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 MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:


Now THIS is interesting... 1CP for re-rolls of 1 to hit/1 to shoot, in built cover-save/+1 str (does that mean on the X2 you're doubling out Str 7 models??).

This has actually been in our codex since it dropped. Great for adding knights to lists. Knights can even benefit from the "use the top of the damage chart" stratagem, I think.

That isn't a new strategem. We got that in our 'Dex.

Ninja'd.

I mean, the Neutronager does about equal to a Fire Raptor as the Icarus loadout. The Icarus really only helps against shooting Jet Pack stuff with invulnerable saves (so almost universally characters).

I run AdMech with the Custodes. My Hurricane Bolters handle that kind of stuff fine. I use the Neutronagers to, well, neutralize big vehicles and monsters ASAP (plus one Caladius Grav-Tank, here's hoping it gets Power of the Machine Spirit!).

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
That isn't a new strategem. We got that in our 'Dex.

Ninja'd.

How in Gods name did I miss that :(

 MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:

Now THIS is interesting...

same stratagem in the AdMech codex.

e:f,b

 MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
That isn't a new strategem. We got that in our 'Dex.

Ninja'd.

How in Gods name did I miss that :(

Because it is pretty bad?

 Vitali Advenil wrote:

It really comes down to your local meta. I see very, very few fliers in my local meta, so much so that I usually bring 3 neutron onagers. That being said, we have a lot of Leeman Ruses, Knights, and Baneblades in our meta, so it's hard to justify bringing the icarus. Now, if I start seeing more fliers in our meta, yes, absolutely.

Sure, but your local meta is your local meta. I can't talk about your local meta with you. We can, however, see what decks are placing Top 8 in tournaments and preparing ourselves for the eventuality of facing these more powerful armies.

Local meta right!

Back to general tactics . Armiger's as always disappointed.

+
1) easier detachment with a knight or even 3 of them.
2) +3 cp we need.
3) get a second choise for antitank with some cc ability
4) good speed and stat line
5) can move shoot with no penalty?
6) some abilities we don't yet know like run charge or smt.

-
1) prolly the cost
2) limited weapons
3) suppose to be able to go cc but again in shield so no fnp or invu in cc making onager again more synergise
4) if it can't fall back and shoot /charge and has no cc invu is like you wasting points for enemy to kill. One more time it's clearly stated this is an assault units and has neither weapon options cc options invu does not have the shroud options or dogma -1 to hit like Dragoons .
5) a dragoon 68 points and an Onagers cost 140 average so 208 pooints with better synergy again we LL question why the h bring a knight over them?
6) spending command points to make this a viable unit while canticels buffs synergy with ad mech again needs to be cp based.

So disappointing what role this unit provides with no fnp or cc invu ?? 14 move when I can inflit a dragoon unit? When we got nice shooters . Do what remove all synergy pay knights cost just to have knights in ad mech for what? We removed knights from list immediately . And their real strength with current meta fall back shoot charge vs horde armies where you really believed we could actually become powerful with icarus Onagers and knights able to deal with almost everything again a unit with a charge role and bad design. Is this armiger cc or shoot oriented . Or just once again send to enemies with absolutely no reason 200+ pooints to kill. Mercy gw mercy once more same crap. Send 2 or 3 expensive units to die tar pited midish slained cc from small cheap chars . Can't fight vs current hordish armies can't run charge can't fall back shoot something wtf.
Seriously wtf wth ad mech ??? Give Onagers ability to from units and use less cp to buff and keep your armiger's ffs!!!

Only way I could possibly see these armigers working is in some kind of hokey brigade scheme where you had a whole lot of CP to spare and could afford to throw 2CP a turn into a 3 Armiger unit. Taking them solo for more CP is a trap. You really want them in 1 UNIT so that way the admech strategems apply to all 3 as a UNIT. It could maybe survive to the second turn thanks to shroudspalm and 4++ if you ran it along side a guard brigade and a mini admech detachment for the strategems. EDIT: drop the admech. Just use the chapter approved strategems on a pack of 3 of them next to your guard brigade. They would be run like Slamguinius does next to guard, except do a bad job.

I still can't get over the 12 wounds thing. 1 more than Onager? Really? And the gun isn't even 2 melta gun shots. For such a great model they really killed its offensive output. Even further, in a meta where no one brings T7 solo models without invulnerable saves ... what is this thing supposed to be good against?

Am I supposed to drop Celestine and slot this thing in her place? It sure as hell can't do her job. Is this thing supposed to be like a really inefficient lump of 3 sydonian dragoons? Why? Is it supposed to be a melee Onager for 80 more points? But without benefiting from Cawl's aura? ARG! GW even pre-nerfed repairing it using all the admech repair strategems.

More ranting. Let's go through some recent opponents. The Armiger is horrendous against Chaos Space Marines. Just the basic space marine list is riddled with 1 wound models that attack in swarms (berzerkers) or have lots of meltas and jump packs (talon dudes). Both of those are hard counters to the Armiger. Eldar. Everything about Eldar pees on the Armiger. From the -1 to be hit, to the move after shooting strategems, to the all the -2, 3 damage attacks, and plentiful invul saves all over the place. And every targetted Eldar psychic power is made for debuffing expensive units. Guard. Guardsmen laugh at this thing. A squad of 10 can plausibly hold this up for 2-4 turns if you wiff a hit roll and wiff a wound a roll. Guard tanks also pee on this thing since it has no negative modifiers, no way to deepstrike, and is only marginally tougher than a leman russ against -2 and -3 firepower. Tyranids. Yeah lol guant swarms and genestealers. This is stupid. EDIT: I forgot tau. Tau have access to all kinds of deepstrike and soon to be 40" movement range melta. And their good models either are single models with invulnerable saves or come in as swarms of drones/bodies.

Where are you guys getting the points total for these things? What do they clock in at?

Ideasweasel wrote:
Where are you guys getting the points total for these things? What do they clock in at?

Well they don't know, these are just embittered predictions made from earlier models with similar roles. Logically (in my opinion) this thing clocks in at 180- maybe a few more points if that's indeed a melta carapace weapon.

I just wish that stupid cannon wasn't d3 shots. Make it assault 2, heck make it assault 1 all I care, I would just like it to have some sort of predictability. Worst part is I'm almost certain there's going to be an upgraded box down the pipeline with a plasma weapon of some kind that's just going to leave this melta loadout in the dust. Main reason I'm getting some is because they'll be cheap and I need more skitarii anyways. I figure worst case scenario I have a kind of crap unit that's fun to paint for casual and demo games for cheap. If the rumored box price is true they'll be stupid cheap cashwise.

If they do end up getting a fleshed out set of options it could be interesting to see what it does if it could take dual melee/shooty arms and perhaps got an option for a battle cannon or punisher style Gatling cannon.

I'd love to see an Armiger holding an avenger gatling cannon in both hands, it would look amazing. Also a purely close combat oriented one with two of those centurion siege drills would look terrifying. BTW, I believe that price is basically confirmed now ($160 US/£95), a couple of sites have listed them at this point afaik.

PiñaColada wrote:

Ideasweasel wrote:
Where are you guys getting the points total for these things? What do they clock in at?

Well they don't know, these are just embittered predictions made from earlier models with similar roles. Logically (in my opinion) this thing clocks in at 180- maybe a few more points if that's indeed a melta carapace weapon.

Cool thanks. I saw people taking about the cost of an onager + dragoon. Was thinking dafuq? Have I missed something

Ideasweasel wrote:

PiñaColada wrote:

Ideasweasel wrote:
Where are you guys getting the points total for these things? What do they clock in at?

Well they don't know, these are just embittered predictions made from earlier models with similar roles. Logically (in my opinion) this thing clocks in at 180- maybe a few more points if that's indeed a melta carapace weapon.

Cool thanks. I saw people taking about the cost of an onager + dragoon. Was thinking dafuq? Have I missed something

I think that's just because it's a logical cutoff, if it costs more than those two combined then what is the point of this other than rule of cool?

Ah gotcha. Here is hoping they are pointed sensibly

Ideasweasel wrote:
Ah gotcha. Here is hoping they are pointed sensibly

I am betting it won't be. Expect it to be 225pt.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Ideasweasel wrote:
Ah gotcha. Here is hoping they are pointed sensibly

I am betting it won't be. Expect it to be 225pt.

that’s a fair and decent price

gendoikari87 wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Ideasweasel wrote:
Ah gotcha. Here is hoping they are pointed sensibly

I am betting it won't be. Expect it to be 225pt.

that’s a fair and decent price

Aren’t you the guy who defected over to imperial guard?

Hehe bet now you want them to be as highly pointed as possible eh!

gendoikari87 wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Ideasweasel wrote:
Ah gotcha. Here is hoping they are pointed sensibly

I am betting it won't be. Expect it to be 225pt.

that’s a fair and decent price

...lol wut?

This is a glorified Contemptor Dreadnought, which with a MM/CCW is only 165pt. For that, you lose 5" movement and 2 wounds, but have an invuln in shooting and close-combat, only 6" less range on the gun, and what looks to be the same CC profile. Sure it is d3 vs 1 shot on the MM, but that invuln is a big deal.

And that being said, people aren't running Contemptors much, are they? Nope. And those are an Elite slot, not a LoW and they get Chapter Tactics, which are pretty much always better than our Canticles (which we get only via a Strategem anyhow!).

225pt for this thing will be pretty overpriced. 185pt would be far closer to fair, since it has the shooting-only invuln, the 20pt for a bit of extra range and sometimes a few more shots of the MM sounds about right.

And even then, I am not planning on using them. Go figure.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

...lol wut?

This is a glorified Contemptor Dreadnought, which with a MM/CCW is only 165pt. For that, you lose 5" movement and 2 wounds, but have an invuln in shooting and close-combat, only 6" less range on the gun, and what looks to be the same CC profile. Sure it is d3 vs 1 shot on the MM, but that invuln is a big deal.

And that being said, people aren't running Contemptors much, are they? Nope. And those are an Elite slot, not a LoW and they get Chapter Tactics, which are pretty much always better than our Canticles (which we get only via a Strategem anyhow!).

225pt for this thing will be pretty overpriced. 185pt would be far closer to fair, since it has the shooting-only invuln, the 20pt for a bit of extra range and sometimes a few more shots of the MM sounds about right.

And even then, I am not planning on using them. Go figure.

The invuln for both shooting and cc is a big deal but the bigger drawback for me is the (almost guaranteed) lower WS/BS. If it had a 2+ then advancing with the thermal spear wouldn't be such a big deal. It also helps with the damage table and all those pesky -1 to hit you'll run into. It'd mitigate the fact that you can't easily reroll ones with it. But anything sub-200 I'll try both of them out for sure.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gendoikari87 wrote:
that’s a fair and decent price

Out of pure curiosity, how many point do you think a dark reaper should be?

PiñaColada wrote:

Ideasweasel wrote:
Where are you guys getting the points total for these things? What do they clock in at?

Well they don't know, these are just embittered predictions made from earlier models with similar roles. Logically (in my opinion) this thing clocks in at 180- maybe a few more points if that's indeed a melta carapace weapon.

It is. It also has a Heavy Phospher Blaster as an option.

PiñaColada wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

...lol wut?

This is a glorified Contemptor Dreadnought, which with a MM/CCW is only 165pt. For that, you lose 5" movement and 2 wounds, but have an invuln in shooting and close-combat, only 6" less range on the gun, and what looks to be the same CC profile. Sure it is d3 vs 1 shot on the MM, but that invuln is a big deal.

And that being said, people aren't running Contemptors much, are they? Nope. And those are an Elite slot, not a LoW and they get Chapter Tactics, which are pretty much always better than our Canticles (which we get only via a Strategem anyhow!).

225pt for this thing will be pretty overpriced. 185pt would be far closer to fair, since it has the shooting-only invuln, the 20pt for a bit of extra range and sometimes a few more shots of the MM sounds about right.

And even then, I am not planning on using them. Go figure.

The invuln for both shooting and cc is a big deal but the bigger drawback for me is the (almost guaranteed) lower WS/BS. If it had a 2+ then advancing with the thermal spear wouldn't be such a big deal. It also helps with the damage table and all those pesky -1 to hit you'll run into. It'd mitigate the fact that you can't easily reroll ones with it. But anything sub-200 I'll try both of them out for sure.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gendoikari87 wrote:
that’s a fair and decent price

Out of pure curiosity, how many point do you think a dark reaper should be?

Don't worry, 225 looks even worse when you take a look at the Relic Contemptor at 204 points.

I still maintain a 170-180 point range maybe pushing 185 if you go melta on the carapace. Otherwise, there are just loads of other options that aren't even considered to be competitive themselves that are better.

Kdash wrote:

Don't worry, 225 looks even worse when you take a look at the Relic Contemptor at 204 points.
I still maintain a 170-180 point range maybe pushing 185 if you go melta on the carapace. Otherwise, there are just loads of other options that aren't even considered to be competitive themselves that are better.

I really like the relic contemptor and think it's really good but I avoided that comparison since it's forgeworld and has the relic rule (which is not a big deal but whatever). Even though the chaos version has a worse armour save I'd argue that it's even better than the SM one, and butcher cannons are stupid good in my opinion. It would be sad if the Armiger would end up costing more than the relic contemptor though.

Ideasweasel wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Ideasweasel wrote:
Ah gotcha. Here is hoping they are pointed sensibly

I am betting it won't be. Expect it to be 225pt.

that’s a fair and decent price

Aren’t you the guy who defected over to imperial guard?

Hehe bet now you want them to be as highly pointed as possible eh!

not really I have two forgebane boxes on pre order or will this weekend and a knight waiting for me

Skitarii I’ll beusing as guard and selling the tpd. Backing all this up with some leman russes and scout sentinel

Ah I thought you were the guy who ebay’d his robots etc.

My bad


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gendoikari87 wrote:
well that went better than expected. Onagers and Kastellans sold. officially out of mechanicus.

Oh wait, it was you.

Your out of Admech but can’t stay away from those sweet sweet knights eh.

Ideasweasel wrote:
Ah I thought you were the guy who ebay’d his robots etc.

My bad


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gendoikari87 wrote:
well that went better than expected. Onagers and Kastellans sold. officially out of mechanicus.

Oh wait, it was you.

Your out of Admech but can’t stay away from those sweet sweet knights eh.

I serve the emperor by any name in many ways.

Also I have a thing for mechs. And tanks.

Like I ain’t gonna lie I already picked up zeon decals for the knight and armigers and they’re getting ramba ral colors and the knight gets a red comet paint job

Do you still have dragoons? I love those models. Wish they were cheaper though.

The real comparison would be the Redemptor dreadnaught. I think they both have 12 wounds? The guns are similar, but the Redemptor has more relevant dakka. Both have the same profile in combat. The armiger is faster and has a 5++ to shooting, but the Redemptor has access to real auras, strategems, and chapter tactics. The Redemptor is like 200 points, and is never seen in competitive play because it is bad. Under the GW pointing model, the Armiger should cost a little more than the Redemptor because it has an invul and is faster and is a Lord of War.

Ideasweasel wrote:
Do you still have dragoons? I love those models. Wish they were cheaper though.

never used them. Hate the model. Totally unnecessary unit