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Assaulting is already a tricky proposition, what with withdrawal, fly keyword shenanigans, Ultramarine tactics, nerfed cover rules and general gunnyness in this edition.

But against this stands some truly awesome assault units - with Khorn Beserkers leading the charge. Sure, you might have trouble keeping your enemy in melee, but if you only need one round of melee to reap the Sufficiently Horrifying Harvest of Skulls then hey, it's all good.

But now we see that Mordian tactics can increase overwatch to 5&6, so with FRFSRF, ten lasgunners will be putting out roughly 13 hits on overwatch. That's pretty tasty. Add to that the "'Defensive Gunners' 5&6 overwatch LR Punisher, that's double-tapping on its turn", and we're seeing some pretty heavy hitters take the stage this codex, geared specifically to splatter horde/assault units. Finally, those key characters that were enabling your massed infantry - Commissars, officers, acolytes, etc? They're now open to being lit up by Plasma Vets, who can now target Characters with rapid fire weapons.

All in all, this is a strong indicator of the way GW want the meta to evolve, wouldn't you say? The dearth of transports in games, with a few notable exceptions, may have been a worry for them, and they're trying to force the bawkses back onto the menu. What do you think? Are Mordians a new gatekeeper army, that will have to be planned for at listbuilding stage?

I'm not sure what their vision is for transports. Currently I see no reason to ever take them as in most cases they are way more expensive than the occupants they are meant to carry & have little to no damage output. Chimeras for example cost 89+ points bare minimum if I am not mistaken (codex not with me) and infantry squads cost 40 pts. Really the only things worth taking in them are vets/Ogryn/Bullgryn & even then its not really worth it after the -1BS, no rear fire port, no command vehicle, no amphibious rule nerfs.

Orks & many other armies are in the same boat. Transports are way way too expensive.

No LR is "double-tapping on its turn". Grinding Advance only works in the Shooting Phase, not in overwatch. Let's clear that up immediately.

grouchoben wrote:
Assaulting is already a tricky proposition, what with withdrawal, fly keyword shenanigans, Ultramarine tactics, nerfed cover rules and general gunnyness in this edition.

But against this stands some truly awesome assault units - with Khorn Beserkers leading the charge. Sure, you might have trouble keeping your enemy in melee, but if you only need one round of melee to reap the Sufficiently Horrifying Harvest of Skulls then hey, it's all good.

But now we see that Mordian tactics can increase overwatch to 5&6, so with FRFSRF, ten lasgunners will be putting out roughly 13 hits on overwatch. That's pretty tasty. Add to that the "'Defensive Gunners' 5&6 overwatch LR Punisher, that's double-tapping on its turn", and we're seeing some pretty heavy hitters take the stage this codex, geared specifically to splatter horde/assault units. Finally, those key characters that were enabling your massed infantry - Commissars, officers, acolytes, etc? They're now open to being lit up by Plasma Vets, who can now target Characters with rapid fire weapons.

All in all, this is a strong indicator of the way GW want the meta to evolve, wouldn't you say? The dearth of transports in games, with a few notable exceptions, may have been a worry for them, and they're trying to force the bawkses back onto the menu. What do you think? Are Mordians a new gatekeeper army, that will have to be planned for at listbuilding stage?

FRFSRF doesn't work on overwatch.

'FRFSRF doesn't work on overwatch. ' - Doesn't it? I didn't realise, thanks. My little AM army is Krieg, so it's never really come up much for me, in my limited experience!

Weazel, apologies if I wasn't clear - The LR is indeed double tapping on its turn, rather than on yours. I never claimed it would activate on overwatch. It will, however, mean the punisher sees more table time, causing more pressure on footslogging armies.

The point stands, I hope, that the AM codex is going to be introducing greater risks for footslogging infantry. Is the overwatch-eating, fast-moving, tougher Transport the intended beneficary of this?

I'm not really sure which transports and assault units you have in mind. Like, nobody was walking Berzerkers up the field as-is -- they're not going to hit combat until at least turn 3 and they'll get shot to pieces in turn 2. Tyranids lack transports or were already using a Trygon to deliver things. Dark Eldar were already putting everything in transports.

It's really only Orks that are trying to march a bunch of assault dudes across the table and which have the option to put things in transports instead.

It's not like all AM are getting super overwatch all the time, only Mordians. And i expect other doctrines to be just better frankly. Catachan one already is for Tanks, no reason to have better overwatch if you've already shot them to death

grouchoben wrote:

All in all, this is a strong indicator of the way GW want the meta to evolve, wouldn't you say? The dearth of transports in games, with a few notable exceptions, may have been a worry for them, and they're trying to force the bawkses back onto the menu. What do you think? Are Mordians a new gatekeeper army, that will have to be planned for at listbuilding stage?

So, because one regiment out of many gets an overwatch buff they're trying to force a meta change? No. They don't give a gak about that. Anyone wishing to charge a Repulsor near rerolls to hit already knows what happens.

Honestly, I feel like the Overwatch buff is not that big a deal. It's lasguns, it's going to mean maybe one extra wound against power armor. This might be necessary to balance the game, it's not like they are going to do much against Berzerkers.

Transports are already important, not that everyone uses them, but those of us who do tend to enjoy them. If GW is trying to make a change to the meta with AM, it would be to increase the number of infantry on the table.

But hopefully not with more conscripts. I hope they nerf those guys into complete uselessness.

 Commissar Benny wrote:
I'm not sure what their vision is for transports. Currently I see no reason to ever take them as in most cases they are way more expensive than the occupants they are meant to carry & have little to no damage output. Chimeras for example cost 89+ points bare minimum if I am not mistaken (codex not with me) and infantry squads cost 40 pts. Really the only things worth taking in them are vets/Ogryn/Bullgryn & even then its not really worth it after the -1BS, no rear fire port, no command vehicle, no amphibious rule nerfs.

Orks & many other armies are in the same boat. Transports are way way too expensive.

Apples to oranges. AM don't really need them in match play, but in narrative play the planet you are on may be toxic or deadlier than usual, in which case your guys maybe want to fight in a tank?

Other armies need/want them at all times for different reasons.

As for the OP question, mobile guard armies are a thing, but they are outclassed by Scions at the moment. So something needs to be done to fix that.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Honestly, I feel like the Overwatch buff is not that big a deal. It's lasguns, it's going to mean maybe one extra wound against power armor. This might be necessary to balance the game, it's not like they are going to do much against Berzerkers.

Transports are already important, not that everyone uses them, but those of us who do tend to enjoy them. If GW is trying to make a change to the meta with AM, it would be to increase the number of infantry on the table.

But hopefully not with more conscripts. I hope they nerf those guys into complete uselessness.

Thanks for proving someones point, took a pic for future references.

I'm not sure what you mean by "death of transports".


It seems to me that it's the exception rather than the rule that armies don't want them, notably the Orks, Necrons, and Imperial Guard.

In the former two cases, it's because their squads are large and their transports are small.


Tau and Tyranids are sort of in there, because the former, at least around here, has armies that just don't have anyone to ride in transports, and the Tyranids use Trygons, which aren't transport but serve the same purpose.



I run fully mechanized with my Sisters, and if I had more tanks for the Space Wolves I'd be running fully mech for them. The only SM armies I see that aren't running a load of transports are Primaris armies, because the Primaris don't fit in any transport. Eldar armies I see are also fully mounted, and I think that covers just about everyone.


In short, I think the supposed lack of transports appearing on the battlefield is actually a result of desirable units not having transports they fit in more than transports being bad.

grouchoben wrote:
Assaulting is already a tricky proposition, what with withdrawal, fly keyword shenanigans, Ultramarine tactics, nerfed cover rules and general gunnyness in this edition.

But against this stands some truly awesome assault units - with Khorn Beserkers leading the charge. Sure, you might have trouble keeping your enemy in melee, but if you only need one round of melee to reap the Sufficiently Horrifying Harvest of Skulls then hey, it's all good.

But now we see that Mordian tactics can increase overwatch to 5&6, so with FRFSRF, ten lasgunners will be putting out roughly 13 hits on overwatch. That's pretty tasty. Add to that the "'Defensive Gunners' 5&6 overwatch LR Punisher, that's double-tapping on its turn", and we're seeing some pretty heavy hitters take the stage this codex, geared specifically to splatter horde/assault units. Finally, those key characters that were enabling your massed infantry - Commissars, officers, acolytes, etc? They're now open to being lit up by Plasma Vets, who can now target Characters with rapid fire weapons.

All in all, this is a strong indicator of the way GW want the meta to evolve, wouldn't you say? The dearth of transports in games, with a few notable exceptions, may have been a worry for them, and they're trying to force the bawkses back onto the menu. What do you think? Are Mordians a new gatekeeper army, that will have to be planned for at listbuilding stage?

FWIW, FRFSRF also only works in your shooting phase for the phase, so there's no way for mordians to have FRFSRF in overwatch.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:


because the Primaris don't fit in any transport.

That seems so unfair. They should have a special rule that lets them go in Rhinos, but also makes them open topped, because all the Primaris Marines have to stick their heads up through the roof like Dino from the Flintstones

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:


In short, I think the supposed lack of transports appearing on the battlefield is actually a result of desirable units not having transports they fit in more than transports being bad.

I agree. I use transports in my Dark Eldar quite a bit (5) and my Sisters of Battle are also fully mechanized (as they have had to be since 6th Edition came out).

Unit choices are CHOICES with corresponding realities. Some armies just need their armor more. Some need it less. The Devilfish for example is actually decent. It's just not as necessary as it once was. but its no problem to come up with a list that utilizes a Devilfish "overload". It just isn't as scary as what i faced recently, which was 11 Command Suits and some fire Warriors. It was a boring list, but its more effective than Devilfish spam would be and so more people will do it.

AnFéasógMór wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:


because the Primaris don't fit in any transport.

That seems so unfair. They should have a special rule that lets them go in Rhinos, but also makes them open topped, because all the Primaris Marines have to stick their heads up through the roof like Dino from the Flintstones

My personal headcanon is that every Repulsor should be required to be painted with a "You must be This Tall to ride this ride" sign painted on next to the door.

"Cmon, guys, lemme in, there's a lot of live fire going on out here."

"no! You see the sign, no stinky stumpies allowed!"

"Awww, don't be such a bully, Chad...."

"You little wimp! Don't make me come out there again for more noogies!"

Rubrics are too slow not to run in a transport. I think it's largely just a problem with Guard having too much firepower from too far away so they don't actually have to move anywhere to win.

Marines, Eldar and Dark Eldar all have excellent Transports and it is more a case why would you NOT take them?

Transports are also valuable defense against alpha-strikes. Put you valuable units in metal bawkses and suddenly those Grav-chuting Scions have to chew through 10 S7 wounds behind a 3= save to get to the squishy goodness inside.

 Karhedron wrote:
Marines, Eldar and Dark Eldar all have excellent Transports and it is more a case why would you NOT take them?

Transports are also valuable defense against alpha-strikes. Put you valuable units in metal bawkses and suddenly those Grav-chuting Scions have to chew through 10 S7 wounds behind a 3= save to get to the squishy goodness inside.

The good marine transports are good for shooting, not for transportation. Most the time, any unit that needs a transport and needs to get close is worse per points when factoring the cost of a transport to something else that doesn't need one.

The only good transports are ones that are essentially tanks, with the transport capacity being a secondary concern. The best alpha strike protection isn't a100 point metal box, it's a cheap squad that costs less than that, that can force your opponent to deep strike further back. A guardsmen blob takes one wound from a lascannon, your expensive transport can get bracketed in one shot and lose all value as a transport when the boy's inside can walk farther than the transport can.

I love guessing the intent of people I've never met. It's actually my favorite passtime. Are the writers trying to force transports into the meta with the AM codex? Absolutely, and those "domestic disaster training" exercises the army was doing a couple years back was actually Obama's attempt to put America under martial law and make himself the Forever King.

Dionysodorus wrote:
Like, nobody was walking Berzerkers up the field as-is -- they're not going to hit combat until at least turn 3 and they'll get shot to pieces in turn 2.

Not if they're Alpha Legion

One thing about Transports, Assaulting, and Overwatch is that transports themselves are great at soaking up overwatch. If I'm about to charge a Mordian squad of guardsmen hitting me on 5's, I'm darn sure to send in my Rhino first. That way, my assault unit that was embarked before can charge afterwards, free of danger.

I think half the problem is people playing to table each other rather than objectives.

 argonak wrote:
I think half the problem is people playing to table each other rather than objectives.

How is that a problem. Tabling people is always one of your objectives. Lol. In the nicest possible well, but still its an objective every game.