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Thanks for the hint, but it is better to shoot with one shoot as i can't shoot after advance.

However, I play around with a Stygies instead of Metalica because of the hit modifier ( saver 1T shooting) and the “scout move gem“. Does the Gem count as Reserve?I don't think so.

No but it has been faq'ed to be only 9" move now and so of questionable value. I take a 9" move and even my dragoons might not get to a back deploying opponent. T1

Stygies used to be strong because it protected your back stuff while portalling your forward stuff. Now an artillery list might be better with mars and an infantry list graia or agripinaa

Maxamato wrote:
Thanks for the hint, but it is better to shoot with one shoot as i can't shoot after advance.

However, I play around with a Stygies instead of Metalica because of the hit modifier ( saver 1T shooting) and the “scout move gem“. Does the Gem count as Reserve?I don't think so.

I'm talking about your detachment of Metallica vanguard. Arc rifles elsewhere is fine, but they're really bad with Metallica.

What I mean is I think the vanguard rad carbines usually will do more damage than a single arc rifle shot, even against vehicles. Rad carbines get 3 shots to the arc rifles one. Arc rifle gets -1 AP to rad carbine none. Against most serious vehicles rad carbines wound on 6 while the arc rifle will usually wound on 5 or maybe 4. Then the ultimate insult, the rad carbine will always be a flat 2 damage while the arc rifle is d3. That means after all that effort it can still do less damage.

Unless you already have all these arc rifles built in Metallica scheme (if you do I'm so sorry) I would heavily argue against it. I've got 3 for my vanguard and they feel completely useless with Metallica trait. Either go with plasma, which works excellently with them, or keep them with just rad carbines, which are great weapons too in my opinion. Metallica needs to go balls to the wall advancing every turn to make the vanguard shine, and youre much better dumping those 72pts spent on arc rifles elsewhere for AT that will actually do something. Having half the vanguard be barebones and half have plasma for example could work.

Thanks for the answers!

U02dah4 wrote:
Stygies used to be strong because it protected your back stuff while portalling your forward stuff. Now an artillery list might be better with mars and an infantry list graia or agripinaa

Why should an infantry based list with agripinaa better then Stygies?

How should an infantry based list looks like?

MrMoustaffa wrote:

Maxamato wrote:
Thanks for the hint, but it is better to shoot with one shoot as i can't shoot after advance.

However, I play around with a Stygies instead of Metalica because of the hit modifier ( saver 1T shooting) and the “scout move gem“. Does the Gem count as Reserve?I don't think so.

I'm talking about your detachment of Metallica vanguard. Arc rifles elsewhere is fine, but they're really bad with Metallica.

What I mean is I think the vanguard rad carbines usually will do more damage than a single arc rifle shot, even against vehicles. Rad carbines get 3 shots to the arc rifles one. Arc rifle gets -1 AP to rad carbine none. Against most serious vehicles rad carbines wound on 6 while the arc rifle will usually wound on 5 or maybe 4. Then the ultimate insult, the rad carbine will always be a flat 2 damage while the arc rifle is d3. That means after all that effort it can still do less damage.

Unless you already have all these arc rifles built in Metallica scheme (if you do I'm so sorry) I would heavily argue against it. I've got 3 for my vanguard and they feel completely useless with Metallica trait. Either go with plasma, which works excellently with them, or keep them with just rad carbines, which are great weapons too in my opinion. Metallica needs to go balls to the wall advancing every turn to make the vanguard shine, and youre much better dumping those 72pts spent on arc rifles elsewhere for AT that will actually do something. Having half the vanguard be barebones and half have plasma for example could work.

Yeah, I have understood you, but thanks for the deep insides. I think also that the rad carbines are execellent weapones.

However, I don't feel confident with Metallica because of there weakness against shooting. I feel that here is Graia or Stygies better.

And, no, my AdMech hasn't a specific painting sheme.

Agrip helps with Overwatch, which isn't bad when you're that close to the enemy. However, the Relic is lame, and the Stratagem only affects Kataphrons. The Warlord trait ain't half bad though. Not better than even Metalica though if you're planning to be at the front, in which case the important part of Fly is better.

Maxamoto, are you not using Metallica period then? Your list you posted had a big fat batallion of them so I'm kind of confused

Given most of our playable infantry is 12-18inch in range if your close enough to shoot your close enough to get no benefit from stygies and your vulnerable to being charged. Agripinaa boosts your overwatch helping you against their counter charge. Plus with vanguard/corpuscarii/infiltrators your firing enough shots that something will stick. All the faction specific relics are lame exept agripinaa (now it does depend on your opponents list because it only targets vehicles but having your whole admech reroll 1's to W is strong if your heavy admech particularly vs say knights)

Stygies is great T1 after that its benefit is minimal because your too close. The stygies strat at a 9" move isnt enough to get you a turn 1 charge against a competant opponent with most units. Its not awful but you wont use it muh. If your playing with allies your opponent focusses your non -1 units T1 and ignores your stygies

Graia is more consistent throughout but provides no benefit to priests and minimal to multi W models. The graia strat is a nice option but its only effective 50% of the time and plenty of armies have no psykers

As to metalica rangers dont need to advance and loseing a shot for advancing is not great. For the rest of your infantry it pretty much reads no BS penalty T1. After T1 your probably not advancing. You also acheive the same thing with a longer movement distance by just useing the stygies strat and not advancing.

So vanguard corpuscarii infiltrators kataphron= agripinaa
Vanguard infiltrators rangers = graia

Dragoon neutronaga bots ironstrider rangers fulgurite(but bad choice)=stygies
Mars= cawl-bots neutronaga

MrMoustaffa wrote:Maxamoto, are you not using Metallica period then? Your list you posted had a big fat batallion of them so I'm kind of confused

Sorry for confusing. Yeah, the list I have posted has a big Metallica Detahcment but that was more of an idea. I'm not sure about to use it because I'm wooried about T1 shooting survivability.

My painting sheme doesn't follow strictly a Forgeworld, so I'm here total free to choode.

U02dah4 wrote:Given most of our playable infantry is 12-18inch in range if your close enough to shoot your close enough to get no benefit from stygies and your vulnerable to being charged. Agripinaa boosts your overwatch helping you against their counter charge. Plus with vanguard/corpuscarii/infiltrators your firing enough shots that something will stick. All the faction specific relics are lame exept agripinaa (now it does depend on your opponents list because it only targets vehicles but having your whole admech reroll 1's to W is strong if your heavy admech particularly vs say knights)

Stygies is great T1 after that its benefit is minimal because your too close. The stygies strat at a 9" move isnt enough to get you a turn 1 charge against a competant opponent with most units. Its not awful but you wont use it muh. If your playing with allies your opponent focusses your non -1 units T1 and ignores your stygies

Graia is more consistent throughout but provides no benefit to priests and minimal to multi W models. The graia strat is a nice option but its only effective 50% of the time and plenty of armies have no psykers

As to metalica rangers dont need to advance and loseing a shot for advancing is not great. For the rest of your infantry it pretty much reads no BS penalty T1. After T1 your probably not advancing. You also acheive the same thing with a longer movement distance by just useing the stygies strat and not advancing.

So vanguard corpuscarii infiltrators kataphron= agripinaa
Vanguard infiltrators rangers = graia

Dragoon neutronaga bots ironstrider rangers fulgurite(but bad choice)=stygies
Mars= cawl-bots neutronaga

Thanks for the that.

Regarding Metallica it was also my thinking, thath I could to the same stygies.

Difficult choice.

How many Vangruads/Ranger should an infantriy based list include? I mean, that we can't play a horde style army, isn't?

Damn, are WoM+Cawl+Dakkastelans the strongest ranged anti-tank in the game for their pts? They beat even Veterans, 2+ BS full re-roll, double shooting obliterators with 3 3 3 for stats.

I think it depends who your allies are an admech/AM pure infantry list is pretty hoardy. I am running an admech/AM/ES hoard at a gt in October admittely I take 9 tarrantulas but thats it for non infantry

As to how many vanguard well if your running an infantry list your not running a brigade so that caps you at 6 and a double batallion forces you to take a dominous and your probably not making the most out of a dominous in an infantry list.

U02dah4 wrote:
Given most of our playable infantry is 12-18inch in range if your close enough to shoot your close enough to get no benefit from stygies and your vulnerable to being charged. Agripinaa boosts your overwatch helping you against their counter charge. Plus with vanguard/corpuscarii/infiltrators your firing enough shots that something will stick. All the faction specific relics are lame exept agripinaa (now it does depend on your opponents list because it only targets vehicles but having your whole admech reroll 1's to W is strong if your heavy admech particularly vs say knights)

Stygies is great T1 after that its benefit is minimal because your too close. The stygies strat at a 9" move isnt enough to get you a turn 1 charge against a competant opponent with most units. Its not awful but you wont use it muh. If your playing with allies your opponent focusses your non -1 units T1 and ignores your stygies

Graia is more consistent throughout but provides no benefit to priests and minimal to multi W models. The graia strat is a nice option but its only effective 50% of the time and plenty of armies have no psykers

As to metalica rangers dont need to advance and loseing a shot for advancing is not great. For the rest of your infantry it pretty much reads no BS penalty T1. After T1 your probably not advancing. You also acheive the same thing with a longer movement distance by just useing the stygies strat and not advancing.

So vanguard corpuscarii infiltrators kataphron= agripinaa
Vanguard infiltrators rangers = graia

Dragoon neutronaga bots ironstrider rangers fulgurite(but bad choice)=stygies
Mars= cawl-bots neutronaga

Actually Graia helps Priests a lot. It states when the model is slain, so after their FNP, and THEN they might die, and then you get to roll for Graia.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Damn, are WoM+Cawl+Dakkastelans the strongest ranged anti-tank in the game for their pts? They beat even Veterans, 2+ BS full re-roll, double shooting obliterators with 3 3 3 for stats.

Well yes apart from leman russes (executioner+harker) cyclopses the neutronaga (vs non knights) .... The problem is for their points cawl is a humongous tax especially if your not all in. Plus given your medium S vs the most common tank the imperial knight you fail to W a lot. Youll also find a lot of non ranged units very good at the job

U02dah4 wrote:
I am running an admech/AM/ES hoard at a gt in October admittely I take 9 tarrantulas but thats it for non infantry

What is admech/AM/ES? Specicaly ES?

U02dah4 wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Damn, are WoM+Cawl+Dakkastelans the strongest ranged anti-tank in the game for their pts? They beat even Veterans, 2+ BS full re-roll, double shooting obliterators with 3 3 3 for stats.

Well yes apart from leman russes (executioner+harker) cyclopses the neutronaga (vs non knights) .... The problem is for their points cawl is a humongous tax especially if your not all in. Plus given your medium S vs the most common tank the imperial knight you fail to W a lot. Youll also find a lot of non ranged units very good at the job

You'll get enough mortal wounds to cripple the knight and at least a few of the shots will sneak through and deal more damage. If they're also with destroyers for the +1 to hit strat the knight is probably going to go down or at least not do much for the rest of the game unless they're questor mechanicus.

Im still betting on his three knightly budies carrying the day more often than not




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Maxamato wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
I am running an admech/AM/ES hoard at a gt in October admittely I take 9 tarrantulas but thats it for non infantry

What is admech/AM/ES? Specicaly ES?

Adeptus mechanicus/Astra militarum/Elucidian starstriders.

The starstriders fit nicely in the all infantry theam DS in together and look cool and especially if you ditch prond are efficient for there pts

 kastelen wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Damn, are WoM+Cawl+Dakkastelans the strongest ranged anti-tank in the game for their pts? They beat even Veterans, 2+ BS full re-roll, double shooting obliterators with 3 3 3 for stats.

Well yes apart from leman russes (executioner+harker) cyclopses the neutronaga (vs non knights) .... The problem is for their points cawl is a humongous tax especially if your not all in. Plus given your medium S vs the most common tank the imperial knight you fail to W a lot. Youll also find a lot of non ranged units very good at the job

You'll get enough mortal wounds to cripple the knight and at least a few of the shots will sneak through and deal more damage. If they're also with destroyers for the +1 to hit strat the knight is probably going to go down or at least not do much for the rest of the game unless they're questor mechanicus.

Yikes bad formula. Ignore my post

so guys, after this FAQ. Hoplites and Peltasts. yeah or nay?

I really would like to see some use for them, because the models look really great. But I can´t see it and the FAQ did imo nothing for them.

 lash92 wrote:
I really would like to see some use for them, because the models look really great. But I can´t see it and the FAQ did imo nothing for them.

I think Hoplites make quite a decent screen for all the dakkabots we have to take now. I am not sure about the peltasts...they have to be midfield to do anything. And they really dont belong in no mans land.

Hoplites havn't been weakened by the faq but they still struggle with the same problem that they had before the faq. Namely they cant get into CC

So 1 unit as a screen to counter CC charges

Or 3 units foot slogging in a mixed infantry horde

I think priests are better in drills

Peltgasts struggle for a role mostly because 2 units of vanguard do a similar role but less vulnerable to moral and cheaper.

Sure they could be reasonable midfield objective holders but you have to get them there they kinda fit in the not terrible but not good bracket

yeah, priests are out of the question for me. At least the melee ones.The Stygies nerf is way to massive and honestly: I dont buy a couple of freaking drills to make a bottom tier faction become a lower mid-tier faction.

@RVD what was your formula? Do you mean dakabots dont look as tasty as you thought?

 Ideasweasel wrote:
@RVD what was your formula? Do you mean dakabots dont look as tasty as you thought?

It just got the wrong row when copying stuff. Here are some of the best ranged anti-tank. Feel free to tell me what I should add. (Take Castellan with a sack of salt as that's all weapons (except meltas) into the same target(So he's even BETTER actually).

Iago40k wrote:
so guys, after this FAQ. Hoplites and Peltasts. yeah or nay?

Peltasts would need to be troops to even have a role imo, they're not in any way filling any elite roles.

Hoplites arent a main means of attack, they're a screen and charge protection. You don't need to 'get' them in to combat. Either someone spends time shooting them (which is good) or they send a bunch of assault into them (also good). I cant think of a better melee/shooting unit for 9pts off the top of my head.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

 Ideasweasel wrote:
@RVD what was your formula? Do you mean dakabots dont look as tasty as you thought?

It just got the wrong row when copying stuff. Here are some of the best ranged anti-tank. Feel free to tell me what I should add. (Take Castellan with a sack of salt as that's all weapons (except meltas) into the same target(So he's even BETTER actually).

Don't get the table. What it should tell us?

Damage per point to certain targets. So greener and bigger the number is - the better.

Ok, thaht means, that according the table double shoot max. buffed Obliterators is best in class against IK?

So catachan plasma executioners (rerolling shot numbers and 1's

Cadian las cannon heavy weapon teams with CC tax full reroll to hit

Catachan cyclops

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

 Ideasweasel wrote:
@RVD what was your formula? Do you mean dakabots dont look as tasty as you thought?

It just got the wrong row when copying stuff. Here are some of the best ranged anti-tank. Feel free to tell me what I should add. (Take Castellan with a sack of salt as that's all weapons (except meltas) into the same target(So he's even BETTER actually).

This is a great resource, thank you! I've recently briefly tried something similar but I'm not sure my maths was correct and I'm no good with spreadsheets. I'd love plasma and grav Kataphrons as well as neutron and Icarus Onagers to be on there with the addition of various targets with 3+, 4+ and 5+ invulnerable saves, -1 and -2 modifiers and Fly.

Maxamato wrote:
Ok, thaht means, that according the table double shoot max. buffed Obliterators is best in class against IK?

That's their maximum potential. To get that they need:

Veterans, Prescience, Re-rolls to hit, roll 3 3 3(or just the relavant ones, like who cares about your AP vs a 3++ knight) on their stats and shoot twice(that's rolling optimal stats AGAIN)