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dadamowsky wrote: Don't put up your hope on Graia's dogma too much. While it might be a good tool to withstand, it is also very moody. 1/6 chance is something that can't be really relied on as a srvivability tool when opponent can easily focus down any Skitarii squad. As someone previously noticed, T3 without a solid inv (like Harlequins 4++) is punishing no matter what kind of an after rule you will bring.
T3 with a 4+ save is more survivable against S3 and S4 fire than a T4 6+ save Ork boy that is only 1 point cheaper than a Ranger. And T4 and 3+ save troops are with few exceptions completely overpriced. And that's before factoring in the guaranteed cover bonus from Shroudpsalm/Prepared Positions during the first two turbs (2 CP well spent) or the Stygies -1 to hit (and to a much lesser extend the Graia FnP or Ap -1 immunity from Lucius). That's the thing with 7 PPM Scion equivalents: good firepower, hilariously tough for their points with some defensive buffs and still utterly expendable
4++ or 5++ saves on infantry are overrated IMO, unless they got several wounds or a 2+ or 3+ save as well. It's not like you are shooting lascannons or plasma at them. They keel over easier under small arms fire than 3+ save Skitarii and are also more pricy, while still being T3. Pop their transports, start tossing a bunch of dice their way until they keel over and catch the assault of the surviving Troupes with cheap 35 point ranger or 40 point vanguard units spaced apart so they can't use their 3" move to consolidate into more units.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/09/30 20:42:02
Dark it was, and dire of form
the beast that laid them low
Hrothgar's sharpened frost-forged blade
to deal a fatal blow
he stalked and hunted day and night
and came upon it's lair
With sword and shield Hrothgar fought
and earned the name of slayer
I've had great luck with Metallica vanguard at 500-1000pts, but I seriously doubt their viability as points go up. Especially with the fact that now anything more than a 5 man squad gives up an ITC secondary (marked for death, or whatever it's called) they're 7pl and easily give up the 4 points for it on top of easy kill points and the new "kill two units a turn" objective.
Metallica works well for keeping them mobile but with the 18" range you either have to be stupid aggressive with deployment or hide them for a counterattack. The warlord trait is good, although I rarely use it with vanguard specifically, usually it's what I use to rescue my Onagers and other fire support units.
Red tide would bleed serious points for ITC no matter how you outfit them, but it works fine for casual games. To give you an idea of my league list I'm using at a 1,000pts, this has managed to beat Altaoic Eldar, Smash captain blood Angels with death company/scouts alpha strike, and a few other nasty lists but it's hardly like 1000pts is a good example of what they'll accomplish at 2000. As points go up I'm planning on a castellan, perhaps another Onager, and maybe some Dragoons, Dakkabots, or even more Armigers. The one thing I don't plan on adding more of is the vanguard or rangers, they just can't hang on very long so other than some barebones squads for screening and grabbing objectives I'm not committing to them.
Spoiler:
Dominus-phosphoenix/volkite WLT - ordered efficiency or canticle reroll depending on opponent
Enginseer
X4 Vanguard- x8 men w/2 plasma
Icarus Onager
Super heavy auxiliary
X2 Armigers Warglaives w/stubbers
If you really wanted to commit to them I think you'd need at least 8-10 full squads to have a shot. Anything less is going to get whittled down too fast. If you can hit a tipping point in the 100 model range I think they'll be very difficult to drop with two turns of +3 armor or a first turn strike followed by forcing a shift to shroudpsalm. Whatever you do, they will desperately need support from Icarus Onagers and something designed to kill tanks like a castellan. The plasma vanguard gets is great, but it's not something I would hunt heavy armor with.
'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader
"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell
BTW stygies is likelly to disappear from competitive completely because the "maybe leak" is that all -1 to hit subfactions are becoming "in cover" instead in CA.
Source: on FLG stream Reece mentioned only the -1 subfactions as "not getting the benefit from the new cover strat as they already have cover always". It's a very weird mistake to make because those subfactions are the most important subfactions from their respective armies. I called him out on it and he stopped midsentence and changed topic.
I mean it makes sense. -1 destroys all the 4+ BS armies and 6+ to hit bonus abilities. And cover affect everyone more or less equally. Finally becuase of how strong those subfactions are you rarelly see other ones.
rvd1ofakind wrote: BTW stygies is likelly to disappear from competitive completely because the "maybe leak" is that all -1 to hit subfactions are becoming "in cover" instead in CA.
Source: on FLG stream Reece mentioned only the -1 subfactions as "not getting the benefit from the new cover strat as they already have cover always". It's a very weird mistake to make because those subfactions are the most important subfactions from their respective armies. I called him out on it and he stopped midsentence and changed topic.
I mean it makes sense. -1 destroys all the 4+ BS armies and 6+ to hit bonus abilities. And cover affect everyone more or less equally. Finally becuase of how strong those subfactions are you rarelly see other ones.
And all the game really needs is a natural 6 always being a hit...
EDIT: After an afterthought the -hit shenanigans could really take a nerf. But, if that rumor is correct, then Admech really needs a grounds up rework as there are close no tools left for us - in either survivability or being a threat. A faction whith the only strength of looking good.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/01 08:01:48
There’s no way -1 to hit or -2 to hit will be changed to always in cover. How about melee? In cover again instead of -1? There’s at least a dozen rules that wouldn’t make any sense if that was true. A game with only positive modifiers to hit, while all negative modifiers just count as cover even if you have 3 stacks? And Orks get a special rule that doesn’t actually do anything?
I can explain Reece’s slip: It was a brainfart. Not the first one he’s had, by the way.
Remember Castellan was supposed to go to 700 points in this FAQ and we get ”warlord’s stratagems only” ? Yeah, people have no clue what they’re talking about.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/01 08:13:52
I think just the -1 to hit subfaction trait, e.g. Stygies or Alpha Legion, is targeted with that. These don't apply in melee anyway. Things like Dragoons -1 or flyers -1 would still apply in my opinion.
But it would be such a useless trait for us tbh... There is the new stratagem fror first turn cover if going second and there is shroudpsalm.
If that becomes true it will be once again Mars only...
Yeah, it's just the subfactions. All flyers will still have their -1. And yeah, the -1 never aplied to melee to begin with - it's only outside 12''.
And those subfactions ARE supposed to get a lot worse. Right now the choice is either "the -1 to hit faction" or the "we have the unique character faction":
Ravenguard or Ultramarines
Stygies or Mars
Alpha legion or Black Legion
Alaitoc
Do you see any other ones??? If not - why shouldn't all those -1 to hit get nerfed?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/01 10:08:54
I´m not very familiar with Eldar but I think you see Ultwhe from time to time with their Guardian Bomb, but yeah in all those other cases you are right.
Is just sad that we won´t have a choice anymore... It´s either Mars or go home.
I mean admech SHOULD be a melee dominant army. But they're not. Look at all the canticles. 1 buffs shooting, TJHREE buff close combat. We have:
techpriests who are actually almost better in melee than shooting
punchy bots
vanguard with their -1T in CC aura
breachers
ruststalkers
infiltrators
corps priests
fulg priests
Dragoons...
Purelly shooting wise we only have:
rangers
onagers
destroyers
Dakkabots
balistarii
But all our melee dudes are too slow, too fragile, don't do enough damage...
BTW, I do not consider 12'' range as a shooting unit. I do not consider vanguard a purelly shooting unit either as they have a melee aura and only 18'' range.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/10/01 11:18:46
dadamowsky wrote: Don't put up your hope on Graia's dogma too much. While it might be a good tool to withstand, it is also very moody. 1/6 chance is something that can't be really relied on as a srvivability tool when opponent can easily focus down any Skitarii squad. As someone previously noticed, T3 without a solid inv (like Harlequins 4++) is punishing no matter what kind of an after rule you will bring.
T3 with a 4+ save is more survivable against S3 and S4 fire than a T4 6+ save Ork boy that is only 1 point cheaper than a Ranger. And T4 and 3+ save troops are with few exceptions completely overpriced. And that's before factoring in the guaranteed cover bonus from Shroudpsalm/Prepared Positions during the first two turbs (2 CP well spent) or the Stygies -1 to hit (and to a much lesser extend the Graia FnP or Ap -1 immunity from Lucius). That's the thing with 7 PPM Scion equivalents: good firepower, hilariously tough for their points with some defensive buffs and still utterly expendable
4++ or 5++ saves on infantry are overrated IMO, unless they got several wounds or a 2+ or 3+ save as well. It's not like you are shooting lascannons or plasma at them. They keel over easier under small arms fire than 3+ save Skitarii and are also more pricy, while still being T3. Pop their transports, start tossing a bunch of dice their way until they keel over and catch the assault of the surviving Troupes with cheap 35 point ranger or 40 point vanguard units spaced apart so they can't use their 3" move to consolidate into more units.
It depends on your army comp yes if you mix tanks and infantry they will lascannon the tank but in a pure infantry list they have to shoot at infantry
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/01 15:36:03
So I think this list is competitive now. The FLY charge nerfs are huge. That you can't deepstrike in your best shooting turn 1 is huge. That the best kastelan killers (castellans and smashes and dark eldar) got directly nerfed is huge. Gun castles are back in a big way.
Icarus only got better because you know Eldar flyers will be everywhere in competitive. Dakkabots are safer than they ever have been. Sure, smash captains are nerfed, but they are still the best of the best counter charge option in the IMPERIUM. And daemon primarchs, the deadliest things against kastelons, are now much more manageable. This list is afraid of a castellan or a porphyrion, but it has the tools to wipe the screen in 1 turn and smash captains are still dangerous to castellans.
I would happily run this list against Eldar or Tau. Tau shooting is actually 36" (Riptide). Eldar can't hide their best stuff as well they used to. And dakkabots just love guard brigades. Also lol to chaos man spam. Bring it doofuses. The bloodletter bomb is nerfed and will have to deepstrike at scout screen range on turn 2. Go ahead and eat those scouts. Dakkabots will erase those swarms.
EDIT: RIP staff priests. Glad I didn't put $500 into that army.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/10/01 17:33:02
I'm looking for a feedback on an idea of the 2k mobile Admech list. It was created as I was fed up with the static and reactive nature of the Cawlstar and I'd like to try a proactive approach for a change. The general idea is the Admech with mid ranged kiting/mobile LoS seeking/objective grabbing firepower and a crawling threat in the TPD mini Vanguard plasma castle. With support of the Armigers - Warlglaives for heavy shooting/melee, and Helverins for a backfield capping and 60" easy to reposition (thus Raven) long range snipers. Two single Balistarii could be a midfield flank supportive and table control force. As Ironstriders suffer a moving penalty the main 5 Ironstrider body would have to be supported with a PDI.
Options I'm considering - swapping Ranger snipers for Icarus Onager (at the expense of a few Skitarii bodies). Switching one of the Armigers to Dragoons for combat abilities. Or ditching the plasma castle altogether (keeping the minimum tesco Rangers squads) and swapping it for Onagers. No, I do not accept Guards in my lists... for reasons
The most prevalent problem I see is -1AP of the Autocannons. 1k Sons will laugh at my face, and all Lucius like dogmas. Most guards/SM/CSM vehs will save a lot of shots. Apart from that there's a problem of cost-efficiency which may not be... optimal in the math-hammer. While a double shot lascannon surely is cooler than D3 shots, it still require a lot of dice luck to connect. Fast combats are also a threat - the cognis overwatch might help to mitigate but I'm not sure what to expect from it yet.
Your thoughts?
Spoiler:
++ Outrider Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Adeptus Mechanicus) ++
rvd1ofakind wrote: BTW stygies is likelly to disappear from competitive completely because the "maybe leak" is that all -1 to hit subfactions are becoming "in cover" instead in CA.
Source: on FLG stream Reece mentioned only the -1 subfactions as "not getting the benefit from the new cover strat as they already have cover always". It's a very weird mistake to make because those subfactions are the most important subfactions from their respective armies. I called him out on it and he stopped midsentence and changed topic.
I mean it makes sense. -1 destroys all the 4+ BS armies and 6+ to hit bonus abilities. And cover affect everyone more or less equally. Finally becuase of how strong those subfactions are you rarelly see other ones.
I would be happy as a clam if they got rid of -1 to hit. That stuff is distorting the metagame in a ridiculous way. In addition to your points on 4+ and 6+, plasma is way too risky, and flamers are way too useful. I do think the infiltration nerf was some serious BS though. No tier 1 armies were infiltrating at all. Oh well.
I hope they errata the second turn stratagem to something like: "Units in cover get +1 to save; units not in cover gain cover." Basically, cover and armor saves as a generic. This way, +1 to +2 armor saves replace minus to hit. Thus AP and non-invulnerable saves become valuable again.
Wulfey wrote: So I think this list is competitive now. The FLY charge nerfs are huge. That you can't deepstrike in your best shooting turn 1 is huge. That the best kastelan killers (castellans and smashes and dark eldar) got directly nerfed is huge. Gun castles are back in a big way.
Icarus only got better because you know Eldar flyers will be everywhere in competitive. Dakkabots are safer than they ever have been. Sure, smash captains are nerfed, but they are still the best of the best counter charge option in the IMPERIUM. And daemon primarchs, the deadliest things against kastelons, are now much more manageable. This list is afraid of a castellan or a porphyrion, but it has the tools to wipe the screen in 1 turn and smash captains are still dangerous to castellans.
I would happily run this list against Eldar or Tau. Tau shooting is actually 36" (Riptide). Eldar can't hide their best stuff as well they used to. And dakkabots just love guard brigades. Also lol to chaos man spam. Bring it doofuses. The bloodletter bomb is nerfed and will have to deepstrike at scout screen range on turn 2. Go ahead and eat those scouts. Dakkabots will erase those swarms.
EDIT: RIP staff priests. Glad I didn't put $500 into that army.
100% in agreement with how the meta moved. 2x4 Kastelans though? I worry that might be over-investing in a unit that fundamentally has 4+ shooting. I have been thinking DC or Ballistarii.
Sigh... RIP my half-painted Drills and Fulgurites.
New list without the DC, if anyone is curious. Much more a shooty list:
Spoiler:
Blood Angels Battalion Detachment - 439
HQ - 274 1x Captain w/ Jump Pack - Thunder Hammer, Stormshield, Relic: Angel's Wing, Death Visions of Sanguinius
1x Mephiston - Powers: Quickening, Shield of Sanguinius, Wings of Sanguinius
We are almost thinking the same thing here Suzuteo. I would be with you on the rangers if i thought they did anything. When I brought them they were easy kill points. I like how they give CP, but be damned if they aren't incidental bolter fire bait. The deltas between what we are thinking are:
(1) enginseer, 3x ranger squads, 2x mortars, mephiston, and +4CP
(2) 2 more dakkabots, 1x icarus, second smashCap
I have gotten so burned bringing skitarii footmen. I like mortars for backfield board control, but they are so many drops and feed killpoints if your opponent can target them. The +4CP is good, but I think with all those infantry you don't have that many threats to spend it on. A second smash captain is more threat to bigger things than mephiston (meph has a better profile for weaker targets with his d3 damage).
How has Meph done in your games? EDIT: I could for sure see dropping my second smash cap for Meph since I am short on CP relative to your list. Also I think you are right on sticking with GS/Kurov's for the extra 5-6 CP over the course of the game.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/01 22:09:06
The reason infiltration was removed was because they created unwinnable games for a lot of armies if you went first. Did they threw the baby out with the bathwater, though? Yes.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/02 03:31:48
rvd1ofakind wrote: The reason infiltration was removed was because they created unwinnable games for a lot of armies if you went first. Did they threw the baby out with the bathwater, though? Yes.
They could have just changed our stratagem to 1/3CP to infiltrate one or two units. 9" scout move is a joke.
Wulfey wrote: We are almost thinking the same thing here Suzuteo. I would be with you on the rangers if i thought they did anything. When I brought them they were easy kill points. I like how they give CP, but be damned if they aren't incidental bolter fire bait. The deltas between what we are thinking are:
(1) enginseer, 3x ranger squads, 2x mortars, mephiston, and +4CP
(2) 2 more dakkabots, 1x icarus, second smashCap
I have gotten so burned bringing skitarii footmen. I like mortars for backfield board control, but they are so many drops and feed killpoints if your opponent can target them. The +4CP is good, but I think with all those infantry you don't have that many threats to spend it on. A second smash captain is more threat to bigger things than mephiston (meph has a better profile for weaker targets with his d3 damage).
How has Meph done in your games? EDIT: I could for sure see dropping my second smash cap for Meph since I am short on CP relative to your list. Also I think you are right on sticking with GS/Kurov's for the extra 5-6 CP over the course of the game.
You could be right. The list does feel a bit light on threats. Maybe I can drop the Mephiston, Enginseer, Rangers, and Mortars, add in Lemartes+DC.
Heavy Support - 920 6x Kastelan Robot - 12x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
Total: 1998 points 14 CP (-2)
I feel the second Smash Captain is a lot less valuable now that you can't recycle more than 1 CP a turn. I think Mephiston or Lemartes + DC is a better choice.
Mephiston is basically a Smash Captain with Deny and lower saves. But I think he's a lot weaker now with the fly nerf. You just don't get the same flexibility with his psychic phase moves. You could pull off a lot of crazy strategies before that I doubt you can do now.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/10/02 04:47:14
Eh... That still leads to first turn charge/RF range with 40 fulgs/80 cultists. The problem wasn't the number of units. It's what you could do with them when going first.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Eh... That still leads to first turn charge/RF range with 40 fulgs/80 cultists. The problem wasn't the number of units. It's what you could do with them when going first.
Well, the pendulum has swung way toward the other direction. We can shoot dead virtually everything in a BA list that isn't in reserves on turn one now.
The list i'm still trying (and failing) to come up with is one that involves admech and Knight/s of some description. Seems tough to squeeze into 2k and have enough CP to do anything worthwhile even with a bare bones guard bat in there too
I guess the value of phosphor went up significantly. With everyone excited over the turn 2 +cover (2CP strat) we have a very good counter in the dakabots
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/02 13:10:39
Knights and admech work much less effectively than you might think. You can imagine a list has having three basic parts:
(1) payload, threats, and damage (2) troops for CP (3) HQ taxes
Knights are pure (1) payload, threats, and damage. But the admech codex (2) and (3) are junk. So competitive admech focuses on (1) units from the codex: Dakkabots and Onagers. And running dakkabots also has a huge tax with (3) Cawl. And if you want (2) CP troops from admech then you need a bonus (3) enginseer tax. So adding anything admech to knights devours the points that ought be going into (1) knight payload. As soon as you add 1 knight, you lose (1) 4 dakkabots and make the (3) Cawl tax even more punishing.
Thus, I think the best admech pairing with knights is actually just some STYGIES enginseer + ranger battalions for CP and basic infantry screening. Enginseers can fix knights, get you the 6+/6+ WLT, and STYGIES rangers are point for point competitive screens with guardsmen, it is just the enginseers who have a tax over the commanders.
EDIT: why do you think BLANGELS and GUARD battalions are so good? The (2) troops are cheap for the CP (and scouts are/were the only defense against hardcore deepstrike stuff). And the (3) HQ taxes aren't even taxes! 30 point commanders are amazing, they can run 20 inches a turn. 129 point smash captains are the hardest hitting 129 points in the entire game. Contrast that with 240 point (3) Cawl. Cawl has never killed more than 60 points of model in his career. But his aura probably is worth 200 points.
EDIT2: this is also why every admech list is made better with a BLANGELS and GUARD battalion. These are the two least-tax options for CP. This lets you focus your admech detachment purely on (1) payload, threats, and damage.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/10/02 21:42:38
How would such a Guard / BA / Admech list look like at 2000? The FAQ hit the BA + Guard elements to some degree, on the other hand less alpha strikes makes the Ad Mech elements probably better as well.
Barnie25 wrote: How would such a Guard / BA / Admech list look like at 2000? The FAQ hit the BA + Guard elements to some degree, on the other hand less alpha strikes makes the Ad Mech elements probably better as well.
Just look a few post above, Wulfey and Suzuteo made some suggestions
Regarding AdMech + Knights. I also think Stygies would be the way to go. You could also expand that Batallion with units which don't really requite support and are good by themselves, namely:
- Dragoons (maybe not that good anymore with the infiltration nerf but still not a bad unit)
- Icarus Crawler if your meta is fly heavy (hello pesky eldar and tau)
Dragoons are in a tough spot. Dark Reapers just erase them for free. And Gallants can do their job just as well as they can. But then there are all the difficulties of playing assault models that are ground based VEHICLES in an environment with ''good'' terrain. Half the reason I don't bring dragoons is because i don't want to have a 5 minute argument over terrain features every assault phase. At least the gallants have that one hokey strategem to allow them to swing up 6". Dragoons just sit there with their lances literally in the eyes of the dark reapers but they can't possible swing because the terrain is 1.2" tall.
EDIT: but, against a lot of opponents, they will be a great unit and really should be in every 80%+ admech force. Even with the STYGIES nerf.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/10/03 00:49:11
Yeah I’m probably expecting to be able to do too much and should just double down on Admech. Although If I do a tournament later in the year I might try some knights with a stygies bat
So I'm atm building a semi competitive Mars / BA list and I wanna include some destroyers for the combo with my Bots. Did anyone do the math on Grav vs. Plasma? At the first glance Plasma seems to be better, but I like the fixed 15 shots.
