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For one more save, an invuln, a better gun (sans orders) and higher special weapon density if you want it, they'd compare decently against 5ppm guardsmen in my eyes at least.

Probably not amazing enough to sweep tournaments but they'd be good enough for casual play

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Right now my biggest gripe is that the 2nd enginseer in a batallion is beyond terrible. Basically you play 1900 vs 2000
Also you can't make 2x enginseer 3x troop battalions without wanting to end yourself due to literally throwing away 100 pts

This is why codex admech ends up being 1100-1300 points of MARS artillery in a spearhead. You have to run things from other books if you want something that can do something outside of the shooting phase. (except dragoons)

I dont think we’ll see any points increases anywhere in an faq. Rules tweaks and clarifications, maybe additional wargear at a push. Otherwise whats the point in having chapter approved AND and faq if they serve the same purpose?

There will be a handful of points changes (dark Reapers) but not many and probably no AdMech

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
For one more save, an invuln, a better gun (sans orders) and higher special weapon density if you want it, they'd compare decently against 5ppm guardsmen in my eyes at least.

Probably not amazing enough to sweep tournaments but they'd be good enough for casual play

Infantry are there to screen and deny deep strike. Body count matters.

And with their better save, invulnerable save and better leadership they're pretty good. Vanguard also have weight of fire and the -1 T aura to keep charges away.

Huh?

I think Guardsmen are still better at 5 points. Because their numbers matter in covering more area, not to mention holding objectives.

Suzuteo wrote:
Huh?

I think Guardsmen are still better at 5 points. Because their numbers matter in covering more area, not to mention holding objectives.

Which is why I said they'd be decent enough for casual play but not sweep tournaments. They're not bad, not amazing, just decent. In a casual meta you could absolutely make them work. Im looking forward to collecting a bunch for cheap from all the forgebane buyers who only want the knights for a fun list, since I already have about a 40/20 split of vanguard/ranger. Problem is with soup all troops are going to suck in other codexes when they have to compete with guardsmen, since everyone just sees them as a tax to get the fun stuff in a codex and nothing else. Guardsmen don't even have to be that good, they're just the cheapest way to get CP and screen. If guardsmen go up to 5, and skitarii stayed at 7/8 it's a much more fair comparison. Skitarii are supposed to be more elite so it makes sense that they're never going to be as efficient of a screen as guardsmen.

They're not bad infantry, especially for something stuck in the troops slot. The problem is 40k is no longer stuck with a single force org. If this was 5th edition style force org, especially with mono codex, both skitarii variants would be pretty decent. They also have a couple of useable special weapons or can be run stock depending on what you need them to do. They're no onager or robot but they'd do the job decent enough, especially something simple like basic screens or anti infantry and objective work. They're better than tac Marines and most other troops at least, although that's a pretty low bar to surpass.

If the FAQ drops some sort of "formations only generate CP for the faction they're predominantly made of" rule, taking some sort of skitarii will be your best bet to get cheap batallions for CP or even taking a brigade. I just think you guys rag on them a little too much, especially if IG infantry squads get brought into line a bit. I'm a guy who predominantly runs pure IG and infantry squads, so I'm well aware of how good infantry squads are. Every time I've tried skitarii, even against really gross stuff like eldar, I really like them. Maybe not always as the core of an army, and they're not exactly as amazing as guardsmen for pure value, but I've never felt they were useless. Somewhere in a solid 6-7-mayyyyyyybe 8 /10 depending on forgeworld trait. Good enough for pickup games and the like but probably not something I'd build around for trying to take top table in ITC. They're one of those "if you want to make them work, you could" types of units.

Played against the new Tau yesterday with a Stygies detachment that included 4 Dragoons and (wait for it) 3 Dunecrawler with Eradication Beam. Along came a couple of scouts and an outrider Custodes with 3 x 3 Jetbikes and the Vexila Magnifica for -1 to hit.
The Dunecrawler are both, frustrating and amazing. They are very cheap and very durable and have the potential to be very dangerous. And thats the fun part. Now, they didnt hit or wound gak during the game because I rolled aweful BUT the opponent cannot let them just walk around and let them into 12" distance to eat 3 - 9 Melta shots. All in all and very dependent on the April update but most likely I kick Cawl and Dakkastelans out of my list in favor of Custodes.

Iago40k wrote:
Played against the new Tau yesterday with a Stygies detachment that included 4 Dragoons and (wait for it) 3 Dunecrawler with Eradication Beam. Along came a couple of scouts and an outrider Custodes with 3 x 3 Jetbikes and the Vexila Magnifica for -1 to hit.
The Dunecrawler are both, frustrating and amazing. They are very cheap and very durable and have the potential to be very dangerous. And thats the fun part. Now, they didnt hit or wound gak during the game because I rolled aweful BUT the opponent cannot let them just walk around and let them into 12" distance to eat 3 - 9 Melta shots. All in all and very dependent on the April update but most likely I kick Cawl and Dakkastelans out of my list in favor of Custodes.

Win or loss?

And more importantly did you enjoy the game?

Ideasweasel wrote:

Iago40k wrote:
Played against the new Tau yesterday with a Stygies detachment that included 4 Dragoons and (wait for it) 3 Dunecrawler with Eradication Beam. Along came a couple of scouts and an outrider Custodes with 3 x 3 Jetbikes and the Vexila Magnifica for -1 to hit.
The Dunecrawler are both, frustrating and amazing. They are very cheap and very durable and have the potential to be very dangerous. And thats the fun part. Now, they didnt hit or wound gak during the game because I rolled aweful BUT the opponent cannot let them just walk around and let them into 12" distance to eat 3 - 9 Melta shots. All in all and very dependent on the April update but most likely I kick Cawl and Dakkastelans out of my list in favor of Custodes.

Win or loss?

And more importantly did you enjoy the game?

We coulndt play it out but despite going second it would have gone my way. His first round of shooting got 1 Dunecrawler down on 1 wound and he killed one unit of scouts. With 3 riptides, coldstar, commander and a freaking lot of firewarriors. His 2nd round of shooting killed 5 Custodes bikes which was more than expected but he had to shove a lot of CP into it so I guess it was alright.

It was great fun playing with the bikes. They are what AdMech needs. Tau seems yet again to be a very gunline heavy army which will have problems. Overwatch on a 5+ with almost the whole army is nice but doesnt not kill enough i think. And they will have problems with game length. You really have to look out how long the Tau player takes since they dramatically loose their punch the longer the game continues.

Iago40k wrote:
Played against the new Tau yesterday with a Stygies detachment that included 4 Dragoons and (wait for it) 3 Dunecrawler with Eradication Beam. Along came a couple of scouts and an outrider Custodes with 3 x 3 Jetbikes and the Vexila Magnifica for -1 to hit.
The Dunecrawler are both, frustrating and amazing. They are very cheap and very durable and have the potential to be very dangerous. And thats the fun part. Now, they didnt hit or wound gak during the game because I rolled aweful BUT the opponent cannot let them just walk around and let them into 12" distance to eat 3 - 9 Melta shots. All in all and very dependent on the April update but most likely I kick Cawl and Dakkastelans out of my list in favor of Custodes.

Haha i feel you on the dunecrawler frustration. Doesn't matter what weapon you pick, it still has the potential to be amazing or terrible, which is part of the fun of admech; When they work you just have to laugh and grin at the faces of your opponents as their army just vanishes. When they don't, they're just a distraction.

Theres so many weapon options they COULD have: Dual versions of any of the destroyer weapons, some sort of Volkite-based weaponary. It feels like eradication weapons should have double the number of shots; But I guess thematically that doesn't make sense. The Dunecrawler is a somewhat wasted platform imo, compared to other army's main tank base they have very few weapon options.

Iago40k wrote:
Played against the new Tau yesterday with a Stygies detachment that included 4 Dragoons and (wait for it) 3 Dunecrawler with Eradication Beam. Along came a couple of scouts and an outrider Custodes with 3 x 3 Jetbikes and the Vexila Magnifica for -1 to hit.
The Dunecrawler are both, frustrating and amazing. They are very cheap and very durable and have the potential to be very dangerous. And thats the fun part. Now, they didnt hit or wound gak during the game because I rolled aweful BUT the opponent cannot let them just walk around and let them into 12" distance to eat 3 - 9 Melta shots. All in all and very dependent on the April update but most likely I kick Cawl and Dakkastelans out of my list in favor of Custodes.

Why do yo take Crawlers with Eradication Beamer and not just with Neutron Laser?
Could you post your list? I´m interested in Anti-Cawl-Tactics.

Iago40k wrote:

Ideasweasel wrote:

Iago40k wrote:
Played against the new Tau yesterday with a Stygies detachment that included 4 Dragoons and (wait for it) 3 Dunecrawler with Eradication Beam. Along came a couple of scouts and an outrider Custodes with 3 x 3 Jetbikes and the Vexila Magnifica for -1 to hit.
The Dunecrawler are both, frustrating and amazing. They are very cheap and very durable and have the potential to be very dangerous. And thats the fun part. Now, they didnt hit or wound gak during the game because I rolled aweful BUT the opponent cannot let them just walk around and let them into 12" distance to eat 3 - 9 Melta shots. All in all and very dependent on the April update but most likely I kick Cawl and Dakkastelans out of my list in favor of Custodes.

Win or loss?

And more importantly did you enjoy the game?

We coulndt play it out but despite going second it would have gone my way. His first round of shooting got 1 Dunecrawler down on 1 wound and he killed one unit of scouts. With 3 riptides, coldstar, commander and a freaking lot of firewarriors. His 2nd round of shooting killed 5 Custodes bikes which was more than expected but he had to shove a lot of CP into it so I guess it was alright.

It was great fun playing with the bikes. They are what AdMech needs. Tau seems yet again to be a very gunline heavy army which will have problems. Overwatch on a 5+ with almost the whole army is nice but doesnt not kill enough i think. And they will have problems with game length. You really have to look out how long the Tau player takes since they dramatically loose their punch the longer the game continues.

Nice, I’m thinking about some bikes too. Good excuse to get into custodes!

Iago40k wrote:
Played against the new Tau yesterday with a Stygies detachment that included 4 Dragoons and (wait for it) 3 Dunecrawler with Eradication Beam. Along came a couple of scouts and an outrider Custodes with 3 x 3 Jetbikes and the Vexila Magnifica for -1 to hit.
The Dunecrawler are both, frustrating and amazing. They are very cheap and very durable and have the potential to be very dangerous. And thats the fun part. Now, they didnt hit or wound gak during the game because I rolled aweful BUT the opponent cannot let them just walk around and let them into 12" distance to eat 3 - 9 Melta shots. All in all and very dependent on the April update but most likely I kick Cawl and Dakkastelans out of my list in favor of Custodes.

Beamer Crawlers are interesting. But I fear they aren't nearly fast enough for what are essentially Melta Tanks.

The point of the Custodes is supposed to be to give your Kastelans more time to shoot. Lol.

Is there little me a consolidation of what we know about the new knights? Is there going to be a Gatling gun version? Price? Ect.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
For one more save, an invuln, a better gun (sans orders) and higher special weapon density if you want it, they'd compare decently against 5ppm guardsmen in my eyes at least.

Probably not amazing enough to sweep tournaments but they'd be good enough for casual play

I think rangers would see a huge increase in use if they got some sort of scout rule for another option of screening out your deployment zone.

bogalubov wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
For one more save, an invuln, a better gun (sans orders) and higher special weapon density if you want it, they'd compare decently against 5ppm guardsmen in my eyes at least.

Probably not amazing enough to sweep tournaments but they'd be good enough for casual play

I think rangers would see a huge increase in use if they got some sort of scout rule for another option of screening out your deployment zone.

Hell, even just Rangers themselves being given the Sniper rules(targeting characters and Mortal Wounds+damage) would be huge. They would have been worth their original points cost if that was the case.

227 with weapons for the Armiger.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
227 with weapons for the Armiger.

Garbage confirmed.

They can, however, be fielded as a UNIT of 1-3, which is neat. You could jam a bunch. If... You wanted to. I guess.

Thoroughly unusable. Rules as they are render them unplayable in even a totally casual game. Something that is flimsier than an Onager but costs 100 more points? Seriously? It doesn't get shroudpsalm or reroll 1s on invul saves, and can't be healed as well, so I don't think the extra wound makes it tougher than an Onager. It really is just a dreadnaught that costs another 50 points and moves a little faster.

Ouch worst fears confirmed. On the bright side I found my handicap unit for teaching new players the game I guess.

At least they're cheap Cash Wise?

"At least they're cheap Cash Wise?"

I REALLY doubt that. They'll probably be 70 eu each or something silly once out of the bundle

Welp, guess I'm not going to win any games for a while haha. 200 points was the logical cutoff for these and with the melta on top they're 240, hopefully that's egregious enough for a real point drop when the knight codex hits (whereas if they were 215 I'm pretty sure they'd be left alone).Trying to stay positive

What is madness is that the knight models tend to cost more than comparable models in other ranges in points. But knights have no auras! No buffs! No rerolls! No mortal wounds! No FNP! In a game dominated by rerolls, buffs, and mortal wounds, knights bring none of them to the table. And they are VEHICLES that can't step up to the second level of any terrain on the board. A space marine devastator is a pretty lousy model on its own. They cost like 40 points after their weapon. But they have access to heaps of buffs that make their 40 points viable. Kind of. The armiger has ... piss. Any comparison with an Onager needs to account for the bonuses from shroudspalm and Cawls full reroll aura (the best thing admech has going for it). I don't see how a knight codex could fix these problems. There would need to be a huge points discount for knights to be viable again. I can't imagine that the knight codex is going to provide reroll auras.

Wulfey wrote:
What is madness is that the knight models tend to cost more than comparable models in other ranges in points. But knights have no auras! No buffs! No rerolls! No mortal wounds! No FNP! In a game dominated by rerolls, buffs, and mortal wounds, knights bring none of them to the table. And they are VEHICLES that can't step up to the second level of any terrain on the board. A space marine devastator is a pretty lousy model on its own. They cost like 40 points after their weapon. But they have access to heaps of buffs that make their 40 points viable. Kind of. The armiger has ... piss. Any comparison with an Onager needs to account for the bonuses from shroudspalm and Cawls full reroll aura (the best thing admech has going for it). I don't see how a knight codex could fix these problems. There would need to be a huge points discount for knights to be viable again. I can't imagine that the knight codex is going to provide reroll auras.

They do have the "questor allegiance" keyword. Maybe that'll end up doing something? But yes, I can take a neutron onager and a dragoon and a min squad of rangers for 243 points, why oh why is this one 240?

I genuinely am curious how GW come up with the points structure for units. Dart board? Spinning wheel?

Rules department needs new blood or a more mathematical approach to balance.

Perhaps a spreadsheet like rvd1ofakind made but for the entire unit catalogue. Maybe they don’t realise that somethings are skewed. And if not, why not.

Someone sponsor rvd to draft up a little prototype for GW to help get them started haha

What's your source for the point cost ?

 Aaranis wrote:
What's your source for the point cost ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vXDp6SNOUo You can see it clearly in this video. It's 223 for the knight, thermal spear and chain cleaver included. So either add 4points for the stubber of 17 for the melta