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"Shatter their sky!"- Basilisk Crew, Dawn of War 1

Hmm may just be me but I'm liking the Catachan trait much more out of the two revealed so far. Being able to reroll a D6 when firing is essentially a free CP each time.

Both are decent, but I feel like Catachan will help more frequently.

Can't wait to see the Vostroyan trait, from the teaser at the end it may be 18" rapid fire instead of 12" to give them a bit more threat range - represents their ornate gear nicely.

I like the tank rule.

Assuming they don't get more expensive, I think they might actually be viable again.

I still don't think they'll be great, unless Manticores get a price hike or they become close to Manticores in cost.

If we compare Leman Russ to artillery options on a point-for-point efficiency level, Manticores are still better than double-firing Russes. Double-firing Punishers may outshine Wyverns point-for-point, we'll have to see what their final cost is. Double-firing Punishers definitely don't outdo Mortar Teams.


The Catachan re-roll looks like, at least for now, to be the best regimental doctrine. The Mordian one is funny, but not really all that, since it's not going to actually gun down the attacker, just mildly peeve them. While we've only seen two doctrines, I think it's going to be difficult to compete with re-rolls for shot count on Manticores.


Interestingly enough, it looks like the Catachan re-roll will make Basilisks entirely obsolete, if they needed their inferiority to the Manticore further driven in.


As an addendum, Stormtroopers won't benefit from Regimental Doctrines and other abilities, which I think renders the Mordian special order kind of moot. While sniper-conscripts sounds funny, the only thing that can really make good use of that order are Stormtrooper Command Squads, who won't be able to use it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hahaha..... Chenkov is coming back, at least in spirit!

This should be good. I'd guess it's going to be the Valhallan unique strategem. The ability to recycle conscripts, even if they're nerfed, might, just might, prove superior to re-rolling one of each Manticore's dice for some specific lists.


More to the point on the Vostroyans themselves, I'm not impressed. It might pair well with Punisher Cannons, to keep those tanks stationary, but otherwise, I can't see a whole lot of point. It's going to trigger for infantry maybe once per game [on turn 1, if the enemy is footslogging its way to you, in which case you get rapid-fire when you otherwise wouldn't], but rarely even at that because it only actually happens against a single specific and mostly-bad strategy, and its not that good of a benefit even when it happens.

So, are the Vostoyans then able to fire *while* in melee? That is crazy strong if so (charging conscripts or really any troop is even worse if they can). It makes heavy weapon squads far more dangerous if they can survive a charge or consolidation.

Tomorrow:
"we’ll be looking at the Valhallans, the highly anticipated changes to conscripts, and the return of a classic and much-loved rule…"

valdier wrote:
So, are the Vostoyans then able to fire *while* in melee? That is crazy strong if so (charging conscripts or really any troop is even worse if they can). It makes heavy weapon squads far more dangerous if they can survive a charge or consolidation.

Yes, that's the wording of the order. Ignore the weapons type and it can be fired regardless if there is an enemy within 1" (although the restriction is that the closest enemy within an 1" must be the target)

I really hope they bring back some sort of roll for the orders. Never was too fond of them 'just going off' - really liked the narrative behind some orders being misheard over the vox or a total shutdown across the army when chaos hits. Make them like psychic powers, you need to roll a 3+ on a D6 for basic orders and maybe more 'complicated' orders make it a 4+ or 5+ (certain officers/characters have a bonus to this roll)

 NurglesR0T wrote:

valdier wrote:
So, are the Vostoyans then able to fire *while* in melee? That is crazy strong if so (charging conscripts or really any troop is even worse if they can). It makes heavy weapon squads far more dangerous if they can survive a charge or consolidation.

Yes, that's the wording of the order. Ignore the weapons type and it can be fired regardless if there is an enemy within 1" (although the restriction is that the closest enemy within an 1" must be the target)

I really hope they bring back some sort of roll for the orders. Never was too fond of them 'just going off' - really liked the narrative behind some orders being misheard over the vox or a total shutdown across the army when chaos hits. Make them like psychic powers, you need to roll a 3+ on a D6 for basic orders and maybe more 'complicated' orders make it a 4+ or 5+ (certain officers/characters have a bonus to this roll)

Orders just going off would've been fine last edition where the Lasgun couldn't potentially wound everything, infantry was not close to durable without cover, and they were the same cost. Instead, all these buffs happened at once.

 NurglesR0T wrote:

valdier wrote:
So, are the Vostoyans then able to fire *while* in melee? That is crazy strong if so (charging conscripts or really any troop is even worse if they can). It makes heavy weapon squads far more dangerous if they can survive a charge or consolidation.

Yes, that's the wording of the order. Ignore the weapons type and it can be fired regardless if there is an enemy within 1" (although the restriction is that the closest enemy within an 1" must be the target)

I really hope they bring back some sort of roll for the orders. Never was too fond of them 'just going off' - really liked the narrative behind some orders being misheard over the vox or a total shutdown across the army when chaos hits. Make them like psychic powers, you need to roll a 3+ on a D6 for basic orders and maybe more 'complicated' orders make it a 4+ or 5+ (certain officers/characters have a bonus to this roll)

Sure. And everyone else's aura abilities can work on a roll too. Gulliman? Roll. Morty? Roll.

Guard aura abilities are their orders. Nobody else has to put up with this.

 argonak wrote:
Sure. And everyone else's aura abilities can work on a roll too. Gulliman? Roll. Morty? Roll.

Guard aura abilities are their orders. Nobody else has to put up with this.

Apples to oranges, guard have 30 point characters that can use 7+ different abilities depending the situation. That's not really the same as anything else you describe. You can argue it's not balanced, but it already departs in function so heavily from other aura abilities that the "other armies don't do it" justification falls a bit flat.

Well having faced a tank heavy guard list a few weeks back they needed this buff because the index versions were pathetic.

SilverAlien wrote:

 argonak wrote:
Sure. And everyone else's aura abilities can work on a roll too. Gulliman? Roll. Morty? Roll.

Guard aura abilities are their orders. Nobody else has to put up with this.

Apples to oranges, guard have 30 point characters that can use 7+ different abilities depending the situation. That's not really the same as anything else you describe. You can argue it's not balanced, but it already departs in function so heavily from other aura abilities that the "other armies don't do it" justification falls a bit flat.

Commisars don't roll for their ability as far as I know either.

But yeah, compare a 30 point character to the cheapest character that certain armies have available and you'll see the disparaging balance level.

Orders aren't even true auras, they only affect a single target. In this aura-heavy environment, isn't being single-target enough of a restriction?

 ross-128 wrote:
Orders aren't even true auras, they only affect a single target. In this aura-heavy environment, isn't being single-target enough of a restriction?

It would be if the characters weren't 30 points a pop. As is, compare a 65 point minimum Lt./Aspiring Champion who maybe gets just a few squads in their aura and then maybe a couple of upgrades to be not super dead weight at maybe 80 points. That's basically 3 dudes to meet your Brigade tax to get your 9 command points minimum already. So there's that.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
Orders aren't even true auras, they only affect a single target. In this aura-heavy environment, isn't being single-target enough of a restriction?

It would be if the characters weren't 30 points a pop. As is, compare a 65 point minimum Lt./Aspiring Champion who maybe gets just a few squads in their aura and then maybe a couple of upgrades to be not super dead weight at maybe 80 points. That's basically 3 dudes to meet your Brigade tax to get your 9 command points minimum already. So there's that.

Your Aura affects multiple units and does not prevent them from getting other Auras.

When a unit is affected by an Order, they cannot be affected by another Order. It doesn't matter if there are 3 characters granting Orders--each unit can only be targeted by one Order.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
Orders aren't even true auras, they only affect a single target. In this aura-heavy environment, isn't being single-target enough of a restriction?

It would be if the characters weren't 30 points a pop. As is, compare a 65 point minimum Lt./Aspiring Champion who maybe gets just a few squads in their aura and then maybe a couple of upgrades to be not super dead weight at maybe 80 points. That's basically 3 dudes to meet your Brigade tax to get your 9 command points minimum already. So there's that.

I'm pretty sure the reason a commander is 30 points is because he's a dude in a T-shirt armed with a laspistol and a big pair of lungs. Why should IG pay power armor prices when they don't have power armor?

What next, 6 point conscripts, 8 point guardsmen, and 12 point veterans? Because you know if space marines have to pay 12 points for BS3+ then guard should too, never mind the differences in S, T, WS, Sv, Ld, primary weapon, or the extra krak grenade and bolt pistol.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
Orders aren't even true auras, they only affect a single target. In this aura-heavy environment, isn't being single-target enough of a restriction?

It would be if the characters weren't 30 points a pop. As is, compare a 65 point minimum Lt./Aspiring Champion who maybe gets just a few squads in their aura and then maybe a couple of upgrades to be not super dead weight at maybe 80 points. That's basically 3 dudes to meet your Brigade tax to get your 9 command points minimum already. So there's that.

Your Aura affects multiple units and does not prevent them from getting other Auras.

When a unit is affected by an Order, they cannot be affected by another Order. It doesn't matter if there are 3 characters granting Orders--each unit can only be targeted by one Order.

Orders are also stratagem-level. Re-rolling 1s isn't. Plus voxcasters.

Guard - Has order to shoot twice. Costs nothing from their 30 CP. Usable on multiple squads.
C.Marine - Has stratagem to shoot twice. Costs 2 CP from their 6 CP. Usable once per turn.

Two of our orders are literally re-rolling 1s. The rest are either movement, or only apply to S3 AP0 weapons (lasguns and bayonets).

If 8th wasn't saturated with auras and Order knockoffs like Canticles and Acts of Faith, you might have had a point. But as it is now we basically hand out the same buffs as everyone else, except ours are single-target and can't stack while theirs are AoE and stackable.

That, on top of the character handing them out being a flimsy, harmless order-on-a-stick, is already enough to justify costing less than 60 points.

First Rank, fire! Second Rank, fire! - Fire twice... Slaanesh gets it as a strat for 2 CP
Fix Bayonets! - Attack twice... Khorne gets it as a strat for 3 CP
Move! Move! Move! - Warptime, a psyker power, as an order
Get back in the fight! - Stratagem-level bullcrap
Forwards, for the Emperor! - Legion Trait for Black Legion and some others applicable to any Guard legion


No sympathy.

Plus all of these are free and may be done to multiple squads every turn, limited only by number of officers. Not by the CP that guard have oodles of as a result of brigades being too cheap.

 Arkaine wrote:
First Rank, fire! Second Rank, fire! - Fire twice... Slaanesh gets it as a strat for 2 CP
Fix Bayonets! - Attack twice... Khorne gets it as a strat for 3 CP
Move! Move! Move! - Warptime, a psyker power, as an order
Get back in the fight! - Stratagem-level bullcrap
Forwards, for the Emperor! - Legion Trait for Black Legion and some others applicable to any Guard legion


No sympathy.

Going point by point:

1) With only lasguns (you forgot that part)
2) In the Shooting Phase (you forgot that part)
3) Prevents shooting or assaulting afterwards (you forgot that part)
4) Normal army-wide special rule (Ultramarines, or White Scars for charging (the IG can't charge after))
5) Army wide special rule (as you rightly mention...)

Pretty sure getting an army-wide special rule just for having the right color paint on your models is waaaaaaay more points efficient than paying 30 points to grant the same rule to one unit for one turn.

Also, oh no, they can attack twice with a Rapid 1 S3 AP0 weapon, or a 1A S3 AP0 melee profile! Tremble and despair!

Come on, FRFSRF is our strongest order sure, but it's basically just to compensate for the lasgun.

So FRFSRF basically gives guardsmen bolters, wounds-wise vs MEQ.
Get in rapid fire range and guardsmen outshoot marines now.
For 20 pts which you can hide out of LOS and be untargetable.

I'd take that.

 Thairne wrote:
So FRFSRF basically gives guardsmen bolters, wounds-wise vs MEQ.
Get in rapid fire range and guardsmen outshoot marines now.
For 20 pts which you can hide out of LOS and be untargetable.

I'd take that.

Are you willing to trade your captain abilities and relics?

 Thairne wrote:
So FRFSRF basically gives guardsmen bolters, wounds-wise vs MEQ.
Get in rapid fire range and guardsmen outshoot marines now.
For 20 pts which you can hide out of LOS and be untargetable.

I'd take that.

If they're equivalent out of rapid fire range how would they get better inside?

Bolters and lasguns both double their shots at 12". If they were the same, then you double both... they're still the same.

 ChargerIIC wrote:

 Thairne wrote:
So FRFSRF basically gives guardsmen bolters, wounds-wise vs MEQ.
Get in rapid fire range and guardsmen outshoot marines now.
For 20 pts which you can hide out of LOS and be untargetable.

I'd take that.

Are you willing to trade your captain abilities and relics?

Seeing as I'm not using a Captain at all sure. I get everything I need from Lts, Librarians, and Chaplains. If I need the reroll to hit I can use a named character.

Yeah take the Captain I don't care.

ross-128 wrote:

 Thairne wrote:
So FRFSRF basically gives guardsmen bolters, wounds-wise vs MEQ.
Get in rapid fire range and guardsmen outshoot marines now.
For 20 pts which you can hide out of LOS and be untargetable.

I'd take that.

If they're equivalent out of rapid fire range how would they get better inside?

Bolters and lasguns both double their shots at 12". If they were the same, then you double both... they're still the same.

Variance.
10 shots are statistically less reliable than the 30 the guardsmen put out.
10 bolter shots are 1,481 wounds, 0,741 for 5.
30 Lasguns are 1,667 wounds, 0,8333 for 15.

The discrepancy also grows from 0,09 wounds to 0,18 wounds.
So the more shots there are, the more reliably the guardsmen will not only be, but they will gain wounds at an increased rate.

ChargerIIC wrote:

 Thairne wrote:
So FRFSRF basically gives guardsmen bolters, wounds-wise vs MEQ.
Get in rapid fire range and guardsmen outshoot marines now.
For 20 pts which you can hide out of LOS and be untargetable.

I'd take that.

Are you willing to trade your captain abilities and relics?

DA do not have relics yet. Neither do we have a Captain, but a Company Master - which rerolls only 1's to hit within 6", compared to the orders at 12" which add options to guard at way way cheaper a cost.

 Thairne wrote:

ross-128 wrote:

 Thairne wrote:
So FRFSRF basically gives guardsmen bolters, wounds-wise vs MEQ.
Get in rapid fire range and guardsmen outshoot marines now.
For 20 pts which you can hide out of LOS and be untargetable.

I'd take that.

If they're equivalent out of rapid fire range how would they get better inside?

Bolters and lasguns both double their shots at 12". If they were the same, then you double both... they're still the same.

Variance.
10 shots are statistically less reliable than the 30 the guardsmen put out.
10 bolter shots are 1,481 wounds, 0,741 for 5.
30 Lasguns are 1,667 wounds, 0,8333 for 15.

The discrepancy also grows from 0,09 wounds to 0,18 wounds.
So the more shots there are, the more reliably the guardsmen will not only be, but they will gain wounds at an increased rate.

ChargerIIC wrote:

 Thairne wrote:
So FRFSRF basically gives guardsmen bolters, wounds-wise vs MEQ.
Get in rapid fire range and guardsmen outshoot marines now.
For 20 pts which you can hide out of LOS and be untargetable.

I'd take that.

Are you willing to trade your captain abilities and relics?

DA do not have relics yet. Neither do we have a Captain, but a Company Master - which rerolls only 1's to hit within 6", compared to the orders at 12" which add options to guard at way way cheaper a cost.

So you're saying that horde models should always be strictly worse point-for-point, because they can make up for it by being *reliably* worse?

I suppose I can see why that would be an appealing argument to someone who plays elite models. Mainly because it gives them a way to rationalize why they deserve to be overpowered, but I hope you can also understand why it's not so appealing to a horde player who is being told he deserves to be underpowered just because he can be consistently underpowered.

Do you have any idea on what reliablity is?
Reliability is why single shot weapons like meltas without rerolls are terrible.
More dice -> more constitent results all the while having more total wounds at which a single bad roll on your save does not cost you a gakload of points.

Reliablity is king in weight of dice.

Also I'm not saying what you suppose I do.
Guard are more effective per point against MEQ.
They also have more dice and are less reliant on good rolls.
Guard are not underpowered, they are stronger than marines.

 Arkaine wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
Orders aren't even true auras, they only affect a single target. In this aura-heavy environment, isn't being single-target enough of a restriction?

It would be if the characters weren't 30 points a pop. As is, compare a 65 point minimum Lt./Aspiring Champion who maybe gets just a few squads in their aura and then maybe a couple of upgrades to be not super dead weight at maybe 80 points. That's basically 3 dudes to meet your Brigade tax to get your 9 command points minimum already. So there's that.

Your Aura affects multiple units and does not prevent them from getting other Auras.

When a unit is affected by an Order, they cannot be affected by another Order. It doesn't matter if there are 3 characters granting Orders--each unit can only be targeted by one Order.

Orders are also stratagem-level. Re-rolling 1s isn't. Plus voxcasters.

Vox-Casters are on a limited number of units. Infantry Squads, Command Squads, Veterans, Scions. The benefit only applies to those units and Officers issuing Orders to them.

Guard - Has order to shoot twice. Costs nothing from their 30 CP. Usable on multiple squads.
C.Marine - Has stratagem to shoot twice. Costs 2 CP from their 6 CP. Usable once per turn.

Orders require you to be within a certain range of the issuing Officer, Stratagems don't.

 Thairne wrote:
Do you have any idea on what reliablity is?
Reliability is why single shot weapons like meltas without rerolls are terrible.
More dice -> more constitent results all the while having more total wounds at which a single bad roll on your save does not cost you a gakload of points.

Reliablity is king in weight of dice.

Also I'm not saying what you suppose I do.
Guard are more effective per point against MEQ.
They also have more dice and are less reliant on good rolls.
Guard are not underpowered, they are stronger than marines.

They're not underpowered right now, but you are talking like them not being underpowered is a bad thing. It sounds like you're saying that they need to be made underpowered.

Thing is, a swingy weapon or unit can roll both below and above average. It may be hard for a consistent model to roll below average, but it's also hard for it to roll above. So why should the consistent model be given a lower average?

When they're equal (or close enough), it can go either way. The guardsmen will probably mostly roll about average, but if the space marine rolls well on his turn he wins, if he rolls poorly he loses, if he rolls about average it's a draw. It's up to the player to create a situation that tilts the fight in their favor.

If you "fix" the guardsmen by making them strictly worse, offering the fig leaf of "but you're reliably bad so being bad is okay", then the default outcome will be that the space marine wins automatically. If he rolls average he wins, if he rolls well he wins, if he rolls poorly it's a draw unless he rolls badly enough to cover the gap.

Again, I understand why that "fix" would be appealing to the space marine player and why he would offer the defense of "but I can get screwed by a bad roll", but I really do hope you can see why it's not appealing to a guard player. Besides "nobody wants to get nerfed", nobody wants to go into a fight where the default assumption is they lose, and they have to pray that their opponent rolls badly.

And that's before even looking at the question of if the Guard couldn't match marines in shooting, what are they supposed to do, engage the marines in melee? They may have better chances in melee than the Tau, but that's not saying much. I would hope the shooty army has an edge in shooting, they wouldn't be much without it!

Meanwhile on the Marines' side, they actually are pretty strong in melee. Perhaps they should get in there and punch the shooty army, instead of complaining that they're hard to out-shoot.

 ross-128 wrote:
Orders aren't even true auras, they only affect a single target. In this aura-heavy environment, isn't being single-target enough of a restriction?

*faint necron whimpering in the distance*

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
Orders aren't even true auras, they only affect a single target. In this aura-heavy environment, isn't being single-target enough of a restriction?

*faint necron whimpering in the distance*

I was gonna point that out. Thanks for doing it instead though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ross-128 wrote:

 Thairne wrote:
Do you have any idea on what reliablity is?
Reliability is why single shot weapons like meltas without rerolls are terrible.
More dice -> more constitent results all the while having more total wounds at which a single bad roll on your save does not cost you a gakload of points.

Reliablity is king in weight of dice.

Also I'm not saying what you suppose I do.
Guard are more effective per point against MEQ.
They also have more dice and are less reliant on good rolls.
Guard are not underpowered, they are stronger than marines.

They're not underpowered right now, but you are talking like them not being underpowered is a bad thing. It sounds like you're saying that they need to be made underpowered.

Thing is, a swingy weapon or unit can roll both below and above average. It may be hard for a consistent model to roll below average, but it's also hard for it to roll above. So why should the consistent model be given a lower average?

When they're equal (or close enough), it can go either way. The guardsmen will probably mostly roll about average, but if the space marine rolls well on his turn he wins, if he rolls poorly he loses, if he rolls about average it's a draw. It's up to the player to create a situation that tilts the fight in their favor.

If you "fix" the guardsmen by making them strictly worse, offering the fig leaf of "but you're reliably bad so being bad is okay", then the default outcome will be that the space marine wins automatically. If he rolls average he wins, if he rolls well he wins, if he rolls poorly it's a draw unless he rolls badly enough to cover the gap.

Again, I understand why that "fix" would be appealing to the space marine player and why he would offer the defense of "but I can get screwed by a bad roll", but I really do hope you can see why it's not appealing to a guard player. Besides "nobody wants to get nerfed", nobody wants to go into a fight where the default assumption is they lose, and they have to pray that their opponent rolls badly.

And that's before even looking at the question of if the Guard couldn't match marines in shooting, what are they supposed to do, engage the marines in melee? They may have better chances in melee than the Tau, but that's not saying much. I would hope the shooty army has an edge in shooting, they wouldn't be much without it!

Meanwhile on the Marines' side, they actually are pretty strong in melee. Perhaps they should get in there and punch the shooty army, instead of complaining that they're hard to out-shoot.

Actually I'm telling what's up as a Skitarii and Necrons player too. Wanna tell me I'm just overreacting too?