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The rumours are that Plasma remains 7 points for 4+ BS models and 13 for 3+ BS models. A pretty good compromise at least in my opinion.

 Galas wrote:
The rumours are that Plasma remains 7 points for 4+ BS models and 13 for 3+ BS models. A pretty good compromise at least in my opinion.

I guess. It's sort of weird still -- were Veterans with plasma overpowered? Surely everyone gets that the issue was that Scions could deep strike.

Like I've said before, the biggest problem with Conscripts is that they hold the *exact same* strategical slot as regular Guardsmen, and since wounds are worth more than offensive value in that slot/job, they come out on top every time.

The solution would be to *remove* them from that job. And my immediate suggestion was and is to not have them be regular troop choices. Do not allow them to count towards Troop choices, making a 9 troop army trivial to create.

Their niche is supposed to be expendability, but at the moment they're doing so much more, not the least being that they allow for a tripple Batallion in every army at a trivial cost.

Even with regular Guardsmen it would be easy to make 9 troop choices, but at least you'd have to tax that extra point per guy.

Dionysodorus wrote:

 Galas wrote:
The rumours are that Plasma remains 7 points for 4+ BS models and 13 for 3+ BS models. A pretty good compromise at least in my opinion.

I guess. It's sort of weird still -- were Veterans with plasma overpowered? Surely everyone gets that the issue was that Scions could deep strike.

I think at this point Veterans have no place in Imperial Guard. I think GW should merge Stormtroopers with Veterans. Basically giving Tempestus Scions the <regiment keyword> and lowering their cost 2ppm without deepstrike (So, +2ppm for deepstrike like Primaris Reivers have) and allowing them to take the Veteran weapons options. They'll basically come with default caparace armour, but as I see that every IG player wants their veterans to have it, I think theres no problem with that.

 Purifier wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Burning CPs is an attached cost though, even if said CPs were earned by the conscripts to begin with.
After all, if part of the issue is just how many CPs the Ig player has, making him waste a few on getting his conscripts to "probably" work like they used it-is a nerf.

As I said, its not huge, but its not small either. its a decent attempt that may or may not pan out.
Better than old GW balancing (total randomness), or blizzard balancing (it was OP? lets make it utterly unplayable instead)-you take it down a peg, but not all the way down, test the waters with the new level and if needed you adjust again.

And the ability to Send In The Next Wave. Nerf or buff? Then other stratagems that affect them, nerf or buff? And the Regimental buffs that affect them, nerf or buff? That's right, all buffs. Yes, buffs that everyone is getting, but Conscripts were doing GREAT right out of the index, and all in all, they're better from the Codex than from the Index.

To be fair, other factions have received a similar stratagem to Send in the Next Wave - I think Chaos Marines can recycle Cultists and a certain Admech forgeworld can recycle battle servitors. Also, unless the Valhallan player has a Commissar sitting in the far far backfield, morale losses on them will be pretty bad, even with the Valhallan special rule of halving losses.

That said, I think the buffs outpace the nerfs, and personally think the simplest fix at this point would be to bump Conscripts to 4 and Infantry to 5, and keep Veterans where they are in points. Without the doctrines, strategems, etc they got, I think the nerf would have been enough, but with them factored in, they just need that little bump to make them less of an auto take while still remaining effective.

kurhanik wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Burning CPs is an attached cost though, even if said CPs were earned by the conscripts to begin with.
After all, if part of the issue is just how many CPs the Ig player has, making him waste a few on getting his conscripts to "probably" work like they used it-is a nerf.

As I said, its not huge, but its not small either. its a decent attempt that may or may not pan out.
Better than old GW balancing (total randomness), or blizzard balancing (it was OP? lets make it utterly unplayable instead)-you take it down a peg, but not all the way down, test the waters with the new level and if needed you adjust again.

And the ability to Send In The Next Wave. Nerf or buff? Then other stratagems that affect them, nerf or buff? And the Regimental buffs that affect them, nerf or buff? That's right, all buffs. Yes, buffs that everyone is getting, but Conscripts were doing GREAT right out of the index, and all in all, they're better from the Codex than from the Index.

To be fair, other factions have received a similar stratagem to Send in the Next Wave - I think Chaos Marines can recycle Cultists and a certain Admech forgeworld can recycle battle servitors. Also, unless the Valhallan player has a Commissar sitting in the far far backfield, morale losses on them will be pretty bad, even with the Valhallan special rule of halving losses.

That said, I think the buffs outpace the nerfs, and personally think the simplest fix at this point would be to bump Conscripts to 4 and Infantry to 5, and keep Veterans where they are in points. Without the doctrines, strategems, etc they got, I think the nerf would have been enough, but with them factored in, they just need that little bump to make them less of an auto take while still remaining effective.

Then you've still got the problem that Conscripts and Guardsmen are essentially built for the same role, and they will always compete with eachother for it. Why have the best and arguably the second best bubblewrap in the game in the same army, competing for the same spot?
I think Guardsmen, not Conscripts, should be the fighting base of the AM army. As such, the huuuuge incentive for taking conscripts over Guardsment that exists today needs to be removed. Making them inelligable for the Troop slot would make them a useful pick still, but would force you to mainly pick Guardsmen for your bubblewrap if you want that basically free 9 extra CP.

and 1) I already mentioned that others got those things, but others didn't have a unit in the Index that is outpacing units released in codexes, even WITH the buffs that Conscripts are now getting. and 2) why would anyone run without a Commissar? He's like half the survivability of every unit of Conscripts he's close to.

There used to be a requirement to have at least one infantry platoon (not just a squad) for each conscript or armored fist squad.
Bringing platoons back, along with those requirements, would cut down on how many troop choices you could easily afford, and how many conscripts squads you can have, but suggesting a change like that is a little late now.


I'm just glad the buffed a lot of the other choices in the codex, so you can build an effective army without using conscripts at all.

 Purifier wrote:


Then you've still got the problem that Conscripts and Guardsmen are essentially built for the same role, and they will always compete with eachother for it. Why have the best and arguably the second best bubblewrap in the game in the same army, competing for the same spot?
I think Guardsmen, not Conscripts, should be the fighting base of the AM army. As such, the huuuuge incentive for taking conscripts over Guardsment that exists today needs to be removed. Making them inelligable for the Troop slot would make them a useful pick still, but would force you to mainly pick Guardsmen for your bubblewrap if you want that basically free 9 extra CP.

and 1) I already mentioned that others got those things, but others didn't have a unit in the Index that is outpacing units released in codexes, even WITH the buffs that Conscripts are now getting. and 2) why would anyone run without a Commissar? He's like half the survivability of every unit of Conscripts he's close to.

What I meant with Commissar was that with Send in the Next Wave, you need to place them in your own deployment zone, within 6" of the board edge. Depending on how you play, your Commissars may be all much farther forward than this with Infantry Squads, Veterans, or other Conscript Squads trying to hold the line. Unless you keep one in the far back field twiddling his thumbs for half the game, the respawned Conscripts won't be in execution range.

Does anyone else think it's funny that it's a bad thing not to be in range to get executed? No? OK, I will shut up now . . . .

Seriously though I personally don't use conscripts, it's guardsmen or nothing in my IG force for the troop slot. I have over 100 guardsmen and I run them much like the old platoon rules. 3 squads of 10, 1 small group of hq's that "run" them. 3 groups like that. It works. And it dies. But it works.

Same with scions vs vets. I use vets, it's just what I have and how it works.

Panzergraf wrote:
There used to be a requirement to have at least one infantry platoon (not just a squad) for each conscript or armored fist squad.
Bringing platoons back, along with those requirements, would cut down on how many troop choices you could easily afford, and how many conscripts squads you can have, but suggesting a change like that is a little late now.

Not necessarily; they made big FOC/Org changes in detachments with an FAQ before, to fix Command Squad spam so they can make them a non-Troop choice like Purifier is advocating again. The problem appears to be that they're waiting/mulling additional balance changes to AM as part of Chapter Approved which is why we've seen almost nothing balance-wise in the latest FAQs.

Panzergraf wrote:
I'm just glad the buffed a lot of the other choices in the codex, so you can build an effective army without using conscripts at all.

This is the part that irritates me and why I brought mention to calling the Codex as a whole broken - without Conscripts there are lots of good options, but I severely doubt the IG Codex would receive as much angst as it is now if Conscripts had been nerfed into the ground or even removed. I'm just glad more of the rest of the army is fieldable again so my LRBTs and Mech Infantry might see some use.

kurhanik wrote:

 Purifier wrote:


Then you've still got the problem that Conscripts and Guardsmen are essentially built for the same role, and they will always compete with eachother for it. Why have the best and arguably the second best bubblewrap in the game in the same army, competing for the same spot?
I think Guardsmen, not Conscripts, should be the fighting base of the AM army. As such, the huuuuge incentive for taking conscripts over Guardsment that exists today needs to be removed. Making them inelligable for the Troop slot would make them a useful pick still, but would force you to mainly pick Guardsmen for your bubblewrap if you want that basically free 9 extra CP.

and 1) I already mentioned that others got those things, but others didn't have a unit in the Index that is outpacing units released in codexes, even WITH the buffs that Conscripts are now getting. and 2) why would anyone run without a Commissar? He's like half the survivability of every unit of Conscripts he's close to.

What I meant with Commissar was that with Send in the Next Wave, you need to place them in your own deployment zone, within 6" of the board edge. Depending on how you play, your Commissars may be all much farther forward than this with Infantry Squads, Veterans, or other Conscript Squads trying to hold the line. Unless you keep one in the far back field twiddling his thumbs for half the game, the respawned Conscripts won't be in execution range.

Commissars aren't the only way to get the boost for Valhallans. Pietrov's Mark 5(replacing a Bolt Pistol) turns any character into a Commissar.

Not only that, but Valhallans 1/2 the number of models that flee nativity, buying you time to just advance up to be in range of a commissar.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Not only that, but Valhallans 1/2 the number of models that flee nativity, buying you time to just advance up to be in range of a commissar.

I keep envisioning a relay race of Conscripts being handed off from Commissar to Commissar.

Purifier wrote:Like I've said before, the biggest problem with Conscripts is that they hold the *exact same* strategical slot as regular Guardsmen, and since wounds are worth more than offensive value in that slot/job, they come out on top every time.

The solution would be to *remove* them from that job. And my immediate suggestion was and is to not have them be regular troop choices. Do not allow them to count towards Troop choices, making a 9 troop army trivial to create.

Their niche is supposed to be expendability, but at the moment they're doing so much more, not the least being that they allow for a tripple Batallion in every army at a trivial cost.

Even with regular Guardsmen it would be easy to make 9 troop choices, but at least you'd have to tax that extra point per guy.

So what, move conscripts to heavy support? Elite? What about other troops that are mundane yet effective such as super durable Necron warriors or super shooty Tau firewarriors, or does your arbitrary requirements for what counts as troops not qualify these units? It's easier to make a 9 troop detachment with regular guardsmen so your proposed fix actually doesn't address your proposed problem.

GhostRecon wrote:but I severely doubt the IG Codex would receive as much angst as it is now if Conscripts had been nerfed into the ground or even removed.

You'd get a lot of angst from IG players after you strip away a cornerstone unit and one of the most fluffy options in the book. Consider the reaction if CSM lost cultists or SM lost scouts just because players didn't want to adapt to a new edition and put down their grav/plasma/melta and pick up a heavy bolter.

It's comical how unreal some of the suggestions have been, most of these suggestions make GW seem to be the height of game balance competence by comparison. Probably the only suggestion I've seen that doesn't seem to be inspired by a meth-addled-rage is the requirement to have a platoon for every conscript squad, which should also apply to commissars as it did in ages past.

 MarsNZ wrote:

Purifier wrote:Like I've said before, the biggest problem with Conscripts is that they hold the *exact same* strategical slot as regular Guardsmen, and since wounds are worth more than offensive value in that slot/job, they come out on top every time.

The solution would be to *remove* them from that job. And my immediate suggestion was and is to not have them be regular troop choices. Do not allow them to count towards Troop choices, making a 9 troop army trivial to create.

Their niche is supposed to be expendability, but at the moment they're doing so much more, not the least being that they allow for a tripple Batallion in every army at a trivial cost.

Even with regular Guardsmen it would be easy to make 9 troop choices, but at least you'd have to tax that extra point per guy.

So what, move conscripts to heavy support? Elite? What about other troops that are mundane yet effective such as super durable Necron warriors or super shooty Tau firewarriors, or does your arbitrary requirements for what counts as troops not qualify these units? It's easier to make a 9 troop detachment with regular guardsmen so your proposed fix actually doesn't address your proposed problem.

Easy one. Still troop, just give it a rule saying conscripts don't fill the obligatory slots in a detachment.

 Mulletdude wrote:

 MarsNZ wrote:

Purifier wrote:Like I've said before, the biggest problem with Conscripts is that they hold the *exact same* strategical slot as regular Guardsmen, and since wounds are worth more than offensive value in that slot/job, they come out on top every time.

The solution would be to *remove* them from that job. And my immediate suggestion was and is to not have them be regular troop choices. Do not allow them to count towards Troop choices, making a 9 troop army trivial to create.

Their niche is supposed to be expendability, but at the moment they're doing so much more, not the least being that they allow for a tripple Batallion in every army at a trivial cost.

Even with regular Guardsmen it would be easy to make 9 troop choices, but at least you'd have to tax that extra point per guy.

So what, move conscripts to heavy support? Elite? What about other troops that are mundane yet effective such as super durable Necron warriors or super shooty Tau firewarriors, or does your arbitrary requirements for what counts as troops not qualify these units? It's easier to make a 9 troop detachment with regular guardsmen so your proposed fix actually doesn't address your proposed problem.

Easy one. Still troop, just give it a rule saying conscripts don't fill the obligatory slots in a detachment.

So do Guardians get this? Scouts? Anything else that's considered a "Conscript-esque" unit?

There is no real fix. Conscripts have been changed in a good way, move on and find something else to complain about.

I think Conscripts are a failure as long as they are better than the rank and file guardsman. Conscripts should have literally been meat shields with a las rifle. No special rules, no orders, nothing. Just dirt cheap and scared of the commissar.
Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if we see them lose their ability to hold objectives down the road since they are an unorganized rabble. At least that would make the Guardsmen needed in the Guard army.

 MarsNZ wrote:
one of the most fluffy options in the book.

But are they really?

The conscripts as we know them now were introduced in the Cadian army list in Codex: Eye of Terror in... 2003? as White Shields - specifically Cadian child soldiers.

Other than those, guard conscripts are just guardsmen. It's not like anyones models would be useless if they were removed from the Codex either, as they could just be fielded as regular guard squads.

Panzergraf wrote:
Other than those, guard conscripts are just guardsmen. It's not like anyones models would be useless if they were removed from the Codex either, as they could just be fielded as regular guard squads.

I've always thought they should just remove Conscripts all together.

Did Penal Legion make it into the index/codex? Honestly not sure

 MarsNZ wrote:

Purifier wrote:Like I've said before, the biggest problem with Conscripts is that they hold the *exact same* strategical slot as regular Guardsmen, and since wounds are worth more than offensive value in that slot/job, they come out on top every time.

The solution would be to *remove* them from that job. And my immediate suggestion was and is to not have them be regular troop choices. Do not allow them to count towards Troop choices, making a 9 troop army trivial to create.

Their niche is supposed to be expendability, but at the moment they're doing so much more, not the least being that they allow for a tripple Batallion in every army at a trivial cost.

Even with regular Guardsmen it would be easy to make 9 troop choices, but at least you'd have to tax that extra point per guy.

So what, move conscripts to heavy support? Elite? What about other troops that are mundane yet effective such as super durable Necron warriors or super shooty Tau firewarriors, or does your arbitrary requirements for what counts as troops not qualify these units?.

You've completely missed the point. It's the internal balance between guardsmen and conscripts that I want to fix. And yiur examples are at worst as bad as guardsmen, and are all beat out by conscripts. "It's easier with guardsmen!" Yeah, but not NEARLY as preferable. If you had to use guardsmen to fill slots they would see proper use instead of just being the choice for people that don't have enough models for conscripts.

And there is nothing arbitrary about my suggestion. Show me the bubblewrap unit that is performing at the level of conscripts and that is outperforming the basic choice for its army. Firewarriors aren't a conscript analogue, kroot are. Firewarriors are the equivalent to guardsmen. And if kroot were being picked over firewarriors in every competitive list at 3pp then yeah, I'd suggest the same for them. It's about making a place for both units, instead of making one simply outperform the other.

 Galas wrote:
I think at this point Veterans have no place in Imperial Guard. I think GW should merge Stormtroopers with Veterans. Basically giving Tempestus Scions the <regiment keyword> and lowering their cost 2ppm without deepstrike (So, +2ppm for deepstrike like Primaris Reivers have) and allowing them to take the Veteran weapons options. They'll basically come with default caparace armour, but as I see that every IG player wants their veterans to have it, I think theres no problem with that.

You could do that with about half the options in every Codex tho. Not saying you're wrong, but clearly that's not how GW write their rules.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Burning CPs is an attached cost though, even if said CPs were earned by the conscripts to begin with.
After all, if part of the issue is just how many CPs the Ig player has, making him waste a few on getting his conscripts to "probably" work like they used it-is a nerf.

As I said, its not huge, but its not small either. its a decent attempt that may or may not pan out.
Better than old GW balancing (total randomness), or blizzard balancing (it was OP? lets make it utterly unplayable instead)-you take it down a peg, but not all the way down, test the waters with the new level and if needed you adjust again.

And the ability to Send In The Next Wave. Nerf or buff? Then other stratagems that affect them, nerf or buff? And the Regimental buffs that affect them, nerf or buff? That's right, all buffs. Yes, buffs that everyone is getting, but Conscripts were doing GREAT right out of the index, and all in all, they're better from the Codex than from the Index.

Part of this is the generic problem with guard: An already stellar, well-performing army got a TON better across the board, and even the nerfs to the overused stuff aren't crippling and came with buffs (as you point out).

So like Eldar in 7th Edition, in other words. Sure, they got "nerfed" in that they lost access to Mantle of the Laughing God and Malefic Daemonology, Monofilament Weapons were no longer +1 Strength vs vehicles, and Serpent Shields became one-use, but "everyone Bike gets a Scatter Laser", D proliferation and Flickerjump more than made up for it.

This is why I don't call it Codex Creep so much as Codex Favoritism.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Mulletdude wrote:

 MarsNZ wrote:

Purifier wrote:Like I've said before, the biggest problem with Conscripts is that they hold the *exact same* strategical slot as regular Guardsmen, and since wounds are worth more than offensive value in that slot/job, they come out on top every time.

The solution would be to *remove* them from that job. And my immediate suggestion was and is to not have them be regular troop choices. Do not allow them to count towards Troop choices, making a 9 troop army trivial to create.

Their niche is supposed to be expendability, but at the moment they're doing so much more, not the least being that they allow for a tripple Batallion in every army at a trivial cost.

Even with regular Guardsmen it would be easy to make 9 troop choices, but at least you'd have to tax that extra point per guy.

So what, move conscripts to heavy support? Elite? What about other troops that are mundane yet effective such as super durable Necron warriors or super shooty Tau firewarriors, or does your arbitrary requirements for what counts as troops not qualify these units? It's easier to make a 9 troop detachment with regular guardsmen so your proposed fix actually doesn't address your proposed problem.

Easy one. Still troop, just give it a rule saying conscripts don't fill the obligatory slots in a detachment.

So do Guardians get this? Scouts? Anything else that's considered a "Conscript-esque" unit?

There is no real fix. Conscripts have been changed in a good way, move on and find something else to complain about.

Lol, saying that because people think conscripts need a nerf of some kind, that Guardians should get the same nerf.

Guardians are already among the worst troops choices possible, to the point where Eldar only have one vaguely usable choice in Rangers... and they're a Sniper unit, widely held as the most pointless units in the whole of 8th edition. If Guardians get nerfed any more, I might start proxying them as grots.

 MagicJuggler wrote:

This is why I don't call it Codex Creep so much as Codex Favoritism.

Pretty good explanation for this.

Guardians are terrible because they're basically Veterans that are 8 points a model. That's way too expensive for their statline.

Granted, they have battle focus, an extra 1" of movement, and 1 better WS. But their weapon selection is much worse, and the stuff they do have is not worth an extra 2ppm on such a fragile model. Especially since they only have 1 S3 AP0 attack to use that WS on, making that stat basically a waste for them. Guardians should only be 6 points, 7 at most. Definitely not 8.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Mulletdude wrote:

 MarsNZ wrote:

Purifier wrote:Like I've said before, the biggest problem with Conscripts is that they hold the *exact same* strategical slot as regular Guardsmen, and since wounds are worth more than offensive value in that slot/job, they come out on top every time.

The solution would be to *remove* them from that job. And my immediate suggestion was and is to not have them be regular troop choices. Do not allow them to count towards Troop choices, making a 9 troop army trivial to create.

Their niche is supposed to be expendability, but at the moment they're doing so much more, not the least being that they allow for a tripple Batallion in every army at a trivial cost.

Even with regular Guardsmen it would be easy to make 9 troop choices, but at least you'd have to tax that extra point per guy.

So what, move conscripts to heavy support? Elite? What about other troops that are mundane yet effective such as super durable Necron warriors or super shooty Tau firewarriors, or does your arbitrary requirements for what counts as troops not qualify these units? It's easier to make a 9 troop detachment with regular guardsmen so your proposed fix actually doesn't address your proposed problem.

Easy one. Still troop, just give it a rule saying conscripts don't fill the obligatory slots in a detachment.

So do Guardians get this? Scouts? Anything else that's considered a "Conscript-esque" unit?

There is no real fix. Conscripts have been changed in a good way, move on and find something else to complain about.

If there is no real fix, then they haven't been fixed. This is a hill you and the rest of the IG players saying conscripts are fine can die on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SideshowLucifer wrote:
I think Conscripts are a failure as long as they are better than the rank and file guardsman. Conscripts should have literally been meat shields with a las rifle. No special rules, no orders, nothing. Just dirt cheap and scared of the commissar.
Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if we see them lose their ability to hold objectives down the road since they are an unorganized rabble. At least that would make the Guardsmen needed in the Guard army.

I could see Conscripts becoming even CHEAPER if...

-they got a 7+
-they no longer were Obj. Secured
-Commissar instead of making them immune, made it so they lose 2D6 LESS to morale
-No orders
-40 per unit required
-No rapidfire

If they received the above nerfs and got a point cheaper MAYBE they would be balanced.

At the very least their current points should have them be at 6+ armor save and make them lose access to orders period

 ross-128 wrote:
Guardians are terrible because they're basically Veterans that are 8 points a model. That's way too expensive for their statline.

Granted, they have battle focus, an extra 1" of movement, and 1 better WS. But their weapon selection is much worse, and the stuff they do have is not worth an extra 2ppm on such a fragile model. Especially since they only have 1 S3 AP0 attack to use that WS on, making that stat basically a waste for them. Guardians should only be 6 points, 7 at most. Definitely not 8.

I would agree that Guardians are nothing special, but I'd note that basically all Eldar non-jump infantry pay a Wave Serpent premium. With the sole and merely possible exception of Dark Reapers and Wraithguard (who also happen to be the most expensive), it is silly to deploy any of them on the table. You'd never just take Guardians or Dire Avengers or Howling Banshees or Striking Scorpions or Fire Dragons and deploy them normally, because basically every Eldar squad is a Command Squad loaded with (generally short-range) special weapons and they have no ablative wounds. Even Fire Dragons are a solid unit only because they have the option to ride in a Wave Serpent. Probably even Dark Reapers should start in a Serpent to avoid a turn 1 alpha strike. It'd be hard to justify Guardians even at 6 points if all they were good for was a heavy weapon and then some (very respectable) 12" shooting, with no transport option (except insofar as lists absolutely need screeners and if 6 point screeners are all you have then 6 point screeners are what you'll use). But 6 point Guardians are a really appealing option as a Wave Serpent death squad.

Niiru wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Mulletdude wrote:

 MarsNZ wrote:

Purifier wrote:Like I've said before, the biggest problem with Conscripts is that they hold the *exact same* strategical slot as regular Guardsmen, and since wounds are worth more than offensive value in that slot/job, they come out on top every time.

The solution would be to *remove* them from that job. And my immediate suggestion was and is to not have them be regular troop choices. Do not allow them to count towards Troop choices, making a 9 troop army trivial to create.

Their niche is supposed to be expendability, but at the moment they're doing so much more, not the least being that they allow for a tripple Batallion in every army at a trivial cost.

Even with regular Guardsmen it would be easy to make 9 troop choices, but at least you'd have to tax that extra point per guy.

So what, move conscripts to heavy support? Elite? What about other troops that are mundane yet effective such as super durable Necron warriors or super shooty Tau firewarriors, or does your arbitrary requirements for what counts as troops not qualify these units? It's easier to make a 9 troop detachment with regular guardsmen so your proposed fix actually doesn't address your proposed problem.

Easy one. Still troop, just give it a rule saying conscripts don't fill the obligatory slots in a detachment.

So do Guardians get this? Scouts? Anything else that's considered a "Conscript-esque" unit?

There is no real fix. Conscripts have been changed in a good way, move on and find something else to complain about.

Lol, saying that because people think conscripts need a nerf of some kind, that Guardians should get the same nerf.

Actually, I'm saying that because Guardians fulfill a similar fluff role to the Conscripts--they're supposed to be the "lolwhywouldyoutakethat" infantry.

Guardians are already among the worst troops choices possible, to the point where Eldar only have one vaguely usable choice in Rangers... and they're a Sniper unit, widely held as the most pointless units in the whole of 8th edition. If Guardians get nerfed any more, I might start proxying them as grots.

It's amazing how everyone whines about Sniper Scouts for Marines and Sniper Drones yet Rangers, a similar unit, are "the most pointless units in the whole of 8th edition".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Quickjager wrote:

If there is no real fix, then they haven't been fixed. This is a hill you and the rest of the IG players saying conscripts are fine can die on.

There is no real fix because there is no real problem beyond Imperial Soup.

End of story. Finished.

I could see Conscripts becoming even CHEAPER if...

-they got a 7+
-they no longer were Obj. Secured
-Commissar instead of making them immune, made it so they lose 2D6 LESS to morale
-No orders
-40 per unit required
-No rapidfire

If they received the above nerfs and got a point cheaper MAYBE they would be balanced.

At the very least their current points should have them be at 6+ armor save and make them lose access to orders period

So do Jetbikes get removed from the ability to get Psyker abilities? Crisis Suits from Markerlights?

I mean, since we're going to start putting in "special exemptions" for specific units we might as well start fixing problems that aren't there.

 Kanluwen wrote:

It's amazing how everyone whines about Sniper Scouts for Marines and Sniper Drones yet Rangers, a similar unit, are "the most pointless units in the whole of 8th edition".

Could you point me to a thread here or on reddit or somewhere where more than like one person is complaining about sniper scouts or sniper drones?

Rangers have the damage output of conscripts at 12+ inches without orders (or now the whole host of potential buffs) while being 2.5 times more efficient to shoot with bolters.

Being able to tickle characters doesn't really change this.

They are comically dire.