Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Yeah, the HQ is base 150. The four bikes would be 19w at T6 2+/5++ dropping 48 bolter shots w/in RF range and pumping out 17 HtH attacks hitting on 2+ re-rolling 1s, and failed wounds on the charge at S6 -3 D3, and another 4 attacks at -2 D1 if you pay the points for the MIsericordia. All for around 420pts. I like it a lot.

 Fenris-77 wrote:
Yeah, the HQ is base 150. The four bikes would be 19w at T6 2+/5++ dropping 48 bolter shots w/in RF range and pumping out 17 HtH attacks hitting on 2+ re-rolling 1s, and failed wounds on the charge at S6 -3 D3, and another 4 attacks at -2 D1 if you pay the points for the MIsericordia. All for around 420pts. I like it a lot.

Wow... pretty sure that puts our Dragoons to absolute shame.

I've actually been looking at custodes pretty seriously. A supreme command detachment of three shield captains on dawneagle jetbikes is 480 points, which would replace the fistellans in my ITC list. They are basically better in every way than the kastellans for 4 pts less.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 Fenris-77 wrote:
Yeah, the HQ is base 150. The four bikes would be 19w at T6 2+/5++ dropping 48 bolter shots w/in RF range and pumping out 17 HtH attacks hitting on 2+ re-rolling 1s, and failed wounds on the charge at S6 -3 D3, and another 4 attacks at -2 D1 if you pay the points for the MIsericordia. All for around 420pts. I like it a lot.

Wow... pretty sure that puts our Dragoons to absolute shame.

There's also a stratagem that let's you charge in the opponents charge phase and fight before any of the enemy units HtH. It's 3CP, but it could swing a game in the right spot.

You may as well stop pretending you're playing AdMech at this point Altough I consider the Jetbikes really nice for a fast assault force with Dragoons and Ravenwing.

 Aaranis wrote:
You may as well stop pretending you're playing AdMech at this point Altough I consider the Jetbikes really nice for a fast assault force with Dragoons and Ravenwing.

We basically have. Aside from Cawlstar + Neutronagers, we have little to run that isn't mediocre or worse. Other armies are doing it better, so we just got to go with what works.

Regarding the shield captain on jetbike, for 36 points more than a kastellan with fists and a combustor you get:
1) better movement
2) better shooting
3) better ws and bs
4) an extra wound
5) 2 more attacks
6) rerolls to hit (shooting and cc) without a support character or canticles
7) rerolls to wound when they charge
8) a 2+/4++ all the time (pure detachment is required for the 4++, otherwise its a 5++)
9) the character rule and therefore heroic intervention
10) FNP for mortal wounds in the psychic phase
11) access to excellent stratagems, warlord traits and wargear

The only upside to the kastellans is strength 10 and a flat 3 damage. The kastellans (assuming the fight twice protocols, and there are a host of problems with fighting twice) BARELY outperform the custodes against T7-T9. Otherwise custodes are always better AND way more survivable.

Compared with a dragoon, the dragoon wins only during a turn you pop CDI (it beats out the captain and the kastellan in CC vs. T7). With the captain being so much more survivable, I'd garauntee over the course of a game he'd put out more damage.

Coupled with the fact that to compete with the shield captain you need to use stratagems or switch into a protocol that limits your shooting, the points values on both dragoons and the kastellans just make no sense.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 Fenris-77 wrote:
Yeah, the HQ is base 150. The four bikes would be 19w at T6 2+/5++ dropping 48 bolter shots w/in RF range and pumping out 17 HtH attacks hitting on 2+ re-rolling 1s, and failed wounds on the charge at S6 -3 D3, and another 4 attacks at -2 D1 if you pay the points for the MIsericordia. All for around 420pts. I like it a lot.

Wow... pretty sure that puts our Dragoons to absolute shame.

Aww don’t say that lol. I just bought some /sad face




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Aaranis wrote:
You may as well stop pretending you're playing AdMech at this point Altough I consider the Jetbikes really nice for a fast assault force with Dragoons and Ravenwing.

That actually sounds really cool. If you do that be sure to provide photos. Would like to see em!

 Fenris-77 wrote:
Yeah, the HQ is base 150. The four bikes would be 19w at T6 2+/5++ dropping 48 bolter shots w/in RF range and pumping out 17 HtH attacks hitting on 2+ re-rolling 1s, and failed wounds on the charge at S6 -3 D3, and another 4 attacks at -2 D1 if you pay the points for the MIsericordia. All for around 420pts. I like it a lot.

If I am evaluating for role, I don't find that too impressive. There are things that remove infantry better, and Dragoons hit harder in melee. I mean, what is the strength of those hits anyway? S6? How am I going to bust tanks with these guys? I mean, I guess the AP-3 is nice, but that's a wash against Daemon Primarchs. Meanwhile, 6 Dragoons with CDI put out an average of 33 S8 AP-1 D2 hits for 408 points, all on top of 36W and natural -1 to hit. They don't care much about toughness or invulnerable saves, but Custodes need to worry about both.

Suzuteo wrote:

 Fenris-77 wrote:
Yeah, the HQ is base 150. The four bikes would be 19w at T6 2+/5++ dropping 48 bolter shots w/in RF range and pumping out 17 HtH attacks hitting on 2+ re-rolling 1s, and failed wounds on the charge at S6 -3 D3, and another 4 attacks at -2 D1 if you pay the points for the MIsericordia. All for around 420pts. I like it a lot.

If I am evaluating for role, I don't find that too impressive. There are things that remove infantry better, and Dragoons hit harder in melee. I mean, what is the strength of those hits anyway? S6? How am I going to bust tanks with these guys? I mean, I guess the AP-3 is nice, but that's a wash against Daemon Primarchs. Meanwhile, 6 Dragoons with CDI put out an average of 33 S8 AP-1 D2 hits for 408 points, all on top of 36W and natural -1 to hit. They don't care much about toughness or invulnerable saves, but Custodes need to worry about both.

Dragoons have amazing mathhammer death strikes in melee. But they struggle to deliver that deathstrike due to terrain and being vehicles and not having fly. I have seen them consistently annihilate my opponents front rank of trash units, but then get wasted by something that can bypass their -1 modifier. Celestine and BikerCaptains can fly and can't be shot until your screen is dead. And they move faster. And then ITC made it so every dragoon bomb gives up 4 secondary points. Point for point, dragoons with the +2 to hit strategem are the hardest hitting melee unit in the game. But savvy opponents will make sure that that deathpunch lands on some cultists or some nurglings or some guardsmen, or none at all if they bring dark reapers since dark reapers ignore any modifiers they have.

Another big thing, dragoons can't charge through walls. Celestine and biker captains can use LOS terrain to deny overwatches pretty easily. Dragoons take that overwatch every damned time.

EDIT: think about why every top imperium list at LVO had a blood angels supreme command with a fat stack of jet pack guys (or 2 HQ, 2 Elite, and 3 scouts). Then think why we saw no dragoons in the top 50%. The reason why is that delivery options are what defines the viability of a melee unit. Blood angels can 3d6 charge 1 unit a turn for 2CP out of deep strike. That is amazing. Celestine can move 24" in a turn, that is amazing. Dragoons move 10" and are hardblocked by terrain. They might infiltrate, but not against competitive lists because rangers, scouts, nurglings, and stealth suits will deny your infiltration move. They might deepstrike, but then you are hoping for that 9" and are necessarily ramming into a screen unit.

Wulfey wrote:

Dragoons have amazing mathhammer death strikes in melee. But they struggle to deliver that deathstrike due to terrain and being vehicles and not having fly. I have seen them consistently annihilate my opponents front rank of trash units, but then get wasted by something that can bypass their -1 modifier. Celestine and BikerCaptains can fly and can't be shot until your screen is dead. And they move faster. And then ITC made it so every dragoon bomb gives up 4 secondary points. Point for point, dragoons with the +2 to hit strategem are the hardest hitting melee unit in the game. But savvy opponents will make sure that that deathpunch lands on some cultists or some nurglings or some guardsmen, or none at all if they bring dark reapers since dark reapers ignore any modifiers they have.

Another big thing, dragoons can't charge through walls. Celestine and biker captains can use LOS terrain to deny overwatches pretty easily. Dragoons take that overwatch every damned time.

EDIT: think about why every top imperium list at LVO had a blood angels supreme command with a fat stack of jet pack guys (or 2 HQ, 2 Elite, and 3 scouts). Then think why we saw no dragoons in the top 50%. The reason why is that delivery options are what defines the viability of a melee unit. Blood angels can 3d6 charge 1 unit a turn for 2CP out of deep strike. That is amazing. Celestine can move 24" in a turn, that is amazing. Dragoons move 10" and are hardblocked by terrain. They might infiltrate, but not against competitive lists because rangers, scouts, nurglings, and stealth suits will deny your infiltration move. They might deepstrike, but then you are hoping for that 9" and are necessarily ramming into a screen unit.

It's true that piling in around terrain is a nightmare for a unit of 6; you have to get them into CC two ranks deep. It's also true that flying is a huge deal. And that 3D6 charge is insane in any army, flying or not. I think Dragoons are becoming more defensive now than anything given how amazing some charge options have become.

Why would they Gang Busters my Dragoons when my Kastelans are more important to kill and worth more points? Same for the Dark Reapers. I sort of WANT them to shoot my Dragoons over my Kastelans.

The problem is the reapers out range your kastellans and can move way more effectively, ie. with fire and fade stratagems, ynnari shenanigans, transports for alphastrike protection, etc.

All of my games my opponent had gangbusters on my dragoons. They can ignore the kastellans, using terrain to minimize their impact. The dragoons you can't ignore. They will kill stuff, so why not put gangbusters on them? They end up being really easy to kill over the course of the game, since they are gonna engage you anyways.

I actually could see a list where quadrupling down on dragoons would work.

Supreme command
Guilliman (for the cp's)
2 Techpriest Enginseers
Greyfax

Brigade
(some guard for more CP's and some indirect fire)

Outrider
Techpriest
4 Units of 3 dragoons

The above wouldn't give up gangbusters as bad, would have lots of cp's to infiltrate the dragoons and use the CDI stratagem. The problem is the cost of building this list and the fact that other lists can simply do it better.

Suzuteo wrote:

 Fenris-77 wrote:
Yeah, the HQ is base 150. The four bikes would be 19w at T6 2+/5++ dropping 48 bolter shots w/in RF range and pumping out 17 HtH attacks hitting on 2+ re-rolling 1s, and failed wounds on the charge at S6 -3 D3, and another 4 attacks at -2 D1 if you pay the points for the MIsericordia. All for around 420pts. I like it a lot.

If I am evaluating for role, I don't find that too impressive. There are things that remove infantry better, and Dragoons hit harder in melee. I mean, what is the strength of those hits anyway? S6? How am I going to bust tanks with these guys? I mean, I guess the AP-3 is nice, but that's a wash against Daemon Primarchs. Meanwhile, 6 Dragoons with CDI put out an average of 33 S8 AP-1 D2 hits for 408 points, all on top of 36W and natural -1 to hit. They don't care much about toughness or invulnerable saves, but Custodes need to worry about both.

I don't really get why you think they'd struggle to ace tanks. On average they come very close to dropping two Leman Russes on the charge on average. That doesn't really spell struggling to me. I hear what you/re saying about the Dragoons not caring about armor and T, but with the reroll to wound it's only really the ++ that matters for Custodes. Weight of attacks will always be better at punching though high ++ saves, obviously, but that's an argument that applies to any comparison where you have less attack with high AP compared to more attacks with lower AP. The Dragoons kick tail in HtH, there's doubt about that, but so so the Bikes, and the two units proved different other advantages and disadvantages. Personally, I might be tempted to take both.

linds14sr20det wrote:
All of my games my opponent had gangbusters on my dragoons. They can ignore the kastellans, using terrain to minimize their impact. The dragoons you can't ignore. They will kill stuff, so why not put gangbusters on them? They end up being really easy to kill over the course of the game, since they are gonna engage you anyways.

Really? Not even the Fistelans? That is weird. That being said, knowing when to turn on the Protector Protocol is important. You don't have to do it right away.

Stuff like Gang Busters is really annoying in general. Makes it even more punishing to field multi-wound models. (It's not as if infantry are somehow under-powered right now.) That being said, we are in trouble if we're going to build our lists like that, since everything but Crawlers can be Gang Busted.

 Fenris-77 wrote:

I don't really get why you think they'd struggle to ace tanks. On average they come very close to dropping two Leman Russes on the charge on average. That doesn't really spell struggling to me. I hear what you/re saying about the Dragoons not caring about armor and T, but with the reroll to wound it's only really the ++ that matters for Custodes. Weight of attacks will always be better at punching though high ++ saves, obviously, but that's an argument that applies to any comparison where you have less attack with high AP compared to more attacks with lower AP. The Dragoons kick tail in HtH, there's doubt about that, but so so the Bikes, and the two units proved different other advantages and disadvantages. Personally, I might be tempted to take both.

Lemons, sure. They have no invulnerable save.

Eh, skeptical. I think even taking BA Captain + Sanguinary Guard might be better.

Why do I normally see fistelans being run with the flamer despite it most likely being on conquerer protocol and the phosphor gun being cheaper?

 kastelen wrote:
Why do I normally see fistelans being run with the flamer despite it most likely being on conquerer protocol and the phosphor gun being cheaper?

WYSIWYG, I suppose. It should be the Phosphor IMO.

Suzuteo wrote:

 kastelen wrote:
Why do I normally see fistelans being run with the flamer despite it most likely being on conquerer protocol and the phosphor gun being cheaper?

WYSIWYG, I suppose. It should be the Phosphor IMO.

My thought was bs4+ means an average of 1.5 hits on the phosphor. Since they are gonna be up close and personal the average 3.5 hits per combustor would be better. Also overwatch with them can be brutal.

All in all who cares what you arm them with. They are an absolute dumpster fire of a unit.

To sum up: How did LVO affect our competitive list?
Is it still Cawlstar + Guardsman + Basilisks + Celestine or should we be looking for something else?

 lash92 wrote:
To sum up: How did LVO affect our competitive list?
Is it still Cawlstar + Guardsman + Basilisks + Celestine or should we be looking for something else?

I think we're still waiting to see how hard they will nerf Eldar and Blood Angels before deciding. But I think a lot of the problems we face are structural. =\

I suppose because our codex was just rushed out near the beginning, we could be in for some of the first new stuff after all the codexes are out lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, Armiger sounds a lot like Onager rightt? Right!?

I don't think blood angels are getting nerfed. But at the top levels, blood angels are all over imperium lists. More than celestine. That 3d6 dick punch is really something.

True. And to be fair, Kastelans do drop MEQs really fast, so if their charge fails to deal significant damage, they die quite horribly..

So what Blood Angels do you suggest to include? (Except the 3 Scout squads)

 lash92 wrote:
So what Blood Angels do you suggest to include? (Except the 3 Scout squads)

The basic battallion is Captain with Jumppack, Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield, cheap HQ (Sanguinary priest of Tech Priest) and 3x 5 scouts.
Give the captain the relic Jumppack to negate overwatch and re-roll charge. Use the stratagem to charge 3d6 if you deployed this turn.

I really don't see how using a stratagem to charge a single Captain is efficient. Not when we have Wrath of Mars and CDI.

Suzuteo wrote:
I really don't see how using a stratagem to charge a single Captain is efficient. Not when we have Wrath of Mars and CDI.

I also can´t see it. He has 4+1 attacks on the charge hitting on 3´s rerolling 1s. Sure he will wound everything on 2+, but he has got just so few attacks to get through invulns...
Also you have to give up your Guard Warlord and I love my CP regain

Why does it mean giving up your guard Warlord? You can buy the relic with a CP.

And ofc you don't charge him in alone. He is there to be backed up by the rest of your army.
If your not interested in combat you have no reason to use Blood Angels and are probably better off with Ravenguard if you want scouts.

You should keep in mind that we are a low-CP army because the detachments are structured in such a way as to reward troops. And we don't emphasize troops

Suzuteo wrote:
You should keep in mind that we are a low-CP army because the detachments are structured in such a way as to reward troops. And we don't emphasize troops

This is why my facebook 40k chat friends pushed me away from running a smash captain over celestine. Celestine needs 1CP to get back up every few games. Smash captain can eat 6CP a game if you want to give them.

Ordana wrote:
Why does it mean giving up your guard Warlord? You can buy the relic with a CP.

And ofc you don't charge him in alone. He is there to be backed up by the rest of your army.
If your not interested in combat you have no reason to use Blood Angels and are probably better off with Ravenguard if you want scouts.

You can't buy relics for armies that aren't a part of your warlord, at least thats what it says in my IG and Admech codexes. So if you take your IG warlord the blood angels and admechs shouldn't be able to take any relics. Do blood angels get a thing that ignore this rule? If so that's a glass oversight.