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Hey guys, apparently having a virtually infinite number of CP isn't an issue because you can only use one stratagem per phase! Being able to reroll once every phase on top of every other stratagem you might want isn't an issue at all, and doesn't increase power in anyway.

Seriously, just stop. Your codex is broken, last time you tried to defend broken stuff you were shown to be totally wrong.

Oh, and conscripts weren't nerfed in any meaningful way. So again, no.

Sorry where do the infinite CPs come from?

SilverAlien wrote:
Hey guys, apparently having a virtually infinite number of CP isn't an issue because you can only use one stratagem per phase! Being able to reroll once every phase on top of every other stratagem you might want isn't an issue at all, and doesn't increase power in anyway.

Seriously, just stop. Your codex is broken, last time you tried to defend broken stuff you were shown to be totally wrong.

Oh, and conscripts weren't nerfed in any meaningful way. So again, no.

No, it doesn't. I'm not sure where the infinite number of CP come from in the first place, and that would require strategems to be useful in all phases, and guard to not already have enough CP to use all the strategems they want.


The fact of the matter is the army got strictly worse. Good units were nerfed, and bad units were buffed, but the buffed bad units are still worse than even post-nerf good units.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
Sorry where do the infinite CPs come from?

I'm assuming that you're using weighted dice and using Kurov's Aquila, which lets you gain a CP whenever the opponent uses a Stratagem on a roll of 5+.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
6: Not like it matters, unless you're doing away with the rule that prevents you from using a strategem more than once per phase.

Well don't forget that it is you can't use the same stratagem more than once a phase, you can still use as many different ones as you like. With the quantity of new ones that can be added, you can blow through a lot of points in a single phase. You could heal a tank, make it charge and hit on 2+, get a unit to throw 10 krak grenades, run your sentinels towards objectives and then Vengence for Cadia your shadowsword. Not to mention all the stratagems that buff units (Armoury and Commissar tank, or the Tallarn outflank) or you use as reactions like overwatch and cover. There are now so many things to spend the points on that you are going to have to be careful not to blow through them all too quickly. Guard forces are going to want as many command points as possible, it is pretty insane what they can do if they have enough points. I think that proper stratagem use is going to be what separates the great players from the good.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
Sorry where do the infinite CPs come from?

The *potential* comes from the fact that Guard have both a Warlord Trait and Relic that gives CP refunds (Warlord Trait works when you use a Strat, the Relic works when your opponent uses one) making IG the most efficient at regenerating CP.
Couple that as being the army that has the easiest time spamming CPs naively, and some find that overwhelming.

I will say though, "infinite" is more than a bit hyperbolic.

How much terrain are you testing with? One of the most common problems is that people try to fight a gunline with what is effectively zero terrain, as it doesn't really block LOS at all and so doesn't limit the gunline much. I would try to increase levels of terrain until the fight is fair. A Cadian gunline is a lot easier to handle if you have cityfight levels of tall buildings. Of course, that may not be practical to achieve but I would definitely experiment in that direction.

People have been almost mindlessly chanting this mantra as the miracle "cure-all" since 6th ed. At the time, it may actually have been true, but terrain (of any kind) has never mattered less in any way than in 8th. It's the one thing I really think they totally failed at in an otherwise great ruleset. Non-scatter deep-strike and non-scattering, indirect fire weaponry means all that formerly awesome LoS blocking terrain you have means way less than it did last edition. No one has more (or better) indirect fire capability than the Guard ...

More cover didn't work when one of the main issues of the editions tended to be very, very mobile (Scat bikes and Wave Serpent Shield Lasers come to mind)

None listened when we said they failed adeptus mechanicus codes. All startin to say oh you want broken thing and great value in codex while it does not work.

Not next coded in a row broken. Broken badly instead or making astra near other armies they buffed it.

You might now get the picture. Gw has made books before real feed badk was given. Thse books are stupod trash that have nothing to do with

A) playtest
B) armies real str in table
C) community feedback
D) so much praised balance of 8th edition

They suppose to be listening this edition to community. Guess what?? They dont

Gonna play broken guard as the rest. Havent see nothing else the last month. Who ever plays anything else looses. And i can verify it for the large part of wh community in my country.

We had index why the f didnt they made preparation to listen to community? From all playing 8th to bored with broken trash in a month.

Amd if you cant see it you ll soon learn the hard way. Los bla bla childish excuses. Parrots of paid review of balqmce and value. Its f broken. We can play our armies and we cant stop people playing theirs. Its just stupid.

And there ar even now lot of kids that wanna see the codex. Why dont you go play this broken trash alone see if it works

LOS blockers work wonders against things like conscripts though. Have you ever seen a conscript blob try to advance up a 6" street? I'm really thinking about cityfight amounts of terrain here, where having small elite units can really help. Hell, you could even have certain roads where something like a baneblade wouldn't even fit. Of course, you shouldn't go overboard.

It would make sense for GW to push high terrain boards as the way to go, they sell terrain. I do agree that the terrain rules are very basic and need an update though.

You could always just go into house rules too. -1 to hit without LOS is a simple one I just thought of, slight nerf to artillery but fits somewhat to how they used to work. I prefer to work inside the rules than add extra rules, but it really is preferable to straight up banning models. As I have said, that should be the nuclear option after all else has failed.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
The fact of the matter is the army got strictly worse.

That is... not even close to the fact of the matter. The fact of the matter isn't even in the same city as that statement.

With the regimental bonus and access to more stratagems, even Conscripts got *better* than their Index equivalent. "Oh but everyone gets that stuff" you say. Yes, but everyone weren't kicking codex armies butts with their index army. Conscripts were already dominating the meta, and now they're better than ever, even with the nerfs they got.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
No, it doesn't. I'm not sure where the infinite number of CP come from in the first place, and that would require strategems to be useful in all phases, and guard to not already have enough CP to use all the strategems they want.


The fact of the matter is the army got strictly worse. Good units were nerfed, and bad units were buffed, but the buffed bad units are still worse than even post-nerf good units.

I have no idea how you could possibly think there is a reachable point where more cp isn't useful. Yes, 50 cp might be overkill, but 30? Even if you front load it in the first three turns, you can absolutely burn through 10 cp a turn if you want to. Most armies cap out at 10, and even then that takes sacrifices, guard can get 12 with ease, and with relic and warlord trait could be looking at around 19-20 effective CP. You can easily find a usage for 7 cp a turn early on.

You think your army got worse? Are you joking? The main two nerfs were to plasma scions and conscript offensive power. Do you want to compare that to the buffs?

Artillery is amazing now, with catachan. The basilisk now has the same offensive power as the manticore per point and more durable per point, doesn't run out of shots, and honestly the manticore itself didn't need any buffs. Super heavies are fairly disgusting. Conscripts can now be more durable than they were pre codex, the thing they were already broken at. Plus absurd WTs and Relics which are direct upgrades to some of the best options in previous codices. This is just at a glance, I'm sure there is more stuff in not seeing, given the numerous price cuts and small rules changes.

Claiming guard is weaker post codex is just... laughable. Absolutely laughable. I can't believe you'd even try to claim that.

I dont remember being payed from gw. On contrary we pay plastic in2017. If they can make a set of rules for some armies then their job is not done.

I dont pay for nothing and you all know if you wnna play you can without gw. That said and since i waited enough for this trash either they release with the monh some serious stuff or they wont see not even a dime more.

Who ever prefers to be moacked go ahead. Once more faq papers in hand just when a new codex released will not happen. I wont do it again so soon. Its stupid and pathetic. Cant f read comunity feadback f joke of a company.

No more excuses. New edition work if you wwnt money f trash 8 editions ans they cant f playtest what they release. Broken armies ,armies not working new qmounts of money for absolutely nothing new. F joke company and younf still support it. Youn better shape up community before you realose this game has only suckers playing it...it will not be the first game it lost its core and said bb.

Yoda79 wrote:
I dont remember being payed from gw. On contrary we pay plastic in2017. If they can make a set of rules for some armies then their job is not done.

I dont pay for nothing and you all know if you wnna play you can without gw. That said and since i waited enough for this trash either they release with the monh some serious stuff or they wont see not even a dime more.

Who ever prefers to be moacked go ahead. Once more faq papers in hand just when a new codex released will not happen. I wont do it again so soon. Its stupid and pathetic. Cant f read comunity feadback f joke of a company.

No more excuses. New edition work if you wwnt money f trash 8 editions ans they cant f playtest what they release. Broken armies ,armies not working new qmounts of money for absolutely nothing new. F joke company and younf still support it. Youn better shape up community before you realose this game has only suckers playing it...it will not be the first game it lost its core and said bb.

Well whoa boy guess I'm a sucker.

morgoth wrote:
You can't spell GW without evil
If GW did it it must be evil, that's the whole point of them being GW isn't it?

I like the new book. It provides a lot of variety to the army. Yes, some things are a little over the top but not so much that I worry that I can't compete with it.
I still think conscripts should lose the ability to score objectives, but otherwise, I don't really see many problems with the codex. Like most fights when you have an index army against a codex army, your going to suffer until yours comes out.

 SideshowLucifer wrote:
I like the new book. It provides a lot of variety to the army. Yes, some things are a little over the top but not so much that I worry that I can't compete with it.
I still think conscripts should lose the ability to score objectives, but otherwise, I don't really see many problems with the codex. Like most fights when you have an index army against a codex army, your going to suffer until yours comes out.

Don't get me wrong, I like the book. It's just way overtuned and some things, like conscripts, still need a proper fix, not just a variable nerf that you might fail an order (or not) and a unit size one. Those are way too small to nerf something that at the same time is getting buffs.

Tycho wrote:

How much terrain are you testing with? One of the most common problems is that people try to fight a gunline with what is effectively zero terrain, as it doesn't really block LOS at all and so doesn't limit the gunline much. I would try to increase levels of terrain until the fight is fair. A Cadian gunline is a lot easier to handle if you have cityfight levels of tall buildings. Of course, that may not be practical to achieve but I would definitely experiment in that direction.

People have been almost mindlessly chanting this mantra as the miracle "cure-all" since 6th ed. At the time, it may actually have been true, but terrain (of any kind) has never mattered less in any way than in 8th. It's the one thing I really think they totally failed at in an otherwise great ruleset. Non-scatter deep-strike and non-scattering, indirect fire weaponry means all that formerly awesome LoS blocking terrain you have means way less than it did last edition. No one has more (or better) indirect fire capability than the Guard ...

Regardless the opinion one could have about the codex - I say wait and see* but the signs are not good - this comment is spot-on, IMHO.
Terrain and how much is "interesting" is probably the greatest victim of 8th.

I dare to ask - people perceive and imbalance and I can see why. But how BIG is such imbalance? Are IG the 8th edition Eldar or there is nothing so far that operates at that obnoxious level?


* but then again, I underestimated the conscripts back then, very, very, VERY dumb Kaiyanwang

I agree. I expect conscripts will get one too, but honestly, most everything else in the codex seems fine to me. I also half expect indirect fire weapons to get a -1 to hit eventually.
If conscripts couldn't hold objectives and indirect fire weapons suffered a penalty, then things would be great.

 SideshowLucifer wrote:
I like the new book. It provides a lot of variety to the army. Yes, some things are a little over the top but not so much that I worry that I can't compete with it.
I still think conscripts should lose the ability to score objectives, but otherwise, I don't really see many problems with the codex. Like most fights when you have an index army against a codex army, your going to suffer until yours comes out.

Except that one of the exceptions to this rule was guard. Who were on par with and in a few case notably better than codex armies before they got their codex. Which buffed them overall.

I don't want to face guard with my codices armies. Admech tactics discussion has basically descended into "how much guard do we need to take to have a chance (consensus is roughly half the army currently). With DG or CSM I'm at a loss, as I still can't kill conscripts efficiently and can't outshoot them at range. Grey Knights are having a bad day, and SM armies just got a wake up call that no, guilliman is not optional, you are playing ultramarines with him and you are allying with guard, and if you don't like it then tough luck.

I can't even imagine how indices armies feel tbh. They struggled with previous codices armies, but for most they might as well not show up.

CassianSol wrote:

I know you said you played some playtesting games, but at least give it some time. It hasn't released yet. Instead of worrying about what it may be like, think about how to counter the army. Play it out on the table.

It may be unbalanced, but at least wait for it to be released and play against it a reasonable amount.

There is no reason to "give it time" The index AM was already blatantly overpowered accorss to board and winning practically every event. Apart from conscripts - everything is getting better. It's not hard to just write this edition off at this point.

SilverAlien wrote:

 SideshowLucifer wrote:
I like the new book. It provides a lot of variety to the army. Yes, some things are a little over the top but not so much that I worry that I can't compete with it.
I still think conscripts should lose the ability to score objectives, but otherwise, I don't really see many problems with the codex. Like most fights when you have an index army against a codex army, your going to suffer until yours comes out.

Except that one of the exceptions to this rule was guard. Who were on par with and in a few case notably better than codex armies before they got their codex. Which buffed them overall.

I don't want to face guard with my codices armies. Admech tactics discussion has basically descended into "how much guard do we need to take to have a chance (consensus is roughly half the army currently). With DG or CSM I'm at a loss, as I still can't kill conscripts efficiently and can't outshoot them at range. Grey Knights are having a bad day, and SM armies just got a wake up call that no, guilliman is not optional, you are playing ultramarines with him and you are allying with guard, and if you don't like it then tough luck.

I can't even imagine how indices armies feel tbh. They struggled with previous codices armies, but for most they might as well not show up.

I play orks dude... pretty much used to this feeling by now... just glad the rext of you know how we have felt all this time.... maybe this will encourage you all to get gw to buff orks.

Clearly, no. The IG index was broken and OP, and they clearly either weren't paying attention or don't care, so they went and made it better in every way.

I'm not even sure how 'balance' would be achieved at this point. The codex is out. It's done. Maybe it'll be balanced next edition.

 SideshowLucifer wrote:
I agree. I expect conscripts will get one too, but honestly, most everything else in the codex seems fine to me. I also half expect indirect fire weapons to get a -1 to hit eventually.
If conscripts couldn't hold objectives and indirect fire weapons suffered a penalty, then things would be great.

My one single Gripe is that Conscripts and Guardsmen are vying for the same slot. They're both cheap expendable chaff with poor offensive power in small numbers and no real melee to speak of, and their profiles are close to identical. Their job is the same, and that's poor game design. One is always going to do it better than the other.

your solution of not letting them hold objectives *at all* is not a bad solution. It forces Guardsmen into the list, and makes Conscripts only useful as bubblewrap and tarpits, which is exactly what they should be. I would just like to take it one step further and not allow them to fill a troop choice slot in a detachment, so that you can't use them to cap out on CP either. It's not like regular Guardsmen would have a hard time doing that too...

 Xenomancers wrote:

CassianSol wrote:

I know you said you played some playtesting games, but at least give it some time. It hasn't released yet. Instead of worrying about what it may be like, think about how to counter the army. Play it out on the table.

It may be unbalanced, but at least wait for it to be released and play against it a reasonable amount.

There is no reason to "give it time" The index AM was already blatantly overpowered accorss to board and winning practically every event. Apart from conscripts - everything is getting better. It's not hard to just write this edition off at this point.

What, you can't enjoy a game of GSC vs SM? Or anything else? Is the whole edition terrible because one codex is OP?
And I know it never gets talked about when it comes to balance, for obvious reasons, but what about power points? Since you've written off the edition, is that just competitive, because I've had huge enjoyment playing narrative (sometimes with open war cards for whacky fun).

 Kaiyanwang wrote:
Regardless the opinion one could have about the codex - I say wait and see* but the signs are not good - this comment is spot-on, IMHO.
Terrain and how much is "interesting" is probably the greatest victim of 8th.

I dare to ask - people perceive and imbalance and I can see why. But how BIG is such imbalance? Are IG the 8th edition Eldar or there is nothing so far that operates at that obnoxious level?

* but then again, I underestimated the conscripts back then, very, very, VERY dumb Kaiyanwang

This is a decent question. It is undeniably better than any previous codex, and as a stand alone army they are stronger than any other. To what degree remains to be seen, but I'm leaning towards slightly OP myself, at least compared to other codex armies. Again, most index armies are now at a more substantial disadvantage.

The reaction is partially due to the imbalances themselves and partially due to other factors. A big part of the frustration is that the nerfs for problematic units were tepid to the point of being ineffectual, while they felt comfortable tossing out massive buffs on multiple units, even as they added doctrines to every unit. Many units are being buffed in 2-3 different ways, between point changes, doctrines, and direct rule changes. That's a lot of buffs to do all at once, and makes their caution in nerfing certain units feel particularly egregious.

That and the fact you can point to huge swaths of their new relics, warlord traits, and a few stratagems as being directly superior to existing versions in previous codices is also not helping. Being superior in such a blatant and undeniable way provokes strong reactions.

Also, apologies if I seemed harsh earlier, I didn't mean to imply you or anyone else was stupid for advising caution before or now. It merely bothered me to see people being insulting and dismissive of others fears, despite such fears having been proven correct on past occasions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lolman1c wrote:
I play orks dude... pretty much used to this feeling by now... just glad the rext of you know how we have felt all this time.... maybe this will encourage you all to get gw to buff orks.

I'm unsure why someone who plays an already struggling index is happy to see the power level increased even higher. Yes, we all already want everyone to have a balanced codex, and hope they come sooner than later.

Also, I played CSM the last two editions, where the advice for our army was basically okay R&H or demons with token CSM allies. I'm fully aware how bad it could get. I'm unsure why you army falling even further down in the rankings is good news.

SilverAlien wrote:

Also, apologies if I seemed harsh earlier, I didn't mean to imply you or anyone else was stupid for advising caution before or now. It merely bothered me to see people being insulting and dismissive of others fears, despite such fears having been proven correct on past occasions.

I am often excessively harsh and abrasive so take offense from my part would be very hypocritical.

On topic: I find surprising that the guard has additional rules to get CP back, since the army is expected to really drove in them. This looks to me like a gross oversight.

I am happy to have started DG at the moment, the codex looks balanced albeit codex creep could push it back.

 Xenomancers wrote:

CassianSol wrote:

I know you said you played some playtesting games, but at least give it some time. It hasn't released yet. Instead of worrying about what it may be like, think about how to counter the army. Play it out on the table.

It may be unbalanced, but at least wait for it to be released and play against it a reasonable amount.

There is no reason to "give it time" The index AM was already blatantly overpowered accorss to board and winning practically every event. Apart from conscripts - everything is getting better. It's not hard to just write this edition off at this point.

Across the board?

So multilasers are OP? How about Chimeras and regular Tauroxes (the ones that can't take the gatling gun)? What about plasma cannon sentinels? Are grenade launchers OP? Missile launchers? Autocannons? Is the Index LRBT OP? How about sniper SWS? The Master of Ordinance with his single shot and 36" minimum range? How about medics?

And why is it that every instance of "AM winning every event" is actually Ultramarines with AM allies? If AM as a whole was that strong surely someone could win with a pure AM force?

I think everyone here is going a bit overboard (in both directions)

Think about how GW makes money here, they find theres a huge run on overpowered stuff. Think about how many people stocked up on stormravens when they started getting into 8th? Or how much brimstones sold out in the first few tournaments? Or even ravenwing flocks? Then the FAQs came out and were like "just kidding guys, thats stupid." GW is intentionally allowing this codex to be superpowered to get sales going on kits that don't move. I.E. guardsman squads, russes, basilisks (manticores are already sold out everywhere) and Baneblades. All of these will be set back in place once Chapter Approved comes out and does a big shift on the points. I myself foresee conscripts and infantry squads going up 1 point per model, back to the old prices, which also makes veterans more viable. I also would expect a 1pt. hike on Scions, or a 2pt premium to allow deepstrike.

Keep in mind that the turn around for printing is going to be 3-6 months depending on their supplier, so when they put in for AM it was with the knowledge of certain things that had not been broken yet by the community (like conscript spam, im sure they already knew it would be a problem which is why they made the changes they did).

Also keep in mind that just because they have a network of play testers doesn't mean that they will listen to them.

Also we have no idea how things like the "rule of one" will play into things come Chapter Approved, they could put a limit on certain kids of units, the amounts of detachments, etc.

Is this book overpowered, yes, yes it is, is it going to be OP forever? Highly unlikely. Will there be other OP books? YES. The only outlier in this entire equation is Admech being a rather dull book in general.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

CassianSol wrote:

I know you said you played some playtesting games, but at least give it some time. It hasn't released yet. Instead of worrying about what it may be like, think about how to counter the army. Play it out on the table.

It may be unbalanced, but at least wait for it to be released and play against it a reasonable amount.

There is no reason to "give it time" The index AM was already blatantly overpowered accorss to board and winning practically every event. Apart from conscripts - everything is getting better. It's not hard to just write this edition off at this point.

What, you can't enjoy a game of GSC vs SM? Or anything else? Is the whole edition terrible because one codex is OP?
And I know it never gets talked about when it comes to balance, for obvious reasons, but what about power points? Since you've written off the edition, is that just competitive, because I've had huge enjoyment playing narrative (sometimes with open war cards for whacky fun).

None of my group wants to play narrative. To answer your question though - No - I can't find enjoyment in a game where balance isn't even a factor. 80% of this game is list design. It's exceptionally depressing to know I'm failing at making a strong army just by not picking AM to start with. It sucks the fun out of it for me. Power points is just another failed point system if the game was balanced there wouldn't be any meaningful difference between the 2 anyways.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 generalchaos34 wrote:
I think everyone here is going a bit overboard (in both directions)

Think about how GW makes money here, they find theres a huge run on overpowered stuff. Think about how many people stocked up on stormravens when they started getting into 8th? Or how much brimstones sold out in the first few tournaments? Or even ravenwing flocks? Then the FAQs came out and were like "just kidding guys, thats stupid." GW is intentionally allowing this codex to be superpowered to get sales going on kits that don't move. I.E. guardsman squads, russes, basilisks (manticores are already sold out everywhere) and Baneblades. All of these will be set back in place once Chapter Approved comes out and does a big shift on the points. I myself foresee conscripts and infantry squads going up 1 point per model, back to the old prices, which also makes veterans more viable. I also would expect a 1pt. hike on Scions, or a 2pt premium to allow deepstrike.

Keep in mind that the turn around for printing is going to be 3-6 months depending on their supplier, so when they put in for AM it was with the knowledge of certain things that had not been broken yet by the community (like conscript spam, im sure they already knew it would be a problem which is why they made the changes they did).

Also keep in mind that just because they have a network of play testers doesn't mean that they will listen to them.

Also we have no idea how things like the "rule of one" will play into things come Chapter Approved, they could put a limit on certain kids of units, the amounts of detachments, etc.

Is this book overpowered, yes, yes it is, is it going to be OP forever? Highly unlikely. Will there be other OP books? YES. The only outlier in this entire equation is Admech being a rather dull book in general.

True - they could change all the rules next year with chapter approved - but it's no excuse for making an army this OP to begin with. I know GW needs to make money. However - rules doesn't really sell their stuff. I got Primaris stuff because it looks cool to me and I figured they would make a balanced game around it. Turns out - they are worthless piles of garbage rules wise. What we have here is truely a a failure to understand what balance is. They literally pull point values out of their butts for most stuff.

Glad to know I kept my leafblower IG force. They are ready to come out for some sweet easy wins and maybe some trophies!

(y)