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 ChargerIIC wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
I like how you can pay CP to get "free stuff." So, you can really fit 2400+ points in a 2000 point list, again.

I can't hear you over your chapter master stratgem

*sound of CSM players crying*

I'm so happy we're now shaping up to be so competitive after years of being such a joke.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 ChargerIIC wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
I like how you can pay CP to get "free stuff." So, you can really fit 2400+ points in a 2000 point list, again.

I can't hear you over your chapter master stratgem

*sound of CSM players crying*

Tide of Traitors is literally a copy of SITNW. You just can't use it on marines or terminators because that would be silly.

So given that just about every regiment stat has leaked, which do you think would work best for an armored company?

Catachans get to reroll some of their random d6 weapons.

Mordian tanks get to overwatch on 4+

Cadians get to reroll 1s while stationary and presumably have Pask (which is redundant as hell with the ability, but still a WS2+ platform).

Steel legion gets to treat AP1 as AP0 vs their vehicles.

Vostroyans get to add 6" range to every weapon.

Valhallan vehicles count double their wounds when determining degradation tables (only start degrading at 3 wounds and lower)

Tallarn vehicles get to fire all vehicle weapons at full BS after moving.

I personally think the Valhallan one is probably best for an armored company? They can take 3 additional wounds before it starts to matter (their BS drops). But everything else Valhallan has is so pointless. I dunno, man. I wish steel legion was better. Treat AP1 as AP0 vs vehicles? Who in their right mind would be firing AP1 vs vehicles anyway?
And Cadian rerolling 1s while standing still?... You mean what Pask, master of ordinance, and Yarrick ALREADY DO? What's the friggin' point?

ThePorcupine wrote:
But everything else Valhallan has is so pointless

Only if Commissars stay the way they are. I really hope they don't, and then getting half the deaths from morale might be big.

It'll depend on what you're taking, obviously -- if you like Punishers then you don't get much out of Catachans -- but it seems to me that the obvious choices are Catachans and Vostroyans. The others strike me as only of limited use for an armored company.

Mordians: Overwatching on a 5+ is not bad, but you don't generally want your tanks to get charged at all. Everyone has access to the +1 to Overwatch stratagem, and if you're using that when it's advantageous to do so then Mordians are only getting you a 50% boost to Overwatch.

Steel Legion is pretty bad if you're bringing Leman Russes and Baneblades since the only AP-1 anti-tank weapon is the S7 autocannon. It shuts down a Guilliman gunline which relies on wound re-rolls to push heavy bolters and assault cannons through T7 and T8, but that's about it.

Valhallans get +1 to hit on 1 vehicle, on some turns. You will rarely get anything out of this for multiple vehicles at once and you will often get nothing out of it at all. This is nice but it's just not a huge effect. Granted, I'm ignoring the effect on melee attacks and move speed.

Tallarn is not really what you want for Russes since they want to be moving at half speed to fire twice, and they get nothing out of the doctrine for their main guns. It's nice for Chimeras I guess. Super-heavies can advance and fire at -1, which is maybe useful with Crush Them but note that you can just use Crush Them anyway without advancing with other regiments in order to hit on 2+ in melee.

That leaves Catachans, Cadians, and Vostroyans.

Cadians aren't bad at all. It's a generic 17% buff if you're sitting still, and that's easy to do with Russes. There's just something of an Ultramarines/Mars problem here where a special character (Harker) makes another regiment a lot more appealing.

Vostroyans seem mostly useful with 24" guns. That extra 6" is potentially a huge deal with punisher and demolisher cannons. Especially punishers since they don't benefit from the Catachan doctrine and you probably need to move so you won't benefit from the Cadian doctrine either. Supposedly they also have a +1 to hit stratagem, which lets them duplicate the Valhallan doctrine at will.

Catachans seem like the obvious pick for battle cannons, and Harker is obviously fantastic.

jaxor1983 wrote:
So has anyone considered that battle cannons on regular leman russes are now nearly as good as baneblade cannons (and a million less points)?

Perhaps they will let baneblades shoot twice too!

Leman Russ Battle Cannon, moving 6" to fire twice: 2D6 shots, STR8 AP-3-2, D3 damage
Baneblade Cannon, can move full distance with no loss in effectiveness: 2D6 shots, STR9, AP-3, 3 damage.

Against other Tanks, or even tougher targets, the Baneblade Cannon's strength wins out. Better AP value, and reliable 3 damage, instead of D3. So no, not "nearly" as good.

jaxor1983 wrote:So has anyone considered that battle cannons on regular leman russes are now nearly as good as baneblade cannons (and a million less points)?

Perhaps they will let baneblades shoot twice too!

I heard from the Warhammer TV stuff that the superheavy weapons are getting a buff, though I have lost my subscription and therefore cannot go back and check what exactly they were on about.


As for armoured company: My superheavy tanks still don't know which regiment to pick.

Catachan is an incremental firepower increase.

Vostroyans are neat but the range is largely unnecessary (though it helps the stormsword siege tanks)

Valhallans are cool but will only help one tank at a time if the enemy isn't a derp.

Tallarn (if the rumor about how superheavies are going to turn all their weapons to Assault since they already don't suffer the penalty to moving & shooting) would be fun to zoom around like a mazda commercial.

Steel Legion are phbbbbt.

Cadians are right out, as I already use 1 trojan / tank, which means I re-roll all misses.

Right now I'm leaning towards Vostroyans. While the range increase doesn't help battlecannons all that much, everything else on a Russ tends to be relatively short ranged. So it will certainly help those bolter/plasma/melta sponsons reach something.

And in the case of punishers, demolishers, executioners, every infantry weapon, and don't forget every hellhound variant, I think the 6" bonus range will pretty much always be useful.

ThePorcupine wrote:
Right now I'm leaning towards Vostroyans. While the range increase doesn't help battlecannons all that much, everything else on a Russ tends to be relatively short ranged. So it will certainly help those bolter/plasma/melta sponsons reach something.

And in the case of punishers, demolishers, executioners, every infantry weapon, and don't forget every hellhound variant, I think the 6" bonus range will pretty much always be useful.

I am talking about the superheavy tanks, though. My regiment is Stormswords, Baneblades, Stormhammers, Banehammers, and Valdor Tank Hunters in various combinations.

Aside from the stormswords, most of their heaviest firepower is already 60" or more.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/09/29/regimental-focus-armageddon-sep29gw-homepage-post-2/

Armageddon is up, seem good for a mechanized guard unit with hit and run tactics.

Still loving the Valhallans overall.

Steel legion seems pretty weak overall.

Their unique order does make it easier to use a transport as ablative wounds, and combined with their doctrine does allow them to sort-of have a 21" rapid fire range (18" plus 3" of embark/disembark range), they sacrifice a lot of damage for that ability to play keepaway.

Additionally, you can't reliably combine it with overcharged plasma guns because of the restrictions on their stratagem. Rerolling 1s on just 1 unit, and only if it just got out of a transport, is incredibly weak for a stratagem that can only be used once per turn. Although, a secondary source of shooting buffs such as Yarrick or Sabre Searchlights could compensate for this shortcoming. Another hitch is if you're trying to use command squad pairs the officer will be stranded (no third order for himself), but you might be able to just hide him on the opposite side of the chimera if his bubble can reach across it.

A standard infantry squad in a chimera doesn't even have much synergy with it because the chimera doesn't benefit from the range bonus. They can fire, get into the chimera, and then fire the lasgun arrays to sort-of get a weaker version of FRFSRF while hiding inside their transport, but the lasgun arrays will only be able to contribute half as much outside of 12".

The vehicle part of their doctrine is kind of lukewarm as well. Any real antitank weapon will ignore it. It does synergize with their order a bit because it will apply to anti-infantry weapons that fire on their transports for lack of better targets, but that's a very narrow application.

The Armageddon one sounds like the DG's Legion trait. Maybe now Plasmavets will be a thing again? At least it's not usable with Scions (who are locked to Militarium Tempestus doctrine).

Best infantry rules for troops.

 ross-128 wrote:
Steel legion seems pretty weak overall.

Their unique order does make it easier to use a transport as ablative wounds, and combined with their doctrine does allow them to sort-of have a 21" rapid fire range (18" plus 3" of embark/disembark range), they sacrifice a lot of damage for that ability to play keepaway.

Additionally, you can't reliably combine it with overcharged plasma guns because of the restrictions on their stratagem. Rerolling 1s on just 1 unit, and only if it just got out of a transport, is incredibly weak for a stratagem that can only be used once per turn. Although, a secondary source of shooting buffs such as Yarrick or Sabre Searchlights could compensate for this shortcoming. Another hitch is if you're trying to use command squad pairs the officer will be stranded (no third order for himself), but you might be able to just hide him on the opposite side of the chimera if his bubble can reach across it.

A standard infantry squad in a chimera doesn't even have much synergy with it because the chimera doesn't benefit from the range bonus. They can fire, get into the chimera, and then fire the lasgun arrays to sort-of get a weaker version of FRFSRF while hiding inside their transport, but the lasgun arrays will only be able to contribute half as much outside of 12".

The vehicle part of their doctrine is kind of lukewarm as well. Any real antitank weapon will ignore it. It does synergize with their order a bit because it will apply to anti-infantry weapons that fire on their transports for lack of better targets, but that's a very narrow application.

This is my assessment as well. I was excited to see their unique stratagem & order but they are both weak. I'm rarely if ever going to be using CP on our stratagem just to do what an order can already do for free.



Mount Up is pointless. The moment your opponent sees you are playing Steel Legion he is going to make any vets in a Chimera his top priority. They will not survive the one round of shooting they are exposed. Furthermore, lets look at the point cost of using this little maneuver that can be easily shut down:

Chimera with cheapest loadout:

91 points

Veteran Squad w/plasma guns:

60 points + 45 = 105

Platoon Commander

20 points

Total = 216 points

Unless chimera's point cost is reduced dramatically, I don't ever see this being a viable option. I can think of a dozen better ways to use 216 points.

 Purifier wrote:

ThePorcupine wrote:
But everything else Valhallan has is so pointless

Only if Commissars stay the way they are. I really hope they don't, and then getting half the deaths from morale might be big.

Don't forget that many armies run snipers specifically to deal with IG in general and commissar+conscripts specifically. Giving conscripts a safety net makes an already questionable tactic almost as inefficient as just killing the conscripts in the first place with commissar up.

For non conscript infantry I'd agree that that catachan or mordain probably works better for normal infantry, as LD8 vs LD7 will usually be as or more effective than halving the casualties unless the unit is reduced to almost nothing already.

Valhallans are interesting. Their trait seems bad to me, and I don't run vehicles. But their send in the next wave power is crazy strong. I've been running a double-brigade with 21 command points. Being able to get a free unit every turn is pretty mental.

I'm impressed how well they've balanced the traits. I genuinely don't know which is best for my foot horde list (at least when taking into account unique orders and stratagems). Probably the strongest competitvely would be to mix (e.g. cadian HWTs, catachan russes and tallarn/vostroyan foot soldiers) but I'm not going to do that as it just feels wrong

Do we know any updated points costs yet? I see commissar benny has posted a squad that implies plasma guns are up to 15pts each. I hope not - it'd be a very heavy nerf... I'd be happier at 10-12 pts per gun.

 DoomMouse wrote:
Valhallans are interesting. Their trait seems bad to me, and I don't run vehicles. But their send in the next wave power is crazy strong. I've been running a double-brigade with 21 command points. Being able to get a free unit every turn is pretty mental.

I'm impressed how well they've balanced the traits. I genuinely don't know which is best for my foot horde list (at least when taking into account unique orders and stratagems). Probably the strongest competitvely would be to mix (e.g. cadian HWTs, catachan russes and tallarn/vostroyan foot soldiers) but I'm not going to do that as it just feels wrong

Do we know any updated points costs yet? I see commissar benny has posted a squad that implies plasma guns are up to 15pts each. I hope not - it'd be a very heavy nerf... I'd be happier at 10-12 pts per gun.

Valhallan trait is pretty much tailor made for conscripts and larger combined infantry squad units. The primary tactic to beat these kinds of units is snipers popping the commissar and then unloading into the unit. With the Valhallan trait you essentially cut the effectiveness of this tactic in half, as even units with no commissar support will be difficult to shift and require more dedicated fire to drop. In addition, it works well with their strategem, which will usually bring the infantry up outside of commissar range if you have to move up. This means you can be more aggressive with where you bring your next wave in, and don't have to telegraph "I'm bringing my conscripts in here!" with where your commissars are set up. This is what makes their trait so strong, although it'll even kick in for small squads occasionally, since it could mean the difference between having a couple of survivors to man a heavy weapon in a 10 man infantry squad compared to a complete rout.

As for plasma, it'd be a fair nerf. You have to think, we have the exact same guns from 7th with 0 downsides, and on top of that we can overcharge whenever we want to double their damage and add to their strength. Yes, plasma was a bit expensive in 7th, but that point cost at this point would be about right, especially since plasma combines with almost every regiment trait. Mordians can snipe characters with it and overwatch better with it, Steel legion can double tap it to 18, Vostroyans double tap it to 15", Cadians get a free reroll of 1's just for standing still, stormtroopers are rumored to gain an additional hit with their weapon everytime they score a 6+ to hit, Tallarn can supposedly turn them into assault weapons, heck even Valhallans can be argued to combine with it since you can be crazy aggressive with plasma vets/command squads and then just respawn them later. Plasma is bar none the most powerful weapon we have as a general tool (as it's supposed to be, that's why it was so friggin expensive) I still don't know what the heck GW was thinking when they made it 7pts. I'd still gladly bring it at 15pts, granted it's not as much of a no brainer but then again weapons shouldn't be that way to begin with.

I do like the fact that the traits are so hard to pick from, it's a good sign of internal balance at least (sorry armageddon). I'm going to be running a mix, I don't really see what's wrong with it, lore wise that's how the IG is supposed to operate, and Space marines have been doing it for years without an ounce of shame The most correct thing would of course to have your vehicles one regiment and your infantry another, but I could see a couple of different infantry or tank units working together as well, such as a unit of mostly veteran catachans doing recon for a Cadian line infantry regiment or a Tallarn Tank regiment being backed up with fire support from a Vostroyan regiment.

I also have a sneaking suspicion commissars are getting some sort of nerf. Having 3 different regiments that we already know are dedicated to messing with morale kind of implies you need it. Not sure what it'll be but I'm sure we'll be in for a rude surprise when the codex leaks start to appear.

Super heavys down by 40 pts.
Grinding advance
Shadowsword gets 3d3 shots.

Looks like Im grounding my fliers.....

Leman russes and super heavy tanks are crazy!

Leeman Russ tanks now Pwr Level 10 each. Sadly Vanquisher still Str 8.

 argonak wrote:

Kdash wrote:
So, everything I’ve seen so far is leading me to wanting to have an army containing detachments from more than 1 regiment (from a competitive point of view).

For example, LR Spearhead with Vostroyan, Baneblade with Catachan and infantry brigade with maybe Mordian.

Simple idea would be that the Russes get the extra range (I’m thinking FW Conqueror and Vanquisher here with the co-axil SB), Baneblade gets all the re-rolls on the damage and the infantry get the bubblewrap with improved overwatch and potentially run around sniping characters with command squads in a Chimera.

100% guarantee this will change as we see even more of the regiments.

Fluffsise that's how the guard fight though. They even combine regiments together after heavy casualties.

Well fluff has space marine squads walking all over a guard batallion, but that wouldnt make for very fair gameplay either.

Go with vahalan for everything is my vote. Maybe mordian for conscripts, but vahallan is good as well. Plus the tank's just work better without degrading statline.s Better than rerolling the shots imo.

 NenkotaMoon wrote:
Leeman Russ tanks now Pwr Level 10 each. Sadly Vanquisher still Str 8.

No changes to the Vanquisher cannon at all?

 Orock wrote:
Well fluff has space marine squads walking all over a guard batallion, but that wouldnt make for very fair gameplay either.

Fluff also has a handful of ragtag poorly equipped guardsmen killing an entire squad of Space Marines, as well as Space Marines being overpowered by single strength two enemies and unable to fight back against them; you should be careful citing marinewank as an objection to people talking about the lore, cause there's also examples of fluff depicting marines as complete and utter idiotic wimps.

Personally I'm digging the cadian regiment rules. Which is great since I've been fluffing my regiment as being resettled Cadians on Nova Cadius.

I wonder if the Vulture & Vendetta will be updated to reflect the improved shooting rules for the Valkyrie.

 argonak wrote:
Personally I'm digging the cadian regiment rules. Which is great since I've been fluffing my regiment as being resettled Cadians on Nova Cadius.

What did the cadians get?

Reroll 1s to hit if they didnt move.

Is it true that plasmaguns are now 15 points on scions?

 Tyr13 wrote:
Reroll 1s to hit if they didnt move.

That's pretty good! Permanent take aim in effect.