Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
The problem with reducing conscript durability is you still need them to stick around.

Deepstrikers will still be at full strength on turn 2 or turn 3, so if all they need to do to invalidate your screen is evaporate it turn one, then you essentially might as well have not brought a screen at all. All you did was buy yourself a turn before everything important gets deleted from orbit with no recourse (or tied up in assault and either dead or useless).

Reducing their durability means you need to bring more points of screening units to make up the difference so that they will stick around, which means you have less firepower to otherwise destroy your opponent. Part of the issue is having a screen so cheap you give up very little offense (which is also relatively cheap in IG). It is also important to note that for assault deepstrike is that it is very risky as there is a 50% chance that even the best deepstrike units will fail their charge entirely. At this point I'm willing to see how smaller squads works, though it seems that 30 was the average size many top lists were running anyway, so I'm not convinced that it will be entirely effective. I will also note, some of this would be less of an issue for me if IG were also not the largest user of LOS ignoring weaponry, so their bubble wrap is effective at denying any way at all to deal with their damage dealing units.

Breng77 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
The problem with reducing conscript durability is you still need them to stick around.

Deepstrikers will still be at full strength on turn 2 or turn 3, so if all they need to do to invalidate your screen is evaporate it turn one, then you essentially might as well have not brought a screen at all. All you did was buy yourself a turn before everything important gets deleted from orbit with no recourse (or tied up in assault and either dead or useless).

Reducing their durability means you need to bring more points of screening units to make up the difference so that they will stick around, which means you have less firepower to otherwise destroy your opponent. Part of the issue is having a screen so cheap you give up very little offense (which is also relatively cheap in IG). It is also important to note that for assault deepstrike is that it is very risky as there is a 50% chance that even the best deepstrike units will fail their charge entirely. At this point I'm willing to see how smaller squads works, though it seems that 30 was the average size many top lists were running anyway, so I'm not convinced that it will be entirely effective. I will also note, some of this would be less of an issue for me if IG were also not the largest user of LOS ignoring weaponry, so their bubble wrap is effective at denying any way at all to deal with their damage dealing units.

The problem I forsee with forcing people to bring more screens is that's more models in the battlespace which is slower in time and more unwieldy in space. There is, quite literally, an upper limit to the amount and thickness of screens one can deploy (the size of one's DZ). If you start saying "well, just bring more models!" then you start cramping and cramping DZs more and more until you've essentially won just by turning the game into "can the Leman Russes navigate the sea of conscripts enough to actually do anything" and that doesn't sound like an improved game to me.

If you halve conscript durability, you make them take double the units. But that means they take double the boardspace. Which means you end up with conscripts essentially all over the place, literally tripping over eachother and gumming up the works of the actual ARMY part of the army.

A screen should be a screen - like a picket line, not like an ocean in which the rest of the units wallow like 17th century warships trying to maneuver.

 Vaktathi wrote:
And here I am still just giggling because I'd never have imagined, through my many years of playing this game, that Imperial Guard conscripts would be such a big meta issue and power unit

You know, when you put it that way, it does seem a bit silly, doesn't it?

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
And here I am still just giggling because I'd never have imagined, through my many years of playing this game, that Imperial Guard conscripts would be such a big meta issue and power unit

You know, when you put it that way, it does seem a bit silly, doesn't it?

You know what's silly? Suddenly every army is filled with not a single experienced guardsman, every soldier fresh off the factory floor... And Guilliman.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And what's really messed up is, if you were to delete conscripts from the game today... Guardsmen are still an INCREDIBLE screening unit, yet they're getting outperformed by their greener brothers, just because bodycount is the real winner.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
The problem with reducing conscript durability is you still need them to stick around.

Deepstrikers will still be at full strength on turn 2 or turn 3, so if all they need to do to invalidate your screen is evaporate it turn one, then you essentially might as well have not brought a screen at all. All you did was buy yourself a turn before everything important gets deleted from orbit with no recourse (or tied up in assault and either dead or useless).

Reducing their durability means you need to bring more points of screening units to make up the difference so that they will stick around, which means you have less firepower to otherwise destroy your opponent. Part of the issue is having a screen so cheap you give up very little offense (which is also relatively cheap in IG). It is also important to note that for assault deepstrike is that it is very risky as there is a 50% chance that even the best deepstrike units will fail their charge entirely. At this point I'm willing to see how smaller squads works, though it seems that 30 was the average size many top lists were running anyway, so I'm not convinced that it will be entirely effective. I will also note, some of this would be less of an issue for me if IG were also not the largest user of LOS ignoring weaponry, so their bubble wrap is effective at denying any way at all to deal with their damage dealing units.

The problem I forsee with forcing people to bring more screens is that's more models in the battlespace which is slower in time and more unwieldy in space. There is, quite literally, an upper limit to the amount and thickness of screens one can deploy (the size of one's DZ). If you start saying "well, just bring more models!" then you start cramping and cramping DZs more and more until you've essentially won just by turning the game into "can the Leman Russes navigate the sea of conscripts enough to actually do anything" and that doesn't sound like an improved game to me.

If you halve conscript durability, you make them take double the units. But that means they take double the boardspace. Which means you end up with conscripts essentially all over the place, literally tripping over eachother and gumming up the works of the actual ARMY part of the army.

A screen should be a screen - like a picket line, not like an ocean in which the rest of the units wallow like 17th century warships trying to maneuver.

I would love screening troops to be more like light infantry/skirmishers. Troops more geared to harass and stop movement rather than a mass of bodies but I don't know if that could work in 40k.

Asmodios wrote:
IMO just make conscripts only available to all guard armies. Conscripts are not an issue imperial soup is. I really wish there was a heavy tax for combining imperium forces. you can always find a broken combo when taking the very best units from multiple books.

This cannot be more accurate, so far I've only faced single faction battle forged armies. This has to do with the gamers at my club, our not uber competitive nature, and a relatively large number of new players who own single faction collections. I'm still shocked that Army doctrines are tied to the detachment and will be interested in seeing that play in person vice on a battle report. If doctrines (etc) were tied to the key word the Army was battle forged on then Imperial soup would get the nerfing that many claim it needs. I could also see multi faction Armies paying a CP tax to get a doctrine for a detachment: example

Ultra Marine Battalion, AM Battalion, and Admech Patrol... battleforged under imperium (maybe there is an Imperium doctrine they could get for free?) and if the player wanted, pay a CP to get the Ultra marines their Doctrine and/or pay a CP to get the AM/AdMech theirs, now instead of 9 CPs they start with 6-8... or like the artifact stratagem 1CP gets you one doctrine, 3CPs get you 2...

Or you can play an Army battleforged on something like Catachan and get the Doctrine for free because the organization's commander doesn't need to spend time/thoughts on organizing a force they are used too.

 Purifier wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
And here I am still just giggling because I'd never have imagined, through my many years of playing this game, that Imperial Guard conscripts would be such a big meta issue and power unit

You know, when you put it that way, it does seem a bit silly, doesn't it?

You know what's silly? Suddenly every army is filled with not a single experienced guardsman, every soldier fresh off the factory floor... And Guilliman.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And what's really messed up is, if you were to delete conscripts from the game today... Guardsmen are still an INCREDIBLE screening unit, yet they're getting outperformed by their greener brothers, just because bodycount is the real winner.

I agree totally. They should put a 2 regular squad tax per single conscript unit taken. I guess something like that could be in the dex. It was like that in 7th, so I don't see why they wouldn't do it again. I'd never run my guard with all conscripts because it friggin stupid.

 crimsondave wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
And here I am still just giggling because I'd never have imagined, through my many years of playing this game, that Imperial Guard conscripts would be such a big meta issue and power unit

You know, when you put it that way, it does seem a bit silly, doesn't it?

You know what's silly? Suddenly every army is filled with not a single experienced guardsman, every soldier fresh off the factory floor... And Guilliman.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And what's really messed up is, if you were to delete conscripts from the game today... Guardsmen are still an INCREDIBLE screening unit, yet they're getting outperformed by their greener brothers, just because bodycount is the real winner.

Or even a 1x conscript per detachment... also addresses imperial soup and spamming conscripts means you are loosing faction doctrine buffs unless you are all Guard.
I agree totally. They should put a 2 regular squad tax per single conscript unit taken. I guess something like that could be in the dex. It was like that in 7th, so I don't see why they wouldn't do it again. I'd never run my guard with all conscripts because it friggin stupid.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


The problem is that those other screening units aren't doing their job though, not that conscripts are. I am of the opinion that a unit performing its "role" is a positive thing, and so the goal would be to make other units perform their role as well.

You would absolutely not have to buff guardians or kabalites; those aren't screening units. They're more similar to IG line infantry. A screening unit is a unit designed to be thrown away to no other purpose. The current screening units are:

Gaunts (though they're flexible and can buy upgrades to become a force in their own right, making them a bit too expensive for the role).
Grots (Arguably overpriced; I think they are).
Conscripts (Actually good at screening)
Kroot (Garbage)

No other armies have screening units that I can think of. This is a designed flaw (deliberate or otherwise) of those armies.

So, now that I've made my own little opinionated definition of a screening unit, I can see the problem. The problem is not that conscripts are over-performing as a screening unit; I think it's that their offensive firepower is out of whack. This tells me that a nerf to orders (not sure the 4+ is enough TBQH, would have been happier if they lost orders entirely) is a good solution.

The other half of the problem is Grots, Gaunts, and Kroot are underperforming in their task as screening units, though this is mitigated somewhat in the case of Grots and Gaunts because screening is less important for their armies. This means that, rather than crippling everyone's ability to screen by nerfing the ones doing their job, one should at least allow the armies who the designers intended to have screens to actually have those screens, which means buffing the relevant units. (Grots and Gaunts need a slight adjustment; Tau Kroot are just awful).

I've mentioned this briefly before, but Eldar did also have access to a decent screening option in the Dark Eldar Razorwing Flocks. 7 points a model, for a T2 W4 model that was basically useless for anything but absorbing fire and blocking deepstrikes for a turn, with a small chance of doing some damage in return with a bunch of extremely weak melee attacks. Basically, ideal screener unit.

Problem is, because it was the only screener that Eldar had access to (all eldar, including dark eldar, harlies, ect), it began to be used in decent numbers. And because the games workshop model is stupidly expensive, people bought the model from other sources for cheaper, or converted their own.

And so GW doubled the points cost, making them now 14 points for 4 wounds, making them less efficient per wound than conscripts, while being only T2 and no armour save and no gun and no orders. So they went from being appropriately priced for what they were, to being more worthless per point than grots. And left three Eldar armies without any means of cheap screening unit.

This, and the state of grots and kroot, and necrons total lack of an option, is why everyone dislikes conscripts right now. Really, it's just jealousy. But it's understandable jealousy.

Niiru wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


The problem is that those other screening units aren't doing their job though, not that conscripts are. I am of the opinion that a unit performing its "role" is a positive thing, and so the goal would be to make other units perform their role as well.

You would absolutely not have to buff guardians or kabalites; those aren't screening units. They're more similar to IG line infantry. A screening unit is a unit designed to be thrown away to no other purpose. The current screening units are:

Gaunts (though they're flexible and can buy upgrades to become a force in their own right, making them a bit too expensive for the role).
Grots (Arguably overpriced; I think they are).
Conscripts (Actually good at screening)
Kroot (Garbage)

No other armies have screening units that I can think of. This is a designed flaw (deliberate or otherwise) of those armies.

So, now that I've made my own little opinionated definition of a screening unit, I can see the problem. The problem is not that conscripts are over-performing as a screening unit; I think it's that their offensive firepower is out of whack. This tells me that a nerf to orders (not sure the 4+ is enough TBQH, would have been happier if they lost orders entirely) is a good solution.

The other half of the problem is Grots, Gaunts, and Kroot are underperforming in their task as screening units, though this is mitigated somewhat in the case of Grots and Gaunts because screening is less important for their armies. This means that, rather than crippling everyone's ability to screen by nerfing the ones doing their job, one should at least allow the armies who the designers intended to have screens to actually have those screens, which means buffing the relevant units. (Grots and Gaunts need a slight adjustment; Tau Kroot are just awful).

I've mentioned this briefly before, but Eldar did also have access to a decent screening option in the Dark Eldar Razorwing Flocks. 7 points a model, for a T2 W4 model that was basically useless for anything but absorbing fire and blocking deepstrikes for a turn, with a small chance of doing some damage in return with a bunch of extremely weak melee attacks. Basically, ideal screener unit.

Problem is, because it was the only screener that Eldar had access to (all eldar, including dark eldar, harlies, ect), it began to be used in decent numbers. And because the games workshop model is stupidly expensive, people bought the model from other sources for cheaper, or converted their own.

And so GW doubled the points cost, making them now 14 points for 4 wounds, making them less efficient per wound than conscripts, while being only T2 and no armour save and no gun and no orders. So they went from being appropriately priced for what they were, to being more worthless per point than grots. And left three Eldar armies without any means of cheap screening unit.

This, and the state of grots and kroot, and necrons total lack of an option, is why everyone dislikes conscripts right now. Really, it's just jealousy. But it's understandable jealousy.

Fluff wise I understand why Eldar might not have a screen or fodder unit since they are an elite army from a under populated race. Same with Space Marines and other elite forces. Tau, Orks, Necrons, and Nids (especially the later 3 do to numbers) should have conscript like units.

 WhiteHaven wrote:


Fluff wise I understand why Eldar might not have a screen or fodder unit since they are an elite army from a under populated race. Same with Space Marines and other elite forces. Tau, Orks, Necrons, and Nids (especially the later 3 do to numbers) should have conscript like units.

I can totally agree with this, if the other Eldar rules also reflected this.

For instance, they should have the best long range weaponry, and the best armour, as they would want to keep their few surviving soldiers alive. Their weaponry is ok, but their armour is average to poor.

They also shouldn't be strapping their soldiers to the front of their war walkers like some kind of bizarre human shield.

Their elite forces should also be the best of the best, after hundreds of years of practise and access to advanced weaponry.

Mostly though, they're just expensive and easy to kill. Y'know, cos a dying race would obviously put all it's efforts into making its people as fragile as possible.

(Well ok, Dark Eldar should be fragile, they're crazy pirate glass cannons, that's fine and I love 'em. But craftworld eldar should be way better than they are, for their current points costs.)

However, there is at least a slight chance this is all only due to their codex not being out yet, and I'm giving GW a big chance to get it right for the Xenos in november. I think Eldar is going to be the first of the Xenos codices, after giving pretty much all of the Imperium a series of massive boosts to their armies. If they end up nerfing Ynnari, and then not giving anything much to the craftworlds, and just generally doing their old-style half assed job, then it won't bode well for all the Tau/Necron/Ork players out there.

If Eldar don't get a screening unit option, then they should have an alternative. They're all highly trained, with psychic weaponry and armour and all sorts of advancements... give them a better overwatch, or the ability to shoot units that deepstrike within 12" of them. A counter to deepstrikers would pretty much solve it, as it would stop deep striking assault units and scions from popping in without issue and destroying the super-elite and yet defenceless eldar.

I like the nerfs. The commisar nerf is very minor, essentially the commisar will now execute two conscripts in order to pass a morale test. The order nerf is more substantial. Conscripts will now struggle to fall back and shoot, and their considerable shooting damage output has been cut by about a quarter. Now they need to nerf guilliman, mortars and plasma scions and give the le man russ a needed buff.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
The problem I forsee with forcing people to bring more screens is that's more models in the battlespace which is slower in time and more unwieldy in space. There is, quite literally, an upper limit to the amount and thickness of screens one can deploy (the size of one's DZ). If you start saying "well, just bring more models!" then you start cramping and cramping DZs more and more until you've essentially won just by turning the game into "can the Leman Russes navigate the sea of conscripts enough to actually do anything" and that doesn't sound like an improved game to me.

If you halve conscript durability, you make them take double the units. But that means they take double the boardspace. Which means you end up with conscripts essentially all over the place, literally tripping over eachother and gumming up the works of the actual ARMY part of the army.

A screen should be a screen - like a picket line, not like an ocean in which the rest of the units wallow like 17th century warships trying to maneuver.

Forcing guard to bring slightly fewer models than everyone else for the same strength screen is fine. Again, everything you say sounds idiotic when you remember we are literally just making them slightly more durable than almost every other screening unit.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Well, it is worth pointing out that in terms of defense, Brimstone horrors in 2 30-blobs backed up by the changeling is a far more effective defensive screen than conscripts (2 wounds apiece, 4++, -1 to hit)

Horrors are kept in check by morale. You know, the way horde units are supposed to work.

In concept, yes, in practice...

Horrors are taken in 10 man squads to maximise smites and minimise morale. To kill a 10-man squad and have morale finish them off at Ld7 you generally want 6-7 dead. Lets say youre feeling lucky and you go for six (unfortunately that's a 2/3 chance that the single blue survives to smite another day.

To kill six horrors you need 6*2(wounds)*2(4++)*(3/2)(S4 vs T3)*2(BS3+ -1 from Changeling) = 72 BS3+ bolter shots.

To have a decent chance at removing 10.

Those 72 shots kill 72 *.666(hits)*.666(wounds)*.666(saves) = 21+1 for morale 22 conscripts.

if conscripts' defense was really that much of a problem, then horrors would be twice as much of a problem, would they not? Heck, Changeling doesn't even add that much - if you're not running him alongside magnus/alphabet soupmonster you might as well leave him out in favor of 30 more horrors.

Again, Brimstones only have 1 Wound each, so its only 36 bolter shots.
Why do you keep ignoring this?

Probably irrelevant now with the Codex coming, but my Conscript changes/suggestions would've been:

Same Stat-line (from Index)
Reduction to 20-30 Squad size. Still 3ppm.

Shoddy Lasrifle
Heavy 2 24" S3 AP0 DM1

Get back in line you rabble! (GBILYR)
Any time a Commissar or Lord Commissar uses Summary Execution on this unit, reduce its casualties from the failed morale check by 50% rounding up instead of only one (if the unit is part of a Valhallan regiment and has the Grim Determination rule, the casualties are reduced by 75% rounding up instead of only one). These casualties can never be reduced below 1.

Why the 'shoddy lasrifle'? It's an easier way to reduce Conscript efficacy without adding random dice rolls for Orders. Lets them use certain Orders, but FRFSRF is no longer an option; moving them aggressively becomes problematic too thanks to the -1 to hit from 'Heavy' penalty but keeps the threat/flavor of the crapload of shots they can put out if they stand still (but now less than the Rapid Fire 2 that FRFSRF gives them under 12").

GBILYR? Scales with casualties - rather than an arbitrary D6 for every failed morale check. This way it rewards players for dedicating a good amount of shooting while still allowing the Commissar to mitigate quite a bit of morale shock damage. In an earlier example someone had an instance where some ~21 Conscripts die in a shooting phase. With the current system, the morale shock is 1; under the D6 idea the average is 3.5 (leaving ~6); under GBILYR it would be almost ~8 - rewarding your opponent for dedicating a lot of firepower at your screen. By contrast, lets say only 10 of 30 are killed. You go from only 1, the D6's 3.5, to GBILYR's 2.25. Lower, say only 5 Conscripts? 1, 3.5, GBILYR: 1. It scales more effectively than the D6 method and lessens some of the frustration of feeling as if you've 'wasted' shots on the Conscripts while preserving their durability - you have to give them a bit of focus to get morale shock to help degrade them. This lets them serve their purpose while still remaining more vulnerable to morale shock caused by focused fire.

Preserving some benefit of the Valhallan regimental doctrine was to help force options to remain open. Do you want Vostroyan Conscripts to stand and pepper things w/30" fire and screen your gunline? Maybe Catachan ones that can be a more aggressive CC unit - but then their shooting suffers and their durability won't be improved as much as it could be. Etc.

About the same 2 cents I lob every Conscript discussion so far, anyway.

Barely a nerf. Good to see favouritism alive and well. Strongest army gets stronger and a token nerf that does almost nothing. Okay then.

Good god can we wait to see the full rules before crying foul.
We dont know:

1) if commissars have been nerfed
2) if Commissars are more points
3) if officers have been nerfed
4) if officers have increased in points
5) if Conscripts are nerfed points wise/ force org wise

I am sorry that Imperial Soup has ruined things for the other players out there and that conscripts are currently ridiculous if abused. But can we try to all calm down and rationalize the situation. We don't know yet what the final rules will entail.

Now that said I will admit most of what I have seen on this thread is fair Ideas, like taking them out of obsec and the force org. Personally I would prefer a squad per 1000k cap. We don't need to smash the army into the ground with nerfs. Other than sisters, I believe all of the armies out there have had way over the top units in terms of power to point ratio, looking at you Eldar . And for those of you who had those units made unplayable, didn't it feel like garbage. Especially if they were one of your favorite units. We all want balance, I have loved commissars more than any other unit in the game. They are really more 40k than any other unit out there when you think of it. They are Grim dark made manifest. Combined with the conscripts is exactly what guard is, Brutal faith being used to prop up the masses against overwhelming odds.

I love the whole concept of conscript and how in the army who we are most supposed to identify with, our good guys we have some of the most evil gak out there. Send in the next wave and shooting into combat because we don't care about our men when even chaos doesn't do that is Amazing. It is this bleak darkness that we love about 40k. I always laugh when chaos players would say that it is boring to play the good guys, because compared to the guard, they are playing the good guys.

Besides off all of you calling for blood, how many of you have actually played against armies that abused the Chaos out of them? This feels like rage over the idea of them.

Hopefully GW will take a nice Conservative approach to all units that need some re balancing.

Edit: Not to pick on you but I really dislike the shoddy las rifle rule. Las guns are a reliable staple of the imperial guard and no Admech worth his salt would allow his forge to produce such inferior product.

Des702 wrote:


Hopefully GW will take a nice Conservative approach to all units that need some re balancing.

I think the problem a lot of players have, and the reason why Xenos players especially are getting angry even though the codex isn't totally revealed yet, is that this does look so far like a very mild nerf. A conservative approach, that may in a few months time lead to another minor change in a chapter approved.

It annoys them because the Imperium is getting minor/conservative changes to units causing major problems, while Xenos players got huge blanket knee-jerk nerfs that made units totally unplayable, with little or no justification.

If GW only took a conservative approach to all armies, then it would be good. It's the best way to balance. But instead they listen to the imperium crybabies, nerf the naughty aliens into the ground, and then eventually give token non-changes to the imperium units that are clearly causing problems.

It's annoying, and disheartening.

Saying all that, I hope the knee-jerk nerfs were a reaction to the indexes, and so such problems will be fixed (especially for xenos) as their codices are released. Otherwise 8th edition is going to be the Horus Heresy - Big Humans vs Smaller Humans vs Angry Humans, all day long.

Niiru wrote:

Des702 wrote:


Hopefully GW will take a nice Conservative approach to all units that need some re balancing.

I think the problem a lot of players have, and the reason why Xenos players especially are getting angry even though the codex isn't totally revealed yet, is that this does look so far like a very mild nerf. A conservative approach, that may in a few months time lead to another minor change in a chapter approved.

It annoys them because the Imperium is getting minor/conservative changes to units causing major problems, while Xenos players got huge blanket knee-jerk nerfs that made units totally unplayable, with little or no justification.

If GW only took a conservative approach to all armies, then it would be good. It's the best way to balance. But instead they listen to the imperium crybabies, nerf the naughty aliens into the ground, and then eventually give token non-changes to the imperium units that are clearly causing problems.

It's annoying, and disheartening.

Saying all that, I hope the knee-jerk nerfs were a reaction to the indexes, and so such problems will be fixed (especially for xenos) as their codices are released. Otherwise 8th edition is going to be the Horus Heresy - Big Humans vs Smaller Humans vs Angry Humans, all day long.

lol you think only Xenos players are getting angry?

Niiru wrote:

Des702 wrote:


Hopefully GW will take a nice Conservative approach to all units that need some re balancing.

I think the problem a lot of players have, and the reason why Xenos players especially are getting angry even though the codex isn't totally revealed yet, is that this does look so far like a very mild nerf. A conservative approach, that may in a few months time lead to another minor change in a chapter approved.

It annoys them because the Imperium is getting minor/conservative changes to units causing major problems, while Xenos players got huge blanket knee-jerk nerfs that made units totally unplayable, with little or no justification.

If GW only took a conservative approach to all armies, then it would be good. It's the best way to balance. But instead they listen to the imperium crybabies, nerf the naughty aliens into the ground, and then eventually give token non-changes to the imperium units that are clearly causing problems.

It's annoying, and disheartening.

Saying all that, I hope the knee-jerk nerfs were a reaction to the indexes, and so such problems will be fixed (especially for xenos) as their codices are released. Otherwise 8th edition is going to be the Horus Heresy - Big Humans vs Smaller Humans vs Angry Humans, all day long.

Thank you for this. 8th edition balancing is bigger hypocritical gak than 7th now. In 7th the newest was the strongest giving a weird level of balance out to everyone. Here it's imps all day every day and sometimes chaos too. This balance change is so one sided it's making me pack up and move on from 8th. Despite now being able to play I now don't want to touch 30k 2.0 with a ten foot pole. Guilliman is super overpowered and no one ever complains.

Imp players = wehraboos who destroyed company of heroes 1+2 balance. Never trust wehraboos for balancing. Most biased fans in existence.

Wow the nazi card... please don't contribute if you cannot be respectful of other gamers.

Also it is not the imperial guard players that make the rules, we mostly agree on wanting balance.

We all want balance, I am sure your army at one point had some crazy powerful units that frustrated other gamers.

 Gamgee wrote:

Niiru wrote:

Des702 wrote:


Hopefully GW will take a nice Conservative approach to all units that need some re balancing.

I think the problem a lot of players have, and the reason why Xenos players especially are getting angry even though the codex isn't totally revealed yet, is that this does look so far like a very mild nerf. A conservative approach, that may in a few months time lead to another minor change in a chapter approved.

It annoys them because the Imperium is getting minor/conservative changes to units causing major problems, while Xenos players got huge blanket knee-jerk nerfs that made units totally unplayable, with little or no justification.

If GW only took a conservative approach to all armies, then it would be good. It's the best way to balance. But instead they listen to the imperium crybabies, nerf the naughty aliens into the ground, and then eventually give token non-changes to the imperium units that are clearly causing problems.

It's annoying, and disheartening.

Saying all that, I hope the knee-jerk nerfs were a reaction to the indexes, and so such problems will be fixed (especially for xenos) as their codices are released. Otherwise 8th edition is going to be the Horus Heresy - Big Humans vs Smaller Humans vs Angry Humans, all day long.

Thank you for this. 8th edition balancing is bigger hypocritical gak than 7th now. In 7th the newest was the strongest giving a weird level of balance out to everyone. Here it's imps all day every day and sometimes chaos too. This balance change is so one sided it's making me pack up and move on from 8th. Despite now being able to play I now don't want to touch 30k 2.0 with a ten foot pole. Guilliman is super overpowered and no one ever complains.

Imp players = wehraboos who destroyed company of heroes 1+2 balance. Never trust wehraboos for balancing. Most biased fans in existence.

Now, in fairness, we are being a little early on this. I know I just wrote that big rant, but it's in part because of the nature of this game having a slow rollout of rules. These things happen.

So far though, each codex released has solved problems for the army concerned. In particular the recent AdMech codex solved a few of their major issues, and seems to have given them a lot more opportunity for variety than they had before. Cawl+Bots will still be a major player, but that's more a problem with their limited variety of units than anything else. The codex definitly seemed to be the right moves in the right directions though.

The problem is that all the codex releases so far have been for the Imperium, in one form or another. Ok, sure, there was Chaos and Death Guard, but they're still basically space marines so many of the alterations were just copy/pasted. Admech was the first codex for an army a bit outside the usual mold, and it seemed to do a decent job (for a small codex subfaction type book, anyway). So far, GW have pretty much been doing what they promised - constant and relatively quick codex releases, along with updates and balancing where needed. Obviously so far, a lot of this "balance as needed" has been done in the codex releases, which is fair enough (though a bit slower than many would like).

The next few releases though will be the biggest signpost as to the kind of job GW plan to do with 8th as a whole.

- Imperial Guard codex needs to be done well, in order to fix the Imperial Soup problems that are the major issue right now.

- Eldar codex needs to be done well, in order to give xenos players hope for next year. (Actually I realise Tyranids is also coming out at around the same time, and personally I think that's equally important. Whichever comes first.)

- Chapter Approved needs to be well thought out, giving all players an idea of how GW plan to keep updating 8th on an ongoing basis.


Right now, it actually is too early to really judge. GW have been doing as they promised, and they haven't done a *bad* job at it. They just haven't done a great job at fixing the mistakes, or at least they've been slow with doing it.

Within 2 months though, we will know for sure, one way or another. Here's hoping!


ps. Only just realised Tyranids were queued up at a similar timeframe as the Eldar codex. Eldar, Tyranids and Orks are the holy trinity of Xenos armies (in my opinion), and all three really need to be done well. Currently, I think Orks need the most work, as they are currently completely broken as an army. Eldar need a lot of things fixed, but it's more tweaks than huge changes. And Tyranids I think are in the best place, relative to the other Xenos armies, so maybe only tweaks on some units? I am out of date on Tyranids though so I may be missing some big issues, I've only read through the codex not researched online. Still, GW doing 2 of those armies by the end of this year is a good sign, I wasn't expecting tyranids until next year.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Des702 wrote:
Wow the nazi card... please don't contribute if you cannot be respectful of other gamers.

Also it is not the imperial guard players that make the rules, we mostly agree on wanting balance.

We all want balance, I am sure your army at one point had some crazy powerful units that frustrated other gamers.

Who said Nazi? Is wehraboos some kind of slang for nazi? I just thought he was mis-spelling anime fan...

A wehraboo is not a nazi. There is a big difference. They are fans of the German Wehrmacht and show excessive fanboyism and irrationality in debates about their historical effectiveness.

Edit
I would say Dark Eldar are in a good spot too. Maybe some small tweaks and buffs but otherwise good. The big issue they have is holding objectives.

Ok maybe I jumped the gun a bit on that one. I just think labeling all of the imp players one way is a bad Idea on how to move a discussion forward.

From you Sig I assume you play Tau. Weren't you annoyed when everyone was out for their, and to a lesser extent your blood.

Do you really want guard to go the way of the Tau right now?

I honestly want to see the Tau get a proper codex that puts them in line with everyone else. Nothing worse than winning because of dex strength alone.

Conscripts can be great without overpowering. Honestly if they removed imperial soup I think that would solve so many problems.Just remove all special chapter/forgeworld/regiment rules along with Auras if you want to soup up major armies. Exceptions for Assassins and the like.

Like I said. Lets see the full extent of what GW can manage. So far they have done way better this edition than they have in the past 5 editions.

Is it too soon to get angry and call for an army-wide boycott of IG? Gamgee - are you with me?!

I know IG is the Codex to rag on right now, but I really have no sympathy for someone that is defending the merit of Conscripts in a Codex full of fantastic options to put out firepower or add bodies to the table.

Conscripts were OP, plain and simple. Do I think this nerf is enough? No. I really don't think Commissars should effect them at all, or that if he does shoot one for a rally, it should be for a re-roll on the morale check for Conscripts, not an instant rally.

He's basically bringing the Nazi card without saying it.

Well what has changed to make them go from crap (as they were in 7th) to OP, Templates. What about something that makes them take more hits from weapons that do d* amount of hits. to represent large squad size.

Also I am not defending their power as I have stated 3ish times, I want them balanced, but nerfing them to tau like proportions doesn't solve anything and can set a bad president for other armies.

The brimstone vs conscript screening comparison is kind of facetious simply because of the army function: Chaos has a lot of units that do their damage inside of 24", and are going to be sending Magnus/daemon princes/berzerkers through that screen in many cases. AM is built around units with 48"+ range, and keeping melta and CC away from their manticores and mortar teams is how they win. Without killing the conscripts, you will take punishing damage turn after turn until you shoot or chop your way through a sea of 3 ppm units, only to reach the tanks with 25% of your army left to face the remaining 75% of theirs.

And as I stated earlier, removing the commissar entirely would make them worse at screening than veterans because at ld4 basically any casualties will be 2x+1d6. Which means the conscripts would be effectively paying 6 points per wound.

That's complete overkill, if you think an effective cost of 6 points per conscript is balanced then you don't even know what balance looks like.

I think what GW did is entirely sufficient. Most of the proposals made here by the people not satisfied with it are nuke-it-from-orbit knee jerking, especially when they want that *in addition to* what was already done.