Conscript change is revealed on Warhammer community

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**Niiru**

I dont think it's templates that has caused the issue. It's just that they can be spammed for next to no cost, and the leaders they use are also cheap and spammable.

If they just put a limit on it, like "only 1 conscript squad per detachment" then they wouldn't need to make any other changes at all. Instead they seem determined to keep them cheap and spammable, and make loads of other minor alterations instead to make them more balanced... none of which (so far revealed) have really made any change to the problem. Because the main problem is that they are cheap and spammable.

The change to orders, and their unit size, is fine for the minor issues conscripts had of being too durable and shooty for their points cost. But they can still tarpit an enemy force for next to no cost at all.

In order for Eldar to do a similar job, for the same points cost, they would have half as many wounds and put out half as many shots. So for the same points, they would get half as much of a return, with zero benefits.

For Orks, to do a similar job, they can spend the same points.. and get grots. Grots. Weaker, more fragile, less armoured, slower. Same points.

Grots.

And Grots have a character, the runtherd, that is designed to stop them running away. But that kills D3 grots, instead of 1 like the commissar. So is worse in every way. And costs 26 POINTS for the privilege, only 4 less than the commissar.

Makes me so angry.

Templates changes are fine, no change needed. It won't actually affect the problem that needs fixing. Conscripts are fine as they are, as far as stats and abilities go. They just need to be limited to 1 per detachment, or something. Let people spam infantry squads instead.

**Des702**

Ok, then back to the 1 conscript squad per 1000pts. I liked that option too. with d3 removals from Commissars on top of the current nerfs without any points change. Does that seem fair? You could even do 1 per 1000 pts or part. So 1-1000= 1 Squad and 1001 to 2000=2.

Not that I make the rules any ways...

**Quickjager**

Niiru wrote:
Gamgee wrote:
Niiru wrote:
Des702 wrote:

Hopefully GW will take a nice Conservative approach to all units that need some re balancing.

I think the problem a lot of players have, and the reason why Xenos players especially are getting angry even though the codex isn't totally revealed yet, is that this does look so far like a very mild nerf. A conservative approach, that may in a few months time lead to another minor change in a chapter approved.

It annoys them because the Imperium is getting minor/conservative changes to units causing major problems, while Xenos players got huge blanket knee-jerk nerfs that made units totally unplayable, with little or no justification.

If GW only took a conservative approach to all armies, then it would be good. It's the best way to balance. But instead they listen to the imperium crybabies, nerf the naughty aliens into the ground, and then eventually give token non-changes to the imperium units that are clearly causing problems.

It's annoying, and disheartening.

Saying all that, I hope the knee-jerk nerfs were a reaction to the indexes, and so such problems will be fixed (especially for xenos) as their codices are released. Otherwise 8th edition is going to be the Horus Heresy - Big Humans vs Smaller Humans vs Angry Humans, all day long.

Thank you for this. 8th edition balancing is bigger hypocritical gak than 7th now. In 7th the newest was the strongest giving a weird level of balance out to everyone. Here it's imps all day every day and sometimes chaos too. This balance change is so one sided it's making me pack up and move on from 8th. Despite now being able to play I now don't want to touch 30k 2.0 with a ten foot pole. Guilliman is super overpowered and no one ever complains.

Imp players = wehraboos who destroyed company of heroes 1+2 balance. Never trust wehraboos for balancing. Most biased fans in existence.

Now, in fairness, we are being a little early on this. I know I just wrote that big rant, but it's in part because of the nature of this game having a slow rollout of rules. These things happen.

So far though, each codex released has solved problems for the army concerned. In particular the recent AdMech codex solved a few of their major issues, and seems to have given them a lot more opportunity for variety than they had before. Cawl+Bots will still be a major player, but that's more a problem with their limited variety of units than anything else. The codex definitly seemed to be the right moves in the right directions though.

The problem is that all the codex releases so far have been for the Imperium, in one form or another. Ok, sure, there was Chaos and Death Guard, but they're still basically space marines so many of the alterations were just copy/pasted. Admech was the first codex for an army a bit outside the usual mold, and it seemed to do a decent job (for a small codex subfaction type book, anyway). So far, GW have pretty much been doing what they promised - constant and relatively quick codex releases, along with updates and balancing where needed. Obviously so far, a lot of this "balance as needed" has been done in the codex releases, which is fair enough (though a bit slower than many would like).

The next few releases though will be the biggest signpost as to the kind of job GW plan to do with 8th as a whole.

- Imperial Guard codex needs to be done well, in order to fix the Imperial Soup problems that are the major issue right now.

- Eldar codex needs to be done well, in order to give xenos players hope for next year. (Actually I realise Tyranids is also coming out at around the same time, and personally I think that's equally important. Whichever comes first.)

- Chapter Approved needs to be well thought out, giving all players an idea of how GW plan to keep updating 8th on an ongoing basis.

Right now, it actually is too early to really judge. GW have been doing as they promised, and they haven't done a *bad* job at it. They just haven't done a great job at fixing the mistakes, or at least they've been slow with doing it.

Within 2 months though, we will know for sure, one way or another. Here's hoping!

ps. Only just realised Tyranids were queued up at a similar timeframe as the Eldar codex. Eldar, Tyranids and Orks are the holy trinity of Xenos armies (in my opinion), and all three really need to be done well. Currently, I think Orks need the most work, as they are currently completely broken as an army. Eldar need a lot of things fixed, but it's more tweaks than huge changes. And Tyranids I think are in the best place, relative to the other Xenos armies, so maybe only tweaks on some units? I am out of date on Tyranids though so I may be missing some big issues, I've only read through the codex not researched online. Still, GW doing 2 of those armies by the end of this year is a good sign, I wasn't expecting tyranids until next year.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Des702 wrote:
Wow the nazi card... please don't contribute if you cannot be respectful of other gamers.

Also it is not the imperial guard players that make the rules, we mostly agree on wanting balance.

We all want balance, I am sure your army at one point had some crazy powerful units that frustrated other gamers.

Who said Nazi? Is wehraboos some kind of slang for nazi? I just thought he was mis-spelling anime fan...

Not true, the Grey Knight codex failed to address the fact we are crippled by the basic design of 8th. We lack the CP in any measure to access the strategems that help our psychic phase. But that's for another thread.

**Gamgee**

Des702 wrote:
Ok maybe I jumped the gun a bit on that one. I just think labeling all of the imp players one way is a bad Idea on how to move a discussion forward.

From you Sig I assume you play Tau. Weren't you annoyed when everyone was out for their, and to a lesser extent your blood.

Do you really want guard to go the way of the Tau right now?

I honestly want to see the Tau get a proper codex that puts them in line with everyone else. Nothing worse than winning because of dex strength alone.

Conscripts can be great without overpowering. Honestly if they removed imperial soup I think that would solve so many problems.Just remove all special chapter/forgeworld/regiment rules along with Auras if you want to soup up major armies. Exceptions for Assassins and the like.

Like I said. Lets see the full extent of what GW can manage. So far they have done way better this edition than they have in the past 5 editions.

Truth be told after all the bs that I faced here I kind of do. I'm not really in the helpful mood right now. Nerf ig and imp soup. Sick of this meta already. Everything they got is op. Conscripts and ig stuff needs points increasecaccross the board. I wanted the other weak factions of 7th to be balanced and the Tau brought down a tad like they needed. Same with Eldar. The worst offenders were imperial death stars and space marines for pure opness. Oh look which faction is still doing great -_- .

Where was everyone when I needed help trying to convince the community Tau were not super op devils? Where are they now when the Tau need buffs? I've been battling for ever faction. And no one the Tau.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uDWMgk6gE2Q

**Torga_DW**

Gamgee wrote:
Des702 wrote:
Ok maybe I jumped the gun a bit on that one. I just think labeling all of the imp players one way is a bad Idea on how to move a discussion forward.

From you Sig I assume you play Tau. Weren't you annoyed when everyone was out for their, and to a lesser extent your blood.

Do you really want guard to go the way of the Tau right now?

I honestly want to see the Tau get a proper codex that puts them in line with everyone else. Nothing worse than winning because of dex strength alone.

Conscripts can be great without overpowering. Honestly if they removed imperial soup I think that would solve so many problems.Just remove all special chapter/forgeworld/regiment rules along with Auras if you want to soup up major armies. Exceptions for Assassins and the like.

Like I said. Lets see the full extent of what GW can manage. So far they have done way better this edition than they have in the past 5 editions.

Truth be told after all the bs that I faced here I kind of do. I'm not really in the helpful mood right now. Nerf ig and imp soup. Sick of this meta already. Everything they got is op. Conscripts and ig stuff needs points increasecaccross the board. I wanted the other weak factions of 7th to be balanced and the Tau brought down a tad like they needed. Same with Eldar. The worst offenders were imperial death stars and space marines for pure opness.

Where was everyone when I needed help trying to convince the community Tau were not super op devils? Where are they now when the Tau need buffs? I've been battling for ever faction. And no one the Tau.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uDWMgk6gE2Q

In all seriousness, i appreciate that. I really do. All i ever wanted when i played the game was a good balanced ruleset. And i'm sure a lot of other people feel the same way, even if they disagree over specific implementations. The thing is, its GW. "Things will be different this time" gets trotted out with every new version. Things are never different. Based on what the new general's handbook delivered, i think people have seriously over-estimated what 'balance' chapter approved will deliver in a year's time. This is the game, and has always been the game.

**hotsauceman1**

its easier to kill 30 than 40 or 50,
Orders now have less effect per model,
and you are not even sure if your order will go off.
Seriously, this is a god nerf, how can no one see this?

**BoomWolf**

TBH, things ARE better (except for us tau)

Far fewer "grossly op" outliers out there, and most factions and within them most units are at least a viable consideration

Not perfect, but better.

As for the conscript nerf, it's probably enough. As mentioned, brimes cost the same, are harder to kill, and are not nearly as troublesome.
It's the durability combined with the potential killiness, and thus guts the killiness hard

**Crazyterran**

Man, this thread had Gamgee heavily implying Imperial Soup players are Nazis (fans of the Nazi Wehrmacht, but not Nazis, srs!), people complaining about the nerf, even though we havent seen the whole book, and even if thats it it is pretty decent nerf - not the hammer that we usually get, but a cut in their effectiveness that can easily be built upon or changed with a FAQ/errata - all theyd have to do is errata the 4+ to no orders, for example.

Though, i cant wait to see a couple blob of catachan conscripts charging down the field to hit people...

**Purifier**

Gamgee wrote:
Guilliman is super overpowered and no one ever complains.

What alternate dimension are you living in, and welcome to ours. Every other thread complains about guilli. Absolutely justified, but saying nno one ever complains blows my mind. He has, besides conscripts, been the №1 complaint since index release...

**Torga_DW**

hotsauceman1 wrote:
its easier to kill 30 than 40 or 50,
Orders now have less effect per model,
and you are not even sure if your order will go off.
Seriously, this is a god nerf, how can no one see this?

My opinion, as someone who has been writing lists to see if he can get motivated to get back into the game?

I don't look at the conscripts for offensive power, or orders. I look at them for bubblewrap. Whether it's 1 unit of 50 with a commissar or 2 units of 25 with a commissar, conscripts are damn good bubblewrap. I made a list where i included a cheap IG brigade just for good bubblewrap for my main 'theme', and nothing has changed. So i need to double the amount of troop choices i take? Brigade doesn't care. And if i just stick with my 3 squads at reduced cap? I've saved 180 points which can go into my main 'theme' list.

A lot of other people have said this, and i'm inclined to agree. The commissar is what makes the conscripts. Orders are nice and all, but bubblewrap is the gift that keeps on giving.

**Nym**

hotsauceman1 wrote:
Seriously, this is a god nerf, how can no one see this?

No one sees this because it's not a "god nerf".

There is a fundamental flaw in 8th edition conception. The fact that detachment slots are basically unlimited (you can get 18 Troop slots) means that someone could bring 500 Conscripts to a game and basically just sit on objectives and win without throwing a single die (it takes 1687 bolter shots to kill them all. No army has this kind of firepower).

Unfortunately, these 500 Conscripts are not helpless. They fight back... And as it's been pointed out, Conscripts are just better than anything else in the game. Their 5+ save and moral immunity makes them incredibly resilient for their cost.

Warhammer needs a "population limit" like the one you find in RTS games. Without it, the game is basically unplayable.

**Des702**

Gamgee wrote:
Des702 wrote:
Ok maybe I jumped the gun a bit on that one. I just think labeling all of the imp players one way is a bad Idea on how to move a discussion forward.

From you Sig I assume you play Tau. Weren't you annoyed when everyone was out for their, and to a lesser extent your blood.

Do you really want guard to go the way of the Tau right now?

I honestly want to see the Tau get a proper codex that puts them in line with everyone else. Nothing worse than winning because of dex strength alone.

Conscripts can be great without overpowering. Honestly if they removed imperial soup I think that would solve so many problems.Just remove all special chapter/forgeworld/regiment rules along with Auras if you want to soup up major armies. Exceptions for Assassins and the like.

Like I said. Lets see the full extent of what GW can manage. So far they have done way better this edition than they have in the past 5 editions.

Truth be told after all the bs that I faced here I kind of do. I'm not really in the helpful mood right now. Nerf ig and imp soup. Sick of this meta already. Everything they got is op. Conscripts and ig stuff needs points increasecaccross the board. I wanted the other weak factions of 7th to be balanced and the Tau brought down a tad like they needed. Same with Eldar. The worst offenders were imperial death stars and space marines for pure opness. Oh look which faction is still doing great -_- .

Where was everyone when I needed help trying to convince the community Tau were not super op devils? Where are they now when the Tau need buffs? I've been battling for ever faction. And no one the Tau.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uDWMgk6gE2Q

@gamgee

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6qQSll7InQ

Well I have said my peace. This is the internet after all par for the course, being called something sympathetic to Nazis for having around 4 powerful units for ~6 months after having turd codex's for 4ish editions (around 10 years I think) by players who have had strong to OP codex's almost their entire existence (10ish years).

Edit for the last post: All theoreticals, why do we focus on the maybes of the you could paint 500 guys. Realistically if you actually face these guys don't play them, and if your in a tourney then you should expect cheese no matter what edition it just shifts around every tournament.

**Crazyterran**

As someone who plays Ultramarines, after being outshined by White Scars and Red Scorpions for the past forever, its kind of nice to be near the top of the marine heap with the Raven Guard.

Dont let Gamgee get you down, Des! Especially if you arent the Imperial Soup player, but an actual Guard player!

Though, Guard did have it good back in 5th, lets be fair, here...

**Des702**

That's true, if you played leaf blower, otherwise it wasn't too bad. My experience of that time might be a little tainted because my group fell apart around that time and I didn't get many games in till around 6th

Lets see 3rd was meh, 3.5 was fantastic, 4 was awful, 5 was pretty good and 6th which lasted until 8th was..... well it ... I mean they didn't nerf the wyvern and the Vendettas were op. So yes 5 was good.

**Purifier**

Yeah? Well 3rd through 6th was HORRIBLE for us admech players. We didn't have a single choice of unit that couldn't be done better by any other army. Worst army deal in the history of army deals. Sad.

**Des702**

Very true (I am also a Admech player)

**Nazrak**

It seems to me that whether or not this is sufficient to stop Conscripts being silly is going to depend on what else has happened in the related rules (Commissars, officers, points/power levels of everything). Without all the information available, it's probably a bit early to be getting too worked up over a partial reveal of the rules changes.

Personally, I'd like to see Summary Execution be changed so you can only apply it to one unit per turn. Allow everyone to benefit from the Commissar's Ld, but it seems a bit odd for him to be able to keep order by killing a single member of multiple different units all at once.

**Crazyterran**

Purifier wrote:
Yeah? Well 3rd through 6th was HORRIBLE for us admech players. We didn't have a single choice of unit that couldn't be done better by any other army. Worst army deal in the history of army deals. Sad.

You mean not existing? :p

**Purifier**

Crazyterran wrote:
Purifier wrote:
Yeah? Well 3rd through 6th was HORRIBLE for us admech players. We didn't have a single choice of unit that couldn't be done better by any other army. Worst army deal in the history of army deals. Sad.

You mean not existing? :p

Slander!

**GhostRecon**

Wow, even for a Conscript thread this one took a turn...

...guess I should be glad the suggestion I flagellate only drew a comment about 'shoddy lasguns' - could easily rename it to 'Fethton of lasgun shots' or 'Poorly aimed lasgun fire'. Was the rules suggestion that mattered, but bullet dodged apparently

Des702 wrote:
Good god can we wait to see the full rules before crying foul.
We dont know:

1) if commissars have been nerfed
2) if Commissars are more points
3) if officers have been nerfed
4) if officers have increased in points
5) if Conscripts are nerfed points wise/ force org wise

This. But as usual the warhammer community previews always send the interwebs/dakkites into a tizzy of hyperbolic speculation. GW could easily - and with options has shown a willingness to - use the FAQs to adjust further. Could well be if they see Conscripts are still a problem or worse they'll address in a FAQ or December's Chapter Approved.

As for complaints about Tau, Orks, and the like - it's pretty blatant you can't compare an Index army to one with a Codex. So how about we hold off on the ranting until we get a clearer sense of what's coming for armies without one? Chapter approved could tweak things heavily... it could bring changes to how Soup lists work... or it could do nothing and leave us waiting to see what the rest of the Codices bring. Just looking at how the Codices fill out an army with relics, stratagems, etc., makes clear the Indices are just a stop-gap band-aid to get us into 8th ed.

It's what? 5 months since 8th came out? And we've already gotten 5 Codices and are getting 3 more this month? Give it a little time. Could be worse, easily. Under GW's previous publishing speed we'd have what? A crap ton of badly ported/duct-taped previous edition Codices and maybe one Codex release for six months to a year?

As a Tau player, I'm willing to wait - we should start seeing our Codex early quarter next year if it isn't one of the unannounced entries for later this year. Even 'early quarter next year' is only 2-3 months away.

**Purifier**

GhostRecon wrote:

Des702 wrote:
Good god can we wait to see the full rules before crying foul.
We dont know:

1) if commissars have been nerfed
2) if Commissars are more points
3) if officers have been nerfed
4) if officers have increased in points
5) if Conscripts are nerfed points wise/ force org wise

This. But as usual the warhammer community previews always send the interwebs/dakkites into a tizzy of hyperbolic speculation.

No it doesn't. It sends it into speculation, which is completely intentional. That's what teasers are for. It's their whole point. Hyperbolic? Not really. Almost everyone in this thread has prefaced their points with "assuming X and Y are the same..."
Including yours. Your suggestion and speculation is no less "hyperbolic" than everyone else's. And then there's a handful of "OH MY GOD WHY ARE YOU SPECULATING!"-posts like this. Well, because this is a forum and the teasers are made specifically for us to speculate about it. Get off your high horses, White Knight brigade.

**Torga_DW**

Crazyterran wrote:
Man, this thread had Gamgee heavily implying Imperial Soup players are Nazis (fans of the Nazi Wehrmacht, but not Nazis, srs!), people complaining about the nerf, even though we havent seen the whole book, and even if thats it it is pretty decent nerf - not the hammer that we usually get, but a cut in their effectiveness that can easily be built upon or changed with a FAQ/errata - all theyd have to do is errata the 4+ to no orders, for example.

Though, i cant wait to see a couple blob of catachan conscripts charging down the field to hit people...

I missed this, but i feel it needs addressing. The nazis were bad news (although this is cultural, some people/cultures deny the holocaust existed). But not all germans (like the military) actually liked the nazis. They just followed orders, and got dragged off at 3am in the morning if they didn't. Comparisons to the german airforce don't equate to the nazis. The wehrmacht existed before the nazis, as did most of the symbols and regalia that are now associated with the nazis. As for the "we haven't seen the whole book yet", yeah yeah i've heard that one before.

**Crazyterran**

Torga_DW wrote:
Crazyterran wrote:
Man, this thread had Gamgee heavily implying Imperial Soup players are Nazis (fans of the Nazi Wehrmacht, but not Nazis, srs!), people complaining about the nerf, even though we havent seen the whole book, and even if thats it it is pretty decent nerf - not the hammer that we usually get, but a cut in their effectiveness that can easily be built upon or changed with a FAQ/errata - all theyd have to do is errata the 4+ to no orders, for example.

Though, i cant wait to see a couple blob of catachan conscripts charging down the field to hit people...

I missed this, but i feel it needs addressing. The nazis were bad news (although this is cultural, some people/cultures deny the holocaust existed). But not all germans (like the military) actually liked the nazis. They just followed orders, and got dragged off at 3am in the morning if they didn't. Comparisons to the german airforce don't equate to the nazis. The wehrmacht existed before the nazis, as did most of the symbols and regalia that are now associated with the nazis. As for the "we haven't seen the whole book yet", yeah yeah i've heard that one before.

Im perfectly aware, i typically play Germany if i get the choice in those types of games (mostly because someone has to play the bad guy, partially because the Uniforms are cool). The higher ups that were not Nazis are typically ones that are well respected even after the war, like Rommel. The majority were Nazis, and while yes, their symbols and choice of mustaches were common and popular pre-Nazism, they now stand for one of the most vile regimes in Human history.

In the context in it was used, Conscript/Imperial players were being called Nazis without saying the actual word. Dont lecture us when you are cherry picking the context to get on a soap box about how not all Germans were Nazis. Anyone whos taken a cursory glance at a history book would know that.

**GhostRecon**

Purifier wrote:
Well, because this is a forum and the teasers are made specifically for us to speculate about it. Get off your high horses, White Knight brigade.

You're right, a speculative discussion is one where labels like 'wehraboo' and 'white knight brigade' are used, the latter in response to comments pointing out the unknowns that are being overlooked/taken for granted/made into assumptions. How silly of me. I always thought a speculative discussion would involve identification of the facts, the unknowns, the assumptions, and that any assessments/suggestions would tacitly acknowledge these while addressing the poster's concerns. Perhaps something greater than 'omg nothing changes' to 'despite nobody actually saying they don't want Conscripts to be nerfed, but just disagree on what form and how deep those balance adjustments should be they're obviously just trying to keep IG OP' to 'IG players are wehraboos'. Thank you for the clarification.

**Purifier**

GhostRecon wrote:
Purifier wrote:
Well, because this is a forum and the teasers are made specifically for us to speculate about it. Get off your high horses, White Knight brigade.

You're right, a speculative discussion is one where labels like 'wehraboo' and 'white knight brigade' are used, the latter in response to comments pointing out the unknowns that are being overlooked/taken for granted/made into assumptions. How silly of me. I always thought a speculative discussion would involve identification of the facts, the unknowns, the assumptions, and that any assessments/suggestions would tacitly acknowledge these while addressing the poster's concerns. Perhaps something greater than 'omg nothing changes' to 'despite nobody actually saying they don't want Conscripts to be nerfed, but just disagree on what form and how deep those balance adjustments should be they're obviously just trying to keep IG OP' to 'IG players are wehraboos'. Thank you for the clarification.

Nope, that's not even close to what's happening here. People are OVER AND OVER clarifying that what they're saying is with certain assumptions and if for example Commissars are nerfed too, then it's a different story, and you are labeling that as "hyperbolic speculation" in an attempt to invalidate anything said and wave away any discussion, because clearly you're superior to this "hyperbolic speculation."

It's speculation, and no one is denying that. You start brushing it away as pointless chatter, why are you even in the discussion? What you're saying is the equivalent of "you are all probably wrong, maybe, we don't know, so why are you even talking instead of just shutting up?"

**Torga_DW**

Crazyterran wrote:
Torga_DW wrote:
Crazyterran wrote:
Man, this thread had Gamgee heavily implying Imperial Soup players are Nazis (fans of the Nazi Wehrmacht, but not Nazis, srs!), people complaining about the nerf, even though we havent seen the whole book, and even if thats it it is pretty decent nerf - not the hammer that we usually get, but a cut in their effectiveness that can easily be built upon or changed with a FAQ/errata - all theyd have to do is errata the 4+ to no orders, for example.

Though, i cant wait to see a couple blob of catachan conscripts charging down the field to hit people...

I missed this, but i feel it needs addressing. The nazis were bad news (although this is cultural, some people/cultures deny the holocaust existed). But not all germans (like the military) actually liked the nazis. They just followed orders, and got dragged off at 3am in the morning if they didn't. Comparisons to the german airforce don't equate to the nazis. The wehrmacht existed before the nazis, as did most of the symbols and regalia that are now associated with the nazis. As for the "we haven't seen the whole book yet", yeah yeah i've heard that one before.

Im perfectly aware, i typically play Germany if i get the choice in those types of games (mostly because someone has to play the bad guy, partially because the Uniforms are cool). The higher ups that were not Nazis are typically ones that are well respected even after the war, like Rommel. The majority were Nazis, and while yes, their symbols and choice of mustaches were common and popular pre-Nazism, they now stand for one of the most vile regimes in Human history.

In the context in it was used, Conscript/Imperial players were being called Nazis without saying the actual word. Dont lecture us when you are cherry picking the context to get on a soap box about how not all Germans were Nazis. Anyone whos taken a cursory glance at a history book would know that.

I'm no font of knowledge, but i know a little about nazis. Cursory glance at a history book is more than a lot of people do these days. Not intended as a lecture, but godwinning a thread involves specific mention of nazis. German military during nazi rule isn't the same thing. People are complex, you can have people who were fans of the wehrmact during nazi rule without being fans of the nazis themselves. Judge people on what they say, not what you imply. The context was simple - people assumed/implied nazis and that was never spoken.

**GhostRecon**

Purifier wrote:
GhostRecon wrote:
Purifier wrote:
Well, because this is a forum and the teasers are made specifically for us to speculate about it. Get off your high horses, White Knight brigade.

You're right, a speculative discussion is one where labels like 'wehraboo' and 'white knight brigade' are used, the latter in response to comments pointing out the unknowns that are being overlooked/taken for granted/made into assumptions. How silly of me. I always thought a speculative discussion would involve identification of the facts, the unknowns, the assumptions, and that any assessments/suggestions would tacitly acknowledge these while addressing the poster's concerns. Perhaps something greater than 'omg nothing changes' to 'despite nobody actually saying they don't want Conscripts to be nerfed, but just disagree on what form and how deep those balance adjustments should be they're obviously just trying to keep IG OP' to 'IG players are wehraboos'. Thank you for the clarification.

Nope, that's not even close to what's happening here. People are OVER AND OVER clarifying that what they're saying is with certain assumptions and if for example Commissars are nerfed too, then it's a different story, and you are labeling that as "hyperbolic speculation" in an attempt to invalidate anything said and wave away any discussion, because clearly you're superior to this "hyperbolic speculation."

It's speculation, and no one is denying that. You start brushing it away as pointless chatter, why are you even in the discussion? What you're saying is the equivalent of "you are all probably wrong, maybe, we don't know, so why are you even talking instead of just shutting up?"

Still generalizing what I'm saying... or even who I was addressing the initial comments I made that even sparked this tangent. There are absolutely posters who are participating in a helpful speculative discussion, yes, but that is often derailed by unhelpful 'hyperbolic speculation' and other unhelpful comments - which is what my 'white knight brigade' post was mostly aimed at addressing, and was mostly aimed at a handful of posters. Things such as:

Barely a nerf. Good to see favouritism alive and well. Strongest army gets stronger and a token nerf that does almost nothing. Okay then.

And my comments were to comments like this. To say, basically, 'I get it, but look at what more we need to have before we can truly talk balance.' Comparing Indicies to Codices, for example, and using them as the basis of balanced/unbalanced. Yes, they're what we have, but by now it is patently obvious just how much 'filling out' the Indicies need - and get - out of their Codex.

**Quickjager**

Crazyterran wrote:
Man, this thread had Gamgee heavily implying Imperial Soup players are Nazis (fans of the Nazi Wehrmacht, but not Nazis, srs!), people complaining about the nerf, even though we havent seen the whole book, and even if thats it it is pretty decent nerf - not the hammer that we usually get, but a cut in their effectiveness that can easily be built upon or changed with a FAQ/errata - all theyd have to do is errata the 4+ to no orders, for example.

Though, i cant wait to see a couple blob of catachan conscripts charging down the field to hit people...

Oh get over yourself, he wasn't calling anyone Nazi's he was comparing IG players to COH2 Germany faction Wehrmacht players; who are and remain notoriously toxic about the balance of their tanks. Heavily armored to the point that they frequently trade for 2 Allied Forces tanks, with shells bouncing off anything short of a rear armor shot. There was only one way to counter them for the longest time, which was literally win the game faster than they can get tanks out.

Anyone saying Gamgee called someone a Nazi is dumb and intentionally trying to dismiss him.

Nowadays the OP gak is ironically penal legions... or otherwise known as conscripts...

**Crazyterran**

Torga_DW wrote:
Crazyterran wrote:
Torga_DW wrote:
Crazyterran wrote:
Man, this thread had Gamgee heavily implying Imperial Soup players are Nazis (fans of the Nazi Wehrmacht, but not Nazis, srs!), people complaining about the nerf, even though we havent seen the whole book, and even if thats it it is pretty decent nerf - not the hammer that we usually get, but a cut in their effectiveness that can easily be built upon or changed with a FAQ/errata - all theyd have to do is errata the 4+ to no orders, for example.

Though, i cant wait to see a couple blob of catachan conscripts charging down the field to hit people...

I missed this, but i feel it needs addressing. The nazis were bad news (although this is cultural, some people/cultures deny the holocaust existed). But not all germans (like the military) actually liked the nazis. They just followed orders, and got dragged off at 3am in the morning if they didn't. Comparisons to the german airforce don't equate to the nazis. The wehrmacht existed before the nazis, as did most of the symbols and regalia that are now associated with the nazis. As for the "we haven't seen the whole book yet", yeah yeah i've heard that one before.

Im perfectly aware, i typically play Germany if i get the choice in those types of games (mostly because someone has to play the bad guy, partially because the Uniforms are cool). The higher ups that were not Nazis are typically ones that are well respected even after the war, like Rommel. The majority were Nazis, and while yes, their symbols and choice of mustaches were common and popular pre-Nazism, they now stand for one of the most vile regimes in Human history.

In the context in it was used, Conscript/Imperial players were being called Nazis without saying the actual word. Dont lecture us when you are cherry picking the context to get on a soap box about how not all Germans were Nazis. Anyone whos taken a cursory glance at a history book would know that.

I'm no font of knowledge, but i know a little about nazis. Cursory glance at a history book is more than a lot of people do these days. Not intended as a lecture, but godwinning a thread involves specific mention of nazis. German military during nazi rule isn't the same thing. People are complex, you can have people who were fans of the wehrmact during nazi rule without being fans of the nazis themselves. Judge people on what they say, not what you imply. The context was simple - people assumed/implied nazis and that was never spoken.

He called people Wehraboos, where the definition for Urban dictionary states that Wehraboos specifically mean Nazi Era Wehrmacht fans, and the games he specifically used as an example are the Nazi era Wehrmacht. Considering theres a million other examples he could have used, including fans groups for this very same game (cheese, waac players, timmies, to name a few) the fact he picked wehraboos means it's pretty clear what he was going for.

Quickjager wrote:
Crazyterran wrote:
Man, this thread had Gamgee heavily implying Imperial Soup players are Nazis (fans of the Nazi Wehrmacht, but not Nazis, srs!), people complaining about the nerf, even though we havent seen the whole book, and even if thats it it is pretty decent nerf - not the hammer that we usually get, but a cut in their effectiveness that can easily be built upon or changed with a FAQ/errata - all theyd have to do is errata the 4+ to no orders, for example.

Though, i cant wait to see a couple blob of catachan conscripts charging down the field to hit people...

Oh get over yourself, he wasn't calling anyone Nazi's he was comparing IG players to COH2 Germany faction Wehrmacht players; who are and remain notoriously toxic about the balance of their tanks. Heavily armored to the point that they frequently trade for 2 Allied Forces tanks, with shells bouncing off anything short of a rear armor shot. There was only one way to counter them for the longest time, which was literally win the game faster than they can get tanks out.

Anyone saying Gamgee called someone a Nazi is dumb and intentionally trying to dismiss him.

Nowadays the OP gak is ironically penal legions... or otherwise known as conscripts...

I don't play guard, or Imperial soup, so what do i have to get over?

**Torga_DW**

GhostRecon wrote:
And my comments were to comments like this. To say, basically, 'I get it, but look at what more we need to have before we can truly talk balance.' Comparing Indicies to Codices, for example, and using them as the basis of balanced/unbalanced. Yes, they're what we have, but by now it is patently obvious just how much 'filling out' the Indicies need - and get - out of their Codex.

I agree, more info is needed. But the guard started strong and from what we know look to have gotten stronger. The sample size is small, but still quantifiable. Compare guard to grey knights. The positive thing to come out of this, is it's looking like the guard internal balance seems good. Almost feels like a ward dex. We don't know what the future holds for the remaining dexes, so all we have to look upon is past history..... and it isn't good. The history of 40k is flooded with 'but we have to wait and see'. And that's true to some extent, all we can do at this point is look upon past history and the leaks we've received so far.