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I m not sure the overwatch changed . I think its a bit written badly but it only states no stratagems in different phases. the last part say for this faq.. so the OW remains as i see it.

Really? I think the Martian gunline is the strongest list we have by far. We pretty much auto-win any shooting matchup, and it's not easy at all to play around 42" Dakkabots in a good placement. My teammates were all 4-2 as Deathwatch, Space Wolves (best Space Wolves in the world last year), and Eldar, and they all thought AdMech gunlines were scary hard to play and terribly underrated. In most games, I gun down 50-75% of my opponent's army in a single turn. I think if I had a more refined list, more games under my belt, and not-terrible luck, I could have done 5-1.

The other AdMech that played the assault list got wrecked at BAO. He even lost to Tau. (This is not to say that I don't like that sort of playstyle. I just think it's not the strategy we can succeed in the meta with anymore.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Yoda79 wrote:
I m not sure the overwatch changed . I think its a bit written badly but it only states no stratagems in different phases. the last part say for this faq.. so the OW remains as i see it.

"For the purposes of this FAQ, Overwatch attacks are not considered to be attacks made as if it were your Shooting phase."

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/05/29/warhammer-40000-update-april-2019-addendum/

We lose OW rerolls. Space Marines keep theirs.

I'm not at ease comparing with the ITC ruleset as I'm not familiar with it, but aren't lots of points rewarded for kill points ?

Yeah, you can score 1 point for killing one and 1 point for killing more units each round. In addition, you can take up to three secondaries that involve killing, and Dakkabots can kill pretty much everything.

But even if you're playing objectives, having Dakkabots is great for controlling movement. Just set them up with LOS to the wider areas. Control everything on the side of the board that you need to cross these areas to contest. It's how I have always used them. Alpha strike, control the ground, hold objectives and choke them out of points.

 Yoda79 wrote:
I m not sure the overwatch changed . I think its a bit written badly but it only states no stratagems in different phases. the last part say for this faq.. so the OW remains as i see it.

they added one word

Take this situation by way of example:


Everything my teammate had was just cowering in ruins. The safe plan would be to detach a unit to the left (Knight + Breachers) to grab the objective as well as a unit to the right (Enginseer + 2x Vanguard) to grab that objective. Meanwhile, the Robots (with 2x Breachers) sit there in the center out of LOS and wait while I accumulate points. Las-striders can just snipe that unit in the far, far corner; Dreads cannot be targeted because he has closer units hiding out of LOS. Once he is forced to deploy on round two or three, I come out and gun down his army. Indeed, after I counted coup, I fell back, reformed my gunline, then did exactly that; I gunned down 75% of his army in a single turn, and he went back to hiding. I only lost by 2 points, but my friend knew that I did not have to do what I did at the start. However, I figured that if one of us had to be 3-3, I might as well make the game more interesting--and fair.

 Suzuteo wrote:
Yeah, you can score 1 point for killing one and 1 point for killing more units each round. In addition, you can take up to three secondaries that involve killing, and Dakkabots can kill pretty much everything.

But even if you're playing objectives, having Dakkabots is great for controlling movement. Just set them up with LOS to the wider areas. Control everything on the side of the board that you need to cross these areas to contest. It's how I have always used them. Alpha strike, control the ground, hold objectives and choke them out of points.

Its more of a personal playstyle, i find that playing gunline is boring so i force more assaulty lists. triple onager + plasma destroyers + ironstriders is still a ton of firepower and allows me to kill a lot of stuff. Keep in mind that i'm not a tournament player, i consider myself a decent player but i only play in small tournaments at my LGS. tournaments of the scale of LVO isnt something that i'd like to do.

When i say i play an assault list i mean that i force my opponents to deal with immediate threats while leaving my main threats mostly unscathed. I'll usually have stygies fulgurites either charging on turn 1 or close enough to force my opponent to gun them down before i charge in turn 2. while theyre dedicating firepower in my fulgurites, my main dakka is free to destroy their biggest threats. Ryzaphrons get 1-2 rounds of shooting before getting killed and then my onagers finish most of my games since i get rid of my opponent's anti-tank early and i give them pocket enginseers for the repairs.

I will concede that it is less interesting; it's a concession to be more competitive. I feel like I often blow someone out of the water and spend an hour slowly strangling them. That or I get totally blown out and forfeit by round three. Not much gray.

Ah. This year I am committing myself to play in the big tourneys. Last year, I missed many of them because of work.

I am excited for the transport because it means Fulgurites and possible Skitarii special weapons will be competitive again.

 Suzuteo wrote:
I will concede that it is less interesting; it's a concession to be more competitive. I feel like I often blow someone out of the water and spend an hour slowly strangling them. That or I get totally blown out and forfeit by round three. Not much gray.

Ah. This year I am committing myself to play in the big tourneys. Last year, I missed many of them because of work.

I am excited for the transport because it means Fulgurites and possible Skitarii special weapons will be competitive again.

Admech sure makes for some heavy hitting alpha strikes.

if the transport allows for 10 models i cannot wait to put 2 double plasma vanguard squads in them to imitate drukhari raiders

Watch, they're going to be dumb and set the limit at 9 instead of 10-11.

 Suzuteo wrote:
Watch, they're going to be dumb and set the limit at 9 instead of 10-11.

If they set the transport limit to 9 I will swim to England and throw a toaster in every single one of the rules teams' bath tubs. It'd be the perfect gotcha too, since it looks so perfect so far. Simple cheap weapons, probably good speed, some sort of aura buff for infantry, they would do something dumb like that

Yeah I'm waiting for the trap too, it's pessimistic but they failed the codex so far that why not ? Following the Manipulus I half expect the transport to be 150 pts.

I think they have a better sense of how to write rules now though. I bet if they did a mini-codex for AdMech, it could go a long way into diversifying our toolbox.

The more i play admech, the less i feel like we have a broken codex. sure its not optimal and the warlord traits / relics are particularly annoying since most of them arent playable, but the rules for our units arent broken for the most part. we may not have space-marine level of options but we do get mostly good units (corpuscarii and ruststalkers being the outliers but even the, can find some success).

I do agree with Suzuteo, they got better at writing rules, look at the most recent codex release and most of them are cohesive and bring interesting listbuilding choices. If they were to make an Admech 2.0 codex, i feel like we would get quite a lot of good updated rules (dogmas, canticles, Wl traits and relics).

The fact that they are coming out with a necron index soon means that maybe they started doing some updated versions of older codexes (like CSM just got)

All I really hope for form the revisited Admech are Ruststalkers, relics and WLTs redone. The amount of combat relics in the codex that has no combat characters is to high

This leads to the other problem - HQs. Admech could really benefit from something like Custom Characters mechanic from the CA18. Not only it could bridge the HQ gap, but it wouldn't also need new sprues and models in the busy line of GW releases. While Dominus could at last have a viability outside of being rerolling 1s platform.

I think their getting better at writing rules face is more theyre actually listening to the players this time around.
Majority of their changes are "We heard this..." or "People were doing this..." - it used to be we didnt get a damn thing out of GW unless it was so broken it blocked that army from playing (or people playing against that army).
Much as FFG is pissing me off lately im glad that Xwing topped 40k sales at one point. Made GW realize theyre screwing up, since sales they DID pay attention to lol.

We have some pretty bad rules and a limited model selection, but of those usable models, they are amazingly efficient. Still say we are a tier 2 army, capable of consistently doing 4-2 and sometimes 5-1. Real problem though is that we lacks non-LOS shooting and flying melee units.

Anyhow, I was mocking out plans against a friend, and I realize that passively screening is not a good idea at all. No matter how many Breachers I use, an army will find a way to blow a hole in that wall. It's not like trying to go through 6 layers of Catachans. So I have an alternative: replace Breachers with some Infiltrators.


My thinking is that they can be deep struck to delete enemy infantry or characters or be used as a part of your screen as a counter charger. (Ideally, hide them in some ruins so they don't get blasted away.) Make them Mars for Wrath and so Manipulus can give them 3" shooting or 1" move and charge.

Quick question: Pistols can only shoot at another enemy unit in combat if your Infiltrators are also stuck in combat AND that other enemy unit is the closest enemy unit, right? So I can't deep strike and shoot at, say, some Wulfen in close combat with my Dakkabots until I get stuck in with them with my Infiltrators?

 Suzuteo wrote:


Quick question: Pistols can only shoot at another enemy unit in combat if your Infiltrators are also stuck in combat AND that other enemy unit is the closest enemy unit, right? So I can't deep strike and shoot at, say, some Wulfen in close combat with my Dakkabots until I get stuck in with them with my Infiltrators?

Yes. Thats how pistols works(and also exclusive showing to other weapons). If i would have suggestion, make them 10. They are supper squishy, so be prepared to lose them after they DS. You might as well maximize wrath of mars from them. That 15 extra shots can be 1-3 MW and that can add up.
Always place them somewhere where they could charge something. Rarely happens, but when it happens they give immense value. Happened to me last game. They took by both shooting and melee two squads of harlequin bikes. That was twice their value in points, and great strategic value since bikes were hidden behind LoS.

I tried to like Infiltrators but honestly... I can't. Without the WoM they can reliably shoot T3 infantry, but that's it. 9" charges and T3 is killing their melee potential, as they will more often than not fail the roll and die afterwards to any fire and counter-charges. Besides... why would I want to take Infiltrators when there are Corpuscarii with a S5 tesla? Sure, I have to pay a CP to drop them via Lucius, but this bomb can erase practically any T4 horde unit, not to even mention Guardsman.

dadamowsky wrote:
I tried to like Infiltrators but honestly... I can't. Without the WoM they can reliably shoot T3 infantry, but that's it. 9" charges and T3 is killing their melee potential, as they will more often than not fail the roll and die afterwards to any fire and counter-charges. Besides... why would I want to take Infiltrators when there are Corpuscarii with a S5 tesla? Sure, I have to pay a CP to drop them via Lucius, but this bomb can erase practically any T4 horde unit, not to even mention Guardsman.

Because he takes them in mars. Its that simple. Infiltrators->mars, Corpuscari->lucius. Yes Infiltrators die when you look at them. But they provide very important tool. They are cheap enough to drop them and sacrifice in the name of won game. That is if we are talking taser infiltrators. Powersword with stygies, or less so graia, is actually quite good. And at 15pt they are good. Thats vanguard+ranger slapped into one body, and much more mobile, can fight in close combat and have innate ds potential.

No no no they completely went wrong with the codex, there's so much stuff not making any sense it's dramatic.

Let's start with the Dogmas: Metalica affects a very small part of the army, Lucius is almost pointless, if it reduced all AP by -1 it would be worthwhile but now it's just played for the stratagem. Ryza gives a meagre reroll 1s to Wound while stuff like BA get +1 to Wound when charging.

Warlord traits: there's Magos Biologis for our super WS3+ Dominus, Mechadominator for that annoying situation where an enemy vehicle is targeting your Warlord, or Chorister Technis when there's already two stratagems to change the Canticle. With the FW-specific, there's three good ones that benefit your army and 4 that serves to enhance your über-Dominus, you know, the centerpiece of our army that wrecks armies all by himself ?

Relics: SIX RELICS FOR CC, SIX. Then two for ranged weapons, which are not bad but not worth paying a CP for, and the rest is pretty useful except for the Skull of Elder Nikola, who's easily in the top 3 for most useless relic of all game.

Then I could write pages about the units and their weapons, like the Onager who suddenly hits like a fly in CC, Heavy weapons on fast platforms, the mystery of the Radium Jezzail, Ruststalkers with no AP, Brainwashed battle servitors with Ld7, emontionless cyborgs with Ld6, Arc weapons that suddenly don't wound real vehicles anymore (while Drukhari get their sweet Haywire)... Oh, and the HYDRAULIC CLAW with it's mighty S10-S12 and... AP-1 d3D.

I am constantly angry at this codex but it's getting better with updates and Vigilus, the new Skorpius is a huge step forwards too. I'm confident we'll get a working codex update this year.

As for Infiltrators: mine usually stay alive for a turn, but have almost always been useful. Being the only unit with innate DS brings mobility to go harass some unit or capture an objective, and my opponents are always amazed that 5 models blast out 25 shots, it shreds hordes cheaply. Don't expect them to stay alive though, they're like a squad of 10 Skitarii in durability and will die as easily. I wouldn't screen with them, but counter-charge ? Definitely. Power swords are a nice loadout too, but less versatile than the Taser/Blaster.

Huh. I was just making a list with similar pieces.



I'm new to ITC but is it worth having 7 Infiltrators instead of 5 if it gives up Marked for Death'? Also, I'm wondering if making that Graia dettachment mixed so the Enginseers can repair is worth it.

 Aaranis wrote:
No no no they completely went wrong with the codex, there's so much stuff not making any sense it's dramatic.

Let's start with the Dogmas: Metalica affects a very small part of the army, Lucius is almost pointless, if it reduced all AP by -1 it would be worthwhile but now it's just played for the stratagem. Ryza gives a meagre reroll 1s to Wound while stuff like BA get +1 to Wound when charging.

Warlord traits: there's Magos Biologis for our super WS3+ Dominus, Mechadominator for that annoying situation where an enemy vehicle is targeting your Warlord, or Chorister Technis when there's already two stratagems to change the Canticle. With the FW-specific, there's three good ones that benefit your army and 4 that serves to enhance your über-Dominus, you know, the centerpiece of our army that wrecks armies all by himself ?

Relics: SIX RELICS FOR CC, SIX. Then two for ranged weapons, which are not bad but not worth paying a CP for, and the rest is pretty useful except for the Skull of Elder Nikola, who's easily in the top 3 for most useless relic of all game.

Then I could write pages about the units and their weapons, like the Onager who suddenly hits like a fly in CC, Heavy weapons on fast platforms, the mystery of the Radium Jezzail, Ruststalkers with no AP, Brainwashed battle servitors with Ld7, emontionless cyborgs with Ld6, Arc weapons that suddenly don't wound real vehicles anymore (while Drukhari get their sweet Haywire)... Oh, and the HYDRAULIC CLAW with it's mighty S10-S12 and... AP-1 d3D.

I am constantly angry at this codex but it's getting better with updates and Vigilus, the new Skorpius is a huge step forwards too. I'm confident we'll get a working codex update this year.

As for Infiltrators: mine usually stay alive for a turn, but have almost always been useful. Being the only unit with innate DS brings mobility to go harass some unit or capture an objective, and my opponents are always amazed that 5 models blast out 25 shots, it shreds hordes cheaply. Don't expect them to stay alive though, they're like a squad of 10 Skitarii in durability and will die as easily. I wouldn't screen with them, but counter-charge ? Definitely. Power swords are a nice loadout too, but less versatile than the Taser/Blaster.

I cry everytime and 100% agree.

What I want to add is all the bits that is located on our minis that dont get rules anymore.

Servo skulls, Ruststalker grenades.. they literally have the pouches. Dunecrawler Drill.
That and the sad infiltrator debuff and the invulns that never come into play in skitarii, sicarians especially.

 Aaranis wrote:
No no no they completely went wrong with the codex, there's so much stuff not making any sense it's dramatic.

Let's start with the Dogmas: Metalica affects a very small part of the army, Lucius is almost pointless, if it reduced all AP by -1 it would be worthwhile but now it's just played for the stratagem. Ryza gives a meagre reroll 1s to Wound while stuff like BA get +1 to Wound when charging.

Warlord traits: there's Magos Biologis for our super WS3+ Dominus, Mechadominator for that annoying situation where an enemy vehicle is targeting your Warlord, or Chorister Technis when there's already two stratagems to change the Canticle. With the FW-specific, there's three good ones that benefit your army and 4 that serves to enhance your über-Dominus, you know, the centerpiece of our army that wrecks armies all by himself ?

Relics: SIX RELICS FOR CC, SIX. Then two for ranged weapons, which are not bad but not worth paying a CP for, and the rest is pretty useful except for the Skull of Elder Nikola, who's easily in the top 3 for most useless relic of all game.

Then I could write pages about the units and their weapons, like the Onager who suddenly hits like a fly in CC, Heavy weapons on fast platforms, the mystery of the Radium Jezzail, Ruststalkers with no AP, Brainwashed battle servitors with Ld7, emontionless cyborgs with Ld6, Arc weapons that suddenly don't wound real vehicles anymore (while Drukhari get their sweet Haywire)... Oh, and the HYDRAULIC CLAW with it's mighty S10-S12 and... AP-1 d3D.

I am constantly angry at this codex but it's getting better with updates and Vigilus, the new Skorpius is a huge step forwards too. I'm confident we'll get a working codex update this year.

As for Infiltrators: mine usually stay alive for a turn, but have almost always been useful. Being the only unit with innate DS brings mobility to go harass some unit or capture an objective, and my opponents are always amazed that 5 models blast out 25 shots, it shreds hordes cheaply. Don't expect them to stay alive though, they're like a squad of 10 Skitarii in durability and will die as easily. I wouldn't screen with them, but counter-charge ? Definitely. Power swords are a nice loadout too, but less versatile than the Taser/Blaster.

Cant really disagree. All of those are symptoms of early codex, when they had 3 ideas across and copy pasted them into the game in many places. Anything that came out after rapid fire codexes is actually good, if not for some mechanical reasons(tyrannies are good, but are invalidated by meta, and BA and DA are also ass good as marines can be). That said, our core is good. Actually good, not ok nor Outstanding, but good. Stratagems are good. Quality of units fluctuates but overall good. Relics are joke as are warlord traits and dogmas.

But moaning won't do us anything good. In fact I'm gonna write to rules team right now. You all should do that too. Ill ask them to consider reworking traits and realics, because dogmas you can argue may be good, but traits and relics are gak.

Dogmas also need looking at in regards to their specific stratagems......ryza: plasma specialist, dogma: reroll 1s to wound in combat?. Stygies: infiltrate, dogma: -1 to hit? Whatever list you build they are always at odds with each other. The strategem you want to use does not benefit the dogma, then for the dogma you want, the stratagem is useless. So we end up mixing fws or simply not optimising detachments, always 'giving up' something to sqeeze in what we need. As alot are realising going back to pure Mars is easier as its just a non issue for that fw. Just an opinion.

So i had a fun game against my ork playing friend and finally managed to eke out a close victory. 24-22 playing with ITC mission rules. Dunecrawlers and Kastelan robots were MVP.

His dreadwaagh big mek was a terror though and killed 1-2 kastellans or dunecrawlers every single turn even while hitting on 6's,

Im still not sure what i feel with the arquebuses, while decent and forcing opponent to play carefully to not expose his charaters (except his big mek which was cleverly defended by grot shields), i wonder if thoose points would be better spent on more screening units instead (by getting an additional one and turning the sniper squads into screening ones).

Anyhow the question is how many snipers are needed at 1250 pts, Would a single sniper squad with 2 arquebuses be enough or do you need 4 arquebuses to put out enough volume of fire to be a viable threat and thus worth thier points?

The problem began when they made guard versatile as we where canticles / order wise in 7th.

From that point on introducing the stratagem system they gave us our versatile fluff through stratagems .

That said the tools exist but the system updated for rest oof armies not us. Yes the decrease on points almost created broken good units point wise for us but still the army has no coherency.
I have spammed and begged for changes from the start of the edition .
With the increased cp count and combination of points decrease the army climbed butt still has no coherency. It does not have the flavor of ad mech .

The main issue here as I tried to stress out was that our units don't have any abilities and we have to pay every single one.
We don't have gear to pick up options or the hq to make combos .
Thus the flavors forge world's should be providing does not exist.

What I suggest that will not break the game but could easily fix it.

Invest in forrge world dogmas not stratagems . Example
You pick stygies. If all dtacment stygies then you can replace one canticles with stygies specific . Your hq will get an second aurrs fx a bit relics and warlord traits or give cp to pick up more. Thus limiitkng the performance if you mix but all players could decide their forge world playystyl e. With some combos and shenanigans .

How the army is now for me there is only some specific units that erform cause of point/ efficiency but does not have feel like an army .

I will have to leave out our Cawl Robot destroyers gun Line that is trully a force and has been our first major lists . It is unique still strong and balanced . It's strategic and has big eskness and at the same point lethal . There is none that faced the robots and didn't fear them. We gotta give them that.

So for me ATM in mech.

Cawl star (+ infiltrators yes)
Vehicle spam stygies
Troop spam mixed graia lucius

Are working in some extend + some smaller options like agripnna and ryza . The dev team can build on this and with me ttweaks to work it out .

One transport one los weapon simple units buff lik rustalkers maybe some extra flavor / forge world relics and warlord traits effective would be the go .
Simple things .

the_Grak wrote:
Huh. I was just making a list with similar pieces.

Spoiler:

Stygies VIII Battalion Detachment - 1289
Cybernetica Cohort (-1 CP)

HQ - 180
1x Tech_Priest Dominus - Warlord
1x Tech-Priest Manipulus - Transonic Cannon, Relic

Troop - 389
6x Kataphron Breacher - 6x Heavy Arc Rifle, 6x Arc Claw
5x Skitarii Ranger - 3x Galvanic Rifle, 2x Transuranic Arquebus, Omnispex
5x Skitarii Ranger - 3x Galvanic Rifle, 2x Transuranic Arquebus, Omnispex
5x Skitarii Ranger - 3x Galvanic Rifle, 2x Transuranic Arquebus

Elite - 110
5x Sicarian Infiltrator - 5x Flechette Blaster, 5x Taser Goad
4x Servitors - 4x Servo-arms

Heavy Support - 343
Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Cognis Stubber, Broad spectrum Data-tether
Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Cognis Stubber, Broad spectrum Data-tether
Onager Dunecrawler - Neutron Laser, 2x Cognis Stubber, Broad spectrum Data-tether

Fast Attack - 272
4x Sydonian Dragoon - 6x Taser Lance

Graia Battalion Detachment - 213

HQ - 60
1x Tech-Priest Enginseer
1x Tech-Priest Enginseer

Troop - 153
5x Skitarii Vanguard - 4x Radium Carbine, Plasma Caliver
5x Skitarii Vanguard - 4x Radium Carbine, Plasma Caliver
5x Skitarii Vanguard - 4x Radium Carbine, Plasma Caliver

Krast Super-heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 498
Exhalted Court, Heirlooms of the Household(-2 CP)

Lord of War- 498
Knight Crusader - Avenger Gatling Cannon, Rapid fire Battle Cannon, 2x Heavy Stubbers, Heavy Flamer, Icarus Auto-cannon, Headsman's Mark, First Knight

Total: 2000 points
10 CP

I'm new to ITC but is it worth having 7 Infiltrators instead of 5 if it gives up Marked for Death'? Also, I'm wondering if making that Graia dettachment mixed so the Enginseers can repair is worth it.

Yeah. 8 is the ideal number, but 7 comes close. Don't worry about M4D. It's a tough secondary compared to Gang Busters or Kingslayer. Worst comes to worst, you can deny him the M4D by dropping Infiltrators out of the way. (My general advice is not to worry too much about giving up points. Focus on scoring them, denying them, and winning the game in general.)

In my opinion, Stygies is good, but not very competitive for a shooting army. Ultimately, it does not matter how durable you are if you cannot kill things. The ability to reroll everything is extremely useful against other minus to hit matchups.

dadamowsky wrote:
I tried to like Infiltrators but honestly... I can't. Without the WoM they can reliably shoot T3 infantry, but that's it. 9" charges and T3 is killing their melee potential, as they will more often than not fail the roll and die afterwards to any fire and counter-charges. Besides... why would I want to take Infiltrators when there are Corpuscarii with a S5 tesla? Sure, I have to pay a CP to drop them via Lucius, but this bomb can erase practically any T4 horde unit, not to even mention Guardsman.

Well, Flechette Blasters are strictly better than Stubcarbines for T2-5. You ideally want to shoot T3 infantry, but they can kill T4 as well. With deep strike <12", rerolls, Wrath, and the +2 to hit, they can deal a lot of damage to Eldar bikes. Yes, they die immediately after, but that's sort of the point. You expend these models to buy a turn for your gunline or to assassinate a character.

I like the forgeworld changing canticles idea and agree with everything else. If only GW worked closer with us Admech players.. I would gladly work with them.
I have accumulated a lot of data regarding 8th edition admech. Which started because I felt our fluff was gone. Anyone who likes a long Admech read can feel free to join and comment from anything tactical to fluff and creative ideas to make us more unique and stand out as the greedy cult that we are.

Not to be downer 0XFallen, but nobody gives a crap about such "propositions". Proplayers that are actual beta testers were giving them propositions and solutions for various reasons and topics and they didn't listen. The only sing that they listen seams to be short feedback in i form"hey i think that X and Y are wrong because Z, and that makes army clunky" without propositions. Especially if voiced in quality.