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2017/09/29 13:53:33
Subject: Re:Conscript change is revealed on Warhammer community
Galas wrote: We need youtube memes. The hearthstone community can live with the eras of some totally toxic OP deck because they take it with a laugh. So, who wants to do some Conscripts memes? Maybe that way people will be less angry, all the time.
Spoiler:
As a Hearthstone player; the unbalanced things in Hearthstone are a drop of unbalance compared to the unbalances in 40k. It doesn't even begin to compare.
2017/09/29 13:54:35
Subject: Conscript change is revealed on Warhammer community
You and I have different definitions of satisfactory.
Grots aren't very good, and also are a screening unit.
Gaunts are also not very good, and also are a screening unit.
Kroot aren't good at all, and also are a screening unit.
Every other screening unit being gakky does not mean conscripts should be gakky, it means they should come up.
I don't think this really engages with my post. My point was that you don't actually need durable blob units to screen against assault deep strikers. You just need something, because you've accomplished your goal if the deep strikers either don't come in or come in way more than 9" from the stuff they actually want to charge. I specifically mentioned Cyberwolves and Elysians. For example, glancing over their index, it looks to me like the best Tau deep strike screener is Kroot Hounds.
2017/09/29 13:56:49
Subject: Conscript change is revealed on Warhammer community
You and I have different definitions of satisfactory.
Grots aren't very good, and also are a screening unit.
Gaunts are also not very good, and also are a screening unit.
Kroot aren't good at all, and also are a screening unit.
Every other screening unit being gakky does not mean conscripts should be gakky, it means they should come up.
I don't think this really engages with my post. My point was that you don't actually need durable blob units to screen against assault deep strikers. You just need something, because you've accomplished your goal if the deep strikers either don't come in or come in way more than 9" from the stuff they actually want to charge. I specifically mentioned Cyberwolves and Elysians. For example, glancing over their index, it looks to me like the best Tau deep strike screener is Kroot Hounds.
Unit wants his tanks to be perfectly safe from any and all full charge armies for at least 4 rounds without having to actually think about strategy, doing nothing but setting up massive walls. There is a huge difference between what he considers balanced and what balance is.
2017/09/29 13:58:46
Subject: Conscript change is revealed on Warhammer community
You and I have different definitions of satisfactory.
Grots aren't very good, and also are a screening unit.
Gaunts are also not very good, and also are a screening unit.
Kroot aren't good at all, and also are a screening unit.
Every other screening unit being gakky does not mean conscripts should be gakky, it means they should come up.
I don't think this really engages with my post. My point was that you don't actually need durable blob units to screen against assault deep strikers. You just need something, because you've accomplished your goal if the deep strikers either don't come in or come in way more than 9" from the stuff they actually want to charge. I specifically mentioned Cyberwolves and Elysians. For example, glancing over their index, it looks to me like the best Tau deep strike screener is Kroot Hounds.
I don't... think that's true though.
Maybe my army was a bad example, with the 12 acolytes and 2 primaris psykers, but lets use marines as an example. I could see 1000 points spend on shooting units, and 1000 points spent on deepstriking units.
If your screening units aren't durable for their points (e.g. cyberwolves) then they're just going to get evaporated before the deep-strikers can come down. You need high durability per point to survive to turn 3 in the current 8th edition environment.
If your screening units are just "more deep-strikers" then you've put yourself on the back foot by having 50% of your reserves drop in your own DZ, or close to it. At worst, you fail to estimate when your opponent brings their own deepstrikers in and either wait too long or get shot off the board, and at best your best offensive units (e.g. Elysians with plasmaguns) lost a lot of their punch not deepstriking 9" away from the enemy's own vulnerable units.
2017/09/29 14:00:34
Subject: Conscript change is revealed on Warhammer community
You and I have different definitions of satisfactory.
Grots aren't very good, and also are a screening unit.
Gaunts are also not very good, and also are a screening unit.
Kroot aren't good at all, and also are a screening unit.
Every other screening unit being gakky does not mean conscripts should be gakky, it means they should come up.
I don't think this really engages with my post. My point was that you don't actually need durable blob units to screen against assault deep strikers. You just need something, because you've accomplished your goal if the deep strikers either don't come in or come in way more than 9" from the stuff they actually want to charge. I specifically mentioned Cyberwolves and Elysians. For example, glancing over their index, it looks to me like the best Tau deep strike screener is Kroot Hounds.
I don't... think that's true though.
Maybe my army was a bad example, with the 12 acolytes and 2 primaris psykers, but lets use marines as an example. I could see 1000 points spend on shooting units, and 1000 points spent on deepstriking units.
If your screening units aren't durable for their points (e.g. cyberwolves) then they're just going to get evaporated before the deep-strikers can come down. You need high durability per point to survive to turn 3 in the current 8th edition environment.
If your screening units are just "more deep-strikers" then you've put yourself on the back foot by having 50% of your reserves drop in your own DZ, or close to it. At worst, you fail to estimate when your opponent brings their own deepstrikers in and either wait too long or get shot off the board, and at best your best offensive units (e.g. Elysians with plasmaguns) lost a lot of their punch not deepstriking 9" away from the enemy's own vulnerable units.
God forbid making the wrong tactical choice should punish you.
2017/09/29 14:01:28
Subject: Conscript change is revealed on Warhammer community
You and I have different definitions of satisfactory.
Grots aren't very good, and also are a screening unit.
Gaunts are also not very good, and also are a screening unit.
Kroot aren't good at all, and also are a screening unit.
Every other screening unit being gakky does not mean conscripts should be gakky, it means they should come up.
I don't think this really engages with my post. My point was that you don't actually need durable blob units to screen against assault deep strikers. You just need something, because you've accomplished your goal if the deep strikers either don't come in or come in way more than 9" from the stuff they actually want to charge. I specifically mentioned Cyberwolves and Elysians. For example, glancing over their index, it looks to me like the best Tau deep strike screener is Kroot Hounds.
I don't... think that's true though.
Maybe my army was a bad example, with the 12 acolytes and 2 primaris psykers, but lets use marines as an example. I could see 1000 points spend on shooting units, and 1000 points spent on deepstriking units.
If your screening units aren't durable for their points (e.g. cyberwolves) then they're just going to get evaporated before the deep-strikers can come down. You need high durability per point to survive to turn 3 in the current 8th edition environment.
If your screening units are just "more deep-strikers" then you've put yourself on the back foot by having 50% of your reserves drop in your own DZ, or close to it. At worst, you fail to estimate when your opponent brings their own deepstrikers in and either wait too long or get shot off the board, and at best your best offensive units (e.g. Elysians with plasmaguns) lost a lot of their punch not deepstriking 9" away from the enemy's own vulnerable units.
God forbid making the wrong tactical choice should punish you.
Not sure how "playing a game of chicken with your deepstrikers" is really 'tactical' or 'fun' but sure.
2017/09/29 14:01:35
Subject: Conscript change is revealed on Warhammer community
These are staples of 8th edition armies which conscripts hard-counter because they have to otherwise the guard get stomped.
You're showing a fundamental misunderstanding of why conscripts are op, and if they were what you see them as (in an incredibly biased scope) then they would have been perfectly balanced, and there would be no problem with them.
If what Conscripts did was protect against first turn charges, then they'd be a measured defence against a strong strategy. What they actually do is negate first turn charges, and then by bodycount and immunity to morale, mire any unit down for another 2 rounds. OP isn't what you're describing. That would have been perfect. OP is when there are so many bodies in conscript heavy armies that you can't get through them in several rounds, because there is no dedicated weapon that is good at taking down multiple models.
Every weapon that used to be good at it, now does several damage instead, making it better at taking down multi wound models and worse at taking down single wound models.
There is not A SINGLE WEAPON IN THE GAME that scales well into taking care of mass-body spam. Explosions, flamers etc etc all do an amount of wounds on the unit which lends itself to terrible scalability.And that is the problem.
And there is literally no downside, only upsides to bringing MORE bodies. What's the side-effect of bringing massive amounts of conscripts? Well, that you will be able to take 3 battalions without even trying and that gives you 9CP. Oh, how terrible.
Yes but how good of a screen would they be if you blew through them in 1 turn, then deepstruck on turn 2 and /then/ alpha (or beta) struck the IG army?
The problem is that these deep strike assaulters who are 100% accurate and 100% capable and 100% reliable the turn they arrive can even choose which turn to arrive on so long as it doesn't pass turn 3. So you essentially have to have the screen last through Turn 3, or you'll end up having people deep-strike and assault you with no repercussions... again.
This assumes that during that time you cannot cripple your opponents on table force (half his units), which apparently are enough to blow away your screen turn 1. You also need to remember that on each of those turns they only have at best about a 50% chance of getting the charge.
Who cares if the table force is "crippled", all they have to do is survive. You could have 1 acolyte left hiding out of LOS inside a building and be fine.
And yes, they do only have a 50% chance of getting the charge. Without any re-rolls or help beyond a base stratagem. Which a lot of armies have, and more will get as the codices drop. So only 4 out of their 8 deepstrikers will make it and you only lose 4 tanks. Woo, balance.
Can you imagine what armies would look like if conscripts didn't exist?
I can totally see a competitive army of 12 acolytes with 2 Primaris Psykers as the on-table component of an army (which takes up 2 Vanguard detachments) and then 14 heavy deepstriking assault units with the other 1825 or so points.
The list you state on the bottom, loses to IG turn 1 as those 14 models all get killed by shooting. SO if the conscripts can last one turn as a screen against a turn 1 charge it is fine. If they don't bring in models on turn 1, IG wins the game.
As for the 50%, no that is for units with re-rolls base, a 9" charge. Without any re-roll a 9" charge is a 27% chance. So only 2.16 without re-rolls, using the stratagem means maybe you get 3. The stratagem can be used for a single unit. With only the stratagem there are 4 rolls that auto fail as you need at least one 3 to get to 9. Using the stratagem for one unit gets that unit to ~50% chance to charge, if you use it for every failed charge that can possibly make 9" (people often won't use it if they roll nothing higher than a 3 on either dice). Straight re-rolls are better, and work for all units, but not too many deepstrike assault units have this rule. Those are the units that I refer to though as basically having a 50% chance to charge, now some things like Warptime can assure a single unit the ability to assault from deepstrike. From someone who has deepstruck assaulted many times, it is not reliable, and it is hard against good play to hit multiple units unless your opponent has poor positioning. Even without a ton of chaff.
2017/09/29 14:05:57
Subject: Re:Conscript change is revealed on Warhammer community
Galas wrote: We need youtube memes. The hearthstone community can live with the eras of some totally toxic OP deck because they take it with a laugh. So, who wants to do some Conscripts memes? Maybe that way people will be less angry, all the time.
Spoiler:
As a Hearthstone player; the unbalanced things in Hearthstone are a drop of unbalance compared to the unbalances in 40k. It doesn't even begin to compare.
I don't know what to say. Jade Druid is Jade Druid, and better lets not talk about Undertaker Hunter... the difference is the time they take to fix this kind of problems.
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
2017/09/29 14:06:18
Subject: Conscript change is revealed on Warhammer community
Not to seem like too much of a jerk, but complaining about Conscripts is like crying at the river. No matter what you say it keeps moving and will not stay the same very long. Eventually, a new Codex, a new model with cool rules, or some change to game mechanics will make those Imperial Soup lists a lot less powerful.
I'm glad GW did something about Conscripts and we will see how having orders fail half the time works out. Some people have pointed Command Point rerolls can impact this, which is true once per turn for a single unit. For the most part, Conscripts will be squishy half the time, and this is really good considering some of the games I have played.
I'm not saying this is a great nerf. But it's one of those nerfs that creates an opportunity to counter something I run into in games. When I do play against Imperium Soup lists, Gulliman is always sneaking up behind Conscripts. Now I have at least some sort of chance to actually shoot at him before he reaches my army, and I think that's the best this change represents. It's the river flowing, it doesn't care about my opinion, I'm just grateful it's not where it was yesterday.
Would it be okay if we moved on to complaining about Doctrines, Veterans, Scions and Earthshaker rounds now? Honestly, those things concern me more than screening units. Seems incredibly unfair those Doctrines apply to things like Baneblades.
I don't enjoy doing this, but I think you're really making up your own scenario here. I don't see how the changes to making orders work only a 4+ creates "an opportunity to counter". I'm curious about what you are referring to when you say "Gulliman is always sneaking up behind conscripts. Now I at least have some sort of a chance to actually shoot at him before he reaches my army".
The changes that are being made only push the Imperium Soup armies more, since they're the armies that make the least use out of orders in the first place.
2017/09/29 14:06:23
Subject: Conscript change is revealed on Warhammer community
These are staples of 8th edition armies which conscripts hard-counter because they have to otherwise the guard get stomped.
You're showing a fundamental misunderstanding of why conscripts are op, and if they were what you see them as (in an incredibly biased scope) then they would have been perfectly balanced, and there would be no problem with them.
If what Conscripts did was protect against first turn charges, then they'd be a measured defence against a strong strategy. What they actually do is negate first turn charges, and then by bodycount and immunity to morale, mire any unit down for another 2 rounds. OP isn't what you're describing. That would have been perfect. OP is when there are so many bodies in conscript heavy armies that you can't get through them in several rounds, because there is no dedicated weapon that is good at taking down multiple models.
Every weapon that used to be good at it, now does several damage instead, making it better at taking down multi wound models and worse at taking down single wound models.
There is not A SINGLE WEAPON IN THE GAME that scales well into taking care of mass-body spam. Explosions, flamers etc etc all do an amount of wounds on the unit which lends itself to terrible scalability.And that is the problem.
And there is literally no downside, only upsides to bringing MORE bodies. What's the side-effect of bringing massive amounts of conscripts? Well, that you will be able to take 3 battalions without even trying and that gives you 9CP. Oh, how terrible.
Yes but how good of a screen would they be if you blew through them in 1 turn, then deepstruck on turn 2 and /then/ alpha (or beta) struck the IG army?
The problem is that these deep strike assaulters who are 100% accurate and 100% capable and 100% reliable the turn they arrive can even choose which turn to arrive on so long as it doesn't pass turn 3. So you essentially have to have the screen last through Turn 3, or you'll end up having people deep-strike and assault you with no repercussions... again.
This assumes that during that time you cannot cripple your opponents on table force (half his units), which apparently are enough to blow away your screen turn 1. You also need to remember that on each of those turns they only have at best about a 50% chance of getting the charge.
Who cares if the table force is "crippled", all they have to do is survive. You could have 1 acolyte left hiding out of LOS inside a building and be fine.
And yes, they do only have a 50% chance of getting the charge. Without any re-rolls or help beyond a base stratagem. Which a lot of armies have, and more will get as the codices drop. So only 4 out of their 8 deepstrikers will make it and you only lose 4 tanks. Woo, balance.
Can you imagine what armies would look like if conscripts didn't exist?
I can totally see a competitive army of 12 acolytes with 2 Primaris Psykers as the on-table component of an army (which takes up 2 Vanguard detachments) and then 14 heavy deepstriking assault units with the other 1825 or so points.
The list you state on the bottom, loses to IG turn 1 as those 14 models all get killed by shooting. SO if the conscripts can last one turn as a screen against a turn 1 charge it is fine. If they don't bring in models on turn 1, IG wins the game.
As for the 50%, no that is for units with re-rolls base, a 9" charge. Without any re-roll a 9" charge is a 27% chance. So only 2.16 without re-rolls, using the stratagem means maybe you get 3. The stratagem can be used for a single unit. With only the stratagem there are 4 rolls that auto fail as you need at least one 3 to get to 9. Using the stratagem for one unit gets that unit to ~50% chance to charge, if you use it for every failed charge that can possibly make 9" (people often won't use it if they roll nothing higher than a 3 on either dice). Straight re-rolls are better, and work for all units, but not too many deepstrike assault units have this rule. Those are the units that I refer to though as basically having a 50% chance to charge, now some things like Warptime can assure a single unit the ability to assault from deepstrike. From someone who has deepstruck assaulted many times, it is not reliable, and it is hard against good play to hit multiple units unless your opponent has poor positioning. Even without a ton of chaff.
Your first point is absolutely false. Not every IG army brings artillery; unless of course you want to force them to.
Your second point... I get it. I still think the fact that they have a 50/50 of getting into assault without having been shot at at all ever (except for phhhbbbt overwatch) is ridiculously good and should not be brushed off as "oh, it's only 50/50."
It's like saying "I when the game on a 4+! What? It's only 50/50!"
2017/09/29 14:07:48
Subject: Conscript change is revealed on Warhammer community
You and I have different definitions of satisfactory.
Grots aren't very good, and also are a screening unit.
Gaunts are also not very good, and also are a screening unit.
Kroot aren't good at all, and also are a screening unit.
Every other screening unit being gakky does not mean conscripts should be gakky, it means they should come up.
I don't think this really engages with my post. My point was that you don't actually need durable blob units to screen against assault deep strikers. You just need something, because you've accomplished your goal if the deep strikers either don't come in or come in way more than 9" from the stuff they actually want to charge. I specifically mentioned Cyberwolves and Elysians. For example, glancing over their index, it looks to me like the best Tau deep strike screener is Kroot Hounds.
I don't... think that's true though.
Maybe my army was a bad example, with the 12 acolytes and 2 primaris psykers, but lets use marines as an example. I could see 1000 points spend on shooting units, and 1000 points spent on deepstriking units.
If your screening units aren't durable for their points (e.g. cyberwolves) then they're just going to get evaporated before the deep-strikers can come down. You need high durability per point to survive to turn 3 in the current 8th edition environment.
If your screening units are just "more deep-strikers" then you've put yourself on the back foot by having 50% of your reserves drop in your own DZ, or close to it. At worst, you fail to estimate when your opponent brings their own deepstrikers in and either wait too long or get shot off the board, and at best your best offensive units (e.g. Elysians with plasmaguns) lost a lot of their punch not deepstriking 9" away from the enemy's own vulnerable units.
If your 2000 point army cannot cripple 1000 points of your opponents army within 3 turns while still being able to deny area it seems like an issue with the army build. That said, part of this is a problem with mission design. If missions require units on the table to score points, it isn't really viable to keep 1000 points of army off the table for 3 turns.
2017/09/29 14:11:16
Subject: Conscript change is revealed on Warhammer community
It's like saying "I when the game on a 4+! What? It's only 50/50!"
You're literally comparing getting to do anything at all with a melee based army with winning the game. Your statement is, in no unclear terms, that you want to be able to completely deny an assault army to ever lay a hand on you, or you consider yourself as having lost the game.
You seem to think you're the hero in a single player game and your opponents are chaf you have to get through and should be able to do so with minimal effort. Your idea of balance is a joke.
I don't know what to say. Jade Druid is Jade Druid, and better lets not talk about Undertaker Hunter... the difference is the time they take to fix this kind of problems.
Another difference is that in 40k, you would be able to make a deck with 50% or more Undertakers.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/09/29 14:13:18
2017/09/29 14:12:35
Subject: Conscript change is revealed on Warhammer community
Maybe my army was a bad example, with the 12 acolytes and 2 primaris psykers, but lets use marines as an example. I could see 1000 points spend on shooting units, and 1000 points spent on deepstriking units.
If your screening units aren't durable for their points (e.g. cyberwolves) then they're just going to get evaporated before the deep-strikers can come down. You need high durability per point to survive to turn 3 in the current 8th edition environment.
If your screening units are just "more deep-strikers" then you've put yourself on the back foot by having 50% of your reserves drop in your own DZ, or close to it. At worst, you fail to estimate when your opponent brings their own deepstrikers in and either wait too long or get shot off the board, and at best your best offensive units (e.g. Elysians with plasmaguns) lost a lot of their punch not deepstriking 9" away from the enemy's own vulnerable units.
You're not putting all of the cyberwolves out front turn 1, though. You're hiding some of them behind a Russ or whatever. If they kill the two that you've got out front, you take two more from behind the Russ and advance them 10 + d6". Sure, there are deep strike oriented armies that beat this. But actually this is incredibly effective against lots of assault deep strike compositions for a tiny number of points -- obviously you can't expect to be invulnerable to deep strikers for this kind of investment.
I don't understand what you're trying to say about defensive deep strikers. Say I have some Elysian sniper teams in reserve. These are dirt cheap, so I'm not giving up a whole lot of firepower by keeping them off the board. Certainly I'm way ahead on board if my opponent has 1000 points in assault deep strikers. Yeah, these count against what I'm allowed to put in reserve, but I thought we were assuming I had more of a gunline army. If my turn 1 screen gets killed, then on turn 2 I deep strike a sniper team in front of my other stuff. If they get killed, then on turn 3 I deep strike another sniper team. I don't have to guess when my opponent's bringing things on; the whole point is to make sure that he never has a good opportunity to bring things on.
2017/09/29 14:14:43
Subject: Conscript change is revealed on Warhammer community
These are staples of 8th edition armies which conscripts hard-counter because they have to otherwise the guard get stomped.
You're showing a fundamental misunderstanding of why conscripts are op, and if they were what you see them as (in an incredibly biased scope) then they would have been perfectly balanced, and there would be no problem with them.
If what Conscripts did was protect against first turn charges, then they'd be a measured defence against a strong strategy. What they actually do is negate first turn charges, and then by bodycount and immunity to morale, mire any unit down for another 2 rounds. OP isn't what you're describing. That would have been perfect. OP is when there are so many bodies in conscript heavy armies that you can't get through them in several rounds, because there is no dedicated weapon that is good at taking down multiple models.
Every weapon that used to be good at it, now does several damage instead, making it better at taking down multi wound models and worse at taking down single wound models.
There is not A SINGLE WEAPON IN THE GAME that scales well into taking care of mass-body spam. Explosions, flamers etc etc all do an amount of wounds on the unit which lends itself to terrible scalability.And that is the problem.
And there is literally no downside, only upsides to bringing MORE bodies. What's the side-effect of bringing massive amounts of conscripts? Well, that you will be able to take 3 battalions without even trying and that gives you 9CP. Oh, how terrible.
Yes but how good of a screen would they be if you blew through them in 1 turn, then deepstruck on turn 2 and /then/ alpha (or beta) struck the IG army?
The problem is that these deep strike assaulters who are 100% accurate and 100% capable and 100% reliable the turn they arrive can even choose which turn to arrive on so long as it doesn't pass turn 3. So you essentially have to have the screen last through Turn 3, or you'll end up having people deep-strike and assault you with no repercussions... again.
This assumes that during that time you cannot cripple your opponents on table force (half his units), which apparently are enough to blow away your screen turn 1. You also need to remember that on each of those turns they only have at best about a 50% chance of getting the charge.
Who cares if the table force is "crippled", all they have to do is survive. You could have 1 acolyte left hiding out of LOS inside a building and be fine.
And yes, they do only have a 50% chance of getting the charge. Without any re-rolls or help beyond a base stratagem. Which a lot of armies have, and more will get as the codices drop. So only 4 out of their 8 deepstrikers will make it and you only lose 4 tanks. Woo, balance.
Can you imagine what armies would look like if conscripts didn't exist?
I can totally see a competitive army of 12 acolytes with 2 Primaris Psykers as the on-table component of an army (which takes up 2 Vanguard detachments) and then 14 heavy deepstriking assault units with the other 1825 or so points.
The list you state on the bottom, loses to IG turn 1 as those 14 models all get killed by shooting. SO if the conscripts can last one turn as a screen against a turn 1 charge it is fine. If they don't bring in models on turn 1, IG wins the game.
As for the 50%, no that is for units with re-rolls base, a 9" charge. Without any re-roll a 9" charge is a 27% chance. So only 2.16 without re-rolls, using the stratagem means maybe you get 3. The stratagem can be used for a single unit. With only the stratagem there are 4 rolls that auto fail as you need at least one 3 to get to 9. Using the stratagem for one unit gets that unit to ~50% chance to charge, if you use it for every failed charge that can possibly make 9" (people often won't use it if they roll nothing higher than a 3 on either dice). Straight re-rolls are better, and work for all units, but not too many deepstrike assault units have this rule. Those are the units that I refer to though as basically having a 50% chance to charge, now some things like Warptime can assure a single unit the ability to assault from deepstrike. From someone who has deepstruck assaulted many times, it is not reliable, and it is hard against good play to hit multiple units unless your opponent has poor positioning. Even without a ton of chaff.
Your first point is absolutely false. Not every IG army brings artillery; unless of course you want to force them to.
Your second point... I get it. I still think the fact that they have a 50/50 of getting into assault without having been shot at at all ever (except for phhhbbbt overwatch) is ridiculously good and should not be brushed off as "oh, it's only 50/50."
It's like saying "I when the game on a 4+! What? It's only 50/50!"
Sure not every IG army brings artillery, some bring their own deepstrikers, which could kill these units. IF we are looking at a competitive game, then yes those 14 models would be tabled every game, because competitive IG (the only thing we are talking about because it is the only IG abusing conscripts to the level where nothing can get to their units for 3 turns) will have a way to deal with them.
I also think it is ridiculous to think that every unit needs to be able to be killed prior to doing damage. Why is that true for assault (50-50 is basically for a single unit in any army) and not for shooting. There are plenty of shooting units that get to act at full capacity without ever taking damage. The idea that you need to be able to cripple any and all assault units before they can possibly touch anything of value is not great for the game.
Like I said there are not many great assault armies that can deepstrike a ton of good assault units, and get re-roll charges for all those units. I struggle to think of any. The worst offenders are honestly CSM with infiltration strategems, and warptime.
2017/09/29 14:19:03
Subject: Conscript change is revealed on Warhammer community
So the reason assaulters need to be able to be shot before they make it is there is no real way to avoid assault. You can avoid shooting (except against artillery) by being out of Line of Sight. Being shot does not necessarily cripple an assault unit either, while being in an assault absolutely cripples a shooting unit.
Think about it this way:
If you get B2B with my Leman Russ, it does nothing except run away.
Flip it on its head:
I shoot your assault unit, and the only move it can make is away from me, it cannot shoot, and it cannot charge.
That's what it feels like to be a shooting unit hit by an assaulting unit. The army in question just doesn't /do/ anything.
2017/09/29 14:23:34
Subject: Conscript change is revealed on Warhammer community
Purifier wrote: This doesn't really fix them at all, if it's the only change. The reduced unit size is ok, I suppose, but then you just get two units instead and cluster them around the Commissar.
The problem was always the Commissar, so I guess we'll see if he is changed at all. My guess is no.
They're still as hard to remove as before, but they pose less of a threat.
I think the intention is to let them be cheap effective screening units, which can't do much more.
How in the heck is a commissar surrounded by scrubs hard to remove? There are hundreds of ways to deal with those blowhards.
2017/09/29 14:24:38
Subject: Conscript change is revealed on Warhammer community
So you want to force us to rely on a gimmick of rotating deep-strikers that leaves us helpless against bikes, transports, jump infantry, and basically any other source of 12"+ movement?
The idea that a screen should be wiped in a single turn by equal points is absurd on its face. A "screen" that could be removed so easily would be the second most fragile model in the game (behind the lascannon HWT, champion of fragility by virtue of being 20 points of gun sitting on 6 points of wounds).
2017/09/29 14:27:47
Subject: Conscript change is revealed on Warhammer community
So the reason assaulters need to be able to be shot before they make it is there is no real way to avoid assault. You can avoid shooting (except against artillery) by being out of Line of Sight. Being shot does not necessarily cripple an assault unit either, while being in an assault absolutely cripples a shooting unit.
Think about it this way:
If you get B2B with my Leman Russ, it does nothing except run away.
Flip it on its head:
I shoot your assault unit, and the only move it can make is away from me, it cannot shoot, and it cannot charge.
That's what it feels like to be a shooting unit hit by an assaulting unit. The army in question just doesn't /do/ anything.
Except the difference is your shooting units instead just kill the assaulting unit. SO would you prefer the russ just died when it was assaulted? Further with assault units it is incredibly hard to avoid shooting and get into the assault. You can also avoid assault by being out of range, much more easily than shooting. Further the shooting unit should it survive gets to attack in close combat (however bad it may be) and do damage that an assault unit does not get to do in shooting. I look at it this way. With a shooting unit you basically get to operate at full capacity for every turn you aren't assaulted. Assault units only get to operate at full capacity in turns you are assaulted. IF fall back did not prevent shooting, it would be way too powerful as it is a lot of risk and work to get into the assault in the first place. You seem to be under the impression that deepstrike assaults = auto turn off gunline, when IME that is anything but true. Most of these types of units are expensive, or if not fragile (die to overwatch fragile). I also don't want to see screens gone. I just don't want them to be able to survive for 3 turns at the cost of only 200-300 points if getting focused down by an entire army.
2017/09/29 14:28:49
Subject: Conscript change is revealed on Warhammer community
Purifier wrote: This doesn't really fix them at all, if it's the only change. The reduced unit size is ok, I suppose, but then you just get two units instead and cluster them around the Commissar.
The problem was always the Commissar, so I guess we'll see if he is changed at all. My guess is no.
They're still as hard to remove as before, but they pose less of a threat.
I think the intention is to let them be cheap effective screening units, which can't do much more.
How in the heck is a commissar surrounded by scrubs hard to remove? There are hundreds of ways to deal with those blowhards.
Ok, 600 points is 200 conscripts. A Commissar is 30 points. Let's give them 2. Now give me your best 660 points for removing them and tell me how many rounds it will take it. Hiding Commissars is trivial, so let's say one is open enough that you can snipe him, the other is not. By using dumb placements with tendrils of men, every unit is able to benefit from either commissar. Hit me.
2017/09/29 14:30:24
Subject: Conscript change is revealed on Warhammer community
ross-128 wrote: So you want to force us to rely on a gimmick of rotating deep-strikers that leaves us helpless against bikes, transports, jump infantry, and basically any other source of 12"+ movement?
The idea that a screen should be wiped in a single turn by equal points is absurd on its face. A "screen" that could be removed so easily would be the second most fragile model in the game (behind the lascannon HWT, champion of fragility by virtue of being 20 points of gun sitting on 6 points of wounds).
I think this is intended as a reply to me but I feel like you've so badly misunderstood what I'm saying that I'm not sure what to say here other than to suggest that you re-read the conversation I was participating in.
2017/09/29 14:31:50
Subject: Conscript change is revealed on Warhammer community
ross-128 wrote: So you want to force us to rely on a gimmick of rotating deep-strikers that leaves us helpless against bikes, transports, jump infantry, and basically any other source of 12"+ movement?
The idea that a screen should be wiped in a single turn by equal points is absurd on its face. A "screen" that could be removed so easily would be the second most fragile model in the game (behind the lascannon HWT, champion of fragility by virtue of being 20 points of gun sitting on 6 points of wounds).
Not equal points, more points. For instance 30 ork boyz in combat should remove 30 conscripts in a single turn if they all get to attack (that is double points). OR 3 10 man tactical squads should easily remove 30 conscripts in a turn if they are all in optimal range (360 points). Right now those marines would leave 12 conscripts alive after shooting, and then if they could all charge might be able to kill your conscripts.
2017/09/29 14:32:22
Subject: Conscript change is revealed on Warhammer community
Unit1126PLL wrote: You can avoid shooting (except against artillery) by being out of Line of Sight.
That's like saying you can avoid assault by being out of charge range. It's not how these games work at all. What are you gonna be doing while your entire army is hiding out of line of sight?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/29 14:33:23
2017/09/29 14:36:28
Subject: Conscript change is revealed on Warhammer community
Purifier wrote: This doesn't really fix them at all, if it's the only change. The reduced unit size is ok, I suppose, but then you just get two units instead and cluster them around the Commissar.
The problem was always the Commissar, so I guess we'll see if he is changed at all. My guess is no.
They're still as hard to remove as before, but they pose less of a threat. I think the intention is to let them be cheap effective screening units, which can't do much more.
How in the heck is a commissar surrounded by scrubs hard to remove? There are hundreds of ways to deal with those blowhards.
Ok, 600 points is 200 conscripts. A Commissar is 30 points. Let's give them 2. Now give me your best 660 points for removing them and tell me how many rounds it will take it. Hiding Commissars is trivial, so let's say one is open enough that you can snipe him, the other is not. By using dumb placements with tendrils of men, every unit is able to benefit from either commissar. Hit me.
ross-128 wrote: It takes about 3x the cost of anti-infantry shooting for most things to remove (supported) conscripts
Do you have some figures for that?
In a single turn, definitely takes about that much. And it should.
Let's see though.
Spoiler:
Captain w/MCBG and chainsword Primaris Lieutenant As such, all 1s on to-hit and to-wound are rerolled. 4 tactical squads w/combiflamer, flamer. Flamers: 8d6 auto hits, average 28 hits, 3+ to wound reroll 1s, 21.778, 14.5 models removed from flamers. Combi-boltguns: 8 shots, 4+ hit reroll 1s, 4.667 hits, 3+ to wound reroll 1s, 4.148 wounds, about 3 models removed from sarge boltgun-mode combiflamers. Boltguns+MCABR: 34 shots, 3+ hit reroll 1s, 26.445 hits, 3+ to wound reroll 1s, 20.568 wounds, 14 models removed from squaddie boltguns and the Lt's MCABR. Mastercrafted Boltgun: 2 shots, 2+ to hit reroll 1s, 1.945 hits, 3+ to wound reroll 1s, 1.296 wounds, 1 model removed from the captain.
Then they assault. Captain, Lt, and 4 squads all use grenades. Captain rolled separately because separate to-hit, 3.5 average attacks, hit on 2+ rerolling misses, 3.403 hits, wounding on 4+ rerolling 1s, 1.985 wounds, 1 and a third model removed by the cap's grenade. Other 5 grenades average 17.5 attacks, 3+ to hit reroll 1s, 13.611 hits, wounding on 4+ rerolling 1s, 7.940 wounds, and 5.293 models removed.
So in total, before the assault phase after the grenades-- which is a charge, so the tacticals hit first-- they have already removed 39 models, then in the assault phase, they get 28 hitting on 3+ from the tac squads, 9 hitting on 2+ from the characters, all wounding in 3+, rerolling 1s to hit and to wound. 21.778 hits from tacs, 16.938 wounds, 11 models removed. The squad is already gone before the characters get to attack. Marines consolidates 3", preferably in to cover, and get ready for the opponent's turn, sans conscripts.
Yeah that's about right; 4 tac squads and a pair of HQs* manage to frekaing delete an entire 50-man conscript squad in one turn without taking any damage, and without taking in to account any chapter tactics. And that's tacticals, I should remind you. To give an understatement of the century, tacticals aren't exactly the super-best op-pls-nerf unit in the Marine army list according to most people on this forum.
*To be clear, I chose this particular grouping because this was less than 3x the cost of a conscript squad and support. This is around 491 points; a unit of conscripts needs at least a platoon commander and commissar, putting them at 201 points, and even a company commander and commissar split across two squads of conscripts is still 180 points per conscript squad.
Purifier wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote: You can avoid shooting (except against artillery) by being out of Line of Sight.
That's like saying you can avoid assault by being out of charge range. It's not how these games work at all. What are you gonna be doing while your entire army is hiding out of line of sight?
scoring on objectives and winning like what happened to me at NOVA more than once.
Automatically Appended Next Post: OH! That's only 491 points and would take 4 turns.
I'm sure if you added the other 170 (say, 2 assault cannon razorbaks or the like) you could get it under 3 turns.
And that's also if the characters do not participate in the assault, if you read melissia's post.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/09/29 14:38:42
2017/09/29 14:40:42
Subject: Conscript change is revealed on Warhammer community
OH! That's only 491 points and would take 4 turns.
I'm sure if you added the other 170 (say, 2 assault cannon razorbaks or the like) you could get it under 3 turns.
And that's also if the characters do not participate in the assault, if you read melissia's post.
HAHAHAHA and how are these marines managing to shoot their full loadout and charge every round? And not taking ANY casualties? That is the worst example I've ever read.
The assumption is that A) they got all the way to you without being touched, B) they take no casualties. C) they kill exactly everyone they are fighting and no one else interrupts them between their rounds so they can keep shooting->charging. and D) In none of the charges do they lose a single man.
WHEN IS THIS GOING TO HAPPEN!?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/09/29 14:43:50
2017/09/29 14:41:04
Subject: Conscript change is revealed on Warhammer community
Purifier wrote: This doesn't really fix them at all, if it's the only change. The reduced unit size is ok, I suppose, but then you just get two units instead and cluster them around the Commissar.
The problem was always the Commissar, so I guess we'll see if he is changed at all. My guess is no.
They're still as hard to remove as before, but they pose less of a threat.
I think the intention is to let them be cheap effective screening units, which can't do much more.
How in the heck is a commissar surrounded by scrubs hard to remove? There are hundreds of ways to deal with those blowhards.
Ok, 600 points is 200 conscripts. A Commissar is 30 points. Let's give them 2. Now give me your best 660 points for removing them and tell me how many rounds it will take it. Hiding Commissars is trivial, so let's say one is open enough that you can snipe him, the other is not. By using dumb placements with tendrils of men, every unit is able to benefit from either commissar. Hit me.
ross-128 wrote: It takes about 3x the cost of anti-infantry shooting for most things to remove (supported) conscripts
Do you have some figures for that?
In a single turn, definitely takes about that much. And it should.
Let's see though.
Spoiler:
Captain w/MCBG and chainsword
Primaris Lieutenant
As such, all 1s on to-hit and to-wound are rerolled.
4 tactical squads w/combiflamer, flamer.
Flamers: 8d6 auto hits, average 28 hits, 3+ to wound reroll 1s, 21.778, 14.5 models removed from flamers.
Combi-boltguns: 8 shots, 4+ hit reroll 1s, 4.667 hits, 3+ to wound reroll 1s, 4.148 wounds, about 3 models removed from sarge boltgun-mode combiflamers.
Boltguns+MCABR: 34 shots, 3+ hit reroll 1s, 26.445 hits, 3+ to wound reroll 1s, 20.568 wounds, 14 models removed from squaddie boltguns and the Lt's MCABR.
Mastercrafted Boltgun: 2 shots, 2+ to hit reroll 1s, 1.945 hits, 3+ to wound reroll 1s, 1.296 wounds, 1 model removed from the captain.
Then they assault. Captain, Lt, and 4 squads all use grenades. Captain rolled separately because separate to-hit, 3.5 average attacks, hit on 2+ rerolling misses, 3.403 hits, wounding on 4+ rerolling 1s, 1.985 wounds, 1 and a third model removed by the cap's grenade. Other 5 grenades average 17.5 attacks, 3+ to hit reroll 1s, 13.611 hits, wounding on 4+ rerolling 1s, 7.940 wounds, and 5.293 models removed.
So in total, before the assault phase after the grenades-- which is a charge, so the tacticals hit first-- they have already removed 39 models, then in the assault phase, they get 28 hitting on 3+ from the tac squads, 9 hitting on 2+ from the characters, all wounding in 3+, rerolling 1s to hit and to wound. 21.778 hits from tacs, 16.938 wounds, 11 models removed. The squad is already gone before the characters get to attack. Marines consolidates 3", preferably in to cover, and get ready for the opponent's turn, sans conscripts.
Yeah that's about right; 4 tac squads and a pair of HQs* manage to frekaing delete an entire 50-man conscript squad in one turn without taking any damage, and without taking in to account any chapter tactics. And that's tacticals, I should remind you. To give an understatement of the century, tacticals aren't exactly the super-best op-pls-nerf unit in the Marine army list according to most people on this forum.
*To be clear, I chose this particular grouping because this was less than 3x the cost of a conscript squad and support. This is around 491 points; a unit of conscripts needs at least a platoon commander and commissar, putting them at 201 points, and even a company commander and commissar split across two squads of conscripts is still 180 points per conscript squad.
Purifier wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote: You can avoid shooting (except against artillery) by being out of Line of Sight.
That's like saying you can avoid assault by being out of charge range. It's not how these games work at all. What are you gonna be doing while your entire army is hiding out of line of sight?
scoring on objectives and winning like what happened to me at NOVA more than once.
Automatically Appended Next Post: OH! That's only 491 points and would take 4 turns.
I'm sure if you added the other 170 (say, 2 assault cannon razorbaks or the like) you could get it under 3 turns.
That does assume no artillery in the guard army, which is really the sticking point in your balance argument. The army with the best screen in the game should not also have the best long range no LOS shooting. If artillery were not so powerful a lot of this would be different. Your argument is that not all guard armies have this, and that is true, but it exists and as such is a balance issue. Now maybe it could be addressed for the artillery making them less effective (I've argued -1 to hit if they don't have LOS to the target). At which point the screen is less of an issue.
2017/09/29 14:44:35
Subject: Conscript change is revealed on Warhammer community
OH! That's only 491 points and would take 4 turns.
I'm sure if you added the other 170 (say, 2 assault cannon razorbaks or the like) you could get it under 3 turns.
And that's also if the characters do not participate in the assault, if you read melissia's post.
HAHAHAHA and how are these marines managing to shoot their full loadout and charge every round? And not taking ANY casualties? That is the worst example I've ever read.
Let me know when you stop running with those goalposts.
Breng77 wrote:That does assume no artillery in the guard army, which is really the sticking point in your balance argument. The army with the best screen in the game should not also have the best long range no LOS shooting. If artillery were not so powerful a lot of this would be different. Your argument is that not all guard armies have this, and that is true, but it exists and as such is a balance issue. Now maybe it could be addressed for the artillery making them less effective (I've argued -1 to hit if they don't have LOS to the target). At which point the screen is less of an issue.
So by nerfing the screen you therefore nerf every army that doesn't have artillery... and make even casual IG players have to bring artillery?
How about we complain about / nerf the artillery, rather than nerfing every single other army type than artillery?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/29 14:44:51
2017/09/29 14:47:36
Subject: Re:Conscript change is revealed on Warhammer community
Galas wrote: We need youtube memes. The hearthstone community can live with the eras of some totally toxic OP deck because they take it with a laugh. So, who wants to do some Conscripts memes? Maybe that way people will be less angry, all the time.
Spoiler:
As an avid HS player, the way the community survives "broken" decks is by running anti META decks. This is actually my favorite thing to do. When agro shaman was broken I ran a control warrior to legend that lost to 90% of other decks. But because 70% of the player base was running it i had a great overall win percentage. Last season Jade was dominating so I ran Barnes priest that had about a 70% win percentage against jade and about 35% against other decks, but because 80% of people on ladder were playing Jade it was an easy trip to legends. IMO the 40k scene just needs more anti-meta players. If someone is runnning the new broken list there is typically one strange build that can beat it 90% of the other times. What makes this harder in 40k is the models are expensive and take a long time to paint instead of making a new deck that takes a few minutes.
2017/09/29 14:49:33
Subject: Conscript change is revealed on Warhammer community
Let me know when you stop running with those goalposts.
I haven't changed the goalposts at all. I'm telling you the math is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY off, because you're making assumptions in that statement that isn't based in reality. You're assuming that 200 conscripts can't kill a single Marine in 4 rounds for that math to work. That is not changing the goalposts. You're being absolutely ridiculous. If we can just ignore math I could have just said "well, you can get 800 conscripts for 4 points!" and when you say "no you can't" I just go STOP RUNNING WITH THE GOALPOSTS!
2017/09/29 14:49:56
Subject: Conscript change is revealed on Warhammer community
Yeah, you are right Asmodios. In Age of Sigmar for example, you had the meta competitive lists that where mortal wound spam, but nobody ran their "anti meta army" that was Hordes.
But the problem is that having a deck in Hearthstone and a Army in warhammer is like... hundreds of euros cheaper and you only need to spend like 20-30 minutes opening the packs and building your decks.
One can't expect the same kind of "meta adapting" mentality in a wargame than in a computer card game.
EDIT: Ok I should read posts to the last phrase before I respond to them, you already said this
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/29 14:50:29
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
