 50 men with First Rank, Fire! and so forth, not 10 (and only 10) of them.

Also, you're actually worried about Guardsmen with +1 STRENGTH? Really? There's a reason we're not seeing Poxwalkers with Typhus dominate the meta.

If there's a problem going forward then it's going to be Imperial Soup. Of course, Imperial Guard alone will get the blame.

You can spam a bunch of officers for dirt cheap though, so you're unlikely to be short on orders.

And 50 conscripts with First Rank Fire and their current points costs etc etc are already very, very good. So giving them a free +1S, and so letting them wound space marines and orks on a 4+ instead of a 5+, or eldar on a 3+ instead of a 4+... I mean they'd basically be the best of both worlds. Loads of shooting attacks, and still able to deal damage in melee if you try and attack them.

I'm not saying a single human with +1S is scary. But a big blob of guardsmen, who are already annoyingly powerful, also getting +1S, is. As a whole, they would be way too overpowered. And this is just the catachan doctrine, who knows what others might get.

Unless, they get a points increase.

Can we at least see the codex before we decide IG squads are OP?

 crimsondave wrote:
Can we at least see the codex before we decide IG squads are OP?

I thought IG squads were already OP?

We can wait and see the codex before deciding if IG squads are balanced though

Niiru wrote:

 crimsondave wrote:
Can we at least see the codex before we decide IG squads are OP?

I thought IG squads were already OP?

We can wait and see the codex before deciding if IG squads are balanced though

Who knew? So I guess my army full of regulars (with zero conscripts) to keep from being "that guy" will make me "that guy" anyway.

 crimsondave wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 crimsondave wrote:
Can we at least see the codex before we decide IG squads are OP?

I thought IG squads were already OP?

We can wait and see the codex before deciding if IG squads are balanced though

Who knew? So I guess my army full of regulars (with zero conscripts) to keep from being "that guy" will make me "that guy" anyway.

To be honest, I thought scions were the worst offenders. Didn't even occur to me conscripts might be considered overpowered until I read it on dakka ha.

So question about the +1 str, to catachans. Does this apply also to harker and straken? If so straken is pretty killy in cc.

Niiru wrote:

 crimsondave wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 crimsondave wrote:
Can we at least see the codex before we decide IG squads are OP?

I thought IG squads were already OP?

We can wait and see the codex before deciding if IG squads are balanced though

Who knew? So I guess my army full of regulars (with zero conscripts) to keep from being "that guy" will make me "that guy" anyway.

To be honest, I thought scions were the worst offenders. Didn't even occur to me conscripts might be considered overpowered until I read it on dakka ha.

Not Conscripts in specific that are dominating the tourney scene, though to come away from some of the discussions here you'd wonder why anyone would field anything else - super unkillable all-destroying ubermen that they are portrayed to be.

No, in tourney lists the problem is clearly that they're exceptionally durable bubble wrap/objective holders for a pretty efficient points cost. Such as the GT winner's list here. Conscripts are just letting him bubble wrap and screen his real damage dealers extremely effectively (such as the nine Smite-dealing Psychic units/characters) - they're not winning him the tourney single-handed as the hyperbolic try to claim.

 Cptskillet wrote:
So question about the +1 str, to catachans. Does this apply also to harker and straken? If so straken is pretty killy in cc.

It does apply to HQ infantry as well, yes. Not sure how you're gonna get Straken into position to do any punching, though.

Straken is still probably going to be more valuable for his +1 attack bubble than his own melee output, especially since +1 on a 1-attack model is a fairly big deal.

It will basically turn his fist into an autocannon hit though. Throw in a Priest for good measure. Since infantry squads are 10 models you can pile an infantry squad, Straken, and a Priest into a Chimera for surprise assault Guard.

Of course reliance on a special character means you can only pull that stunt on one part of the board, probably with two, maybe three squads at most. The look on your opponent's face when he realizes Fix Bayonets isn't a joke, though...

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Cptskillet wrote:
So question about the +1 str, to catachans. Does this apply also to harker and straken? If so straken is pretty killy in cc.

It does apply to HQ infantry as well, yes. Not sure how you're gonna get Straken into position to do any punching, though.

My plan was to stick him with some bullgryns, and nork and jolly right up the middle and bounce those dang rounds off his abs of steel.