Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:

LMoras wrote:
Hey guys, I'm sorry if this has been answered before but which is the way to deal with the Canticles rolling when I have an Admech army with two different Forger worlds and one of them is Mars with Belisarius Cawl on it?
Is there any FAQ out there clarifying that? I could not find it. Thanks!

I've always read it that you roll single Canticles for all Ad Mech, regardless of Detachment or Forgeworld - so having a Mars would also benefit the other non-mars detachments, unless there's anything that says differently?

You roll for everyone first, and then Mars while the first dice is still visible. That or use two different dice. You can +1/-1 each of the dice. (Codex says you have to do both simultaneously, so you need both results visible, but it's a headache to figure out which one was "first.")

EDIT: This is probably more closely follows RAW.

Suzuteo wrote:

 MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:

LMoras wrote:
Hey guys, I'm sorry if this has been answered before but which is the way to deal with the Canticles rolling when I have an Admech army with two different Forger worlds and one of them is Mars with Belisarius Cawl on it?
Is there any FAQ out there clarifying that? I could not find it. Thanks!

I've always read it that you roll single Canticles for all Ad Mech, regardless of Detachment or Forgeworld - so having a Mars would also benefit the other non-mars detachments, unless there's anything that says differently?

You roll for everyone first, and then Mars while the first dice is still visible. That or use two different dice. You can +1/-1 each of the dice. (Codex says you have to do both simultaneously, so you need both results visible, but it's a headache to figure out which one was "first.")

EDIT: This is probably more closely follows RAW.

All the reference to Canticles is that they are army wide - with Mars is just states that you add another cancitle, I've not read anything about this Canticle being specific to Mars Forgeworld - unless you spotted something I missed?

 MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:

Suzuteo wrote:

 MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:

LMoras wrote:
Hey guys, I'm sorry if this has been answered before but which is the way to deal with the Canticles rolling when I have an Admech army with two different Forger worlds and one of them is Mars with Belisarius Cawl on it?
Is there any FAQ out there clarifying that? I could not find it. Thanks!

I've always read it that you roll single Canticles for all Ad Mech, regardless of Detachment or Forgeworld - so having a Mars would also benefit the other non-mars detachments, unless there's anything that says differently?

You roll for everyone first, and then Mars while the first dice is still visible. That or use two different dice. You can +1/-1 each of the dice. (Codex says you have to do both simultaneously, so you need both results visible, but it's a headache to figure out which one was "first.")

EDIT: This is probably more closely follows RAW.

All the reference to Canticles is that they are army wide - with Mars is just states that you add another cancitle, I've not read anything about this Canticle being specific to Mars Forgeworld - unless you spotted something I missed?

The Mars dogma is to roll two dice for Canticles. Mars gets both, but the "first" one is for your army.

Whatever method you use, three elements remain:
1) Roll two dice, with one being the first dice.
2) Make decisions with both dice results visible, with the dice designated "not-first" applying only to models with the Mars dogma.
3) You can +1 or -1 to either roll, as Cawl's ability does not specific otherwise.

Suzuteo wrote:

 MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:

Suzuteo wrote:

 MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:

LMoras wrote:
Hey guys, I'm sorry if this has been answered before but which is the way to deal with the Canticles rolling when I have an Admech army with two different Forger worlds and one of them is Mars with Belisarius Cawl on it?
Is there any FAQ out there clarifying that? I could not find it. Thanks!

I've always read it that you roll single Canticles for all Ad Mech, regardless of Detachment or Forgeworld - so having a Mars would also benefit the other non-mars detachments, unless there's anything that says differently?

You roll for everyone first, and then Mars while the first dice is still visible. That or use two different dice. You can +1/-1 each of the dice. (Codex says you have to do both simultaneously, so you need both results visible, but it's a headache to figure out which one was "first.")

EDIT: This is probably more closely follows RAW.

All the reference to Canticles is that they are army wide - with Mars is just states that you add another cancitle, I've not read anything about this Canticle being specific to Mars Forgeworld - unless you spotted something I missed?

The Mars dogma is to roll two dice for Canticles. Mars gets both, but the "first" one is for your army.

Whatever method you use, three elements remain:
1) Roll two dice, with one being the first dice.
2) Make decisions with both dice results visible, with the dice designated "not-first" applying only to models with the Mars dogma.
3) You can +1 or -1 to either roll, as Cawl's ability does not specific otherwise.

"All models with this dogma receive the benefits of the second roll of the cancitles well, instead of just the first". Ah yes, I see it, thx

I think it was in the admech FAQ as well. I dont remember how the re-roll the canticle strategm works with mars though, that might be in the faq as well.

Won 1st place with chaos daemons(new codex) 16ppl rtt. Fought admech game two. Easiest victory ever. Turn 1 I had 75% of the board rofl.

Poor admech ._.

Opponent lists weren't tryhard but It was my first time playing the codex daemons (or should I say Deepstrike daemons, because that's the main thing they got)

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Won 1st place with chaos daemons(new codex) 16ppl rtt. Fought admech game two. Easiest victory ever. Turn 1 I had 75% of the board rofl.

Poor admech ._.

Opponent lists weren't tryhard but It was my first time playing the codex daemons (or should I say Deepstrike daemons, because that's the main thing they got)

What did they field, and what made it so easy to beat them?

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Won 1st place with chaos daemons(new codex) 16ppl rtt. Fought admech game two. Easiest victory ever. Turn 1 I had 75% of the board rofl.

Poor admech ._.

Opponent lists weren't tryhard but It was my first time playing the codex daemons (or should I say Deepstrike daemons, because that's the main thing they got)

More proof that competitive imperium has 3 squads of scout marines. If you can't scout deploy, then deepstrike lists will eat you.

Wulfey wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Won 1st place with chaos daemons(new codex) 16ppl rtt. Fought admech game two. Easiest victory ever. Turn 1 I had 75% of the board rofl.

Poor admech ._.

Opponent lists weren't tryhard but It was my first time playing the codex daemons (or should I say Deepstrike daemons, because that's the main thing they got)

More proof that competitive imperium has 3 squads of scout marines. If you can't scout deploy, then deepstrike lists will eat you.

Or maybe we should be looking at an alternative to a one-trick pony list which only works if you can keep you opponent at arms length.

 MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:

Wulfey wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Won 1st place with chaos daemons(new codex) 16ppl rtt. Fought admech game two. Easiest victory ever. Turn 1 I had 75% of the board rofl.

Poor admech ._.

Opponent lists weren't tryhard but It was my first time playing the codex daemons (or should I say Deepstrike daemons, because that's the main thing they got)

More proof that competitive imperium has 3 squads of scout marines. If you can't scout deploy, then deepstrike lists will eat you.

Or maybe we should be looking at an alternative to a one-trick pony list which only works if you can keep you opponent at arms length.

I don't think that those deepstrike list are only a problem of the Cawlstar. Say you play the classic guard gunline with lots of stuff and not just a focus on castle. You really rely on damaging the opponent before they come to you. But if they deepstrike everything and then charge you, well then you have a big problem.


@wulfey
How are you kitting out your scouts? Just with bolters to keep them cheap or sniper rifles?

 lash92 wrote:

 MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:

Wulfey wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Won 1st place with chaos daemons(new codex) 16ppl rtt. Fought admech game two. Easiest victory ever. Turn 1 I had 75% of the board rofl.

Poor admech ._.

Opponent lists weren't tryhard but It was my first time playing the codex daemons (or should I say Deepstrike daemons, because that's the main thing they got)

More proof that competitive imperium has 3 squads of scout marines. If you can't scout deploy, then deepstrike lists will eat you.

Or maybe we should be looking at an alternative to a one-trick pony list which only works if you can keep you opponent at arms length.

I don't think that those deepstrike list are only a problem of the Cawlstar. Say you play the classic guard gunline with lots of stuff and not just a focus on castle. You really rely on damaging the opponent before they come to you. But if they deepstrike everything and then charge you, well then you have a big problem.


@wulfey
How are you kitting out your scouts? Just with bolters to keep them cheap or sniper rifles?

I think all the points in the scouts should be towards more bodies. Any upgrades feel like wastes since I have so many options that generate damage for the points (robots, neutrons, basilisk, mortars). Mine will be bare 55 point squads with possibly 2 point storm bolter upgrades if I run out of damage upgrade points elsewhere. Camo cloaks are good .. but they cost as much as another scout body and have counters and require terrain. In my mind, the scout squads are disposable screen units that I will use to charge out of LOS if they survive for a turn. Also, I don't have a space marine pure detachment so I don't have strategems or chapter tactics. So any points spent on the scouts is kind of bad. Sniper rifles seem like complete wastes. The idea of the scouts is to move and block things, not hold still and shoot. So basic bolters looks good to me. I could see the shot gun ... but then you lose some flexibility for that chance that you can get into 6" range. But then again then they can advance and shoot at 12". I could also see the argument for combat knives to maximize combat value since they are guaranteed to be in assault against an asssault army.

EDIT: balance whine mode here. A pure daemons codex army has guaranteed deep strikes and can full stop all STYGIES infiltration using 3 nurgling squads. A pure ADMECH codex army is just dead against any basic deepstriking daemons list. ADMECH has no way to space out the deepstrike since it can't 'scout'. 7 point rangers are terrible screening units against 7 point bloodletters. If you want to keep talking tactics post Eldar, Daemons, and Heretic Astartes Codexes ... you can't be talking pure admech. Pure admech isn't viable against a well made list from those codexes.

EDIT: going further, when I say pure admech, I am assuming 4-5 dakkabots and cawl. If you don't have mortal wound generation, you simply aren't in the game against opponents who can spam invulnerable saves. STYGIES -1 to be hit in shooting just doesn't matter versus daemon assault armies, primarchs who don't shoot, and dark reapers who ignore modifiers.

 MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Won 1st place with chaos daemons(new codex) 16ppl rtt. Fought admech game two. Easiest victory ever. Turn 1 I had 75% of the board rofl.

Poor admech ._.

Opponent lists weren't tryhard but It was my first time playing the codex daemons (or should I say Deepstrike daemons, because that's the main thing they got)

What did they field, and what made it so easy to beat them?

1250pts ITC(doesn't get much better where I live)

6x Elyssians, 2x taurox, 3 onagers, astro, 2 generic IG HQs, enginseer

He put 10 elysians as screen, who melted to pinks turn one. And taurox on the other side. WIth 3D6 charge I charged both tauroxes on separate sides(Despite one not being in 12' range so I couldn't punch it). On my opponents turn, all he had left to deepstrike was 50% of his deployment zone. Turn 2 I deepstrike everything else and mop up the rest. :x

My soup detachment is a company commander, inquisitor, 3 scout units and a culexus. Played 2 games versus New daemons yesterday and won both in round 2. Scouts and a culexus are a must in every imperial army. This combo shuts down a lot the daemons got to offer and of course a lot of other armies as well.

I do agree that Deep Strike seems to have become way too accessible. It was okay when it was just Tau and Guard doing it, but Webway Strike and the new Daemons are ridiculously mobile.

So what would be the cheapest way to get Scouts on the board? An Outrider with 3x Scouts led by a Primaris Psyker? That is 211 points...

But yeah, screening is all about bodies. Doesn't matter how durable they are or how good their weapons are. Their job is to absorb bullets, deny deep strike, and if they are troops, hold objectives with sheer numbers.

Haven't read the Demons Codex yet. What's up with the Nurglings and how can they stop your infiltration?

 lash92 wrote:
Haven't read the Demons Codex yet. What's up with the Nurglings and how can they stop your infiltration?

They can deploy anywhere up to 9" from the enemy deployment zone.

Suzuteo wrote:

 lash92 wrote:
Haven't read the Demons Codex yet. What's up with the Nurglings and how can they stop your infiltration?

They can deploy anywhere up to 9" from the enemy deployment zone.

which is why you need scouts. 1. to deny enemy dropzones and 2. to secure your own dropzones (e.g. for Stygies and Lucius units, Culexus, etc.).

Hm. Would you guys let someone get away with running Skitarii Rangers as Scouts?

Or should I just buy 15 Bolters and 15 Boltguns attach them to some leftover Skitarii. Got lots of robes and heads left over...

Suzuteo wrote:
Hm. Would you guys let someone get away with running Skitarii Rangers as Scouts?

Or should I just buy 15 Bolters and 15 Boltguns attach them to some leftover Skitarii. Got lots of robes and heads left over...

I am not sure if Bolters are the way to go. The damage output is pretty meh. With combat knives they can at least do some damage in melee.

Well since my inquisitor is basically a ranger with a different head and a boltpistol plus a chainsword I certainly would give my okay for those kind of scouts. But use different colours for them

Suzuteo wrote:
They can deploy anywhere up to 9" from the enemy deployment zone.

Ah okay, so same as those Scouts. So always deploy your Scouts first!

Iago40k wrote: I am not sure if Bolters are the way to go. The damage output is pretty meh. With combat knives they can at least do some damage in melee.

Well since my inquisitor is basically a ranger with a different head and a boltpistol plus a chainsword I certainly would give my okay for those kind of scouts. But use different colours for them

Interesting idea with the knives. BTW why did you include an inquisitor to your list?

 lash92 wrote:

Suzuteo wrote:
They can deploy anywhere up to 9" from the enemy deployment zone.

Ah okay, so same as those Scouts. So always deploy your Scouts first!

Iago40k wrote: I am not sure if Bolters are the way to go. The damage output is pretty meh. With combat knives they can at least do some damage in melee.

Well since my inquisitor is basically a ranger with a different head and a boltpistol plus a chainsword I certainly would give my okay for those kind of scouts. But use different colours for them

Interesting idea with the knives. BTW why did you include an inquisitor to your list?

cheap HQ choice who can smite and ban 1 cast. Also terrify and dominate are awesome powers, plus his leadership bubble is verys useful. all in all a very nice choice.

Inquisitors aren't that cheap in my opinion, not when you can get Primaris Pyskers for 46 points and Company Commanders for 30.

Anyhow, are we sure Knives and Bolt Pistols are the ideal setup?

Suzuteo wrote:
Inquisitors aren't that cheap in my opinion, not when you can get Primaris Pyskers for 46 points and Company Commanders for 30.

Anyhow, are we sure Knives and Bolt Pistols are the ideal setup?

These are also my thoughts, that's why I asked. Also I don't know if I'm missing something, but the Guard powers seem much better then the Inquisiton's?

I don't know if we are, but I can see arguments made for both knives and bolters.

Feels like with every new Codex we slip further down the viability list. A shame, because we have such a great (small) range of models.

2018 is here and Fires hopefully isn't far off, but I lost a lot of hope after the Chapter Approved and its weird pricing for FW units.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Feels like with every new Codex we slip further down the viability list. A shame, because we have such a great (small) range of models.

2018 is here and Fires hopefully isn't far off, but I lost a lot of hope after the Chapter Approved and its weird pricing for FW units.

not really. AdMech misses just some elements that we need to take from other armies, which are scouts and a culexus. you dont need a company commander but 5+/5+ for CP regen is better than just a 6 up for AdMech. You dont need an Inquisitor or Primaris Psyker (of which i think the Inquisitor is way better but thats just me). And you dont need stuff like Basilisks. You can take them, but they are not necessary (imho). But honestly those are 300 something points (so 15 - 20% of our army) with which our army jumps up at least one tier. Since the daemon codex dropped we will see this combination in a lot of imperial armies anyways so we dont have to feel that sad I reckon.

so after a few games with pure guard, i can say manticore outperform Neutronagers easily. similar damage output, but can fire from out of line of sight and much better anti heavy infantry . wiped out a squad of five terminators with one manticore. not something even possible with a neutronager. the baneblade proved surprisingly a good replacement for the kastellans with its 10 heavy bolters. are they as good as 4 or 6 kastelans deluge of shots? no but they dot he job and the baneblade battlecannon and demolisher pull heavy anti tank duty. and the 4 point cannon fodder are extremely useful. RIP admech RIP

gendoikari87 wrote:
so after a few games with pure guard, i can say manticore outperform Neutronagers easily. similar damage output, but can fire from out of line of sight and much better anti heavy infantry . wiped out a squad of five terminators with one manticore. not something even possible with a neutronager. the baneblade proved surprisingly a good replacement for the kastellans with its 10 heavy bolters. are they as good as 4 or 6 kastelans deluge of shots? no but they dot he job and the baneblade battlecannon and demolisher pull heavy anti tank duty. and the 4 point cannon fodder are extremely useful. RIP admech RIP

Well comparing those two is a little bit weird imo. The manticore is an artillery and sacrifices mobility and durability compared to the Crawler, which is more of a Battletank.
I play a lots of Guard myself and when you start to encounter -1 to hit armies guard artillery really starts to fall of quite rapidly.
Regarding the wider choice of targets you are definitely right, the Neutronager has a really small selection of optimal targets.

Also I don't like the Baneblade. Sure it can deal tons of damage, but remember it's just 3+. So it won't get any or just a 6+ save against dedicated anti tank weaponry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What's your take on the Eversor Assassin guys?

Man, if there was one determining factor that impacted my lack of motivation to paint my ad mech, it would be this thread. Kind of sad :( Went from theorycrafting and following this tactics thread to looking at other armies entirely...

My initial plans were not even close to what seems possible, with 10 man vanguard squads from 3 start collecting sets. I don’t play competitively by the damage might already be done LOL

I know everyone is waiting with hope for fires, but realistically I dont think it is going to help us as much as people think.

We are sharing the book with Red Scorpions, who should gobble up 3 -4 entries.

My guess is we get rules back for the Secutarri and Ordinatus. We will also get Thanatar rules, since they feature heavily in the previous preview presentations. We might also get those drones that the plague drones are based on to fill out our flyer slot (though for deathguard they are not even really flyers right?).

I DONT think they are going to give us transports because they would be so necessary for casual players that store owners will complain for pushing customers to forge world. They also can't give us too many units because our total list is what 13 units currently? I don't see them making FW more than 1/3 of our total army options...

 Valentine009 wrote:
I know everyone is waiting with hope for fires, but realistically I dont think it is going to help us as much as people think.

We are sharing the book with Red Scorpions, who should gobble up 3 -4 entries.

My guess is we get rules back for the Secutarri and Ordinatus. We will also get Thanatar rules, since they feature heavily in the previous preview presentations. We might also get those drones that the plague drones are based on to fill out our flyer slot (though for deathguard they are not even really flyers right?).

I DONT think they are going to give us transports because they would be so necessary for casual players that store owners will complain for pushing customers to forge world. They also can't give us too many units because our total list is what 13 units currently? I don't see them making FW more than 1/3 of our total army options...

Triaros images were previewed, if I recall correctly. So unless they purposefully omit them post-8th, we are getting a pretty good sized transport.

I expect, at the minimum:

Archmagos (Draykavac model)
Secutarii
Thanatar
Thallax
Triaros
Ordinatus

Those give us a lot more tools, if they aren't awful. Transport, another non-Cawl HQ, two more Troops (hopefully) and the Thallax and Thanatar can help with list diversity. Ordinatus will be stupid expensive, like most superheavy stuff, so not really viable for normal games (my guess).

Fires, if done well, can be our salvation as an independent faction. Without it, we are a flavoring of Soup.