Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

the_scotsman wrote:

 NenkotaMoon wrote:

 Hollow wrote:
Wow... this issue has really brought out the crazy in people. Who the hell is bringing 500 conscripts with them to a game?

Every IG in a vacuum to every single game, birthday party, vacation, and board meeting.

"meeting adjourned"

*Gets up, drops briefcase, 500 conscripts fall on the floor*

"Jenkins! You never told us you were a POWERGAMER!"

"it's not what it looks like sir, I can explain! I swear I'm a fluff player, I - "

"YOUUUUUUURE FIRRRRRRED!"

Exalted

 Insectum7 wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

Darsath wrote:

 Hollow wrote:
Wow... this issue has really brought out the crazy in people. Who the hell is bringing 500 conscripts with them to a game?

Yeah, people really are exaggerating the amount of conscripts people were bringing. They're overpowered for sure, and I don't think this change will mean a thing, but it's obvious that conscripts were most competitive in soup lists with a bunch of other Overpowered units in it.

This is definitely part of if. If Imperial soup were not a thing and conscripts were only in IG armies (not screening for things like RG or 10 Razorbacks) I think it would be more tolerable. My only complaint then would be IG artillery being too good with the inclusion of such a good screen and essentially unlimited range. I feel like "allies" should no longer be a thing in matched play, I think it is much easier to have a balanced game in that manner. Especially because the option to ally is not equal amongst factions. Then if GW wants to have ally factions (like Inquisition, Assassins etc) then that is ok or if they want composite factions like "ynnari", or Daemon summoning in CSM. I think that can work ok. But I don't think they have gone far enough to encourage playing single faction armies in matched play.

I agree with this. I don't mind that the "soup" exists, but I would prefer to see a little less of it when it comes to "primary" factions. It bugs me that in the Tyranid tactica people advocate taking IG artillery to be competitive.

haha, bugs me.

Yup if not completely out I would at least have liked to see faction benefits only gained if your entire army shares the relevant keyword.

Breng77 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

Darsath wrote:

 Hollow wrote:
Wow... this issue has really brought out the crazy in people. Who the hell is bringing 500 conscripts with them to a game?

Yeah, people really are exaggerating the amount of conscripts people were bringing. They're overpowered for sure, and I don't think this change will mean a thing, but it's obvious that conscripts were most competitive in soup lists with a bunch of other Overpowered units in it.

This is definitely part of if. If Imperial soup were not a thing and conscripts were only in IG armies (not screening for things like RG or 10 Razorbacks) I think it would be more tolerable. My only complaint then would be IG artillery being too good with the inclusion of such a good screen and essentially unlimited range. I feel like "allies" should no longer be a thing in matched play, I think it is much easier to have a balanced game in that manner. Especially because the option to ally is not equal amongst factions. Then if GW wants to have ally factions (like Inquisition, Assassins etc) then that is ok or if they want composite factions like "ynnari", or Daemon summoning in CSM. I think that can work ok. But I don't think they have gone far enough to encourage playing single faction armies in matched play.

I agree with this. I don't mind that the "soup" exists, but I would prefer to see a little less of it when it comes to "primary" factions. It bugs me that in the Tyranid tactica people advocate taking IG artillery to be competitive.

haha, bugs me.

Yup if not completely out I would at least have liked to see faction benefits only gained if your entire army shares the relevant keyword.

I guess two or more keywords could cover it? Not just Imperial but, Imperial and Space Marine <Chapter> or whatever. (Don't have books on me)

 Insectum7 wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

Darsath wrote:

 Hollow wrote:
Wow... this issue has really brought out the crazy in people. Who the hell is bringing 500 conscripts with them to a game?

Yeah, people really are exaggerating the amount of conscripts people were bringing. They're overpowered for sure, and I don't think this change will mean a thing, but it's obvious that conscripts were most competitive in soup lists with a bunch of other Overpowered units in it.

This is definitely part of if. If Imperial soup were not a thing and conscripts were only in IG armies (not screening for things like RG or 10 Razorbacks) I think it would be more tolerable. My only complaint then would be IG artillery being too good with the inclusion of such a good screen and essentially unlimited range. I feel like "allies" should no longer be a thing in matched play, I think it is much easier to have a balanced game in that manner. Especially because the option to ally is not equal amongst factions. Then if GW wants to have ally factions (like Inquisition, Assassins etc) then that is ok or if they want composite factions like "ynnari", or Daemon summoning in CSM. I think that can work ok. But I don't think they have gone far enough to encourage playing single faction armies in matched play.

I agree with this. I don't mind that the "soup" exists, but I would prefer to see a little less of it when it comes to "primary" factions. It bugs me that in the Tyranid tactica people advocate taking IG artillery to be competitive.

haha, bugs me.

Yup if not completely out I would at least have liked to see faction benefits only gained if your entire army shares the relevant keyword.

I guess two or more keywords could cover it? Not just Imperial but, Imperial and Space Marine <Chapter> or whatever. (Don't have books on me)

I was more thinking that to get say the ultra marines Chapter tactics and strategems would require your entire army to have the ultra marines keyword, with the exception of maybe an inquisitor/assassin. Or maybe except a single auxiliary detachment from needing the keyword or something. That way you can play soup if you want, but you don't gain any army specific benefits from your "chapter". So your space marine army cannot have say Raven Guard for some troops, but Ultra Marines for your gunline with Guiliman. But you could take just RG as an aux detachment and keep your Raven Guard CT.

Part of the problem is the keyword and ally system has been built into the game fundamentally. A lot of small factions, GSC, custodes and inquisitors for example, would need overhauls to work with a revamped version requiring greater unity.

On the other hand, works great for chaos. I can go all CSM of different types, or mix demons and CSM if they are all dedicated to a single god.

So I do like the idea, but it isn't something you could just slap on as a rule for matched play without overhauling a few armies and altering keywords. Giving custodes and GSC a rule ignoring it (as GSC already sorta has) and adding the inquisition keyword to a number of existing armies (SoB, deathwatch, and grey knights) for example.

 Hollow wrote:
Wow... this issue has really brought out the crazy in people. Who the hell is bringing 500 conscripts with them to a game?

The most I've ever seen was 200, with 100-150 being closer to the norm.

Hmmm, aren't commisars Officio Prefectus? So they need to be in a different detachment, and that detachment isn't gonna have Regiment special rules, not even making it a Tempestus Scions detachment.

SilverAlien wrote:
Part of the problem is the keyword and ally system has been built into the game fundamentally. A lot of small factions, GSC, custodes and inquisitors for example, would need overhauls to work with a revamped version requiring greater unity.

On the other hand, works great for chaos. I can go all CSM of different types, or mix demons and CSM if they are all dedicated to a single god.

So I do like the idea, but it isn't something you could just slap on as a rule for matched play without overhauling a few armies and altering keywords. Giving custodes and GSC a rule ignoring it (as GSC already sorta has) and adding the inquisition keyword to a number of existing armies (SoB, deathwatch, and grey knights) for example.

 Hollow wrote:
Wow... this issue has really brought out the crazy in people. Who the hell is bringing 500 conscripts with them to a game?

The most I've ever seen was 200, with 100-150 being closer to the norm.

It would be easy for GSC, you just tack a sentence into the Blood Brothers rule that says that their IG detachment does not negate their CT. But if they ally nids then they give up CT.

For incomplete armies like Inquisition/Assassins you could go a couple of ways (potentially both).

1.) For assassins State that units from these codices may be included in imperium armies without effecting CT
2.) For Inquisition Give the ordos their own traits, and state that these armies can include any imperium units but restrict taking any non-inquisition HQ choices.

I think I would retain the Chapter tactics and strategems, but start knocking off CPs instead. I feel like the Space Marines would still be able to fight as they normally do even if paired up with IG, but overall command coordination might be less efficient. Something like lose the +3 CP bonus for Battleforged seems more appropriate to me.

Anyways, I like the idea of soup reduction, but we've drifted off topic.

More on-topic, I'm happy that it appears like GW has not made sweeping changes to conscripts. A chance to fumble orders and limited squad sizes is much better than increasing costs for them or some of the other proposed changes. I look forward to seeing them in full codex context though.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Spoiler:

Breng77 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

Darsath wrote:

 Hollow wrote:
Wow... this issue has really brought out the crazy in people. Who the hell is bringing 500 conscripts with them to a game?

Yeah, people really are exaggerating the amount of conscripts people were bringing. They're overpowered for sure, and I don't think this change will mean a thing, but it's obvious that conscripts were most competitive in soup lists with a bunch of other Overpowered units in it.

This is definitely part of if. If Imperial soup were not a thing and conscripts were only in IG armies (not screening for things like RG or 10 Razorbacks) I think it would be more tolerable. My only complaint then would be IG artillery being too good with the inclusion of such a good screen and essentially unlimited range. I feel like "allies" should no longer be a thing in matched play, I think it is much easier to have a balanced game in that manner. Especially because the option to ally is not equal amongst factions. Then if GW wants to have ally factions (like Inquisition, Assassins etc) then that is ok or if they want composite factions like "ynnari", or Daemon summoning in CSM. I think that can work ok. But I don't think they have gone far enough to encourage playing single faction armies in matched play.

I agree with this. I don't mind that the "soup" exists, but I would prefer to see a little less of it when it comes to "primary" factions. It bugs me that in the Tyranid tactica people advocate taking IG artillery to be competitive.

haha, bugs me.

Yup if not completely out I would at least have liked to see faction benefits only gained if your entire army shares the relevant keyword.

I guess two or more keywords could cover it? Not just Imperial but, Imperial and Space Marine <Chapter> or whatever. (Don't have books on me)

I was more thinking that to get say the ultra marines Chapter tactics and strategems would require your entire army to have the ultra marines keyword, with the exception of maybe an inquisitor/assassin. Or maybe except a single auxiliary detachment from needing the keyword or something. That way you can play soup if you want, but you don't gain any army specific benefits from your "chapter". So your space marine army cannot have say Raven Guard for some troops, but Ultra Marines for your gunline with Guiliman. But you could take just RG as an aux detachment and keep your Raven Guard CT.

I think I would retain the Chapter tactics and strategems, but start knocking off CPs instead. I feel like the Space Marines would still be able to fight as they normally do even if paired up with IG, but overall command coordination might be less efficient. Something like lose the +3 CP bonus for Battleforged seems more appropriate to me.

Anyways, I like the idea of soup reduction, but we've drifted off topic.

More on-topic, I'm happy that it appears like GW has not made sweeping changes to conscripts. A chance to fumble orders and limited squad sizes is much better than increasing costs for them or some of the other proposed changes. I look forward to seeing them in full codex context though.

Make it so you have to elect your primary army (say Space Marines, Ad Mech etc), and any detachment from a different book wouldn't grant any command points gained for the detachment.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Spoiler:

Breng77 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

Darsath wrote:

 Hollow wrote:
Wow... this issue has really brought out the crazy in people. Who the hell is bringing 500 conscripts with them to a game?

Yeah, people really are exaggerating the amount of conscripts people were bringing. They're overpowered for sure, and I don't think this change will mean a thing, but it's obvious that conscripts were most competitive in soup lists with a bunch of other Overpowered units in it.

This is definitely part of if. If Imperial soup were not a thing and conscripts were only in IG armies (not screening for things like RG or 10 Razorbacks) I think it would be more tolerable. My only complaint then would be IG artillery being too good with the inclusion of such a good screen and essentially unlimited range. I feel like "allies" should no longer be a thing in matched play, I think it is much easier to have a balanced game in that manner. Especially because the option to ally is not equal amongst factions. Then if GW wants to have ally factions (like Inquisition, Assassins etc) then that is ok or if they want composite factions like "ynnari", or Daemon summoning in CSM. I think that can work ok. But I don't think they have gone far enough to encourage playing single faction armies in matched play.

I agree with this. I don't mind that the "soup" exists, but I would prefer to see a little less of it when it comes to "primary" factions. It bugs me that in the Tyranid tactica people advocate taking IG artillery to be competitive.

haha, bugs me.

Yup if not completely out I would at least have liked to see faction benefits only gained if your entire army shares the relevant keyword.

I guess two or more keywords could cover it? Not just Imperial but, Imperial and Space Marine <Chapter> or whatever. (Don't have books on me)

I was more thinking that to get say the ultra marines Chapter tactics and strategems would require your entire army to have the ultra marines keyword, with the exception of maybe an inquisitor/assassin. Or maybe except a single auxiliary detachment from needing the keyword or something. That way you can play soup if you want, but you don't gain any army specific benefits from your "chapter". So your space marine army cannot have say Raven Guard for some troops, but Ultra Marines for your gunline with Guiliman. But you could take just RG as an aux detachment and keep your Raven Guard CT.

I think I would retain the Chapter tactics and strategems, but start knocking off CPs instead. I feel like the Space Marines would still be able to fight as they normally do even if paired up with IG, but overall command coordination might be less efficient. Something like lose the +3 CP bonus for Battleforged seems more appropriate to me.

Anyways, I like the idea of soup reduction, but we've drifted off topic.

More on-topic, I'm happy that it appears like GW has not made sweeping changes to conscripts. A chance to fumble orders and limited squad sizes is much better than increasing costs for them or some of the other proposed changes. I look forward to seeing them in full codex context though.

I don't think the CP knock is far enough as it is too easy, especially for imperial armies, to have a ton of CP. IT has little to do with "they would fight as normal" and more to do with the game mechanics giving your a benefit for restricting your choices. Right now with the detachment based system the restriction on CT is basically non-existent. I think if you said "your whole army must be x to benefit from x tactics" then people would have a real choice to make.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Darsath wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Spoiler:

Breng77 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

Darsath wrote:

 Hollow wrote:
Wow... this issue has really brought out the crazy in people. Who the hell is bringing 500 conscripts with them to a game?

Yeah, people really are exaggerating the amount of conscripts people were bringing. They're overpowered for sure, and I don't think this change will mean a thing, but it's obvious that conscripts were most competitive in soup lists with a bunch of other Overpowered units in it.

This is definitely part of if. If Imperial soup were not a thing and conscripts were only in IG armies (not screening for things like RG or 10 Razorbacks) I think it would be more tolerable. My only complaint then would be IG artillery being too good with the inclusion of such a good screen and essentially unlimited range. I feel like "allies" should no longer be a thing in matched play, I think it is much easier to have a balanced game in that manner. Especially because the option to ally is not equal amongst factions. Then if GW wants to have ally factions (like Inquisition, Assassins etc) then that is ok or if they want composite factions like "ynnari", or Daemon summoning in CSM. I think that can work ok. But I don't think they have gone far enough to encourage playing single faction armies in matched play.

I agree with this. I don't mind that the "soup" exists, but I would prefer to see a little less of it when it comes to "primary" factions. It bugs me that in the Tyranid tactica people advocate taking IG artillery to be competitive.

haha, bugs me.

Yup if not completely out I would at least have liked to see faction benefits only gained if your entire army shares the relevant keyword.

I guess two or more keywords could cover it? Not just Imperial but, Imperial and Space Marine <Chapter> or whatever. (Don't have books on me)

I was more thinking that to get say the ultra marines Chapter tactics and strategems would require your entire army to have the ultra marines keyword, with the exception of maybe an inquisitor/assassin. Or maybe except a single auxiliary detachment from needing the keyword or something. That way you can play soup if you want, but you don't gain any army specific benefits from your "chapter". So your space marine army cannot have say Raven Guard for some troops, but Ultra Marines for your gunline with Guiliman. But you could take just RG as an aux detachment and keep your Raven Guard CT.

I think I would retain the Chapter tactics and strategems, but start knocking off CPs instead. I feel like the Space Marines would still be able to fight as they normally do even if paired up with IG, but overall command coordination might be less efficient. Something like lose the +3 CP bonus for Battleforged seems more appropriate to me.

Anyways, I like the idea of soup reduction, but we've drifted off topic.

More on-topic, I'm happy that it appears like GW has not made sweeping changes to conscripts. A chance to fumble orders and limited squad sizes is much better than increasing costs for them or some of the other proposed changes. I look forward to seeing them in full codex context though.

Make it so you have to elect your primary army (say Space Marines, Ad Mech etc), and any detachment from a different book wouldn't grant any command points gained for the detachment.

Then you just pick the one giving you a ton of CP, and you lose a couple from the elite detachments.

 Galas wrote:
Hmmm, aren't commisars Officio Prefectus? So they need to be in a different detachment, and that detachment isn't gonna have Regiment special rules, not even making it a Tempestus Scions detachment.

You mean in the actual Guard codex? Surely it's just going to be like: "You get doctrines if all units in a detachment with a <REGIMENT> keyword have the same one. Officio Prefectus, Aeronautica Imperialis, etc. are not <REGIMENTS>." Like how Chaos Marines deal with the Fallen and Fabius Bile.

Dionysodorus wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Hmmm, aren't commisars Officio Prefectus? So they need to be in a different detachment, and that detachment isn't gonna have Regiment special rules, not even making it a Tempestus Scions detachment.

You mean in the actual Guard codex? Surely it's just going to be like: "You get doctrines if all units in a detachment with a <REGIMENT> keyword have the same one. Officio Prefectus, Aeronautica Imperialis, etc. are not <REGIMENTS>." Like how Chaos Marines deal with the Fallen and Fabius Bile.

one of the previews went over it. All the auxilia are just given a blanket exception and don't interfere with or receive regiment tactics. We can even still bring scions in a cadian regiment for example, they just don't get their own regiment tactic or the cadian one. But it doesn't interfere.

However, units like my vindicare would block my regiment tactic, which is a real damn shame. He'll have to have his own detachment with the other black sheep.

He does for everyone, and that's good. Should be more things like that, where getting something from another army isn't just free stuff. I'd like to see things like "detachments from a different codex than your main detachment doesn't get the extra Command Points."

I mean, you say that but currently the detachment system is going to be my saving grace. I can use some of my R&H stuff to make a decent IG detachment to go along with my admech. Tech thralls as conscripts (at least till fires comes out), the leman russes that have been gathering dust the entire time I owned them, and whatever artillery is still good this edition.

Whst's funny to me is that my admech are now in the position my CSM were last edition, where I'm allying with guard/R&H just to be decent. I think my R&H models have been the single best investment I've ever made in this hobby.

This codex is broken, conscripts actually have competition now. Most play tested edition ever, right guys?

An old IG player will be able to wipe the board clean with this codex without breaking a sweat. Maybe this hobby was a mistake...

Chapter Approved will likely limit the amount of allies you can bring just like the GHB2017 did for AoS.

The problem they made with these separate codecies or over powered factions is that it's not fun for both players. The IG player doesn't like that they now play on easy mode with no need to use tactics or even move (if you just role some dice every turn you might as well play a game without models). And none codex factions get sick of losing every week against stacked odds. It doesn't sell figures to the majority and just kills the game over time. The huge boom in sales during thd index period should show how fun the game became but now it's slowly feeling like a bunch of the play testers are fixing the system for their own reasons. In the end, when all thd codex stuff is out, everything will probably be fine again as every faction is op balancing out everyone but now players have to deal with months of meh.

 SideshowLucifer wrote:
Chapter Approved will likely limit the amount of allies you can bring just like the GHB2017 did for AoS.

A week ago that might've helped some, but now it'd make things worse. So hopefully they won't do that unless they want the game to be even less balanced.

 lolman1c wrote:
The problem they made with these separate codecies or over powered factions is that it's not fun for both players. The IG player doesn't like that they now play on easy mode with no need to use tactics or even move (if you just role some dice every turn you might as well play a game without models). And none codex factions get sick of losing every week against stacked odds. It doesn't sell figures to the majority and just kills the game over time. The huge boom in sales during thd index period should show how fun the game became but now it's slowly feeling like a bunch of the play testers are fixing the system for their own reasons. In the end, when all thd codex stuff is out, everything will probably be fine again as every faction is op balancing out everyone but now players have to deal with months of meh.

That's assuming the rest of the codices are on guard level, not the mediocrity that preceded the IG codex. Even then all the early codices will be screwed, which is a bit annoying as someone whose main armies all fell into that window. Guess we need to see what nids and eldar do.

> That's assuming the rest of the codices are on guard level, not the mediocrity that preceded the IG codex.

What mediocrity? Has there been any mediocre codices in 8th edition?

 Quickjager wrote:
This codex is broken, conscripts actually have competition now. Most play tested edition ever, right guys?

An old IG player will be able to wipe the board clean with this codex without breaking a sweat. Maybe this hobby was a mistake...

I feel the same way. So far only the strongest armies got better than any of the others in 8th.

pismakron wrote:
> That's assuming the rest of the codices are on guard level, not the mediocrity that preceded the IG codex.

What mediocrity? Has there been any mediocre codices in 8th edition?

None of the codices have been mediocre, but none of them have raised the power level bar past where it was in the Indexes. All the Codex Armies were still getting beat by Index Guard, and now Guard is better than it was in the Index...

Codex not even released yet and bad players already lamenting how it's broken the game, lmao

 Corrode wrote:
Codex not even released yet and bad players already lamenting how it's broken the game, lmao

Calling kettle black are we?

pismakron wrote:
> That's assuming the rest of the codices are on guard level, not the mediocrity that preceded the IG codex.

What mediocrity? Has there been any mediocre codices in 8th edition?

I mean, they generally haven't done anything major to the armies (barring DG because it was barely an army before). They had some decent options but nothing mind blowing. Not compared to the IG codex at least.

That's kinda the thing, this wasn't a case of every codex being more powerful than the last, this is one codex that fundamentally does not sit on the same power curve as the rest, which are all ballpark with one another.

 Corrode wrote:
Codex not even released yet and bad players already lamenting how it's broken the game, lmao

And suprise suprise, it's the same old usual suspects crying that the sky is falling. Will they ever tire?

 Hollow wrote:
And suprise suprise, it's the same old usual suspects crying that the sky is falling. Will they ever tire?

"Hey, remember when these guys pointed out how broken conscripts were and said that they'd be a must take for any serious imperial army? And remember when this turned out to 100% be correct and they've become an omnipresent staple of the tournament scene? Well those people are at it again! When will they stop "jumping" to totally correct conclusions based on basic math and logic!"

Seriously, I watched thread after thread of people defending broken units even as evidence continued to mount and they gave up and went quiet. Maybe pattern recognition would help some of you.

SilverAlien wrote:

 Hollow wrote:
And suprise suprise, it's the same old usual suspects crying that the sky is falling. Will they ever tire?

"Hey, remember when these guys pointed out how broken conscripts were and said that they'd be a must take for any serious imperial army? And remember when this turned out to 100% be correct and they've become an omnipresent staple of the tournament scene? Well those people are at it again! When will they stop "jumping" to totally correct conclusions based on basic math and logic!"

Seriously, I watched thread after thread of people defending broken units even as evidence continued to mount and they gave up and went quiet. Maybe pattern recognition would help some of you.

To be fair, half of those people also called out three to ten other things to be broken as well and were wrong on most of them.

I have no problem (In fact, I like) when people use math and logic to rationally discuss and breakdown codexes. When people start crying that the whole book is broken, therefore the whole game is broken, when a book hasn't even been released yet. That gets on my nerves.

 Jidmah wrote:
To be fair, half of those people also called out three to ten other things to be broken as well and were wrong on most of them.

True, I originally thought index noise marines were really good for example. But again, a lot of those were reactions to an entirely new edition based on past information. 5 codices in we have a much better idea what the norms for this edition are:

 Jidmah wrote:
To be fair, half of those people also called out three to ten other things to be broken as well and were wrong on most of them.

Conscripts were obviously good however you sliced it.
The "its impossible for 240 points of [X] to kill 240 points of Necron warriors" panic fortunately died down pretty fast.