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My buddy convinced me that Meph is the way to go. He costs less CP and brings a different flavor of threat (-4, hits on 2s, str10). Skitarri footmen are just rotten, so no reason to bring them. THis is a flavor of lists I have run in the past, but I think the various nerfs to FLY charges and FAQs will bring this list back to glory.
Eldar? Tau? Chaos hordes? Yeah, bring it on. Eldar deepstrike is much weaker and icarus loves eldar. Icarus and dakkabots are much better against tau now that stealth suits can't hop my guardsmen. Chaos hordes? They are now slower than ever. They can't make a turn 1 charge and reach the dakkabots anymore. And I Have the firepower to rinse 60 models a turn, and icarus crawlers to meatshield swarms.
Big BUT here: this list can't quite kill a castellan knight in 1 full round of shooting. Expected dakkabot volley is 20 total wounds. I just can't shoot titanic models off the board. Smash captain needs to take down the big stuff.
30coins wrote: Super stoked about the 3 drills I just spend hard $ on.
Could you use the stygies stratagem on more than one drill?
Anyway imo the Stygies infiltrate was vastly overrated for drills - if you didn’t get first turn, you just removed that drill’s ability to do a normal infiltrate and now set it up in some stupid position to keep it safe turn one, or else get it shot to bits (and pay CP for the privilege). Seemed like a typical case of the internet overrating a tactic that explodes when it works but doesn’t reliably work.
Now just infiltrate the drill using its own ability full of priests or hoplites, then use the new strategem on dragoon’s you’ve deployed on the front line - either forward to get that turn 1 charge or else to some safe and smart position to weather an enemy’s first turn.
This change has hurt us when we go first but helped us when we go second, and made for a more reliable set of strategic options rather than a risky gamble.
My buddy convinced me that Meph is the way to go. He costs less CP and brings a different flavor of threat (-4, hits on 2s, str10). Skitarri footmen are just rotten, so no reason to bring them. THis is a flavor of lists I have run in the past, but I think the various nerfs to FLY charges and FAQs will bring this list back to glory.
Eldar? Tau? Chaos hordes? Yeah, bring it on. Eldar deepstrike is much weaker and icarus loves eldar. Icarus and dakkabots are much better against tau now that stealth suits can't hop my guardsmen. Chaos hordes? They are now slower than ever. They can't make a turn 1 charge and reach the dakkabots anymore. And I Have the firepower to rinse 60 models a turn, and icarus crawlers to meatshield swarms.
Big BUT here: this list can't quite kill a castellan knight in 1 full round of shooting. Expected dakkabot volley is 20 total wounds. I just can't shoot titanic models off the board. Smash captain needs to take down the big stuff.
There is no point in Kurov's Aquilla when Grand Stratagist will get you your 1 CP per round (assuming beta rules are in effect). I'd probably bring Laurels of Command instead.
My buddy convinced me that Meph is the way to go. He costs less CP and brings a different flavor of threat (-4, hits on 2s, str10). Skitarri footmen are just rotten, so no reason to bring them. THis is a flavor of lists I have run in the past, but I think the various nerfs to FLY charges and FAQs will bring this list back to glory.
Eldar? Tau? Chaos hordes? Yeah, bring it on. Eldar deepstrike is much weaker and icarus loves eldar. Icarus and dakkabots are much better against tau now that stealth suits can't hop my guardsmen. Chaos hordes? They are now slower than ever. They can't make a turn 1 charge and reach the dakkabots anymore. And I Have the firepower to rinse 60 models a turn, and icarus crawlers to meatshield swarms.
Big BUT here: this list can't quite kill a castellan knight in 1 full round of shooting. Expected dakkabot volley is 20 total wounds. I just can't shoot titanic models off the board. Smash captain needs to take down the big stuff.
My concern here is that there are few options to deal with -2 to hit, and some of this stuff really struggles against -1 to hit. In any case, there is the high possibility of running into another rogue list like we saw at BAO. Maybe an elite army like Space Wolves, Death Guard, or 1K Sons. Nobody is paying any attention at all to middle toughness elites.
Ordana wrote: There is no point in Kurov's Aquilla when Grand Stratagist will get you your 1 CP per round (assuming beta rules are in effect). I'd probably bring Laurels of Command instead.
You want both Kurov's Aquila and Grand Strategist for redundancy. Knights can and will snipe your Company Commander right off the board.
That being said, maybe we're just too used to worrying about this. Maybe they will start sniping other characters instead now that we can only gain a maximum of 6 CP per game.
If so, we can either do Grand Strategist + Laurels of Command + Angel Wing (1CP) or make the Smash Captain our Walord and go Artisan of War + Angel Wing + Kurov's Aquila (1CP). Hm...
30coins wrote: Super stoked about the 3 drills I just spend hard $ on.
Could you use the stygies stratagem on more than one drill?
Anyway imo the Stygies infiltrate was vastly overrated for drills - if you didn’t get first turn, you just removed that drill’s ability to do a normal infiltrate and now set it up in some stupid position to keep it safe turn one, or else get it shot to bits (and pay CP for the privilege). Seemed like a typical case of the internet overrating a tactic that explodes when it works but doesn’t reliably work.
Now just infiltrate the drill using its own ability full of priests or hoplites, then use the new strategem on dragoon’s you’ve deployed on the front line - either forward to get that turn 1 charge or else to some safe and smart position to weather an enemy’s first turn.
This change has hurt us when we go first but helped us when we go second, and made for a more reliable set of strategic options rather than a risky gamble.
You got it wrong. The Drill deep strikes. It does not infiltrate. The difference being that you can disembark Fulgurites after infiltrating on turn one. If you go second, you infiltrate them aggressively anyway and force them to shoot the Drills.
We don't benefit very much from the new stratagem, given we have Shroudpsalm. They don't stack.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/10/04 03:19:16
So Icarus is a good answer to -2 to hit. Most of the -2 to hit has FLY and Cawl is one of the few things that gives you rerolls through modifiers. I can't think of another shooting list that could handle -2 to hit better than this list in the IMPERIUM. You would need one of the ignore modifiers MORTAN or SPACE_WOLVES strategems.
I really don't see the new CP Regen mechanic being that useful. At least, not to the point that I'd be building a strategy around it.
I mean think about it, AT BEST it's getting 6 over the game. In order to do that you and your opponent need to be spending points every turn. If you go bust turn 3, your odds of getting anything after drops massively, as kurovs Aquila is less effective. Same for if your opponent blows his points turn 2. Or alternatively, your points will slow down toward the end. If you and your opponent are only popping one or 2 strategems toward the end your odds aren't guaranteed to even give you the point.
Considering IG has warlord traits like old grudges, extra orders, or heck even the guaranteed 6" advance one all have way more utility and are always working. And that's ignoring relics too, Cadians for example want the lost relic, or if you just want a screen/objectives holder Valhallans for the mk 45.
I just don't see the CP Regen being something I'd be focused on at the absolute tip top level if I was going all out. There are other warlord traits for Blood Angels especially that will have more guaranteed impact game to game.
'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader
"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell
I would look at it like this
1) whats your CP pool you need to spend 3 to get an expectancy of 1 back if you only have 5 CP grand strategist is not worth the investment if you already have 18 and your mono guard do you need more (I certainly ran a mono guard army at an event decided I had more CP than I needed so old grudges all the way far better to executioner a castellen). Certainly though it remains a strong choice in CP hungry imperium armies.
2) What your opponents CP pool if your opponent has 5 chances are aquilla will only just return your investment at best. If he has 20 happy days the aquilla will likely be as good as grand strategist.
3) Both generally a weak choice the only real argument for it is to split them across two models to prevent character sniping removing your CP regen. Most games though good positioning will do that. Now that regen is capped most of the time you wont be getting benefits from one of the options where as old grudges or relic of lost cadia would benefit you.
Conclusion
Sometimes neither based on build
Mostly either option but not both(unless you are really desperate for CP but then you probably need to increase your starting CP)
which means you can consider a warlord from another army and then pay 1CP for aquila if you opponent has a good CP pool.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/10/04 09:33:59
If you are only going to talk about Blood Angels and Guard then please do it in the respective threads, then me and others that would like to read about and discuss Mechanicus units/relics/warlord traits can actually find that content here in the Mechanicus tactica.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/10/04 12:34:47
Dark it was, and dire of form
the beast that laid them low
Hrothgar's sharpened frost-forged blade
to deal a fatal blow
he stalked and hunted day and night
and came upon it's lair
With sword and shield Hrothgar fought
and earned the name of slayer
If you actually read the thread you'll find the discussion started with post faq Astra militarum and admech then went into Astra militarum + blood angels + admech.
You might not have noticed but given the faq nerf's to stygies admech is either cawl bot spam (tier 2) or a soup faction now. A discussion of which components of other factions to adopt in admech soup and why is perfectly valid.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/04 12:44:28
lash92 wrote: Also look at the proposed list, e.g. Wulfey´s on this page. AdMech is by large the biggest faction of the soup.
Doesn't change the fact that the two big wall-of-text posts above mine had exactly 0% Admech related content.
If you guys were at least discussing Admech warlord traits, relics or units in those posts that would be one thing, but as is I don't see why that discussion couldn't be done in the guard tactica, with the added benefit that other guard players can throw in their knowledge as well considering the posters are already decided on picking guard relics and warlord traits.
You might not have noticed but given the faq nerf's to stygies admech is either cawl bot spam (tier 2) or a soup faction now. A discussion of which components of other factions to adopt in admech soup and why is perfectly valid.
And? You don't see Grey Knight players spamming their own tactica (or as another good example: both the Index and Codex Space Wolves Tacticas) with pages of discussion about entirely different armies with entire posts not even mentioning the army the tactica is about.
I'd rather wish people would discuss less competitive (or rather unusual) Admech lists and models when the alternative is pages of off-topic content. I mean if playing in and winning hyper-competitive events is so important that it doesn't even merit discussing Admech stuff in an Admech thread why not switch to playing without any Admech units at all rather than forcing yourself to cram them into lists ¯\_(ツ)_/ ¯?
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2018/10/04 17:34:01
Dark it was, and dire of form
the beast that laid them low
Hrothgar's sharpened frost-forged blade
to deal a fatal blow
he stalked and hunted day and night
and came upon it's lair
With sword and shield Hrothgar fought
and earned the name of slayer
I guess we need to have the "why aren't we talking about more admech stuff as much as we could be?" discussion again. If we go back to when the codex dropped, it was instantly obvious what the strong stuff was: Cawl, Dakkabots, Dragoons, Onagers, MARS, STYGIES. It was also instantly obvious what stunk: sicarians, kataphrons, skitarii foot troops, TPDs, etc. Some things have changed after FAQ and Chapter Approved.
The initial FAQ made dakkabots weaker, but they were still the best.
CA made skitarii foot troops more viable, but the even with points drops the rest of the codex was ass.
Eldar/Ynnari dominance made dragoons relatively weaker, but they still rocked hard if you got a first turn STYGIES charge.
THere was a window there where we had some real discussions about STYGIES, drills, and electropriests becoming a thing. THen FAQ2 just erased that army from the game.
So now we are left with Cawl, Dakkabots, Onagers, and sometimes dragoons at the competitive level. If you want to take a dump on us for talking about what best to supplement that army, sure, go for it i guess. But at least try to know the history of how we got to the point where the only things work debating are (1) what WLTs on our soup detachment, (2) what blangels HQs are best to protect our bots, and (3) how or if we should be bringing dragoons.
Dragoons in a mars list? Anyone tried a blob off them to divert away from Cawls castle or do they suffer from lack of range to targets? (#old stygies or go home)
I was considering trying a blob of them as a distraction/bullet magnet. Just wondered if the better players amongst you had tried such a thing.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/10/04 17:15:03
I ran dragoons in a MARS list at the last SoCal open. I went 4-2. But I also had unnerfed celestine, conscripts, commisars, astropaths, and was against people who didn't have their codex yet. Both losses were to YNNARI. MARS dragoons are flatly worse. But, they have 1 trick I got once. You can occasionally get both the +1 str canticle and the RR1 in melee canticle. That is a big jump in their output on certain targets. Specifically, the RR1 in fight phase is a huge jump in power and should be fished for.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/04 17:21:59
They are worse yes but not bad imo. They still got their natural -1 to hit and are maybe the only unit which really benefits from the Mars dogma. I wouldn't run 6 of them, but a small to middle sized unit can also be a pretty good screen imo.
lash92 wrote: Also look at the proposed list, e.g. Wulfey´s on this page. AdMech is by large the biggest faction of the soup.
Doesn't change the fact that the two big wall-of-text posts above mine had exactly 0% Admech related content.
If you guys were at least discussing Admech warlord traits, relics or units in those posts that would be one thing, but as is I don't see why that discussion couldn't be done in the guard tactica, with the added benefit that other guard players can throw in their knowledge as well considering the posters are already decided on picking guard relics and warlord traits.
You might not have noticed but given the faq nerf's to stygies admech is either cawl bot spam (tier 2) or a soup faction now. A discussion of which components of other factions to adopt in admech soup and why is perfectly valid.
And? You don't see Grey Knight players spamming their own tactica (or as another good example: both the Index and Codex Space Wolves Tacticas) with pages of discussion about entirely different armies with entire posts not even mentioning the army the tactica is about.
I'd rather wish people would discuss less competitive (or rather unusual) Admech lists and models when the alternative is pages of off-topic content. I mean if playing in and winning hyper-competitive events is so important that it doesn't even merit discussing Admech stuff in an Admech thread why not switch to playing without any Admech units at all rather than forcing yourself to cram them into lists ¯\_(ツ)_/ ¯?
Guy asked a question of how the guard trait would do with the Nerf, as a guard player I gave a response to it. As much as I hate it IG can still Regen CP's for other armies and admech desperately needs those to function. That said with the Nerf to Regen I figured it was prudent to point out that it's probably not getting 6 CP a game, which matters for admech. I may never have explicitly stated admech in the post, but it was absolutely relevant. I didn't post it in the guard thread because any pure guard player stopped bothering with that a while ago. We get so many CP as it is that there's no point in trying to regenerate, I've had games end where I still had 5-6 CP easy with pure guard.
If you'd gone back a ways you'd notice I talk a lot about running very "off" admech lists. For omnissiahs sake I run Metallica, which is in serious contention for one of the worst traits in the game period thanks to how it interacts with maybe 4 units in our entire codex. That said they're not super competitive and while I am doing well in my local league using ITC, I have no illusions that Metallica could even crack top 20 at a serious event. So when he asked for competitive advice, I left my army out of it.
'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader
"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell
Suzuteo wrote: You got it wrong. The Drill deep strikes. It does not infiltrate. The difference being that you can disembark Fulgurites after infiltrating on turn one. If you go second, you infiltrate them aggressively anyway and force them to shoot the Drills.
We don't benefit very much from the new stratagem, given we have Shroudpsalm. They don't stack.
By “new strategem” I meant the new Stygies VIII pre-game movement of 9”.
Yes turn one is gone, but turn one was a 50/50 or worse gamble with the old way around anyway, and if you lost that gamble then you were forced to deploy pretty sub-optimally and weather a turn of shooting before doing anything. I’d rather come in reliably turn 2 or 3 and shoot and charge right away than spend a CP to gamble away so many points.
It’s hurt non-drill infiltration more imo - no more infiltrating punchbots or whatever, gotta lucius deepstrike them or footslog them.
On another topic - anyone tried a 6” castle with Graia’s “shoot into CC” warlord trait against purely or almost purely CC armies? One where you can out-shoot them so they’re forced to come to you, but will be aggressively punished for doing so? Maybe do some Hoplite bubble wrap around the 6” then shoot at whoever charged them. Not competitive since it’d only work vs total CC lists, but does it work in trollisj casual play? Any big reasons it doesn’t?
Suzuteo wrote: You got it wrong. The Drill deep strikes. It does not infiltrate. The difference being that you can disembark Fulgurites after infiltrating on turn one. If you go second, you infiltrate them aggressively anyway and force them to shoot the Drills.
We don't benefit very much from the new stratagem, given we have Shroudpsalm. They don't stack.
By “new strategem” I meant the new Stygies VIII pre-game movement of 9”.
Yes turn one is gone, but turn one was a 50/50 or worse gamble with the old way around anyway, and if you lost that gamble then you were forced to deploy pretty sub-optimally and weather a turn of shooting before doing anything. I’d rather come in reliably turn 2 or 3 and shoot and charge right away than spend a CP to gamble away so many points.
It’s hurt non-drill infiltration more imo - no more infiltrating punchbots or whatever, gotta lucius deepstrike them or footslog them.
On another topic - anyone tried a 6” castle with Graia’s “shoot into CC” warlord trait against purely or almost purely CC armies? One where you can out-shoot them so they’re forced to come to you, but will be aggressively punished for doing so? Maybe do some Hoplite bubble wrap around the 6” then shoot at whoever charged them. Not competitive since it’d only work vs total CC lists, but does it work in trollisj casual play? Any big reasons it doesn’t?
I'm intrigued; How do you 'reliably' deep strike on turn 2 or 3? Your opponent knows you have units incoming and can still prevent the same deployment as you would have done turn 1. Also given you can't move after disembark/deep strike you're either a risky 9" charge with no charge bonus or re-rolls or with a drill a 6" charge. Neither of those options are as reliable as the pre-nerf infilatret, move and charge within 1-3".
Graia is fast becoming my next Forgeworld of choice I think. At least the strategm and dogma are both useful, which was only something Stygies could boast previously.
Essentially the admech portion of my army is
1enginseer 3 vanguard 1 x 3dragoons 1x 7 corpuscarii 3x hoplite allied to AM and starstriders With the Admech footslogging supported by allied deepstrikers and artillary
Now im not going to take a warlord in admech so warlord trait doesn't matter and the only relic I will take is the omniscient mask as the best buffer.
So it comes down to doctrine and stratagem
Stygies strat will speed boost my dragoons but thats probably all maybe corpuscarii in the right circumstances but I can also see matchups where I do neither. Useing the strat can also backfire by getting you in a position where your not close enough to fight but close enough to lose your -1 so not essential and very situational
Graia strat denying psychic powers can be a nice option but 50% of the time it fails and I already have 2 deny witches. I can certainly think of circumstances where it sees use but in lots of match ups it wont see play because i dont mind you smiteing 3 guardsmen enough to waste a for only a 50% chance to save them. So I nice option but again not essential and very situational.
Graia doctorine prevents a flat 1/6 damage always good but not that good
Stygies prevents nothing within 12" and 1.5/6-3/6 against most enemies at range based opponents BS. so it certainly can be more effective but it can also do nothing. A skilled opponent can also target my non-1 to hit units at range T1 and then shoot the -1 stuff without penalty T2. I can mitagate this a bit by flanking as then i can be in range of part of his army but not all but that limits my ability to counter deploy. Draggons of course really benefit with their stacked -1 but they are a bit of a distractioj carnifex without the preBFAQ2 steat and can be ignored.
Idea:
Lucius deep strike to counter something.
Metalica moves forward and take objectives. Like the idea of fast moving skitariis.
Mars builds the fire base and the Infiltrators deep strikes.
Concern is anti tank (has thought the Robots with WoM Gem) and survivability, specifically if i go second.
Feedback would be great.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/06 11:42:59
Why arc rifles on the Metallica vanguard? For Metallica I'd say they're not as good as just regular rad carbines. Remember you're going to be advancing a lot, which means they'll be assault 1. Rad carbines are going to be far more useful or even just take some more plasma. If you can, I'd trade omnispex on the Metallica vanguard for data tethers. You'll need them to stick around on objectives and it let's them use protector doctrina.
Other than that, what's your plan for eldar? Some Icarus Onagers would help a lot. As it sits you have little that would be able to hit them at range, and the eldar will keep an army like this at range.
'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader
"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell
