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"Conscripts have seen some changes in the new Astra Militarum codex, designed to make them fit their background more appropriately. If you’ve got loads of these guys on hand, don’t worry! They’re still a very handy unit (particularly in the Valhallan army). Firstly, Conscripts can only be taken in units of 20-30, reducing the effectiveness of stacking orders on a block of 50. Secondly, orders only work on Conscripts on a 4+, and, should they fail, no more orders will work on the unit for the rest of the turn.

Conscripts are still very useful, and in a Valhallan army, we’d recommend using yours to hold enemy units in place before using Fire On My Command, the new Valhallan Order, to shoot into the combat. In this way, you can neutralise an enemy unit’s shooting without any loss of effectiveness for your own!"

Commissars still work it looks like, order on a 4+ is interesting.

Well a block of 20-30 is a lot easier to delete than a block of 50, even if you have to do it one bullet at a time.

And at least now they won't BLAM a warlord titan out of existence simply because they got ordered.

Still though I feel like the 4+ should have been applied to the commissar too.

Unit size nerf was the best way to deal whit it but personly i would like to see it reduced to max 20.

Commisar orders on a 4+ realy wont have any effect whit all the rerolls this game offers or way around the loophole that powergamers will eventualy find, so that situation wont change.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Well a block of 20-30 is a lot easier to delete than a block of 50, even if you have to do it one bullet at a time.

And at least now they won't BLAM a warlord titan out of existence simply because they got ordered.

Still though I feel like the 4+ should have been applied to the commissar too.

With that next wave stratagem conscripts will be interesting for Valhallans at least. This size nerf and orders on a 4+ seems pretty good for a change imo.

This doesn't really fix them at all, if it's the only change. The reduced unit size is ok, I suppose, but then you just get two units instead and cluster them around the Commissar.

The problem was always the Commissar, so I guess we'll see if he is changed at all. My guess is no.

 Purifier wrote:
This doesn't really fix them at all, if it's the only change. The reduced unit size is ok, I suppose, but then you just get two units instead and cluster them around the Commissar.

The problem was always the Commissar, so I guess we'll see if he is changed at all. My guess is no.

They're still as hard to remove as before, but they pose less of a threat.
I think the intention is to let them be cheap effective screening units, which can't do much more.

Not too bad overall, I would have preferred to only see one of those rather than both, but at least they didn't go with any of the insane mega-nerfs some people have been suggesting.

Those stratagems in the preview though. SITNW works on ANY (non-character, not-combined) infantry unit? Awesome. Which also, of course, means combined squads is confirmed as a stratagem!

Crush Them is a hilarious stratagem too. Use that on a Baneblade, 9 attacks hitting on 2+ with good S and AP. Crunch.

fresus wrote:

 Purifier wrote:
This doesn't really fix them at all, if it's the only change. The reduced unit size is ok, I suppose, but then you just get two units instead and cluster them around the Commissar.

The problem was always the Commissar, so I guess we'll see if he is changed at all. My guess is no.

They're still as hard to remove as before, but they pose less of a threat.
I think the intention is to let them be cheap effective screening units, which can't do much more.

Conscripts points cost may have also gone up too, but we won't know until the codex is out.

It's something, I suppose. Still, 2 groups of 25 v 1 group of 50 has more or less the same effect, especially if you can still spam commissars and cheap commanders.

Hell, last game I played against IG they had like 12 orders they could issue a turn, so having one or two more squads to order isn't really an issue.

As long as commisars provide the entire army with more-or-less immunity to morale, IG massed infantry is still going to be a problem, unless you happen to have tanks that get ~50 shots a turn (like guard do now).

This conscript change is laughable and won't change anything

Well, it is worth pointing out that in terms of defense, Brimstone horrors in 2 30-blobs backed up by the changeling is a far more effective defensive screen than conscripts (2 wounds apiece, 4++, -1 to hit)

Given that those aren't generally seen dominating competitive play, it would be reasonable to suspect that the real issue with conscripts was the fact that you could give them easy access to orders and rerolls to give them many times the offensive power of the brimstones. This is a nerf to their offensive reliability, which is right where they should have been hit.

I'm fine with conscripts being a viable screen choice for an AM army in competitive play. What is more problematic is them being just the best troop choice taken in a soup list alongside Guilliman with super-reliable orders from a 30 point character. Post-codex, conscripts taken like that will have greatly reduced reliability, and no access to the doctrines or unique orders unless they're in their own detachment, which defeats one of their purposes - i.e. allowing an imperial player to not have to take less efficient troop choices for their CPs.

I'm also fine with all these melee-focused stratagems and orders being introduced here. Allowing the Gunline army to have something to do to respond to an assault means they won't be just playing in the shooting phase. Ultimately, even if they need some adjustments to the power levels of their shooting elements, that will put them in a spot where they won't encounter the problem they did in 7th - not doing enough damage before melee happened because after that they'll just be useless.

I really hope we get similar stratagems and doctrines for Tau as well. A shooting army that can't do ANYTHING in melee will either have enough firepower to table an opponent before they get there (7th ed Tau) and they'll be unbeatable or they won't (7th ed Guard) and they'll be useless. Stratagems are a great way to close that gap.

2 groups of 25 is not the same as 1 group of 50, affects the logistics chain further down the line. You end up needing more officers (they ain't free you know), more commissars (also not free) and have to execute twice as many models.

I'd say it's easily enough nerfing, unless the goal is annihilation rather than balance.

Personally I've always felt that morale was a far bigger issue then the unit size or orders, but whatevs. We'll see how this shakes out.

It's also half the Overwatch if you need to give them a proper kicking. That's nothing to be sniffed at.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
It's something, I suppose. Still, 2 groups of 25 v 1 group of 50 has more or less the same effect, especially if you can still spam commissars and cheap commanders.

Hell, last game I played against IG they had like 12 orders they could issue a turn, so having one or two more squads to order isn't really an issue.

As long as commisars provide the entire army with more-or-less immunity to morale, IG massed infantry is still going to be a problem, unless you happen to have tanks that get ~50 shots a turn (like guard do now).

A tank like a Dakka repulsor with rerolls? I'm gonna be relying on those.

the_scotsman wrote:
Well, it is worth pointing out that in terms of defense, Brimstone horrors in 2 30-blobs backed up by the changeling is a far more effective defensive screen than conscripts (2 wounds apiece, 4++, -1 to hit)

Horrors are kept in check by morale. You know, the way horde units are supposed to work.

To properly balance the unit it was always going to be one of the two major aspects that were going to get nerfed - Orders efficiency and efficacy or morale synergy with Commissars.

This way they pretty heftily reduce the attractiveness of Conscripts and Orders:
50% chance before re-rolls to lose/waste the order on a Conscript unit - at 20pts an order, will become more attractive to use them elsewhere.
Reduced unit size reduces order efficiency and efficacy - with the 'standard' favorite unit-size per-Codex being 40-man Conscript Squads to get the same effect you'll either see more separate Conscript squads or more Orders being expended to get the same effect.

Also provides a sideline nerf to their synergy with Commissars:
Every morale check will cause 1 Conscript to get blapped for every unit of 20-30 - not every unit of 50. Means four units of 30 Conscripts rather than three units of 40 - to use the last GT winner's list as a comparator.

Not a huge change morale-wise, but to nerf all of it would have rendered Conscripts completely pointless. And as much as people like to equate never seeing a formerly 'OP' unit used ever again post-nerf as 'balance', it is good to see GW is ignoring that perspective.

I'll quote myself from the IG news and rumors thread.

And, something to think about the Conscripts nerfs. We hare accustomed to the GW swinging balance-bat. When the only balancing change you do is one every 4-5 years, you go big or go home. Thats why many times, very good units become unplayable because they over-nerfed them.

With this new FAQ's, living document, etc... mentality, I'm glad to see that GW is trying a more humble approach. They want to balance Conscripts, not make them totally useless. So even if those changes don't are enough to make them balanced and they are still more powerfull than they should, I think GW will eventually with Chapter Approved, FAQ's, etc... balance them with small nerfs-buffs.

If the only change is orders and squad size, that doesn't do enough, but whatever. I mean people weren't using conscripts because they did damage. That was just icing on an already fantastic cake.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
It's something, I suppose. Still, 2 groups of 25 v 1 group of 50 has more or less the same effect, especially if you can still spam commissars and cheap commanders.

Hell, last game I played against IG they had like 12 orders they could issue a turn, so having one or two more squads to order isn't really an issue.

As long as commisars provide the entire army with more-or-less immunity to morale, IG massed infantry is still going to be a problem, unless you happen to have tanks that get ~50 shots a turn (like guard do now).

The big difference is the orders. You only have so many orders you can give in a turn and giving something like 'First Rank Second Rank' on a blob of 50 is much more devastating than on a blob of 30. If you want to also give it to another blob of 30, that's another order, and there's a 50/50 chance that it'll fail on conscripts each time they're ordered.

It's a step in the right direction. They won't be made totally useless, at least, but this is a noticeable nerf.

 Marmatag wrote:
If the only change is orders and squad size, that doesn't do enough, but whatever. I mean people weren't using conscripts because they did damage. That was just icing on an already fantastic cake.

For me the bigger problem of Conscripts wheren't conscripts. It was how they where used to protect Guilliman+Parking Lot, or a Plasma Scion spam. Balance those two things, and then conscripts aren't that good, because they are protecting a balanced force, not making inmortal a totally OP force.

the_scotsman wrote:
Well, it is worth pointing out that in terms of defense, Brimstone horrors in 2 30-blobs backed up by the changeling is a far more effective defensive screen than conscripts (2 wounds apiece, 4++, -1 to hit)

Brimstones only have 1 wound (they used to have 2 in 7th, but in 8th they only have 1).

2 30 blob Brimstones + Changeling is also more expensive than 2x 30 Conscripts and a Commissar, and has less of a damage output (as marginal of a point that is for a screening unit).

I mean, it's pretty obvious that Ld4 is the kind of stat where if you actually have to roll against it, you know you're about to lose. You're obviously supposed to cover it up with a commissar, and as an opponent you're obviously supposed to neutralize the commissar to expose it.

Asking for the commissar to be removed from the equation is basically asking for your win condition to be handed to you on a silver platter.

'tis why many of the more sane people (such as myself) have looked at it as the Commissar scaling worse on larger units, rather than always forcing only 1 model to die.

If a Conscript squad was able to haemorrhage 5 models from an attack that wiped out 1/3 of the squad, I feel most would be somewhat satisfied.

Also I really wouldn't call having the ability to murder conscripts at least somewhat efficiently a 'win handed on a silver platter'...

You're creating a false dilemma. It doesn't have to be "commissar works to the full capacity it does now" or "remove the commissar altogether".

Summary Execution being changed from "remove 1 model, ignore all other losses" to "roll a d6, reduce the models lost by the result" would have made conscripts susceptible to morale in a fair manner while still giving commissars a function.

 Galas wrote:


And, something to think about the Conscripts nerfs. We hare accustomed to the GW swinging balance-bat. When the only balancing change you do is one every 4-5 years, you go big or go home. Thats why many times, very good units become unplayable because they over-nerfed them.

I agree on this. I was expecting to see them unplayable.

I am a bit worried for this codex, still. And mind it I have A LOT of guard on the other side of the ocean, if needed.

Also, I have the feeling that the "fix" to the russes (less OP than it seems IMHO) is the demonstration that convert 5" templates to d6 shots was conceptually wrong, especially because of the BS adjustment.
Same with the rules that allow to move and do not take the -1 to hit (like the DG hellbrute).
Certain units needed this regardless and the removal of SOME general rule seems detrimental and put the game in the condition of needing specific rules as a fix for many, many units.

Competitive lists were already running 30-man conscripts units. This nerf doesn't solve the problem, unless they change morale or commisar execution.

We haven't seen the Commisar rules yet.

GhostRecon wrote:


Also provides a sideline nerf to their synergy with Commissars:
Every morale check will cause 1 Conscript to get blapped for every unit of 20-30 - not every unit of 50. Means four units of 30 Conscripts rather than three units of 40 - to use the last GT winner's list as a comparator.

So after receiving a huge and devastating wave of attacks, the conscripts would lose 12 points of models instead of 9 points of models to morale. Pretty much a totally irrelevant change, and still makes conscripts way tougher to get rid of than they should be. Commissar ability should be changed to D6 models being shot in the face - way more realistic and fluffy, while still being better than not having the commissar at all. Especially as it still lets you reroll the dice, so you can burn CP's to drop the average losses (in this example) from 12 down to like 8.

Still only a minor nerf, and still makes them better than similar units like brims, but doesn't keep them indestructable.

Anyway, doesn't matter now as it seems unlikely that they've made any such change, will just have to see how the new unit plays out. I suspect they'll continue being used exactly the same as before, but with some shuffling of detachment to maximise CPs and traits/doctrines.

I think people would probably be happier and healthier if we all just waited like three days, when we'll have pretty much all of the actual rules, to start fighting about whether GW did enough about Conscripts.