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From my experience, fewer large units of Breachers. Here is my pro/con:
+Easier to maintain distance for auras; important for gunlines
+Easier to make good use of repairs
+Piles in better
+Gets +1 to hit stratagem if bringing Servitor Maniple
+Gives up less points for M4D
-More vulnerable to D3 weapons like Thunder Hammers
-Takes up less troop slots
-Harder to get cover; bring Mars for reliable Shroudpsalm
In terms of ideal size, Mars wants 4-9x, Stygies 4-6x, Agripinaa always 6x.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/03 22:12:28
Suzuteo wrote: From my experience, fewer large units of Breachers. Here is my pro/con:
+Easier to maintain distance for auras; important for gunlines
+Easier to make good use of repairs; Agripinaa wants 6x
+Piles in better
+Gets +1 to hit stratagem if bringing Servitor Maniple
+Gives up less points for M4D
-More vulnerable to D3 weapons like Thunder Hammers
-Takes up less troop slots
-Harder to get cover; bring Mars for reliable Shroudpsalm
Many thanks for your notes and ideas. I am planning on running 6 in a servitor maniple as well as 6 plasmaphrons (not yet decided on forgeworld but probably stygies). I was planning on giving the destroyers the 5++, should I do the same for the breachers, I am thinking yes? The +1 to hit will be on the destroyers probably, although I am also planning on Kastellans so I could use elimination volley and servitor maniple +1 to hit if I have enough CP.
Breachers do not need the 5++. This is because they have a natural 2+ with Shroudpsalm; bringing Cawl adds to the consistency. There are no -4 weapons worth shooting at Breachers.
Destroyers may benefit from 5++ situationally. S6 AP-2 weapons are very common. There are also a few AP-3 weapons worth pointing at Destroyers, as they usually are a must-kill threat to the enemies bearing those AP-3 weapons.
If you see Thunder Hammers, give the Breachers 5++.
Remember, you get to choose whether or not to use the stratagem before the battle begins at the same time you pick your WLTs.
Automatically Appended Next Post: If I were to be brutally honesty though: Don't invest in your Breachers. Over 6 games at BAO, I can count on one hand the number of times they contributed to my damage output. They shoot like crap, even with Cawl rerolls, against anything that is not a vehicle. They fight even worse, since you don't get buffs. We bring them because they are big, CHEAP T5 bricks that shrug off bolters and heavy stubbers like rain drops; everyone relies on S4 shooting because GEQs are still the best screen in most armies. Take one or two big units and put them in front of your Skitarii (or behind in some cases) to buy two turns of shooting.
On that point, every CP you have should be contributing to making your firebase output more wounds. Infiltrate, Doctrina, Wrath of Mars, maybe a damage reroll. The only defensive stratagem that I use is Graia's Abhor. Because when it boils down to it, when you run a gunline, you win if you outshoot your opponent; if you kill enough of his pieces in rounds 1-2 that he cannot enact his game plan.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/06/03 22:55:21
Yeah. I'm thinking one big unit of Stygies Breachers without any buffs. Minus to hit makes them a much more durable screen; the favored method seems to be to use spells and shooting to blow holes and fly over the survivors. They can be infiltrated 9" for more depth.
Wondering if mixing my Mars battalion with Graia infantry is worth it though. Abhor is great, but I lose out on try chances for Shroudpsalm, which matters for the firebase units later on in the game.
I know everyone is at the kataphron trip atm. I personally dont use them nor electropriests for aesthetic reasons and want to look at non Cawlstar lists.
Main plan is to have tough and long range units, which are then supported by a massive deepstrike having first turn shroudpsalm and 2nd turn rerolling 1s.
Main concern is that I have too much in deepstrike that I might not be able to utilize well.
0XFallen wrote: I know everyone is at the kataphron trip atm. I personally dont use them nor electropriests for aesthetic reasons and want to look at non Cawlstar lists. Main plan is to have tough and long range units, which are then supported by a massive deepstrike having first turn shroudpsalm and 2nd turn rerolling 1s. Main concern is that I have too much in deepstrike that I might not be able to utilize well.
Exalted Court [-1CP]: Exalted Court: 1 Extra Warlord Trait
Heirlooms of the Household [-1CP]: Heirlooms of the Household: 1 Extra Heirloom
Household Choice: House <Custom>, Questor Mechanicus
+ Lord of War +
Knight Crusader [25 PL, 1CP, 468pts]: Character (Exalted Court), Character (Heirloom of the House), Heavy Stubber, Heirloom: Endless Fury, Ironstorm Missile Pod, Thermal Cannon, Warlord Trait: Cunning Commander . Avenger Gatling Cannon w/ Heavy Flamer: Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer
++ Total: [126 PL, -1CP, 1,999pts] ++
If the second detachment is mixed one, then drop arc pistols and weapons from vanguards and give them data theters. for one it gives you target for doctrina start, and two, it reduces chance for losing plasma to morale. Other than that, this list is supper dependent on terrain. And katpahrons are new hotness because its additional good unit, but nothing above that. About list... nothing outstanding, but also nothing to weak. Altough i would rather take some dragoons instead of single balistarii.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/06/04 16:47:43
1. „Stab the shoty, shot the staby”
2. „Who bails, fails.”
3. „Act to win yourself and not for your opponent to lose.”
4. „If in dilemma between damage and durability, chose third- speed.”
5. „Focus fire.”
0XFallen wrote: I know everyone is at the kataphron trip atm. I personally dont use them nor electropriests for aesthetic reasons and want to look at non Cawlstar lists.
Main plan is to have tough and long range units, which are then supported by a massive deepstrike having first turn shroudpsalm and 2nd turn rerolling 1s.
Main concern is that I have too much in deepstrike that I might not be able to utilize well.
Exalted Court [-1CP]: Exalted Court: 1 Extra Warlord Trait
Heirlooms of the Household [-1CP]: Heirlooms of the Household: 1 Extra Heirloom
Household Choice: House <Custom>, Questor Mechanicus
+ Lord of War +
Knight Crusader [25 PL, 1CP, 468pts]: Character (Exalted Court), Character (Heirloom of the House), Heavy Stubber, Heirloom: Endless Fury, Ironstorm Missile Pod, Thermal Cannon, Warlord Trait: Cunning Commander
. Avenger Gatling Cannon w/ Heavy Flamer: Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer
++ Total: [126 PL, -1CP, 1,999pts] ++
If the second detachment is mixed one, then drop arc pistols and weapons from vanguards and give them data theters. for one it gives you target for doctrina start, and two, it reduces chance for losing plasma to morale. Other than that, this list is supper dependent on terrain. And katpahrons are new hotness because its additional good unit, but nothing above that.
About list... nothing outstanding, but also nothing to weak. Aldought i would rather take some dragoons instead of single balistarii.
I only own one magnetized chicken sadly. I will give them DT.
Why do you think the list is dependent on terrain, because of the 6 snipers? I thought having a big deepstriking force would somehow negate that, plus onagers are mobile too.
0XFallen wrote: I know everyone is at the kataphron trip atm. I personally dont use them nor electropriests for aesthetic reasons and want to look at non Cawlstar lists.
Main plan is to have tough and long range units, which are then supported by a massive deepstrike having first turn shroudpsalm and 2nd turn rerolling 1s.
Main concern is that I have too much in deepstrike that I might not be able to utilize well.
Exalted Court [-1CP]: Exalted Court: 1 Extra Warlord Trait
Heirlooms of the Household [-1CP]: Heirlooms of the Household: 1 Extra Heirloom
Household Choice: House <Custom>, Questor Mechanicus
+ Lord of War +
Knight Crusader [25 PL, 1CP, 468pts]: Character (Exalted Court), Character (Heirloom of the House), Heavy Stubber, Heirloom: Endless Fury, Ironstorm Missile Pod, Thermal Cannon, Warlord Trait: Cunning Commander
. Avenger Gatling Cannon w/ Heavy Flamer: Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer
++ Total: [126 PL, -1CP, 1,999pts] ++
If the second detachment is mixed one, then drop arc pistols and weapons from vanguards and give them data theters. for one it gives you target for doctrina start, and two, it reduces chance for losing plasma to morale. Other than that, this list is supper dependent on terrain. And katpahrons are new hotness because its additional good unit, but nothing above that.
About list... nothing outstanding, but also nothing to weak. Aldought i would rather take some dragoons instead of single balistarii.
I only own one magnetized chicken sadly. I will give them DT.
Why do you think the list is dependent on terrain, because of the 6 snipers? I thought having a big deepstriking force would somehow negate that, plus onagers are mobile too.
Because you need to hide your units using los and gaining cover if possible. This army does have mainly t3, and you will be in enemy range of fire, possible in rf even, you need terrain to minimize friepresure that our opponent can exert on your units. You have knight but you will want to contest midfield objectives with vanguards and other ds-ers, and if you loos them to fast you may table your opponent but still lose on points.
1. „Stab the shoty, shot the staby”
2. „Who bails, fails.”
3. „Act to win yourself and not for your opponent to lose.”
4. „If in dilemma between damage and durability, chose third- speed.”
5. „Focus fire.”
Going to bite the bullet and try out this Elimination Volley thing. Just hide a minimum unit of Destroyers somewhere and pop them out for a surprise plasma. Monitor Malevolus to help maintain my CP. Moved the Dragoons into the Stygies detachment to save 1 CP. Big unit of Stygies Breachers that can be infiltrated to create depth, two Stygies Rangers for Engineers secondary. Raiment to discourage people from directly charging my Dakkabots (very sad about the un-buffed Overwatch).
Decided not to run Graia because I want the Shroudpsalm for my Martians. Also, not sure if I can afford to use 1-2 CP to deny psychic. I am looking to burn 6-9 CP in a single round of shooting, then 3-5 CP on rounds two and three.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/05 10:35:32
Going to bite the bullet and try out this Elimination Volley thing. Just hide a minimum unit of Destroyers somewhere and pop them out for a surprise plasma. Monitor Malevolus to help maintain my CP. Moved the Dragoons into the Stygies detachment to save 1 CP. Big unit of Stygies Breachers that can be infiltrated to create depth, two Stygies Rangers for Engineers secondary. Raiment to discourage people from directly charging my Dakkabots (very sad about the un-buffed Overwatch).
Decided not to run Graia because I want the Shroudpsalm for my Martians. Also, not sure if I can afford to use 1-2 CP to deny psychic. I am looking to burn 6-9 CP in a single round of shooting, then 3-5 CP on rounds two and three.
Looks perfectly good really. If you wanted more CP you can remove two Dragoons and a Breacher for a min Graia Battalion. With that list I'd be out of CP in turn two for sure, possibly turn one if there's a need to Acquisition At Any Cost and auto-pass morale on the Breachers.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/06/05 11:16:23
Yeah I get that, it's a bit of a bind. I always debate with myself about whether the extra CP from a min detachment is worth the sort of dead points. Hard to say no to enough extra CP for another turn WoM + EV. Also buys you some more screens, two characters for blocking deepstrike and the deny strat.
The only limitation for Cawl I know about is he has to come with a <Mars> keyword. But as we can include <Mars> in the <mixed > I see no reason why wouldn't we be able to do so - no part of his rules restricts us at least.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/06 11:47:19
so I have just purchased my third plastic (GW) Enginseer. and I was wondering if anyone had any ideas on how to make him stand out a bit/make him look different from the others. I am not looking for a huge adjustment just a few mionr tweaks here and there.
The Forgemaster wrote: so I have just purchased my third plastic (GW) Enginseer. and I was wondering if anyone had any ideas on how to make him stand out a bit/make him look different from the others. I am not looking for a huge adjustment just a few mionr tweaks here and there.
My first Enginseer was actually a small conversion/kitbash because I wanted to build an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor, so I cut off both his hands and replaced them by a transsonic blade and a flechette blaster. He stayed this way ever since.
I got the Tech-Priest from the Rogue Trader box and I'm going to use him as a second Enginseer, he don't have a melee weapon but who cares.
I got info from a contact, that says the Transport is due with the release of apocalypse that is scheduled for the end of june. Hope reveals are coming soon.
@The Forgemaster
I have two of the Macrotek Enginseers, one regular plastic one, and the Anvil London Inquisitor with a spare servo arm attached to him.
If you want differentiation, would just add bits, maybe swap the head.
@0XFallen
I cannot wait.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So I have been reviewing AdMech lists, and I have spotted some trends.
Successful AdMech lists tend to have the following:
2x4-6 Breachers, typically Stygies or Mars
4x Mars Dakkabots, sometimes with 3x Plasmaphrons
2x5-6 Ryzaphrons + 3x Dakkabots
5-6x Stygies Dragoon Bomb
12x Stygies Fulgurites + Drill
Krast Crusader
More rarely:
15-20x Lucius Corpuscarii
7-10x Mars Infiltrator
Ironstriders, usually in Brigades
Krast Warden or Styrix
Raven Castellan
I think it's becoming more apparent that the top dog is going to be Astra Militarum. The Eldar aircraft spam list seems to have lost popularity after BAO. Eldar tends to be Warlocks supported by a few aircraft now; see my battle report for a good example. Tau doesn't seem to be able to overcome the combination of Wyverns, Chimeras, and Tank Commanders.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/08 07:54:36
The Forgemaster wrote: so I have just purchased my third plastic (GW) Enginseer. and I was wondering if anyone had any ideas on how to make him stand out a bit/make him look different from the others. I am not looking for a huge adjustment just a few mionr tweaks here and there.
Here's an easy way - you just need to change is pose from striding forward bolding, shoulders square to being slightly at an angle as if he is turning to face something. Fortunately the robes and the foot forward actually do a lot of work for you here, so all you need to do is change the angle of the head and arms, and it's pretty easy to trick the eye into thinking he's doing something wholly different from the stock model.
Arms are quite easy as the top of the hood/cowl conceals the shoulders and most of the upper arms. Cut the axe free of one hand, and then reattach the end and you'll find this shorter axe is the perfect height to hold vertically. Arms don't need a lot of messing with once you cut them free, just slightly rotating where the top goes up into the cowl and a cut at the wrist to rotate the hand - there's even a nice guideline for this built into the gauntlet. Free arm is now free to do whatever you wanted - as long you wanted an arm at rest...but a guard laspistol is the perfect size to cover up the join of the axe and his weird 'trigger mittens' seem almost designed for a weapon swap (plus he comes with a lasgun).
Then cut off the head and replace it with a Skitarii one.Takes a little trimming and is easier to do when it's in bits. Key thing is to not just try it all in one go, but to slowly chop off large bits and then tidy it up with a knife once the bulk has been removed.
I've used a cloaked ranger one but the 'neutral' hoodless/helmetless ones also look good (slightly more commanding even - but I liked the look of slight trepidation the wide goggles gave, perfect for a low ranking techpriest being ordered into a tombworld by some Archmagos in orbit).
Final part is then rotating the power arm and adding other gubbins to try to sell the new pose - lining up things with the new direction of his head.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/08 15:20:44
Alright, so this weekend i busted out the forgeworld models at a weekly league-tournament thing that my LGS is organising. Usually forgeworld models are opt-in but for that tournament, anything goes. I tried a list with the drill, hoplites and an atropos.
It was a slaughter.
I ended up against eldar and the only thing he managed to kill was 2 vanguards. He put everything he could in the atropos but didnt manage to take it down. I then proceeded to table him before his second turn.
Now there was a lot of bad rolls on his part but i feel like the Mechanicus-alighned knights (basically all the ones that have a melee invuln and permanent RIS) are really good since they allow the rest of the army to use most CP's.
I've played with crusaders/gallants before and they would chew through so many CPs that the rest of the army would underperform. I personally run a sevitor maniple with destroyers so thats 2 cp/turn, i'll usually use the +1/+2 to hit stratagem every turn, dunestriders, rage of the machine and a splash of tech-adept so my cps get used pretty quick for the main force.
I remember @Suzuteo running a krast(?) Styrix a while back and now im really tempted to try it out.
What was the Eldar list? That Warlock + aircraft list is scary in its wound output.
And yeah, the Krast Styrix is pretty strong. He's got a great variety of weapons and can really put the hurt on T7 and T4 enemies. A lot of elite armies actually rely on those two bands. Very efficient in terms of CP expenditure too.
Ultimately though, I switched over to Crusader for BAO, but I actually feel it underperformed. Not having an invulnerable save while fighting was definitely a problem. I think I was less willing to throw him into CC against enemies than normally. Shooting was also mediocre in any game where I had to deal with minus to hit and primarily <10W enemies.
This all being said, I am not sure if a solo Knight is optimal in ITC anymore. The likelihood of having to deal with another Knight is much lower now, and many lists have ways to kill a solo Knight, which means free Kingslayer for them.
I personally am switching to 6x Dragoons. Fast-moving with infiltration; high attack count, hit, and strength melee attacks; and minus 2 to hit is a nightmare for many lists to deal with, especially BS4 armies like Tau and Guard. I think the latter is definitely the list to beat now.
Suzuteo wrote: What was the Eldar list? That Warlock + aircraft list is scary in its wound output.
And yeah, the Krast Styrix is pretty strong. He's got a great variety of weapons and can really put the hurt on T7 and T4 enemies. A lot of elite armies actually rely on those two bands. Very efficient in terms of CP expenditure too.
Ultimately though, I switched over to Crusader for BAO, but I actually feel it underperformed. Not having an invulnerable save while fighting was definitely a problem. I think I was less willing to throw him into CC against enemies than normally. Shooting was also mediocre in any game where I had to deal with minus to hit and primarily <10W enemies.
This all being said, I am not sure if a solo Knight is optimal in ITC anymore. The likelihood of having to deal with another Knight is much lower now, and many lists have ways to kill a solo Knight, which means free Kingslayer for them.
I personally am switching to 6x Dragoons. Fast-moving with infiltration; high attack count, hit, and strength melee attacks; and minus 2 to hit is a nightmare for many lists to deal with, especially BS4 armies like Tau and Guard. I think the latter is definitely the list to beat now.
i will make a point that the list i played against definitly was not a highly competitive list.
Out of memory it ran :
4 dark reapers
5 dark reapers
1 hemlock
1 wave serpent
5 wraithblades
1 spiritseer
1 warp hunter
1 avatar of khaine
farseer warlord
rangers + dire avengers to fill out the list.
it had a lot of anti-tank so i was expecting my knight to die when he said he was putting everything in him. Luckily i denied Jinx with graia and he whiffed on his doom/guide so that heavily nerfed his damage output, still had to live through a shooting phase + an avatar of khaine melee phase.
I personally dont run knights anymore, i'd rather stay pure admech. (This weekend i did play knight so i'd have fun with my forgeworld stuff). dragoons are really strong, i should really get my 6th one. at the moment i've been having a lot of success with a 15 fulgurite blob ran as stygies with a manipulus to slingshot them across the board for the possible T1 charge.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/10 17:41:34
I'm really interested in us getting rules for those new FW armiger variants; Especially the Volkite + siege claw + rad cleanser combo on the more affordable platform having two mini styrix would be awesome!
Octovol wrote: I'm really interested in us getting rules for those new FW armiger variants; Especially the Volkite + siege claw + rad cleanser combo on the more affordable platform having two mini styrix would be awesome!
Me too, i love the carapace that they give to forgeworld knights. Sadly i feel like were going to wait a looong time before we get any rules. Just look how long it took for the Acastus Asterius to get released. And it ended up not having rules for 40k.
Speaking of the Asterius, while i love the look of the porphyrion, the acastus is a no-go for me for one single reason (dont look if you dont want the model ruined for you)
Spoiler:
The back armor doesnt line-up with the mechanicum symbol
Oh i dont own either of the acastus chassis.
The porphyrion looks amazing overall but the asterius isnt quite as polished, the back armor being a good example of why.
Also, for two knights of the same chassis, they barely look similar apart from the legs.
all the other chassis are easily recognizable, the asterius doesnt even have the same way of linking the weapons to the body
Praise the Omnissiah
