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fresus wrote:
They're still as hard to remove as before, but they pose less of a threat.
I think the intention is to let them be cheap effective screening units, which can't do much more.

At 4 ppm model they'd be the second most effective screening unit in the game, and even with these nerfs would have way better offensive potential than the best screening unit (brimstones).

The unit size reduction already reduces the scaling, commissars are now only about half as effective. Changing them to a d6 would make them useless for anything other than conscripts, and would make conscripts with a commissar potentially less durable than unsupported guardsmen.

And of course, unsupported conscripts are already less durable than Veterans, who aren't exactly considered a screening unit in the first place.

 ross-128 wrote:
The unit size reduction already reduces the scaling, commissars are now only about half as effective. Changing them to a d6 would make them useless for anything other than conscripts, and would make conscripts with a commissar potentially less durable than unsupported guardsmen.

And of course, unsupported conscripts are already less durable than Veterans, who aren't exactly considered a screening unit in the first place.

The size reduction does not effect the way the scale with commissars, not notably. You just alter the way you rank the conscripts slightly. It's barely anything. It helps with orders but those weren't the main issue.

When you consider how much the Valhallan's trait benefits conscripts who have their commissar sniped, which is one of the only effective ways to deal with the unit, the change becomes even more trivial by comparison. Conscripts may actually be stronger post codex if these are their only changes.

Basically in 3 days I learn if i need to buy 60 or 90 conscripts, and a commissar. Based on this change these guys are still absolutely mandatory for every single Imperium army.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
You're creating a false dilemma. It doesn't have to be "commissar works to the full capacity it does now" or "remove the commissar altogether".

Summary Execution being changed from "remove 1 model, ignore all other losses" to "roll a d6, reduce the models lost by the result" would have made conscripts susceptible to morale in a fair manner while still giving commissars a function.

Exactly. My idea was "kill one model, unit now has Ld10 for the morale check" but the idea is the same. We're not saying Commissars need to be removed, but their effectiveness is INSANELY over the top when he does basically the same as a 2CP stratagem, for everyone within his range. Can you really not see how over the top that is? ~2CP worth of effectiveness every round out of a super cheap character. (I say 2CP but he can obviously happen to not be close to a unit that's going down or he can be close enough to two separate groups and be worth 4CP in a single round. But even when he does nothing for a round, he's still asserting pressure as to where it makes sense to put your bullets.)

You should try shooting the conscripts...a lot. I've heard that reduces their strength. Or maybe changing the conscripts from troops to elites might be the better nerf here. Oh the irony

Niiru wrote:

GhostRecon wrote:


Also provides a sideline nerf to their synergy with Commissars:
Every morale check will cause 1 Conscript to get blapped for every unit of 20-30 - not every unit of 50. Means four units of 30 Conscripts rather than three units of 40 - to use the last GT winner's list as a comparator.

So after receiving a huge and devastating wave of attacks, the conscripts would lose 12 points of models instead of 9 points of models to morale. Pretty much a totally irrelevant change, and still makes conscripts way tougher to get rid of than they should be. Commissar ability should be changed to D6 models being shot in the face - way more realistic and fluffy, while still being better than not having the commissar at all. Especially as it still lets you reroll the dice, so you can burn CP's to drop the average losses (in this example) from 12 down to like 8.

Still only a minor nerf, and still makes them better than similar units like brims, but doesn't keep them indestructable.

Anyway, doesn't matter now as it seems unlikely that they've made any such change, will just have to see how the new unit plays out. I suspect they'll continue being used exactly the same as before, but with some shuffling of detachment to maximise CPs and traits/doctrines.

Hence why I highlighted it as only a 'sideline nerf' - and that mostly to just highlight that the reduced unit size does have some spillover into their synergy with Commissars and morale. But sure, cherry pick posts I guess.

I've suggested their morale synergy w/Commissars was what should have been adjusted in pretty much every Conscript-discussion quagmire that I've bothered with. I still hold that it would have been better to give them a special rule that makes it so Commissars only reduce their (as in Conscripts-only) morale losses by 50% rounding up rather than a strict D6 or only one - that way it scales pretty well with the casualties caused.

Still, feel that it's become irrelevant - they teased a Stratagem that lets IG combine squads. Why bother with Conscripts and wasting CPs on order re-rolls (or morale ones, even, if some kind of "D6 instead of only one" rule were imposed) when I can combine 3-4 Infantry squads to greater effect? Better WS, BS, no loss in Orders efficiency, can take special weapons... for probably only 1ppm more. Amused that those foaming at the mouth over Conscripts haven't crapped themselves a kitten over it yet.

 ross-128 wrote:
You end up needing more officers (they ain't free you know), more commissars (also not free) and have to execute twice as many models.
.

Well, lets look up what 'not free' constitutes.

Oh, shucks. 31 points for 6" bubble of immunity to morale. Warbossess are more than double that, at their very, VERY cheapest, and do D3 wounds instead of 1.

And commanders are 30 points for 2 orders.

At the very worst, one could argue they made it so that you have to bring an extra commander to have a similar (granted, only 50/50 odds) effect on 2x conscript squads, so they added 30 points. That's almost the price of one power klaw. Technically, not free, but it's not exactly expensive, either.

SilverAlien wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
The unit size reduction already reduces the scaling, commissars are now only about half as effective. Changing them to a d6 would make them useless for anything other than conscripts, and would make conscripts with a commissar potentially less durable than unsupported guardsmen.

And of course, unsupported conscripts are already less durable than Veterans, who aren't exactly considered a screening unit in the first place.

The size reduction does not effect the way the scale with commissars, not notably. You just alter the way you rank the conscripts slightly. It's barely anything. It helps with orders but those weren't the main issue.

When you consider how much the Valhallan's trait benefits conscripts who have their commissar sniped, which is one of the only effective ways to deal with the unit, the change becomes even more trivial by comparison. Conscripts may actually be stronger post codex if these are their only changes.

How is needing twice as many commissars (assuming you were bringing more than two squads in the first place) who proceed to execute twice as many models "no effect"?

And so what if the Valhallans have a faction specific buff to conscripts? If we nerf them to the point that even Valhallans are reluctant to take them, what do you think that will do to all the other regiments?

What does "balanced" even look like to you?

GhostRecon wrote:
Still, feel that it's become irrelevant - they teased a Stratagem that lets IG combine squads. Why bother with Conscripts and wasting CPs on order re-rolls (or morale ones, even, if some kind of "D6 instead of only one" rule were imposed) when I can combine 3-4 Infantry squads to greater effect? Better WS, BS, no loss in Orders efficiency, can take special weapons... for probably only 1ppm more. Amused that those foaming at the mouth over Conscripts haven't crapped themselves a kitten over it yet.

Because burning CP to increase order efficiency is balanced and the entire issue was and is conscripts absurd durability. how many times do we need to say the durability is the issue, one not nearly as present in the infantry which cost 33% more for the same defensive statline.

 Twoshoes23 wrote:
You should try shooting the conscripts...a lot. I've heard that reduces their strength. Or maybe changing the conscripts from troops to elites might be the better nerf here. Oh the irony

Now that you mention it, conscripts should be <Shoddy Troop> choices. Don't count towards troop choices, don't give objective secured but also no upper limit on how many units you can take. Just an extra choice you can place in any AM detachment. That would go a long way towards balancing them.

 ross-128 wrote:
How is needing twice as many commissars (assuming you were bringing more than two squads in the first place) who proceed to execute twice as many models "no effect"?

And so what if the Valhallans have a faction specific buff to conscripts? If we nerf them to the point that even Valhallans are reluctant to take them, what do you think that will do to all the other regiments?

What does "balanced" even look like to you?

4ppm is what balanced conscripts look like. Still far tougher than almost any other infantry unit at the cost of offensive power. Then guard infantry can be 5ppm so they aren't literally better than all other 4ppm infantry for no apparent reason.

Also, explain to me how me how this forces more commissars? If you had 50 or 100 conscripts in a single area, you can still have them in a single area, and easily arrange them so that each unit has a member in 6" of the commissar. It doesn't change things except in cases where people were abusing long tails of single conscripts leading back to the commissar. It slightly helps with that, not much though.

Conscripts are a major problem for armies like Orks... We have so simple way of killing of their characters to start affecting them in moral! While a good IG player will sit with a sniper or two in the back and chip away all our buffs! Remember! The Conscripts cost the same as a Grot! Therefore, if I put 30 conscripts against 30 grots the conscripts would win hands down!

 Purifier wrote:

 Twoshoes23 wrote:
You should try shooting the conscripts...a lot. I've heard that reduces their strength. Or maybe changing the conscripts from troops to elites might be the better nerf here. Oh the irony

Now that you mention it, conscripts should be <Shoddy Troop> choices. Don't count towards troop choices, don't give objective secured but also no upper limit on how many units you can take. Just an extra choice you can place in any AM detachment. That would go a long way towards balancing them.

Actually this is a solid suggestion.

Special rule: Not really soldiers. Conscripts do not occupy a force organization slot. You can have one squad of conscripts per troop choice present in your list.

I'm actually content with this move.

It seems more like you've just latched on to the points hike because it's easier to repeat a number ad nauseam than to actually think through what effects a change will have.

It also seems like you just miss how 7th ed guard were pushovers, and somehow got it into your head that that's "balanced", considering how you always end up extending your nerfs far beyond conscripts and try to nerf the entire codex into the ground instead.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

 Twoshoes23 wrote:
You should try shooting the conscripts...a lot. I've heard that reduces their strength. Or maybe changing the conscripts from troops to elites might be the better nerf here. Oh the irony

Now that you mention it, conscripts should be <Shoddy Troop> choices. Don't count towards troop choices, don't give objective secured but also no upper limit on how many units you can take. Just an extra choice you can place in any AM detachment. That would go a long way towards balancing them.

Actually this is a solid suggestion.

Special rule: Not really soldiers. Conscripts do not occupy a force organization slot. You can have one squad of conscripts per troop choice present in your list.

That sounds pretty good. The whole thing would also remove the way it is now where conscripts are competing with regular guardsmen for the troop choice slots. One of them will always be better than the other, since they're close to identical, but with this you'll need to bring guardsmen to get conscripts. A considerably more healthy way to balance things.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Well, it is worth pointing out that in terms of defense, Brimstone horrors in 2 30-blobs backed up by the changeling is a far more effective defensive screen than conscripts (2 wounds apiece, 4++, -1 to hit)

Horrors are kept in check by morale. You know, the way horde units are supposed to work.

In concept, yes, in practice...

Horrors are taken in 10 man squads to maximise smites and minimise morale. To kill a 10-man squad and have morale finish them off at Ld7 you generally want 6-7 dead. Lets say youre feeling lucky and you go for six (unfortunately that's a 2/3 chance that the single blue survives to smite another day.

To kill six horrors you need 6*2(wounds)*2(4++)*(3/2)(S4 vs T3)*2(BS3+ -1 from Changeling) = 72 BS3+ bolter shots.

To have a decent chance at removing 10.

Those 72 shots kill 72 *.666(hits)*.666(wounds)*.666(saves) = 21+1 for morale 22 conscripts.

if conscripts' defense was really that much of a problem, then horrors would be twice as much of a problem, would they not? Heck, Changeling doesn't even add that much - if you're not running him alongside magnus/alphabet soupmonster you might as well leave him out in favor of 30 more horrors.

Are Horrors not a problem? They strike me as pretty crazy still, depending on your list. Chaos may not be as good at putting together a gunline as the Imperium, but they still seem like the obvious choice for holding objectives and advancing forward while hiding characters. And certainly if Imperium had access to Horrors they'd be stupidly broken since they're impossibly good screening units and Imperium armies can have great gunlines.

But doesn't that just make Regular Inf. and vetrans worse for points?

 NenkotaMoon wrote:
But doesn't that just make Regular Inf. and vetrans worse for points?

There was an FLG battle report posted yesterday or the day before using the new rules. We know that Leman Russes and Heavy Weapon Teams have changed in cost (Russes are 125 and HWTs are 5) because the original list they posted had these values before they were censored. The list also had Veterans, still at 6 points. So Veterans are probably safe. I think it's more likely than not that regular Infantry are now 5 (the change to HWTs is very suggestive). Obviously this does make them worse for points, but they were quite good before and now they have doctrines so I'm not sure it's too much.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Well, it is worth pointing out that in terms of defense, Brimstone horrors in 2 30-blobs backed up by the changeling is a far more effective defensive screen than conscripts (2 wounds apiece, 4++, -1 to hit)

Horrors are kept in check by morale. You know, the way horde units are supposed to work.

In concept, yes, in practice...

Horrors are taken in 10 man squads to maximise smites and minimise morale. To kill a 10-man squad and have morale finish them off at Ld7 you generally want 6-7 dead. Lets say youre feeling lucky and you go for six (unfortunately that's a 2/3 chance that the single blue survives to smite another day.

To kill six horrors you need 6*2(wounds)*2(4++)*(3/2)(S4 vs T3)*2(BS3+ -1 from Changeling) = 72 BS3+ bolter shots.

To have a decent chance at removing 10.

Those 72 shots kill 72 *.666(hits)*.666(wounds)*.666(saves) = 21+1 for morale 22 conscripts.

if conscripts' defense was really that much of a problem, then horrors would be twice as much of a problem, would they not? Heck, Changeling doesn't even add that much - if you're not running him alongside magnus/alphabet soupmonster you might as well leave him out in favor of 30 more horrors.

But... but....

Horrors and conscripts are not an apples to apples comparison because of the different offensive output. Part of defense is eliminating potential threats.

Also, remind me about the part where Chaos Daemons get access to cheap armor, like Basilisk Earthshakers? Horrors may make an excellent defensive screen, but they appear in assault oriented armies. Conscripts are part of armies that tend to shoot big guns.

It's not fair to look at them in a silo. Those 4ppm go a lot farther in one army than another.

 techsoldaten wrote:

But... but....

Horrors and conscripts are not an apples to apples comparison because of the different offensive output. Part of defense is eliminating potential threats.

Also, remind me about the part where Chaos Daemons get access to cheap armor, like Basilisk Earthshakers? Horrors may make an excellent defensive screen, but they appear in assault oriented armies. Conscripts are part of armies that tend to shoot big guns.

It's not fair to look at them in a silo. Those 4ppm go a lot farther in one army than another.

This is actually possible with Renegades and Heretics. You can bring Horrors and Earthshaker Batteries in the same detachment.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
You end up needing more officers (they ain't free you know), more commissars (also not free) and have to execute twice as many models.
.

Well, lets look up what 'not free' constitutes.

Oh, shucks. 31 points for 6" bubble of immunity to morale. Warbossess are more than double that, at their very, VERY cheapest, and do D3 wounds instead of 1.

And commanders are 30 points for 2 orders.

At the very worst, one could argue they made it so that you have to bring an extra commander to have a similar (granted, only 50/50 odds) effect on 2x conscript squads, so they added 30 points. That's almost the price of one power klaw. Technically, not free, but it's not exactly expensive, either.

The better comparison is the Runt Herd, an elite choice (like the commissar), only helps with Morale on Gretchin (same cost as Conscripts, worse unit), does not buff their LD, and kills D3 models. Costs 5 points less than the commissar.



As for everyone saying "well Brims..." so another unit being too good means no balance for conscripts is ok. Just clarifying that is what you are saying?

Breng77 wrote:


As for everyone saying "well Brims..." so another unit being too good means no balance for conscripts is ok. Just clarifying that is what you are saying?

"Ok, so let's deal with brims balance then"
"well Conscripts..."

I guess neither can ever be nerfed first!

 Purifier wrote:
This doesn't really fix them at all, if it's the only change. The reduced unit size is ok, I suppose, but then you just get two units instead and cluster them around the Commissar.

The problem was always the Commissar, so I guess we'll see if he is changed at all. My guess is no.

I only skimmed the rest but this is what is the problem with them (though never really had a prob with them in competitive lists... every other list((e.g my fun actually want to play lists) has been lets say less fun)). The output of orders has never been the issue with them its the cheap screen with 2 coms out of los in range of 2 units of conscripts (both coms in range). the reduction to 30 should make a change but not that much.

We try to minimse large terrain at my local (so snipers are valid) but i pitty the fluffy player at a local that has a gak tonne of terrain and comes against it.

The biggest difference between Conscripts and Brimstones is this:

"I killed half your Brimstone unit, the other half poofs out of existence. I don't have to worry about that unit next turn"
"I killed half your Conscript unit....and only 1 more dies. I now have to spend another turn and more resources on that unit"

The changes we have seen will not really change this...at all. If, however, Conscipts are more points, or Commissars are less effective *specifically to Conscripts*, than we have balance.
Maybe Summary Execution stays as it is, with the caveat that Conscripts take D6 more casualties instead of just 1?

-

 Galef wrote:
The biggest difference between Conscripts and Brimstones is this:

"I killed half your Brimstone unit, the other half poofs out of existence. I don't have to worry about that unit next turn"
"I killed half your Conscript unit....and only 1 more dies. I now have to spend another turn and more resources on that unit"

The changes we have seen will not really change this...at all. If, however, Conscipts are more points, or Commissars are less effective *specifically to Conscripts*, than we have balance.
Maybe Summary Execution stays as it is, with the caveat that Conscripts take D6 more casualties instead of just 1?

-

Did you read the thread where this was debunked?

Why is this so awful but Chaos Cultists + Iron Warriors character (auto-pass morale) not? Is it just the cost (Cultists are 5 ppm?)

Chaos can also use Mutant Rabble + Enforcer from the R&H list to do approximately the same thing (4ppm for Rabble, Enforcer does d3 instead of 1).

All that said, I would have no problems with limiting Conscripts to 1 unit per troop choice, and no Obj. Sec.

Disappointing, simply disappointing.

I said before in other threads that a roll to see if orders passed would be the worst balance they could do.

Well GW well played, you proved me right. You could have just made it so certain orders don't work so players could actually use strategy as they would know what to expect. You could have nerfed the actually OP part of conscripts, their insane efficent resiliency by reducing their armor save to a 6+. Nope, more random rolls. Hey Daemon players how did you feel about random rolls in 6th and 7th?

Their points cost won't change, Conscripts will still be the backbone of Imperial Soup. Just better now with regiment rules.