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Yeah 9 and then 3x3. Needless to say my poor mek guns did not last long Add to that 4 plasma bot, 3 onagers and bunch of other stuff and basically on my T1 I gave up having lost all mek guns, 12/15 lootas, whole ton of grots(grot screen for lootas) and all I did was 4 wounds to onager despite SSAG firing twice.
don't know about repairing...He never needed it really as his firepower crippled my army. I would have been left weathering 1 more round and then try to bumrush him with boyz and hope something is left. Unlikely to work and already down in vp's and super hard to score anything(draw 2, opponent decides what you try. I had to defend objectives on his quarter etc...)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/07 11:32:58
I guess that's an idea. If you're running nothing but kataphrons as your "infantry" and only run vehicles, bots, and striders, you're essentially running a tank list. Except a lot of your vehicles can climb stairs, have obsec, invulns, and can actually somewhat fight in CQC. At that point if you have enough they could possibly pull some fire off the robots and Dragoons?
'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader
"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell
MrMoustaffa wrote: I guess that's an idea. If you're running nothing but kataphrons as your "infantry" and only run vehicles, bots, and striders, you're essentially running a tank list. Except a lot of your vehicles can climb stairs, have obsec, invulns, and can actually somewhat fight in CQC. At that point if you have enough they could possibly pull some fire off the robots and Dragoons?
plus with this much of multiwound models there is no chance that your opponent will leave something unharmed, so now this 3 TPE have something to repair, giving you value over few turns. This can add up quickly to play style similar to death guard. You are less durable than dg but you have much better firepower than them.
1. „Stab the shoty, shot the staby”
2. „Who bails, fails.”
3. „Act to win yourself and not for your opponent to lose.”
4. „If in dilemma between damage and durability, chose third- speed.”
5. „Focus fire.”
If a knight falls back, can he charge the same unit again?
large knight yes, armigers don't.
1. „Stab the shoty, shot the staby”
2. „Who bails, fails.”
3. „Act to win yourself and not for your opponent to lose.”
4. „If in dilemma between damage and durability, chose third- speed.”
5. „Focus fire.”
tneva82 wrote: Yeah 9 and then 3x3. Needless to say my poor mek guns did not last long Add to that 4 plasma bot, 3 onagers and bunch of other stuff and basically on my T1 I gave up having lost all mek guns, 12/15 lootas, whole ton of grots(grot screen for lootas) and all I did was 4 wounds to onager despite SSAG firing twice.
don't know about repairing...He never needed it really as his firepower crippled my army. I would have been left weathering 1 more round and then try to bumrush him with boyz and hope something is left. Unlikely to work and already down in vp's and super hard to score anything(draw 2, opponent decides what you try. I had to defend objectives on his quarter etc...)
So 1x9 Breachers and 3x3 Destroyers? Shouldn't that be the other way around? Lol...
I think I want to keep my gunline simple. A big Martian death bubble with Knights and Rusty 17 in front of them. For the gunline, 5x Dakkabots, 2x Crawlers, and 3x3 Breachers seems ideal; Breachers can act as a second screen for the pure shooters. Maybe I can expand it to 6x Dakkabots with 3x4 Breachers later when I get the time to build and paint another box of them.
Or do you guys think I can get away with Destroyers? If so, I would probably want to make them a 1x6 Ryzaphron unit to melt stuff with Plasma. I have had good success with this sort of combo in the past, but the sticking point was always lack of infantry and being outranged by Castellans. Manipulus won't be much help, since he will be Mars. Not as big a concern if everyone is just going to use Crusaders with 36" range. Thoughts?
What's about ditching Mars and making a Ryza detachment with a unit of Dakkabots in it. Then all of your stuff profits from one buffing source and instead of the mindlock you just use the Elimination volley strat so your Bots will be hitting on 3's rerolling 1s.
You would WoM, but could maybe take an Infiltrator unit In your graia soup detachment?
Also even Breachers would benefit from an Ryza detachment. Rerolling hits from Prime Hermeticon + rerolling 1s to wound.
tneva82 wrote: Yeah 9 and then 3x3. Needless to say my poor mek guns did not last long Add to that 4 plasma bot, 3 onagers and bunch of other stuff and basically on my T1 I gave up having lost all mek guns, 12/15 lootas, whole ton of grots(grot screen for lootas) and all I did was 4 wounds to onager despite SSAG firing twice.
don't know about repairing...He never needed it really as his firepower crippled my army. I would have been left weathering 1 more round and then try to bumrush him with boyz and hope something is left. Unlikely to work and already down in vp's and super hard to score anything(draw 2, opponent decides what you try. I had to defend objectives on his quarter etc...)
So 1x9 Breachers and 3x3 Destroyers? Shouldn't that be the other way around? Lol...
I think I want to keep my gunline simple. A big Martian death bubble with Knights and Rusty 17 in front of them. For the gunline, 5x Dakkabots, 2x Crawlers, and 3x3 Breachers seems ideal; Breachers can act as a second screen for the pure shooters. Maybe I can expand it to 6x Dakkabots with 3x4 Breachers later when I get the time to build and paint another box of them.
Or do you guys think I can get away with Destroyers? If so, I would probably want to make them a 1x6 Ryzaphron unit to melt stuff with Plasma. I have had good success with this sort of combo in the past, but the sticking point was always lack of infantry and being outranged by Castellans. Manipulus won't be much help, since he will be Mars. Not as big a concern if everyone is just going to use Crusaders with 36" range. Thoughts?
9xbreachers, 3x3breachers and seems 3xdestroyers. Not too familiar with ad mech stuff and game was over so quickly didn't even remember list well but luckily tournament has the lists on their web page.
Can't comment on efficiency much except that it was excelent hard counter for my poor list and that it made to 3rd losing first 0-20 to this:
HQ5: Ahriman [131] (Doombolt, Tzeentch's Firestorm, Death Hex)
HQ6: Daemon Prince of Tzeentch with wings (170) malefic talons (10) Helm of the Third Eye (0) [180] – WARLORD (High Magister) (Bolt of Change, Gaze of Fate)
HQ7: Daemon Prince of Tzeentch with wings (170) malefic talons (10) [180] (Infernal Gaze, Warptime)
And finally vaporizing my poor orks:
Spoiler:
HQ1: Big mek - warlord: Big killa boss, shock attack gun(da souped up shokka) 80
HQ2: weirdboy(da jump) 62
@tneva82
I totally just realized you don't need to follow rule of three for Kataphrons. But the list looks good. It's basically abusing the crap out of efficient unit choices and force multipliers; my Martian gunline list is sort of the same concept, though I have a Knight instead of Destroyers as well as one more Dakkabot instead of a third Crawler. Not fully understanding why he distributed them the way he did though. I mean, why put the Destroyers in the detachment without the Dakkabots? Why not make more MSUs of Breachers or perhaps make middle-sized units?
Is he playing before the Eldar nerf? Not sure how he lost with so many Breachers and Icarus Crawlers. Seems like a terrifying matchup for the Eldar.
Wanted to pitch to you a list that has done really well for me recently and encompasses a lot of what I like to use, gaining power in a number of ways since the last FAQ.
1999pt 12CP
Mars Battalion
Belisarius Cawl
Tech Priest Manipulus (WL: Prime Hermeticon + Raiment of the Technomartyr)
4xBreachers
4xBreachers
4xBreachers
4x Kastelan Robots
Mars Battalion (Servitor Maniple + Field Commander)
Tech Priest Enginseer (FC: Master of Biosplicing)
Tech Priest Enginseer
The list runs like a standard cawlstar. Breachers deploy as far forward as I can, cawl + manipulus sits between with the FC, robots move into position and destroyers fall in behind the rear.
The dragoons sit on a side to prevent flanking and countercharge exclusively on the breacher wall.
I have been very successful with Infoslave Skull and Destroyers on the backline purposefully leaving space for Deepstrikers with Cawl rerolling in that phase now.
Breachers and dragoons stop the tide and the robots and destroyers have mopped up.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/08 11:47:30
Suzuteo wrote: @tneva82
I totally just realized you don't need to follow rule of three for Kataphrons. But the list looks good. It's basically abusing the crap out of efficient unit choices and force multipliers; my Martian gunline list is sort of the same concept, though I have a Knight instead of Destroyers as well as one more Dakkabot instead of a third Crawler. Not fully understanding why he distributed them the way he did though. I mean, why put the Destroyers in the detachment without the Dakkabots? Why not make more MSUs of Breachers or perhaps make middle-sized units?
Is he playing before the Eldar nerf? Not sure how he lost with so many Breachers and Icarus Crawlers. Seems like a terrifying matchup for the Eldar.
Nope this was on sunday so FAQ was in effect. Only thing that the eldar really lost though was doom with the dark eldar flyers.
Can't comment on your questions and don't know how game went. My game vs IG took long enough that didn't really have time to see how game unfolded.
Wanted to pitch to you a list that has done really well for me recently and encompasses a lot of what I like to use, gaining power in a number of ways since the last FAQ.
1999pt 12CP
Mars Battalion
Belisarius Cawl
Tech Priest Manipulus (WL: Prime Hermeticon + Raiment of the Technomartyr)
4xBreachers
4xBreachers
4xBreachers
4x Kastelan Robots
Mars Battalion (Servitor Maniple + Field Commander)
Tech Priest Enginseer (FC: Master of Biosplicing)
Tech Priest Enginseer
The list runs like a standard cawlstar. Breachers deploy as far forward as I can, cawl + manipulus sits between with the FC, robots move into position and destroyers fall in behind the rear.
The dragoons sit on a side to prevent flanking and countercharge exclusively on the breacher wall.
I have been very successful with Infoslave Skull and Destroyers on the backline purposefully leaving space for Deepstrikers with Cawl rerolling in that phase now.
Breachers and dragoons stop the tide and the robots and destroyers have mopped up.
well said my point exactly. ITs v v close to mine though i prefer tactical advantages like infiltrators deep strike etc but the idea is close. The summary is almost the same. you can remove a Robot and / or a destroyer and add flavor. i d definetly sugest you try 4 breachers with hydralic as your list is build rest is like i use them atm more orless but i v seen of late like 3-5 ad mech lists on the last nation Tour that i figured is all going about preferance and playstyle in details.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/08 14:12:59
I was thinking of dropping the Knight for a Dragoon unit too. Except in my iteration, I used a Spearhead and two Battalions. Even then, I was getting worried about how much tax I was paying. Your solution is elegant, but it's still 90 points.
That being said, how are the Plasmaphrons in Mars? My math says Ryza is still way better, but on the plus side, it brings both them and the Dakkabots to 3+ BS.
@Yoda79
Really does seem like the direction everyone is moving is Kataphron spam. I can see why. Skitarii have always sucked, and these guys are really point efficient for their profile.
I guess I need to build another 3x and get up to 12x. Maybe another 6x after that. Sigh. These guys are not cheap.
I wonder if I can convince the TO to let me run my Mortars as Plasmaphrons. Culverins are cannons, after all. Lol...
If you wanna run Plasmaphrons + Bots why not run them as Ryza?
Sure you lose Cawl but you'll be hitting on 3's rerolling 1s anyway with both of them. Plus it's not even funny how much better Ryza Plasmaphrons are compared to Mars.
sure but there is a big difference in Mars Robots and Ryza Robots.
And what i Get from MArs especially with the reformed overwatch and Cawl Does not compare.
My decision has been made atm and i run.
Robots and Destroyers as MArs in a more pure ad mech army.
OR Ryza if i take only a destroyer group in a soup maybe.
IF you go competitive Ad mech as pure as possible or at least 1500 points ad mech there is no better than Cawl MArs etc for various reason explained in detail many times.
IF you know decide to play parts of the competitive game building up your list maybe try1500 total points games or use Allies and require a specific unit then Ryza is the key.
With the new vigilus you can take Ryza destroyers and a dominus use the +1 cp and Ryza cp and get the super bs 3 rerolling no explotion plasma +++. Sure thing. And maybe its a away to make a more mobile force.
As i said i had great success witha battalion like
dominus
Manipulus
4-6 breachers
4-6 breachers
6-12 plasma destro.
Superb they also get +1 to wound cc breachers etc etc.
or even split 2 battalions agripinna dominus and breachers and another with Ryza fdestoyers
both superb and i like them.
Same as i like knights and onagers Dragoons and priests.
But as i grow in points and the games become more and more specific i prefer to get the Cawl Combo its just one step above for me atm (current meta + to hit bla bla )
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/08 18:45:10
Yeah, getting the rerolls against minus to hit is pretty key for a gunline-focused army. It's why we're not all 100% Stygies. (Super consistent Canticles is also nice.) But the math suggests Ryzaphrons with a Dominus and the rest Mars. I am a bit skeptical of Elimination Volley in general, and I never liked it myself, especially since the Robots travel at a different speed than the Kataphrons (faster or not at all). Just wanted some people's opinions of it in use.
I definitely agree that we have lots of nice options. Doesn't mean it's the most optimal options.
I will go back to the drawing board, but I am thinking of maybe bringing both Destroyers and Breachers now. Definitely going with Martian gunline with Knight+Graia screen.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/08 19:12:19
I have tried both the mars gunline and the ryza variation. I think the point that is missed is that it really depends on the mission format. As yoda says he runs his for ETC. In ITC for example cawl himself gives up max kingslayer points, the multiple breacher squads give up easy gangbusters or marked for death points. So the list(s) may not perform as you think they will depending on your mission format and you may feel you need to change up the list to the format.
The key point is that with the prevalence of eldar flyers (which arnt going away) you need destroyers and bots together to get the +2 to hit, whichever forgeworld you choose. I have tried mixing them up and it simply becomes a Jack of all trades master of none.
These are very good points. I did notice that odd number of Breachers is ideal for denying the extra Gang Buster point; however, Breachers are never something you immediately go for. Marked For Death is probably not as big a deal (and unavoidable); AdMech is definitely an elite/vehicle based army. Also, nobody has ever Kingslayer'ed Cawl before in any of my games.
EDIT: So maybe 3x3 Breachers and 1x5 Destroyers? If all Mars, would we still be going the Plasma route?
Spoiler:
Mars Battalion Detachment - 1340 Cohort Cybernetica (-1 CP)
HQ - 280 1x Belisarius Cawl
1x Tech-Priest Manipulus - Transonic Cannon, Relic: Raiment of the Techno-Martyr
House Krast Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 475
Lord of War - 475 1x Knight Styrix - Volkite Chierovile, Reaper Chainsword, Graviton Crusher, Warlord: First Knight (-1 CP), Relic: Headsman's Mark (-1 CP)
Total: 1995 points 13 CP (-3)
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/05/08 21:41:25
If you also incorporate Dragoons there will be no point in trying to deny Gangbusters :p
As for Grav vs Plas in non Ryza:
In my calculations both are nearly similar against vehicles. I would take Grav so you have more versatility due to number of shots and a backup unit for WoM. 6 Grav Destroyers with 15" RF phosphor are still 36/42 shots.
Envii wrote: I have tried both the mars gunline and the ryza variation. I think the point that is missed is that it really depends on the mission format. As yoda says he runs his for ETC. In ITC for example cawl himself gives up max kingslayer points, the multiple breacher squads give up easy gangbusters or marked for death points. So the list(s) may not perform as you think they will depending on your mission format and you may feel you need to change up the list to the format.
The key point is that with the prevalence of eldar flyers (which arnt going away) you need destroyers and bots together to get the +2 to hit, whichever forgeworld you choose. I have tried mixing them up and it simply becomes a Jack of all trades master of none.
Hi,
I play ETC if that counts here in the UK most often.
I see this argument a lot about Ryzaphrons and frankly I feel it is shortsighted in the grand scheme of things. Ryzaphrons without a doubt offer the best damage per point, without question. However, that is all they offer and the FW dogma is largely useless if you are dedicating points to destroyers anyway.
When I first started building lists for competitive play, I read all the forums and found out the best units the codex had to offer and the combos that this army could field and that got me a little way. Stygies dragoons, mars bots, knight allies. All good things.
In truth though, what really helped my progress was understanding the list as a whole rather than the threat levels that were present. How the list moves, how to find multipliers that benefit your army as a whole and how your list wins rather than a unit.
To this end, reliable cover and a the best reroll aura in 40k and Mortal wound spam on weight of dice lend themselves to an army that can do 3 things - have units that benefit from improved cover saves, higher toughness as a dominating percentage of the army that can be repaired, a large shooting presence and the means to protect this shooting. Mars can be built this way and thus the whole army must lend themselves to it.
I have played Ryzaphrons and they are good but you must build the army around it. A mixed battalion with mars infiltrators, graia rangers with stygies detachment and dragoons / drills / priests with knights. They need protection through aggressive play otherwise they get shot off the board turn 1 or closed in on because the rest of the army isnt built to protect them.
It's new and fun but it must work within the confines of the list.
Ah shoot. I just realized that I need Servitor Maniple and a Dominus to make that list work. This is really hard!
@IronVaught
Yup. You've summed up the two dominant trends succinctly. AdMech Soup or Martian gunline, both can be backed by a Stygies or Lucius detachment or a Knight.
EDIT: These are the two working lists I have been going over the past week. Much more comfortable with the gunline because that has been what I have played in the past.
House Krast Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 475
Lord of War - 475 1x Knight Styrix - Volkite Chierovile, Reaper Chainsword, Graviton Crusher, Warlord: First Knight (-1 CP), Relic: Headsman's Mark (-1 CP)
Total: 1997 points 13 CP (-2)
Martian Gunline + Knight:
Spoiler:
Mars Battalion Detachment - 1324 Cohort Cybernetica (-1 CP)
HQ - 280 1x Belisarius Cawl
1x Tech-Priest Manipulus - Transonic Cannon, Relic: Raiment of the Techno-Martyr
House Krast Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 475
Lord of War - 475 1x Knight Styrix - Volkite Chierovile, Reaper Chainsword, Graviton Crusher, Warlord: First Knight (-1 CP), Relic: Headsman's Mark (-1 CP)
Total: 1999 points 13 CP (-3)
And one list that I toyed with but never posted before:
Spoiler:
Mars Battalion Detachment - 1100 Cohort Cybernetica (-1 CP)
HQ - 280 1x Belisarius Cawl
1x Tech-Priest Manipulus - Transonic Cannon, Relic: Raiment of the Techno-Martyr, Warlord: Monitor Malevolus
A question before i start putting my ranger's together. What is peoples opinion on the Arquebuses? Is it worth having one or two 5 man squads with 2 Arquebuses camping in the back field?
And are Vanguards ever worth the extra points over the cheaper rangers?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/08 22:53:59
Arquebuses are one of the best snipers in the meta right now. If you run Assassins, they definitely are good to have because Vindicare + 4-6 Arquebuses can pretty much shut down most character-driven strategies.
ThePie wrote: A question before i start putting my ranger's together. What is peoples opinion on the Arquebuses? Is it worth having one or two 5 man squads with 2 Arquebuses camping in the back field?
For me they are absolute steal. Before assassins rework they were best snipers in game, most of the games i take at least 6 distributed in 4 or 3 squads. While camping objectives, or just covering fire lanes they are serious threat to enemy characters. They put threat even to DP's. And if they don't kill them, dp with 4 wounds left is much leas threat than one with full health.
ThePie wrote: And are Vanguards ever worth the extra points over the cheaper rangers?
Yes, because they put out a loot of daka, and while rangers excel at siting in backfield, those guys are great to catch midfield objectives. Cancer gun is no joke, we are talking 8pts unit with 3 shots. This quickly adds up. Rule of thumb 3 shots s3 are on average equal to 1 shot s 4 for t4 target. And those 2D on 6 to wound can add up on things like venoms.
Don't forget rad saturation. While it isn't something that you should plan to use, it will often catch your opponent of guard if you can use it to reach break point for your other assault unit. Change t4 to t3 and you tasergoad infiltrators wound on 2s this mob of ork boys. Grotesques with homunculi? Now he doesn't matter and your fulgurites wound them on 4s again.
Plus, they actually fit better for plasma calipers if you ever wanted to use them. They aren't better than rangers, but in my opinion if you want to do two battalions 4x rangers and 2x vanguards is way to go.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/08 23:31:07
1. „Stab the shoty, shot the staby”
2. „Who bails, fails.”
3. „Act to win yourself and not for your opponent to lose.”
4. „If in dilemma between damage and durability, chose third- speed.”
5. „Focus fire.”
Ah, many thanks for the tips, il make some Vanguards to mix up with my Rangers then. Really looking forward to trying out playing admech, they seem really fun