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Yeah, that's too close for comfort.

Cat wait to see what Death Skulls get! Reroll the d3 for shooting?

Also an excellent strategem would be :
Empty da clip! - units of death skull lootaz can fire twice, expending all their ammo. The unit may not fire the next consecutive turn.

Something like that.

SilverAlien wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
That seems... unlikely.

Catachan conscripts swing at str 4, 5+ WS but they cost half as much as an ork. They have one attack base, another with a 30 point preacher, a third if in straken's bubble, and they have a 50/50 shot at getting a second round of attacks in their shooting phase with fix bayonets.

Also, given they trade toughness 4 for a 5+ and cost half as much, you'll have a lot more of them left when you reach the enemy.

They may not be quite as good, but you've gotta admit that's still pretty close.

It's not quite as good, but it is indeed pretty close... and that's just their melee ability.

Add to that their standard Guard level of shooting, along with FRFSRF, which by itself makes them better than Orks.

So super cheap horde, that can put out a lot of damage from shooting, and still almost beat Orks at close combat.

Who was it on this thread saying the new codex was balanced? Foolish boy.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Cat wait to see what Death Skulls get! Reroll the d3 for shooting?

Also an excellent strategem would be :
Empty da clip! - units of death skull lootaz can fire twice, expending all their ammo. The unit may not fire the next consecutive turn.

Something like that.

Maybe if they get max number of shots and +1 to hit. Otherwise, it's too big of a risk to lose a turn of shooting

Niiru wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
That seems... unlikely.

Catachan conscripts swing at str 4, 5+ WS but they cost half as much as an ork. They have one attack base, another with a 30 point preacher, a third if in straken's bubble, and they have a 50/50 shot at getting a second round of attacks in their shooting phase with fix bayonets.

Also, given they trade toughness 4 for a 5+ and cost half as much, you'll have a lot more of them left when you reach the enemy.

They may not be quite as good, but you've gotta admit that's still pretty close.

It's not quite as good, but it is indeed pretty close... and that's just their melee ability.

Add to that their standard Guard level of shooting, along with FRFSRF, which by itself makes them better than Orks.

So super cheap horde, that can put out a lot of damage from shooting, and still almost beat Orks at close combat.

Who was it on this thread saying the new codex was balanced? Foolish boy.

And more comically, if Guard really wanted to, they always have the option to spend a CP to combine squads, letting them run double Sergeants for good measure. Meaning two hidden S5 Power Axes that will not go away until all 18 other Guardsmen are gone.

Yup, Guardsmen are capable of "mobbing up" better than Orks. Take an Astropath to give them +1 armor, and they're now mini-Ardboyz.

This thread just makes me want to cry.... Why GW? Why do this to Orks?!?! Why do they hate us?!?!?

 lolman1c wrote:
This thread just makes me want to cry.... Why GW? Why do this to Orks?!?! Why do they hate us?!?!?

If it makes you feel better, all the balance problems were probably all accidental, rather than malicious.

Honestly orks need a rewrite of half their codex, rather than some overpowered strategems.

Army wide ability: Kontraptions!

The army must have 1 big mek per Kontraption. Ork vehicle transport capacity is not based on the number of models of infantry but the wounds of the model that wishes to board it.

i.e. you can put a deffdread in the back of a trukk, or 4 kans in 2 trukks in a battlewagon. If this was so, I'd like them to up the transport capacity of a gork/morkanought to fit a deff dread inside. imagine that, a deffdread disembarking from a gorkanought. And think of the modelling opportunities.

 malamis wrote:
MOAR DAKKA
1 CP - The targetted unit immediately makes a shooting attack that hits on 6s regardless of modifiers.

Oi! get Over 'ere!
2CP - During the movement phase, select one Ork Warboss Character Model. Any Ork Infantry units within 6" immediately move towards that model and combine into a single HQ unit and are treated as such for the rest of the game.

Kollection Of Hats
Special relic set for Freebootaz. Only one model in your army may have a Kollection of Hats. A model may be equipped with more than one Hat from a Kollection of Hats. Only one hat may be used per player turn.

Kommisar hat
Once per enemy turn you can inflict d3 mortal wounds on one of your units within 6". This unit may then make a move, shoot or charge action.

Inkwisitor Hat
Any Burnaz within 12" of the model equipped with this hat double the random result of attacks made. If shooting at a unit with the Psyker keyword, these attacks are resolved as +3 S.

Admiral's Hat
Once per game, pick an objective marker on the battle field. All units within 3d6 of the objective take d3 mortal wounds.

Blue Beaky Bonce
Whenever an opponent uses a strategem roll a d6; on a 6 you gain 1 command point.

Red Beaky Bonce
Affects all friendly units within 3" of the equipped model for the rest of the turn. Add 1 to movement characteristic. Any doubles rolled for charges inflict 1 mortal wound on both the charged unit and the unit that charged.

Green Beaky Bonce
Use when a model within 3" of the bearer rolls a 1 for armor save. The unit the model belongs to takes 1 mortal wound.

Gribbly Krown
Models within 12" may use the equipped model's leadership characteristic. The first time this model is affected by a psychic power (friend or foe) the source of the psychic power takes 1 mortal wound.

Panzee Pointy Bits
Use during the fight phase. Modify the equipped models Attack characteristic by d6 for this turn. If 4 or more 1s are rolled to-hit, your opponent may set up the equipped model anywhere on the battlefield.

This is pretty awesome.
Impossible but awesome.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marmatag wrote:
Tank Bustas no longer require line of sight to hit their targets, have a 72" range, and hit on a 4+ regardless of the target.

Stratagem: Multiply. 2CP. Return an Ork unit to life that has died this game. It must enter from your table edge and 9" away from enemy models.

It's pretty sad that even what people are fabricating still wouldn't put Orks on the same level as guard.

Also awesome.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My impossible short list -
Orks get subfaction specific "ordahs" that affect all units of that faction for one turn if and only if the warboss is of that faction. Determined later...

Ork vehicles cost 2/3 current points costs.

Blood axes get looted wagons with the same profiles as original units but hit at 4+. No more red button.

Kommandoes can also use looted wagons to infiltrate, can use sentry squigs, and can use sniper rifles hitting on 4+, and must pay points cost as if marine scouts. Every member of a kommando unit can use looted weapons, for example heavy bolters or lascannons, hitting on 4+ for original codex point cost. Alternately any and all can take ork special weapons, like burnas or big shootahs and so on...

Big shootahs are 5pts, assault 4, ap -2

Mega armor warbosses and meks can take attack squigs.

Snakebites can use boars with same profile as bikers but no guns, using cc weapons instead, for +2attacks on the charge and +1 normally, ap-1, plus boars themselves attack 2, strength 5, ap -2doing mortal wounds on the charge due to tusks and normally ap 0, hitting on 4+. Cloud of dust gives them 4+ save if they moved last turn.

Snakebite boys no guns but bonus attacks as boarboys above. Can infiltrate. Can use sguigs.

Squigs attack as if boars except chomp instead of tusks and can be upgraded with poison, armor piercing teef, exploding guts, acid vomit, and so on.

Heavy armor is back! 4+save 2points per model.

Ork leadership is always the size of the unit down to a minimum specified on the data sheet for the unit, for example kommandoes are leadership 8 unless in a unit of more than 8 in which case they are leadership (number of models). Nobs add 1 to leadership and act as commissars do with conscripts. Warbosses are leadership 100 and also act as commissars. Yes. 100. And any ork within 72" benefits.

I'm rather curious if the subfaction thing is going to be extended to ork klans. I think traditionally ork armies often had a mix of unit from various clans, such as kommandos, lootas, and such.

If GW makes a change to subfactions, that could be a major change from past ork codexes.

 argonak wrote:
I'm rather curious if the subfaction thing is going to be extended to ork klans. I think traditionally ork armies often had a mix of unit from various clans, such as kommandos, lootas, and such.

If GW makes a change to subfactions, that could be a major change from past ork codexes.

Mixing subfactions is already a thing, you just put your different klans in different detachments.

Galas wrote:Having a 53€ model cost 80 points isn't a great idea. I think Orks need something like a 20-30% point reduction in all or near all (Ignoring boyz and stormboyz) of their models, and something like a 15-25% increase in offensive and deffensive capabilities.

That would be Codex: Space Marines

No seriously, there are a few units that simply don't work and need to be redone, which is the traktor gun, the wazzbom blastajet, the SAG, MANz, spannas/meks, the morkanaut, the stompa and arguably warbikes. Pretty much everything else can be fixed by adjusting points.

SilverAlien wrote:I'm uh... I'm just gonna sit here impressed as people argue a 16 W vehicle with 20 model transport capacity is balanced at 80 points. Oh, and wth access to 5+ fnp on every single one in the army with a WT.

I mean, I suppose if you want ungodly tough transports that will never fail to deliver their cargo, has enough space to fit in a green tide of boyz, and can grab a defrolla to do some damage when it's charges to soak overwatch, be my guest. Run a few games like that. I really want to hear how it goes

Ugh, don't be such a GW ruleswriter (yes, that's and insult).
Those 20 models aren't space marines with combi-plasma bolters, they are models with a 6+ save and at best(!) slightly better heavy bolters with BS4+ (flash gits). In addition, unlike every other transport in the game, it only has a 4+ save.
A battlewagon still needs to survive two turns in order to deliver it's cargo into combat, which means sitting within 10" of the enemy for an entire turn.
80 points might be a bit low, but a deff rolla wagon with for 110 would probably still not see tournament play. Keep in mind that boyz lose their bonus attack at 19, that weirdboyz make close to no sense in battlewagon lists, and all auras are off while embarked, so no Waaagh!, +1 WS, +1A, FNP or morale protection for those who get shot out of their transport while everyone else is embarked.

The only thing that actually becomes OP from 5+ FNP would be boyz because they are already pretty strong... anything else? Not that much, especially considering that we can already have 6+ FNP on pretty much anything we want.

Death gaurd get 5+fnp and they don't even need a painboy!? So how is it op? The major problem with orks is our survival rates. In an elite list where we don't run horde we have almost no survival. We have to spend large points just to get a 5+ Invulnerable on 1 vehicle! Or 370pts to get a 9" 5+bubble! How can we do anything when in 1 turn we lose everything because we don't even get saves!?

 lolman1c wrote:
Death gaurd get 5+fnp and they don't even need a painboy!? So how is it op? The major problem with orks is our survival rates. In an elite list where we don't run horde we have almost no survival. We have to spend large points just to get a 5+ Invulnerable on 1 vehicle! Or 370pts to get a 9" 5+bubble! How can we do anything when in 1 turn we lose everything because we don't even get saves!?

Death Guard doesn't get units of 30 that can actually kill anything though. Cultists don't have DR, pox walkers max out at 20 and have a 7+ save and both have crappy stats compared to boyz, even if you buff them with typhus and/or psyker. The only thing that really compared to boyz would be plague bearers, but those break the death guard detachment or need to be summoned, cannot shoot and are still worse than boyz in combat.

You're not wrong on everything else, but boyz with 5+ FNP would be outright ridiculous.

 Jidmah wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:
Death gaurd get 5+fnp and they don't even need a painboy!? So how is it op? The major problem with orks is our survival rates. In an elite list where we don't run horde we have almost no survival. We have to spend large points just to get a 5+ Invulnerable on 1 vehicle! Or 370pts to get a 9" 5+bubble! How can we do anything when in 1 turn we lose everything because we don't even get saves!?

Death Guard doesn't get units of 30 that can actually kill anything though. Cultists don't have DR, pox walkers max out at 20 and have a 7+ save and both have crappy stats compared to boyz, even if you buff them with typhus and/or psyker. The only thing that really compared to boyz would be plague bearers, but those break the death guard detachment or need to be summoned, cannot shoot and are still worse than boyz in combat.

You're not wrong on everything else, but boyz with 5+ FNP would be outright ridiculous.

I'm not talking about boyz (boyz are pretty mich where they should be just a little crap because their special weapons cost way too much. I'm talking about elite units, especially the warboss who doesn't have an invuln save! Imagine if all waaaagh could be solved by firing a -3 ap weapon into a Warboss so he doesn't get a save... Also trucks! I've had a battlewagon taken down in one shooting phase by 2 squads of scions whose Turux Prime then demolished the rest of the units who fell out. All because battlewagons have no save or barely a save against most things now. I hate when i fire everything I got at a rhino and it bounces off then they all get out and just 1 shot me.... and it's basically double the points!

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
For every ork slain the ork player rolls 2d6. A turn later that many orks are deployed where the ork was slain.
OP and fluffy, the worse type of OP.

Also, what's wrong with then IG dex, and when did it get released?
Because I thought the ad mech and DG codices just came out recently.

It's on preorder.

The thread is born of typical hysteria. I'm going to point out that the changes to the Imperial Guard include nerfs to almost all the good units and buffs to most of the bad units, but the buffed bad units are still not as good as current good units. The only good units that got made better are the super heavy units.


We also got regimental doctrines, and the Mordian one is pissing people off, because it improves our overwatch

Can't agree with this opinion. The synergy of the codex made an army that was already top tier into a dominant force, it's just a question of how dominant. Saying stuff got nerfed completely ignores things like doctrines. I play both armies, and I feel for Ork only players.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
For every ork slain the ork player rolls 2d6. A turn later that many orks are deployed where the ork was slain.
OP and fluffy, the worse type of OP.

Also, what's wrong with then IG dex, and when did it get released?
Because I thought the ad mech and DG codices just came out recently.

It's on preorder.

The thread is born of typical hysteria. I'm going to point out that the changes to the Imperial Guard include nerfs to almost all the good units and buffs to most of the bad units, but the buffed bad units are still not as good as current good units. The only good units that got made better are the super heavy units.


We also got regimental doctrines, and the Mordian one is pissing people off, because it improves our overwatch

You're trying so hard to defend a hideously balanced faction.

The whole thing is out on the internet now. It is not born of "hysteria," that's the new argumentative vogue, though, isn't it? Mock your opposition = an argument.

Although that's better than your other argument you've been posting, which is basically, "space marine players want everything to be bad!" You just had to adapt that nonsense to fit with an Ork thread, because the typical toxic dakka narrative doesn't fit.

I've actually seen a few games of the codex army... it's interesting... In the hands of a normal fluff player they're competitive but not OP (Admech whipped their ass in one of the games) but in the hands of a cheese player they're unstoppable. We're talking hundreds to thousands of shots on turn 1 with no way for the enemy to come back from it. So really it just comes down to if the player is a dick or being a fun player... But let's not turn this into a thread about them! But then again... a cheese player can come from anywhere with any faction. Even Orks can cheese it up with 100s of Ork boyz and tons of Automatic D6 mortal wound weirboyz.... Cheese needs to be shunned!

 Jidmah wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:
Death gaurd get 5+fnp and they don't even need a painboy!? So how is it op? The major problem with orks is our survival rates. In an elite list where we don't run horde we have almost no survival. We have to spend large points just to get a 5+ Invulnerable on 1 vehicle! Or 370pts to get a 9" 5+bubble! How can we do anything when in 1 turn we lose everything because we don't even get saves!?

Death Guard doesn't get units of 30 that can actually kill anything though. Cultists don't have DR, pox walkers max out at 20 and have a 7+ save and both have crappy stats compared to boyz, even if you buff them with typhus and/or psyker. The only thing that really compared to boyz would be plague bearers, but those break the death guard detachment or need to be summoned, cannot shoot and are still worse than boyz in combat.

You're not wrong on everything else, but boyz with 5+ FNP would be outright ridiculous.

last edition boyz cost the same, their rokkitz were better, and they could take a Painboy which gave a 30+ mob (Or in the green tide a 300 Mob) 5+ FNP. Orkz were faster then as well. The only difference for boyz is the Leadership change and the +1 strength, Ohh and PKs got worse.

So why would 5+ FNP on boyz be broken? I mean it would definitely slow the game down a bit, but no more then those players who take the Painboy right now for that 6+ FNP. I have played a couple games where I fielded 120 Boyz in a giant blob getting a 5++ and a 6+++ and i still had a 30 boyz blob die on turn 1, Turn 2 was even worse because due to the need to close with the enemy which put me in double tap range. So I don't see how boyz with a 5+++ would be broken anymore so then they were last edition. Realistically its a 15% improvement in durability.

As to how I would lie to "Break" the ork codex, I wouldn't want to break it but I would like it to be a lot better then it is, at least on par with Marines. To start with Ghaz needs a pretty hefty buff. Not that he isn't awesome as is, but he is supposed to be the biggest baddest ork in the galaxy right now, he is supposed to be as big as if not bigger then a dreadnought. He should be stronger, more durable and more importantly, a bigger BUFF machine. I don't think its unfair to say that Orkz should be fearless around him, I don't think its unfair to say that they should gain +1 strength and +1 attacks and reroll failed wounds or something. His current buff is only good if you can have your boyz survive long enough to get into combat and pile on to their already 4 attacks (2 base, 1Choppa and 1 Over 20 models) Then its a good buff because it wipes out whatever unit you are facing, however if the boyz are under 20 or if your fighting a horde/tough vehicle or a really durable unit/units it would be beneficial to have a bigger buff that doesn't run out turn 1. Also, probably want to make his aura bigger and his movement slightly bigger.

For Boyz I would give them options. Klan rules I think will do a lot for this, but it would be nice to have elite "Ard Boy" units back. I would also love to be able to specialize mobs, how great would it be if Deff Skull Units got to take 1 Eavy weapon for every 3 Boyz, Who wouldnt want to see a Mob of Boyz with 10 Big Shootas or rokkitz? The biggest buff for boyz would be giving them +2inches of movement AND/OR giving their run move 3+D3 inches. The fact that a guardsman is faster then an ork is ridiculous. At the moment you are almost required to take a warboss to get the Waaagh rule because if you don't your enemy can just backpedal away from all your assaults and leave you open on the next turn to be destroyed>

For Vehicles, I would really like to see a hefty drop in points as well as an increase in armor saves. 4+ on a battlewagon doesn't make any damn sense. Make Ard Top a 20pt buff and it gives the wagon more durability AND Armor. Killa Kanz need a lot of love, their durability is about where you need it, but they suck in CC and they are mediocre in the shooting phase, plus they are drastically over priced.

I REALLY want to see a 40-50% Price cut on Bikes and Deff Koptas. I LOVE MY SPEED FREAKZ but right now they are not playable. Bikes are trash, koptas are trash, Trucks are trash. Really the only FA option that isn't complete trash are stormboyz who are still not as good as regular boyz with a weirdboy for transportation.


Overall, I think we need someone to write their codex who wants them to be competitive AND who understands the faction. The last 3 (Counting Index) were written by people who didn't know what they were doing.

Might be optimistic, but I can see Orks being broken with their codex.

The problem with Orks is that Green Tide is already quite good. Boring and one dimensional but it does work. A small nudge and it would quickly dominate the tournament scene (and murder casual lists).

Its very possible to imagine Blood Axes get the -1 to hit outside of 12". Lets chuck in a stratagem with infiltrate too. Or maybe say Bad Moons gets a deep strike stratagem.

In any case its a pretty boring list - but the ability to almost guarantee throwing multiple 30 man boy or stormboy blobs into combat on turn 1 rather than hoping on da jump to get one in would be a major buff. Meanwhile the rest of your army moves up taking 66/75% the damage they took previously. There are probably some generic damage buff stratagems too.

Unfortunately 90% of the Ork Codex would continue to suck - and barring sweeping price reductions I don't see that changing. It would be nice if it moved up to "okay".

 Marmatag wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
For every ork slain the ork player rolls 2d6. A turn later that many orks are deployed where the ork was slain.
OP and fluffy, the worse type of OP.

Also, what's wrong with then IG dex, and when did it get released?
Because I thought the ad mech and DG codices just came out recently.

It's on preorder.

The thread is born of typical hysteria. I'm going to point out that the changes to the Imperial Guard include nerfs to almost all the good units and buffs to most of the bad units, but the buffed bad units are still not as good as current good units. The only good units that got made better are the super heavy units.


We also got regimental doctrines, and the Mordian one is pissing people off, because it improves our overwatch

You're trying so hard to defend a hideously balanced faction.

The whole thing is out on the internet now. It is not born of "hysteria," that's the new argumentative vogue, though, isn't it? Mock your opposition = an argument.

Although that's better than your other argument you've been posting, which is basically, "space marine players want everything to be bad!" You just had to adapt that nonsense to fit with an Ork thread, because the typical toxic dakka narrative doesn't fit.

This, cheapest units in the game, shootiest units in the game (Pask 49 str 5 shots per turn, one unit, 2+ BS is one example), and fastest units in the game (move move move potential 24" for regular infantry). They destroy elite infantry, they destroy cheap infantry. Good luck orks, you'll need it. =/ Pask alone can whipe 30 boys a turn.

SemperMortis wrote:
last edition boyz cost the same, their rokkitz were better, and they could take a Painboy which gave a 30+ mob (Or in the green tide a 300 Mob) 5+ FNP. Orkz were faster then as well. The only difference for boyz is the Leadership change and the +1 strength, Ohh and PKs got worse.

And still they didn't see competitive play outside of the questionable green tide formation (which still didn't place above bottom 3 in any tournaments). So apparently they did get better.

So why would 5+ FNP on boyz be broken? I mean it would definitely slow the game down a bit, but no more then those players who take the Painboy right now for that 6+ FNP. I have played a couple games where I fielded 120 Boyz in a giant blob getting a 5++ and a 6+++ and i still had a 30 boyz blob die on turn 1, Turn 2 was even worse because due to the need to close with the enemy which put me in double tap range. So I don't see how boyz with a 5+++ would be broken anymore so then they were last edition. Realistically its a 15% improvement in durability.

Since you tend to ignore math that's not in favor anyways, I'm not going to bother with actually doing any exact calculations this time.
5++ FNP means that any mob of 30 boyz gets about an additional 10 wounds. For every 3 mobs you get a free mob worth of wounds. Instead of 180 wounds which dedicated horde-killing armies backed by the most borked force multipliers might just about be able to handle you now have 240 wounds, pushing everything that's not 100% dedicated to horde killing out of the meta. That's the very definition of broken, ignoring the possibility orks actually getting some decent range units that might kill one or two of those anti-horde units before turn 3.

As to how I would lie to "Break" the ork codex, I wouldn't want to break it but I would like it to be a lot better then it is, at least on par with Marines. To start with Ghaz needs a pretty hefty buff. Not that he isn't awesome as is, but he is supposed to be the biggest baddest ork in the galaxy right now, he is supposed to be as big as if not bigger then a dreadnought.

That's actually a misquote. The fluff says he is more killy than a dread, not that he is actually physically bigger. He is a lot more killy than dreads.

He should be stronger, more durable and more importantly, a bigger BUFF machine. I don't think its unfair to say that Orkz should be fearless around him, I don't think its unfair to say that they should gain +1 strength and +1 attacks and reroll failed wounds or something. His current buff is only good if you can have your boyz survive long enough to get into combat and pile on to their already 4 attacks (2 base, 1Choppa and 1 Over 20 models) Then its a good buff because it wipes out whatever unit you are facing, however if the boyz are under 20 or if your fighting a horde/tough vehicle or a really durable unit/units it would be beneficial to have a bigger buff that doesn't run out turn 1. Also, probably want to make his aura bigger and his movement slightly bigger.

Personally, I think the bigger issue with his buff is it not working when getting charged. If your opponent has counter-charge units he can pretty much negate the entire buff.

Overall, I think we need someone to write their codex who wants them to be competitive AND who understands the faction. The last 3 (Counting Index) were written by people who didn't know what they were doing.

What was your issue with the 4th edition codex? Or are you counting the supplement that shall not be named?

 Jidmah wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

So why would 5+ FNP on boyz be broken? I mean it would definitely slow the game down a bit, but no more then those players who take the Painboy right now for that 6+ FNP. I have played a couple games where I fielded 120 Boyz in a giant blob getting a 5++ and a 6+++ and i still had a 30 boyz blob die on turn 1, Turn 2 was even worse because due to the need to close with the enemy which put me in double tap range. So I don't see how boyz with a 5+++ would be broken anymore so then they were last edition. Realistically its a 15% improvement in durability.

Since you tend to ignore math that's not in favor anyways, I'm not going to bother with actually doing any exact calculations this time.
5++ FNP means that any mob of 30 boyz gets about an additional 10 wounds. For every 3 mobs you get a free mob worth of wounds. Instead of 180 wounds which dedicated horde-killing armies backed by the most borked force multipliers might just about be able to handle you now have 240 wounds, pushing everything that's not 100% dedicated to horde killing out of the meta. That's the very definition of broken, ignoring the possibility orks actually getting some decent range units that might kill one or two of those anti-horde units before turn 3.

What you're saying is true, but it's only really relevent for Ork players who want to run 180+ boyz. Which isn't very many.

If you're implying that Ork boyz are already broken, and need nerfing, then that's fine with me. As long as other units in the codex get buffed by the same amount as boyz are nerfed. Then we might actually have more than one viable unit in an entire codex.

Small clarification, 5++ FNP on Ork boyz is more then 10 free boyz, it's more like 15.

Don't believe me? Throw 45 wounds at 30 Ork Boyz with 5++

 Rismonite wrote:
Small clarification, 5++ FNP on Ork boyz is more then 10 free boyz, it's more like 15.

Don't believe me? Throw 45 wounds at 30 Ork Boyz with 5++

45 wounds that ignore 6+ armor (for ease) so against the 6+++ FNP that the current iteration of a Dok gives you = 7 1/2 saves. Making it a 5++ Changes it to 15. The only difference between last edition and this edition as far as Dokz and Boyz go is that the dok can now give that buff to several mobz and not just 1.....but again, Green tide lists last edition ALWAYS had a painboy in there for that 5+++ on 300 Models and it was still not even in the top 50% of Competitive lists. So again, I don't see how this would make them "Broken" Boyz got better by the Standard 4 strength and tougher units got weaker in general, add to the act that boyz now always hit on a 3+ in close combat. Overall it wouldn't really be broken, it would make them a lot tougher but not broken. ANd as for the idea of 180 boyz being fielded, That is fine and dandy, but they are already sitting at about half that if you take a Dok now.

To get back on topic though, I don't want boyz/stormboyz/kommandos to get a nerf, they are about the only good units in our codex right now and they it in with a number of fluffy play styles which are finally useful. I do want a lot of other ork units to become relevant though. My Bikes, Kanz, Dreadz, Naughts, Lootas and Trukkz sitting on my shelf collecting dust is really ticking me of.

Niiru wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

So why would 5+ FNP on boyz be broken? I mean it would definitely slow the game down a bit, but no more then those players who take the Painboy right now for that 6+ FNP. I have played a couple games where I fielded 120 Boyz in a giant blob getting a 5++ and a 6+++ and i still had a 30 boyz blob die on turn 1, Turn 2 was even worse because due to the need to close with the enemy which put me in double tap range. So I don't see how boyz with a 5+++ would be broken anymore so then they were last edition. Realistically its a 15% improvement in durability.

Since you tend to ignore math that's not in favor anyways, I'm not going to bother with actually doing any exact calculations this time.
5++ FNP means that any mob of 30 boyz gets about an additional 10 wounds. For every 3 mobs you get a free mob worth of wounds. Instead of 180 wounds which dedicated horde-killing armies backed by the most borked force multipliers might just about be able to handle you now have 240 wounds, pushing everything that's not 100% dedicated to horde killing out of the meta. That's the very definition of broken, ignoring the possibility orks actually getting some decent range units that might kill one or two of those anti-horde units before turn 3.

What you're saying is true, but it's only really relevent for Ork players who want to run 180+ boyz. Which isn't very many.

Yes, but if a unit becomes broken when spammed, it will be spammed and thus break the game. Storm Raven have proven that pretty impressively at the start of this edition.
For people with less than 180 there is a pretty simple solution though: Buff pain boyz. There is a limit to how many boyz can be within their aura, plus the need to actually be close to that model. It also costs points and needs an elite slot, while the suggested rule just gave everyone everywhere 5+ FNP.

If you're implying that Ork boyz are already broken, and need nerfing, then that's fine with me. As long as other units in the codex get buffed by the same amount as boyz are nerfed. Then we might actually have more than one viable unit in an entire codex.

I'm not sure about that. Boyz aren't broken right now because they have to pull their own weight and besides the weird boy nothing worth taking has any synergy with them (synergy means that both the unit and boyz benefit).
If, for example, lootaz became cheap as chips and you could easily field 45 in addition to your green tide, all those things giving boyz trouble right now would disappear in a hail of lead and suddenly twice as many boyz would hit the enemies gunlines, totally annihilating them. However, if lootaz became equally useful as boyz, there would be no problem because you would have to decide between boyz or lootaz.

So I guess boyz are as powerful as the can be right now, free 5+ FNP would just push them over the top.

Rismonite wrote:Small clarification, 5++ FNP on Ork boyz is more then 10 free boyz, it's more like 15.

Don't believe me? Throw 45 wounds at 30 Ork Boyz with 5++

Eh, in my case that would be 15 wound of overkill, but my battlewagon would only take a single one
But sure, I just didn't bother to do the math for those boyz taking a second or even third save.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Rismonite wrote:
Small clarification, 5++ FNP on Ork boyz is more then 10 free boyz, it's more like 15.

Don't believe me? Throw 45 wounds at 30 Ork Boyz with 5++

45 wounds that ignore 6+ armor (for ease) so against the 6+++ FNP that the current iteration of a Dok gives you = 7 1/2 saves. Making it a 5++ Changes it to 15. The only difference between last edition and this edition as far as Dokz and Boyz go is that the dok can now give that buff to several mobz and not just 1.....but again, Green tide lists last edition ALWAYS had a painboy in there for that 5+++ on 300 Models and it was still not even in the top 50% of Competitive lists. So again, I don't see how this would make them "Broken" Boyz got better by the Standard 4 strength and tougher units got weaker in general, add to the act that boyz now always hit on a 3+ in close combat. Overall it wouldn't really be broken, it would make them a lot tougher but not broken. ANd as for the idea of 180 boyz being fielded, That is fine and dandy, but they are already sitting at about half that if you take a Dok now.

Well, except a dok costing 65 which you could also spend on just getting 10 and five sixth of a boy. The original suggestion was giving everyone 5+ FNP for no point costs.

To get back on topic though, I don't want boyz/stormboyz/kommandos to get a nerf, they are about the only good units in our codex right now and they it in with a number of fluffy play styles which are finally useful. I do want a lot of other ork units to become relevant though. My Bikes, Kanz, Dreadz, Naughts, Lootas and Trukkz sitting on my shelf collecting dust is really ticking me of.

Agree. The rank and file melee units are exactly on spot, no changes to them besides upgrade costs please.
Lootaz are just slightly under the curve though in my experience. When your army is mostly footslogging they work towards target saturation, and they are not exactly pushovers for some random deep strikers. I think at 11 or 12 points they might become pretty awesome, at 14 still playable.

army-wide ability - nailz. The mekz add more nailz to da projekt, makin it wurk!

First Rank Assault, Second Rank Assault.

A warboss can give orders for an ork infantry unit to fight twice. Cost is zero command points.

It sounds just as dumb on orks as it does on guardsmen.

Akt of faif - on a 2+ the unit can either move again or fight again.

Bad Moons trait: Mor Teef! The Bad Moons player can spend twice as many points on their army as their opponent.

Job done.

Mark.