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 Hollow wrote:
I have no problem (In fact, I like) when people use math and logic to rationally discuss and breakdown codexes. When people start crying that the whole book is broken, therefore the whole game is broken, when a book hasn't even been released yet. That gets on my nerves.

The whole book isn't broken, that is hyperbole to a degree. But the codex is already undeniably superior to the previous codices. The strongest WT yet released is in it as a generic trait for any regiment for example, and said trait is a direct upgrade of many existing WTs. Similarly the relics are without a doubt the best we've seen so far. The stratagems perhaps not, but the doctrines applying to everything and giving some really strong benefits again are directly superior to basically everything we've seen before, barring Stygies admech as the singular exception.

This codex is without a doubt codex creep, and that bodes poorly for the edition moving forward. It shows that, even with the undeniably simplified 8th edition, balance isn't going to last. Which kinda makes a lot of us wonder why we should play such a basic system if GW still can't balance even this. I'm kinda curious what the HH code rulebook ends up looking like myself.

Aah, good to see the same old complainers are out in force, stating that the Guard are going to br brokenly OP. I think the word they are actually looking for is 'competitive' and 'not underpowered', maybe even 'balanced'.
Although to be fair, these are the people whom classify 'broken' as 'my unit of uberkilly marine fanwank cant wipe it out in turn 1', so there is that to consider.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Aah, good to see the same old complainers are out in force, stating that the Guard are going to br brokenly OP. I think the word they are actually looking for is 'competitive' and 'not underpowered', maybe even 'balanced'.
Although to be fair, these are the people whom classify 'broken' as 'my unit of uberkilly marine fanwank cant wipe it out in turn 1', so there is that to consider.

Well, personally I include "marine fanwank" in the same broken boat as Imperial Guard, as they are all basically one big army that keeps getting all the best rules and models from GW.

Currently, you could take a fairly varied selection of "imperial soup" units, and easily take on a similar ork/eldar/tau force 25% bigger than you, and still have a strong chance of winning. (Varied selection meaning a fluffy list, or a variety of "decent" units).

If you took the uber OP spam list of imperial soup, then you could increase that margin by a bit.

The only hope Xenos have is to only run their "best" units in a spam list, which pretty much means 200+ boyz plus ghazzy, or nothing but Commanders. But even with such totally boring cheese lists as these, it only gives Xenos a *chance* to win. Odds are still heavily in the favour of the uberkilly IG/Marine fanwank you love so much.

I'm just glad I don't play tournaments, I'm more into this hobby for the fun and the fluff and the modelling. But it doesn't mean I don't still get annoyed at the obvious favourtism going on, and the way people on here seem to be trying to deny it with a straight face.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Aah, good to see the same old complainers are out in force, stating that the Guard are going to br brokenly OP. I think the word they are actually looking for is 'competitive' and 'not underpowered', maybe even 'balanced'.
Although to be fair, these are the people whom classify 'broken' as 'my unit of uberkilly marine fanwank cant wipe it out in turn 1', so there is that to consider.

Dude, you're like the 10th person to make this exsact comment. It's not smart, original or helpful and with the amount of discussion it's clear that something is not right. I've played orks for the last few editions so I've never experienced in my army this magical unit you described but what I do know is that units which were actually wiping my entire army out turn one have just been buffed. And then buffed some more... This would be fine if the other codex stuff showed similar traits but surprisingly, the factions I'm used to getting whipped by, are underwhelming for once. Which makes the IG codex unusual and a lot of people who paid good money on their codex want to know why. It would be like going to a restaurant and buying the same meal as those at the other table. Waiter comes out and gives you a pretty average meal. You're disappointed because you had waited long but it's just fine. Then suddenly the chief himself comes out and walks over to the other table with what looks like an amazing feast. So much effort and thought must have gone into that meal! You sit there confused and feeling robbed. You're in the same place, you ordered the same thing, you paid the same price but the other customer was given special attention. Now imagine you have also been loyal to this restaurant for many many years.... the big problem gw has now is if the following codex seems mediocre. If so, the hate for ig will rise as other factions can't understand why they give gw all this money only to be handed a unloved and rushed peice of work. However, if it is just as great then we will presume this is the new balance and continue our small little lives.

Niiru wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Aah, good to see the same old complainers are out in force, stating that the Guard are going to br brokenly OP. I think the word they are actually looking for is 'competitive' and 'not underpowered', maybe even 'balanced'.
Although to be fair, these are the people whom classify 'broken' as 'my unit of uberkilly marine fanwank cant wipe it out in turn 1', so there is that to consider.

Well, personally I include "marine fanwank" in the same broken boat as Imperial Guard, as they are all basically one big army that keeps getting all the best rules and models from GW.

Currently, you could take a fairly varied selection of "imperial soup" units, and easily take on a similar ork/eldar/tau force 25% bigger than you, and still have a strong chance of winning. (Varied selection meaning a fluffy list, or a variety of "decent" units).

If you took the uber OP spam list of imperial soup, then you could increase that margin by a bit.

The only hope Xenos have is to only run their "best" units in a spam list, which pretty much means 200+ boyz plus ghazzy, or nothing but Commanders. But even with such totally boring cheese lists as these, it only gives Xenos a *chance* to win. Odds are still heavily in the favour of the uberkilly IG/Marine fanwank you love so much.

I'm just glad I don't play tournaments, I'm more into this hobby for the fun and the fluff and the modelling. But it doesn't mean I don't still get annoyed at the obvious favourtism going on, and the way people on here seem to be trying to deny it with a straight face.

Aren't internet trolls fun?

In all seriousness though, it's baffling that Games Workshop made the decision to focus on the armies that could ally with each other in a mega faction first before helping the armies that suffered the most form the ally system of 8th.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Aah, good to see the same old complainers are out in force, stating that the Guard are going to br brokenly OP. I think the word they are actually looking for is 'competitive' and 'not underpowered', maybe even 'balanced'.
Although to be fair, these are the people whom classify 'broken' as 'my unit of uberkilly marine fanwank cant wipe it out in turn 1', so there is that to consider.

Alright, I'm saying it's broken as a Skitarii and Necron player.

Ball is in your court.

SilverAlien wrote:

 Hollow wrote:
I have no problem (In fact, I like) when people use math and logic to rationally discuss and breakdown codexes. When people start crying that the whole book is broken, therefore the whole game is broken, when a book hasn't even been released yet. That gets on my nerves.

The whole book isn't broken, that is hyperbole to a degree. But the codex is already undeniably superior to the previous codices. The strongest WT yet released is in it as a generic trait for any regiment for example, and said trait is a direct upgrade of many existing WTs. Similarly the relics are without a doubt the best we've seen so far. The stratagems perhaps not, but the doctrines applying to everything and giving some really strong benefits again are directly superior to basically everything we've seen before, barring Stygies admech as the singular exception.

This codex is without a doubt codex creep, and that bodes poorly for the edition moving forward. It shows that, even with the undeniably simplified 8th edition, balance isn't going to last. Which kinda makes a lot of us wonder why we should play such a basic system if GW still can't balance even this. I'm kinda curious what the HH code rulebook ends up looking like myself.

One over the top codex makes not a creep.

If the next one/few are as good, it is creep.
If not, than it's an outlier.

Unfortunately, guard seems to be indeed too good right now with the codex.
The conscript nerf was good enough, had they not received so many buffs elsewhere, and spiced it up with great traits and relics.
Hopefully we will see either a tune down in chapter approved, or a tune up for the previous codcies.

100% agree! We ork players now have to deal with these imperial players for month s until we get a codex which will be underwhelming and disappointing. Then we'll have to deal with a few more years of it untill fans start to design their own balanced codex, get a cease and desist from gw and ork players go underground playing illegal fan games of 40k and gw slowly removes orks for not being grim and dark enough. We will be hunted for sport by gw store managers!

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Aah, good to see the same old complainers are out in force, stating that the Guard are going to br brokenly OP. I think the word they are actually looking for is 'competitive' and 'not underpowered', maybe even 'balanced'.
Although to be fair, these are the people whom classify 'broken' as 'my unit of uberkilly marine fanwank cant wipe it out in turn 1', so there is that to consider.

Alright, I'm saying it's broken as a Skitarii and Necron player.

Ball is in your court.

As someone who plays Marines(three different flavors because I have no self-control) but not Imperial Soup Marines and Skitarii, I say it's broken as well.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Aah, good to see the same old complainers are out in force, stating that the Guard are going to br brokenly OP. I think the word they are actually looking for is 'competitive' and 'not underpowered', maybe even 'balanced'.
Although to be fair, these are the people whom classify 'broken' as 'my unit of uberkilly marine fanwank cant wipe it out in turn 1', so there is that to consider.

Alright, I'm saying it's broken as a Skitarii and Necron player.

Ball is in your court.

As someone who plays Marines(three different flavors because I have no self-control) but not Imperial Soup Marines and Skitarii, I say it's broken as well.

As an Imperial Guard and Necron player, the codex is certainly broken.

I just want to know the thought process of removing SHV of their to hit penalty (which made sense), but then increasing the reliability of their shots on a decent portion of them (of which I am jealous of), WHILE dropping their points.

Why the point decrease? What is the point of Imperial Knights now?

 Quickjager wrote:
I just want to know the thought process of removing SHV of their to hit penalty (which made sense), but then increasing the reliability of their shots on a decent portion of them (of which I am jealous of), WHILE dropping their points.

Why the point decrease? What is the point of Imperial Knights now?

Imperial Knights are still usable alternatives though, even if they're not "quite" up to the same standard.

Meanwhile, in Xenotown, Eldar Wraithknights had their stats nerfed, while having their points cost almost doubled, so they are now totally unplayable.

And Ork Stompas...
You remember when Indiana Jones was a great and beloved movie trilogy, and then George Lucas dug up Indy's body, painted him up like a whore, and defiled him over and over and released the sex-tape as "The Crystal Skull"? Pretty much what the Orks had done to them.


So yeh, I have to agree, I don't understand why they gave superheavies (sorry, I mean *Imperial* superheavies) a buff, while making them cheaper, and then did the exact opposite with all the other army's big stuff regardless of whether it was necessary or not.

Niiru wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
I just want to know the thought process of removing SHV of their to hit penalty (which made sense), but then increasing the reliability of their shots on a decent portion of them (of which I am jealous of), WHILE dropping their points.

Why the point decrease? What is the point of Imperial Knights now?

Imperial Knights are still usable alternatives though, even if they're not "quite" up to the same standard.

Meanwhile, in Xenotown, Eldar Wraithknights had their stats nerfed, while having their points cost almost doubled, so they are now totally unplayable.

And Ork Stompas...
You remember when Indiana Jones was a great and beloved movie trilogy, and then George Lucas dug up Indy's body, painted him up like a whore, and defiled him over and over and released the sex-tape as "The Crystal Skull"? Pretty much what the Orks had done to them.


So yeh, I have to agree, I don't understand why they gave superheavies (sorry, I mean *Imperial* superheavies) a buff, while making them cheaper, and then did the exact opposite with all the other army's big stuff regardless of whether it was necessary or not.

Comparing two Indices to a not-released Codex, though. What if the upcoming Eldar Codex and the eventual Ork Codex brings them up to an equally competitive level?

Darsath wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Aah, good to see the same old complainers are out in force, stating that the Guard are going to br brokenly OP. I think the word they are actually looking for is 'competitive' and 'not underpowered', maybe even 'balanced'.
Although to be fair, these are the people whom classify 'broken' as 'my unit of uberkilly marine fanwank cant wipe it out in turn 1', so there is that to consider.

Alright, I'm saying it's broken as a Skitarii and Necron player.

Ball is in your court.

As someone who plays Marines(three different flavors because I have no self-control) but not Imperial Soup Marines and Skitarii, I say it's broken as well.

As an Imperial Guard and Necron player, the codex is certainly broken.

I think a lot of Guard players are legitimately afraid they will be this edition's Eldar. If I was a Guard player, I would be concerned about whether or not people will play against me. But don't worry, Eldar are next so you might be off the hook as being the undisputed top tier army.

They do seem to mess up Eldar for the most part, huh? Even at their worst they were maybe upper-mid tier.

Well, except for index craftworld eldar which was fairly bad. Ynnari and Harlequins have been the only particularly strong eldar... so far.

It honestly remains to be seen if IG is a one off power spike or the start of actual creep. Or the first 5 codices were just kinda bad, with the later ones having more thought out into them.

Just watched the rather epic Death Guard v Astra Militarum battle report on Table Top Tactics. Guard won... by 1 point. Was nice to see some of the new orders and stratagems being used. There is no denying that there are a good few powerful choices and options but there is nothing I have seen yet that would make me say it is any more viable than any of the other Codexes we've seen so far.

 Hollow wrote:
Just watched the rather epic Death Guard v Astra Militarum battle report on Table Top Tactics. Guard won... by 1 point. Was nice to see some of the new orders and stratagems being used. There is no denying that there are a good few powerful choices and options but there is nothing I have seen yet that would make me say it is any more viable than any of the other Codexes we've seen so far.

Well... I guess we now know that what may be one of the worst possible DG lists I could imagine isn't that much behind a merely bad IG list. So that's uh... that's a thing.

If you wanna give any details (I don't have the attention span to watch a four hour video that closely) feel free, I'd love more information on how the DG player even got that close.

SilverAlien wrote:
Well, except for index craftworld eldar which was fairly bad. Ynnari and Harlequins have been the only particularly strong eldar... so far.

It honestly remains to be seen if IG is a one off power spike or the start of actual creep. Or the first 5 codices were just kinda bad, with the later ones having more thought out into them.

That is what I am afraid of. They could try to swing the pendulum of Eldar power back toward the middle and overshoot. I am very much not happy with Eldar being pretty bad. I just don't want to see them go hilariously overpowered in response.

One thing that is annoying me about some sects of the fandom is that people bring up past editions and power level as a justification for armies being good or bad in the current edition. Yes, Guard wasn't good in 6/7e, but making them OP like they are now (even before the Codex) is not the solution any more than nerfing Eldar into the dirt because 6/7e. I shouldn't HAVE to bring Guilliman with my Crimson Fists to be competitive with Guard. It doesn't help that Imperial Fists have the worst Chapter Tactics, a mediocre Strategem, and Crimson Fists have a terrible Warlord Trait (even their relic is a bit blah).

Hopefully Chapter Approved fixes things.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
None of the codices have been mediocre, but none of them have raised the power level bar past where it was in the Indexes.

Space Marines did, and did so enormously.

Niiru wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
I just want to know the thought process of removing SHV of their to hit penalty (which made sense), but then increasing the reliability of their shots on a decent portion of them (of which I am jealous of), WHILE dropping their points.

Why the point decrease? What is the point of Imperial Knights now?

Imperial Knights are still usable alternatives though, even if they're not "quite" up to the same standard.

Meanwhile, in Xenotown, Eldar Wraithknights had their stats nerfed, while having their points cost almost doubled, so they are now totally unplayable.

The entire Tau army barring the Commander and drones would like a word with you.

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
I just want to know the thought process of removing SHV of their to hit penalty (which made sense), but then increasing the reliability of their shots on a decent portion of them (of which I am jealous of), WHILE dropping their points.

Why the point decrease? What is the point of Imperial Knights now?

Imperial Knights are still usable alternatives though, even if they're not "quite" up to the same standard.

Meanwhile, in Xenotown, Eldar Wraithknights had their stats nerfed, while having their points cost almost doubled, so they are now totally unplayable.

The entire Tau army barring the Commander and drones would like a word with you.

Total nonsense. All T'au need are a few point reductions. That's literally it.

 Hollow wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
I just want to know the thought process of removing SHV of their to hit penalty (which made sense), but then increasing the reliability of their shots on a decent portion of them (of which I am jealous of), WHILE dropping their points.

Why the point decrease? What is the point of Imperial Knights now?

Imperial Knights are still usable alternatives though, even if they're not "quite" up to the same standard.

Meanwhile, in Xenotown, Eldar Wraithknights had their stats nerfed, while having their points cost almost doubled, so they are now totally unplayable.

The entire Tau army barring the Commander and drones would like a word with you.

Total nonsense. All T'au need are a few point reductions. That's literally it.

The markerlight streamlining seriously broke them so they'd also need a rework.

Would need to do a bit more than tweak pts values to create a clear, effective break between Crisis suit squads and Commanders.

Loss of JSJ is a tough pill to swallow.

Pts tweaks would go a long way to fixing Tau, but there are some underlying issues and loss of flavor/theme to address.

GhostRecon wrote:

 Hollow wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
I just want to know the thought process of removing SHV of their to hit penalty (which made sense), but then increasing the reliability of their shots on a decent portion of them (of which I am jealous of), WHILE dropping their points.

Why the point decrease? What is the point of Imperial Knights now?

Imperial Knights are still usable alternatives though, even if they're not "quite" up to the same standard.

Meanwhile, in Xenotown, Eldar Wraithknights had their stats nerfed, while having their points cost almost doubled, so they are now totally unplayable.

The entire Tau army barring the Commander and drones would like a word with you.

Total nonsense. All T'au need are a few point reductions. That's literally it.

The markerlight streamlining seriously broke them so they'd also need a rework.

Would need to do a bit more than tweak pts values to create a clear, effective break between Crisis suit squads and Commanders.

Loss of JSJ is a tough pill to swallow.

Pts tweaks would go a long way to fixing Tau, but there are some underlying issues and loss of flavor/theme to address.

My biggest issue is it is increasingly the case that Tau "unique" features have been spread out among other armies, the latest being cadians can replicate the highest impact parts of the markerlight table in a sort of similar manner with their stratagem. I don't really see how they can make their basic rules different to what can be done with other armies to a greater or lesser degree without pulling something out of a magic hat.

 Melissia wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
None of the codices have been mediocre, but none of them have raised the power level bar past where it was in the Indexes.

Space Marines did, and did so enormously.

Guilliman existed before the codex, and the two major new power players in C:SM (Raven Guard and Salamanders) both don't get any benefit out of him. And none of these things are superior than Index Guard, so... my point stands.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Guilliman existed before the codex, and the two major new power players in C:SM (Raven Guard and Salamanders) both don't get any benefit out of him. And none of these things are superior than Index Guard, so... my point stands.

Funny you should mention RG and Sallies; both of them got a massive power boost out of the codex, in fact I would say they've been resurgent BECAUSE of the massive power boost the codex gave them. Along with across-the-board points reductions and generally better rules, they got solid bonus rules for free plus good stratagems and relics.

A Space Marine player playing off the index is flat out weaker than the one playing off the codex, and noticeably so. So no, your point doesn't stand.

 Melissia wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Guilliman existed before the codex, and the two major new power players in C:SM (Raven Guard and Salamanders) both don't get any benefit out of him. And none of these things are superior than Index Guard, so... my point stands.

Funny you should mention RG and Sallies; both of them got a massive power boost out of the codex, in fact I would say they've been resurgent BECAUSE of the massive power boost the codex gave them. Along with across-the-board points reductions and generally better rules, they got solid bonus rules for free plus good stratagems and relics.

A Space Marine player playing off the index is flat out weaker than the one playing off the codex, and noticeably so, and if you had paid any attention to the differences you'd have noticed that. So no, your point doesn't stand, it's a point made out of ignorance.

You're arguing against a point I didn't make. Space Marines got better than they were in the Index, obviously, but they didn't get better than the best faction at the time of the C:SM's publication. Space Marines needed some adjustments upwards (especially, y'know, non-Ultramarines) and the adjustments were thankfully reserved enough that they didn't come out of it clearly on top of the pack, merely "very good". The same can be said for the CSM codex.

Personally I consider both Marine codexes to be great successes because things that weren't good got better while the things that were already good stayed the same. I would have nerfed Guilliman if it was up to me, of course, but I guess it can't be perfect.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
You're arguing against a point I didn't make.

Actually, you're arguing against a point I didn't make, because apparently you didn't read my post before responding.

In fact, you're arguing for a point YOU didn't make, because the post I responded to didn't even mention Guilliman, you moved the goalposts after the fact. The post I responded to had nothing to do with him. You claimed, and I quote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
None of the codices have been mediocre, but none of them have raised the power level bar past where it was in the Indexes.

This is objectively false. Space Marines, the very first codex, raised the power level bar well beyond what it was at in the indexes, and Marines not represented in with a codex (BA, SW, DA) still suffer from being weaker than the codex marines by a long shot.

My original point was "none of the codexes are better than Guard was in its Index version, so the top end of what's powerful has not risen since the Indexes." I'd like to believe you read that since you took the time to crop it out of the quote, but...

 Arachnofiend wrote:
My original point was "none of the codexes are better than Guard was in its Index version, so the top end of what's powerful has not risen since the Indexes." I'd like to believe you read that since you took the time to crop it out of the quote, but...

I'd actually argue that Marines in their codex are as powerful as a pure Guard army-- a lot of the time, the problem people have is being unwilling to adapt to a new metagame; it was perfectly possible to completely wipe out a conscript meatshield squad in turn one or two (depending on deployment style and map layout), and then use that to break through their lines and destroy their artillery, for example. However, most hyper-competitive players aren't using pure Guard armies, but people still end up calling them Guard armies regardless. I think the vogue term right now is "Imperial Soup".