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 rvd1ofakind wrote:
I'm actually thinking of ditching Neutrons completelly. Most good tough things have an invul save. Against the biggest threats: waveserpents and flyrants, the Lascannon Balistarii actually does more damage :/

I know where you are coming from, I´m also wondering if I should abandon the Neutron Onager. Sure it´s great if you get to shoot at Leman Russes or things like that but thats not really what I am facing very much. Sure Balistarii does more dmg but it is also a lot more fragile compared to a Crawler. T6 vs T7 and 4+/6++ vs 3+/5++ (with rerolling 1s most likely)


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PiñaColada wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
At 200 it has OK durability. If it costs much more - it'll suck

Durability sure, but considering you're quite likely advancing with it round one and firing a d3 weapon you're gonna end up with one hit in meltarange so there's a real risk for mediocre to no damage at all. I really hope they're around 175 points cause otherwise wehat's the argument for this rather than an onager and a dragoon?

I dont know if I would even take it a 175. Im really not impressed...

I suspect that a T7 unit with little or no ability to clear tarpits... And that can't shoot after falling back from the tarpits... is going to be quite poor.

How will this make it past screens to reach the armour it wants to fight?

The 30" melta is ok, so you can shoot over the screens then kite people around a bit I guess.

Maybe dakkastelans become your screen clearer on T1 to make a gap for the armigers to punch through?

If they are more than 150-170 pts I worry for their usability.

 lash92 wrote:

I dont know if I would even take it a 175. Im really not impressed...

So at what point cost would they interest you? 150? 130?
At 150 or less I'll easily use both but I also really like the models and moving away from a static gunline is tempting, especially if I don't have to buy more dragoons.

If they were between 130 to 150 I would definitely take 2

Would then take

Super heavy detachment

Knight crusader
Armiger
Armiger

Stygies or Lucius Battalion
Enginseer (warlord 6+)
Cawl
3 squads 5x Rangers
5 Daka bots
4 dragoons

I’m not sure how that would likely play but would be a fun army for me

PiñaColada wrote:

 lash92 wrote:

I dont know if I would even take it a 175. Im really not impressed...

So at what point cost would they interest you? 150? 130?
At 150 or less I'll easily use both but I also really like the models and moving away from a static gunline is tempting, especially if I don't have to buy more dragoons.

I dont really have an answer for you. I just thing the model isn´t really adding something to our army..

250 is about what they SHOULD. Cost

gendoikari87 wrote:
250 is about what they SHOULD. Cost

Party pooper

gendoikari87 wrote:
250 is about what they SHOULD. Cost

Lol I literally have a durability chart. At 250 they are bellow average against every weapon in the game except lasguns lol

 lash92 wrote:

PiñaColada wrote:

 lash92 wrote:

I dont know if I would even take it a 175. Im really not impressed...

So at what point cost would they interest you? 150? 130?
At 150 or less I'll easily use both but I also really like the models and moving away from a static gunline is tempting, especially if I don't have to buy more dragoons.

I dont really have an answer for you. I just thing the model isn´t really adding something to our army..

Agreed. We already have good anti-tank shooting and fast walkers. I'm hoping GW has anti-horde variants for us to use.

These things are terrible. They are glass cannons. A wave serpent is ~160 points, -1 to be hit, -1 to all damage instances, 6+++ FNP, and they usually have some kind of psychic buff for more defense. And they are 13 wounds I think. Armigers are joke. Complete trash. They are going to cost 220 points for a dreadnaught that moves faster and doesn't have chapter tactics. And the D3 melta is really the last straw for me. D3? Why not just 2? Awful.

A neutron onager is 140 points. The Armiger is faster and has melee. THat means it starts at 220 points. But its stats make it flimsy for its points.

I would replace all my dunecrawlers with these at 170 or thereabouts and certainly consider taking more autocannon ironstriders to go with them....shame the ironstriders cant move and fire with no penalty...but at least with can doctrina them.

Incidentally ion shield means it has no invuln in combat though right? what is the point in that. Same story as robots.

Wulfey wrote:
These things are terrible. They are glass cannons. A wave serpent is ~160 points, -1 to be hit, -1 to all damage instances, 6+++ FNP, and they usually have some kind of psychic buff for more defense. And they are 13 wounds I think. Armigers are joke. Complete trash. They are going to cost 220 points for a dreadnaught that moves faster and doesn't have chapter tactics. And the D3 melta is really the last straw for me. D3? Why not just 2? Awful.

A neutron onager is 140 points. The Armiger is faster and has melee. THat means it starts at 220 points. But its stats make it flimsy for its points.

Came here to say this, not surprised Wulfey said it first.

GW prices big, durable stuff too high. This won't be an exception.

Stats and math say they should be around 235, if the box is even close to a balanced force they can’t be more than 135-150 each


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Even cutting the score for meele ability in half it should be 219

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Wulfey wrote:
These things are terrible. They are glass cannons. A wave serpent is ~160 points, -1 to be hit, -1 to all damage instances, 6+++ FNP, and they usually have some kind of psychic buff for more defense. And they are 13 wounds I think. Armigers are joke. Complete trash. They are going to cost 220 points for a dreadnaught that moves faster and doesn't have chapter tactics. And the D3 melta is really the last straw for me. D3? Why not just 2? Awful.

A neutron onager is 140 points. The Armiger is faster and has melee. THat means it starts at 220 points. But its stats make it flimsy for its points.

Came here to say this, not surprised Wulfey said it first.

GW prices big, durable stuff too high. This won't be an exception.

They need to be 180 points to compete with my 160 custodes bike captains. Anything more and I want the biker captain.

 lash92 wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
I'm actually thinking of ditching Neutrons completelly. Most good tough things have an invul save. Against the biggest threats: waveserpents and flyrants, the Lascannon Balistarii actually does more damage :/

I know where you are coming from, I´m also wondering if I should abandon the Neutron Onager. Sure it´s great if you get to shoot at Leman Russes or things like that but thats not really what I am facing very much. Sure Balistarii does more dmg but it is also a lot more fragile compared to a Crawler. T6 vs T7 and 4+/6++ vs 3+/5++ (with rerolling 1s most likely)

Neutron has been dead since the Eldar codex landed. Custodes and Blood Angels reinforced the need for Icarus. And with the Tau codex coming, Icarus might almost be mandatory. The strongest units all fly!

Wulfey wrote:

They need to be 180 points to compete with my 160 custodes bike captains. Anything more and I want the biker captain.

Those captains are amazing for their points imo (and also really cool models) so even at 180 I don't think they're competing but maybe that's because of all the eldar&fly I'm facing. However since I play mono-faction (well other than potentially knight I guess, it get blurry with these guys) I'd be quite happy with a 180point armiger.

Concerning Armigers: Looking at this stateline, I agree with rvd1ofakind. They need to be in the 140-180 cost range. They are just Crawlers that have traded away 33" of range for an oversized chainsword and more wounds. Super disappointed they don't have an autocannon option.

That being said, the more interesting question is this: Are 3 Armigers better than an Imperial Knight?

Suzuteo wrote:

 lash92 wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
I'm actually thinking of ditching Neutrons completelly. Most good tough things have an invul save. Against the biggest threats: waveserpents and flyrants, the Lascannon Balistarii actually does more damage :/

I know where you are coming from, I´m also wondering if I should abandon the Neutron Onager. Sure it´s great if you get to shoot at Leman Russes or things like that but thats not really what I am facing very much. Sure Balistarii does more dmg but it is also a lot more fragile compared to a Crawler. T6 vs T7 and 4+/6++ vs 3+/5++ (with rerolling 1s most likely)

Neutron has been dead since the Eldar codex landed. Custodes and Blood Angels reinforced the need for Icarus. And with the Tau codex coming, Icarus might almost be mandatory. The strongest units all fly!

Neutronager does a different job, unless you pop strat to let it shoot a non-invuln flyers. It isn't a choice between one or the other, imo - just take both. They are cheap enough to do so.


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Suzuteo wrote:
Concerning Armigers: Looking at this stateline, I agree with rvd1ofakind. They need to be in the 140-180 cost range. Otherwise, they are just Crawlers that have traded away 33" of range for an oversized chainsword. Super disappointed they don't have an autocannon option.

That being said, the more interesting question is this: Are 3 Armigers better than an Imperial Knight?

As for weapon loadout - keep in mind this is a boxed set. When they inevitably go to a solo kit, I imagine we will see more options... I hope. And that is likely what I will wait for, provided the point cost isn't awful.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Suzuteo wrote:

Neutron has been dead since the Eldar codex landed. Custodes and Blood Angels reinforced the need for Icarus. And with the Tau codex coming, Icarus might almost be mandatory. The strongest units all fly!

Neutronager does a different job, unless you pop strat to let it shoot a non-invuln flyers. It isn't a choice between one or the other, imo - just take both. They are cheap enough to do so.

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Suzuteo wrote:
Concerning Armigers: Looking at this stateline, I agree with rvd1ofakind. They need to be in the 140-180 cost range. Otherwise, they are just Crawlers that have traded away 33" of range for an oversized chainsword. Super disappointed they don't have an autocannon option.

That being said, the more interesting question is this: Are 3 Armigers better than an Imperial Knight?

As for weapon loadout - keep in mind this is a boxed set. When they inevitably go to a solo kit, I imagine we will see more options... I hope. And that is likely what I will wait for, provided the point cost isn't awful.

If I had three tank slots, I would bring three Icarus. There is no situation where I would prefer a Neutron Crawler. Anti-tank should fall to Basilisks, Dragoons, and Kastelan Robots.

True. I might pass on Forgebane for only that reason.

Suzuteo wrote:

If I had three tank slots, I would bring three Icarus. There is no situation where I would prefer a Neutron Crawler. Anti-tank should fall to Basilisks, Dragoons, and Kastelan Robots.

True. I might pass on Forgebane for only that reason.

Not everyone is running Basilisks. For those folks (myself included), I lean on the Neutronager.

Also, Kastelans sometimes are tied up with priority targets. Dragoons also can't engage across the table or tackle flyers.

In those instances, I am usually happy for my Neutronager. When it shines, it shines bright as heck!

You guys want this thing to be cheaper than leman Russ? Which is 4x slower and has no cc ability? And is already considered op?

Greedy much?


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Sorry 3x slower

gendoikari87 wrote:
You guys want this thing to be cheaper than leman Russ? Which is 4x slower and has no cc ability? And is already considered op?

Greedy much?


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Sorry 3x slower

It isn't like it has a slew of turret options that can fire twice when it moves.

It is a robot with a mediocre arsenal and a CC weapon.

The Russ likely is the bigger culprit, being so cheap. Then again, I think most of the 8th ed point values are pretty uneven across armies.

It’s better than a dreadnoght ....

gendoikari87 wrote:
You guys want this thing to be cheaper than leman Russ? Which is 4x slower and has no cc ability? And is already considered op?

Greedy much?


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Sorry 3x slower

The Leman Russ is less than 2x slower (10" versus 14"). It's only like 29% slower (if my bad math is correct).

gendoikari87 wrote:
It’s better than a dreadnoght ....

A space marine contemptor dreadnought is 167 points with the multimelta. Now the thermal lance is better than the multimelta, the Armiger is faster and has more wounds. The contemptor has a better WS/BS and everything else is the same as far as we know so far. (Barring the fact that dreadnoughts get chapter tactics) So I don't think it should be less than 167 obviously but anything more than 200 feels equally egregious.

So, a Contemptor with Melta and CCW is 167 as Pina pointed out.

The Contemptor has +1 S, Chapter tactics
The Armigers has +5 M, +2 W, +6" Melta range, D3 shots

So, based on that i would estimate the cost to be around 170-180 - simply because of the additional movement and the better melta weapon.

As soon as we start pushing past this you have to start questioning the point of taking them over Dreadnoughts. Sure, it's cool getting up to 3 in 1 slot, but, why wouldn't you just run them as 3 separate units and claim +3CP?!? (However, if they stay as a unit all game, rather than just for deployment, then it'll take some serious firepower to stop the unit)

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Suzuteo wrote:

If I had three tank slots, I would bring three Icarus. There is no situation where I would prefer a Neutron Crawler. Anti-tank should fall to Basilisks, Dragoons, and Kastelan Robots.

Not everyone is running Basilisks. For those folks (myself included), I lean on the Neutronager.

Also, Kastelans sometimes are tied up with priority targets. Dragoons also can't engage across the table or tackle flyers.

In those instances, I am usually happy for my Neutronager. When it shines, it shines bright as heck!

True. I suppose you would need a Neutron Crawler if you don't run Basilisks. But I have found them the indispensable complement to Kastelan Robots.

Neutron Crawlers can't handle flyers as well as Icarus Crawlers. Unless it's a flying brick with no invulnerable save, but those are becoming rare. >_>

I think there's always something Icarus can shoot at now. Assault Marines, Elysians, Battlesuits, Hive Tyrants, Shining Spears, Wave Serpents, Magnus, Mortarion, Celestine... the list goes on.

Suzuteo wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Suzuteo wrote:

If I had three tank slots, I would bring three Icarus. There is no situation where I would prefer a Neutron Crawler. Anti-tank should fall to Basilisks, Dragoons, and Kastelan Robots.

Not everyone is running Basilisks. For those folks (myself included), I lean on the Neutronager.

Also, Kastelans sometimes are tied up with priority targets. Dragoons also can't engage across the table or tackle flyers.

In those instances, I am usually happy for my Neutronager. When it shines, it shines bright as heck!

True. I suppose you would need a Neutron Crawler if you don't run Basilisks. But I have found them the indispensable complement to Kastelan Robots.

Neutron Crawlers can't handle flyers as well as Icarus Crawlers. Unless it's a flying brick with no invulnerable save, but those are becoming rare. >_>

I think there's always something Icarus can shoot at now. Assault Marines, Elysians, Battlesuits, Hive Tyrants, Shining Spears, Wave Serpents, Magnus, Mortarion, Celestine... the list goes on.

There is almost always something a Neutronager can shoot at too. Just about any vehicle or MC, really. Invulns make it less great, but it is still a heavy hitter. As much as I would like Bassies, I am hellbent on staying in-faction for the foreseeable future (mostly due to hobby burnout).


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Kdash wrote:
So, a Contemptor with Melta and CCW is 167 as Pina pointed out.

The Contemptor has +1 S, Chapter tactics
The Armigers has +5 M, +2 W, +6" Melta range, D3 shots

So, based on that i would estimate the cost to be around 170-180 - simply because of the additional movement and the better melta weapon.

As soon as we start pushing past this you have to start questioning the point of taking them over Dreadnoughts. Sure, it's cool getting up to 3 in 1 slot, but, why wouldn't you just run them as 3 separate units and claim +3CP?!? (However, if they stay as a unit all game, rather than just for deployment, then it'll take some serious firepower to stop the unit)

Contemptor has a 5++ invuln at all times. Armiger has an Ion Shield, which is only against shooting attacks. That is a big deal.

Suzuteo wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Suzuteo wrote:

If I had three tank slots, I would bring three Icarus. There is no situation where I would prefer a Neutron Crawler. Anti-tank should fall to Basilisks, Dragoons, and Kastelan Robots.

Not everyone is running Basilisks. For those folks (myself included), I lean on the Neutronager.

Also, Kastelans sometimes are tied up with priority targets. Dragoons also can't engage across the table or tackle flyers.

In those instances, I am usually happy for my Neutronager. When it shines, it shines bright as heck!

True. I suppose you would need a Neutron Crawler if you don't run Basilisks. But I have found them the indispensable complement to Kastelan Robots.

Neutron Crawlers can't handle flyers as well as Icarus Crawlers. Unless it's a flying brick with no invulnerable save, but those are becoming rare. >_>

I think there's always something Icarus can shoot at now. Assault Marines, Elysians, Battlesuits, Hive Tyrants, Shining Spears, Wave Serpents, Magnus, Mortarion, Celestine... the list goes on.

It really comes down to your local meta. I see very, very few fliers in my local meta, so much so that I usually bring 3 neutron onagers. That being said, we have a lot of Leeman Ruses, Knights, and Baneblades in our meta, so it's hard to justify bringing the icarus. Now, if I start seeing more fliers in our meta, yes, absolutely.

Now THIS is interesting... 1CP for re-rolls of 1 to hit/1 to shoot, in built cover-save/+1 str (does that mean on the X2 you're doubling out Str 7 models??).