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With the new FAQ for chaos allowing strategems to be used on any model in the force, there is a potential for Magnus using boon of mutation (Chaos boon 7 or 9) and Tzeentch CSM psychic powers to have a 2++, re-rolling 1s.

It looks like we're working our way back to 7th again; with GW (or maybe their TO "consultants") refusing to clamp down on allies this is the inevitable result.

Magnus can't benefit from Chaos Boon because he is a DAEMON (see the FAQ). But in general, yes, we're seeing a lot of very strong and easily-obtainable invulnerable saves. GKs can easily get 2++s on Grandmasters, Magnus can get a 3++ re-rolling 1s, and now Bullgryn and Crusaders can get a 2++. Of course a CP can be used to re-roll the first failure each phase. There doesn't seem to be a great answer to these currently other than mortal wounds, which some armies don't have great access to. I guess lasguns do okay.

I would not be surprised if their TO "consultants" purposely hide this so they can exploit the metagame.

I smell Daemonforged Soulgrinders, or other shenanigans in the future. And they said Superfriends were dead.

Dionysodorus wrote:
Magnus can't benefit from Chaos Boon because he is a DAEMON (see the FAQ). But in general, yes, we're seeing a lot of very strong and easily-obtainable invulnerable saves. GKs can easily get 2++s on Grandmasters, Magnus can get a 3++ re-rolling 1s, and now Bullgryn and Crusaders can get a 2++. Of course a CP can be used to re-roll the first failure each phase. There doesn't seem to be a great answer to these currently other than mortal wounds, which some armies don't have great access to. I guess lasguns do okay.

2++ grand masters easily? It costs a psychic power, for one, and your grand master only knows 1 in addition to smite. Secondly, you'd have to spend 2CP to get that from 3++ to 2++ for the span of 1 defensive turn. The points investment to make this happen is not insignificant. And why do that on a unit that is already difficult to target, considering it's a character?

In reality you can just shoot around the grand master, he's not as big of a threat as Magnus, who has 18 wounds and can nuke stuff off of the board with his smite.

 Marmatag wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:
Magnus can't benefit from Chaos Boon because he is a DAEMON (see the FAQ). But in general, yes, we're seeing a lot of very strong and easily-obtainable invulnerable saves. GKs can easily get 2++s on Grandmasters, Magnus can get a 3++ re-rolling 1s, and now Bullgryn and Crusaders can get a 2++. Of course a CP can be used to re-roll the first failure each phase. There doesn't seem to be a great answer to these currently other than mortal wounds, which some armies don't have great access to. I guess lasguns do okay.

2++ grand masters easily? It costs a psychic power, for one, and your grand master only knows 1 in addition to smite. Secondly, you'd have to spend 2CP to get that from 3++ to 2++ for the span of 1 defensive turn. The points investment to make this happen is not insignificant. And why do that on a unit that is already difficult to target, considering it's a character?

In reality you can just shoot around the grand master, he's not as big of a threat as Magnus, who has 18 wounds and can nuke stuff off of the board with his smite.

That still strikes me as pretty straightforward and reliable; certainly moreso than what the OP thought you could do with Magnus by rolling on the Chaos Boon table. Also it works with Grandmasters in NDKs, which aren't protected by the character rule. And for Draigo it's even easier than for other GMs since there you don't even need the psychic power. Finally, the CP cost is pretty easy to pay for a GK detachment attached to a Guard army or similar. I mean, just look at the new Guard warlord traits and relics. This feels like kind of a disproportionate response to my use of a perfectly justifiable adverb.

Not everyone staples the new cheese to their GK army to get infinite command points and undercosted plasma, and bodies.

And a GMNDK geared out will cost you 300 points. It should be more survivable than toughness 6 with a 4++.

2++ saves don't matter, fails on 1s. Magnus 3++ rerolling 1s don't matter, fails on 2s. As long as at least 1 in 6 results in a wound then it's not an issue. 2+ rerollable cover saves and invulns plus only hit on 6s because it's invisible were the issue with immortality. Now they are carefully sidestepping any methods of getting these.

Plus, the FAQ didn't alter anything. It explained how the rules already worked, and how most of us have been playing it since launch. GW is more than aware that stratagems can stack and even FAQd the Grey Knights power Sanctuary to MAKE it stack with the stratagem for the 2++ invuln. They know what they're doing and doing it intentionally.

 Marmatag wrote:
Not everyone staples the new cheese to their GK army to get infinite command points and undercosted plasma, and bodies.

And a GMNDK geared out will cost you 300 points. It should be more survivable than toughness 6 with a 4++.

Okay? I feel like you're trying to pick a fight about something I'm not talking about. I've been saying that we're seeing a lot of high invulnerable saves which are pretty easy to get -- it's not some weird process like having to have your character kill an enemy character and then maybe turn into a Chaos Spawn. And then these high invulnerable saves are really hard to deal with without mortal wounds. I mean, it's just generally true that things with 2+ saves of any sort tend to be very durable unless you have some way of forcing them to take worse than a 2+ save. The models we're talking about tend to have high toughness as well and so are pretty durable against typical AP0 weapons (which are otherwise what you'd want to bring against 2++). This goes for the GK in NDK too. Whatever you want to say about the rest of the codex or about what the model is like unbuffed, it's extraordinarily hard to deal with when given a 2++. Unless you have lots of mortal wounds.

I think GW always intended Stratagems to be something that are applied to armies, not subfactions. Stratagems contain their own rules that specify what units they can be applied to.

2++ rerollable saves don't concern me, they last for one turn. People have been arguing about this, but Chaos Familiar could be used on Mortarion to give him warptime. He's eligible based on the rules in the Stratagem itself.

it's more concerning because he would be almost guaranteed a first turn assault, hits and wounds on anything but a 1, and this stays with him the rest of the game.

It's the Stratagems that stick with a unit that are the toughest to deal with, especially if they stack with other bonuses. There are not many of them, but they do have a lot of power.

Wayniac wrote:
I would not be surprised if their TO "consultants" purposely hide this so they can exploit the metagame.

Cough Cough* Smite Cough*

 greyknight12 wrote:
With the new FAQ for chaos allowing strategems to be used on any model in the force, there is a potential for Magnus using boon of mutation (Chaos boon 7 or 9) and Tzeentch CSM psychic powers to have a 2++, re-rolling 1s.

It looks like we're working our way back to 7th again; with GW (or maybe their TO "consultants") refusing to clamp down on allies this is the inevitable result.

Mortal Wounds is the answer this time.

and they laughed at me at the university for having two Skyrays! Hahahaha!

Dionysodorus wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Not everyone staples the new cheese to their GK army to get infinite command points and undercosted plasma, and bodies.

And a GMNDK geared out will cost you 300 points. It should be more survivable than toughness 6 with a 4++.

Okay? I feel like you're trying to pick a fight about something I'm not talking about. I've been saying that we're seeing a lot of high invulnerable saves which are pretty easy to get -- it's not some weird process like having to have your character kill an enemy character and then maybe turn into a Chaos Spawn. And then these high invulnerable saves are really hard to deal with without mortal wounds. I mean, it's just generally true that things with 2+ saves of any sort tend to be very durable unless you have some way of forcing them to take worse than a 2+ save. The models we're talking about tend to have high toughness as well and so are pretty durable against typical AP0 weapons (which are otherwise what you'd want to bring against 2++). This goes for the GK in NDK too. Whatever you want to say about the rest of the codex or about what the model is like unbuffed, it's extraordinarily hard to deal with when given a 2++. Unless you have lots of mortal wounds.

Which is why Terminators were known as impossible to kill with basic bolter-level weaponry in 7th ed, amirite?

The problem with re-rollable 2++ saves is that you go from 1/6 chance of failure (2++) to 1/9 chance of failure (rerollable 3++) and then SPIKE right to 1/36 - that's a HUGE increase in durability if you can achieve that secret sauce of getting a 2++ and a reroll.

So it would be a problem if the new FAQ had introduced that, but as it's been pointed out, it has not.

 techsoldaten wrote:

it's more concerning because he would be almost guaranteed a first turn assault, hits and wounds on anything but a 1, and this stays with him the rest of the game.

Magnus is effectively no different. Turn 1 charges if you want it. Hits and wounds almost anything on 2+ and rerolls 1s to hit. The only difference is no sweep attack, but smite more than makes up for that.

Imperial Guard are similar now.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Imperial Guard are similar now.

Spoiler:

You know, in 40k things cost "points" which determine their relative effectiveness. The combo you have described on the right (which could be described instead as an ogre with a shield made of adamantium blessed by an actual angel and enhanced by warp magic) appears to cost about 200 points, versus lets see...fifty two, for the alternative.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Imperial Guard are similar now.

Spoiler:

My money would be on the beefy frikkin' ogre holding a huge metal slab the thickness of my torso while being protected by a literal guardian angel and extradimensional magic.

The other dude has armour that looks to be made out of a metal you can literally chew, and so much of it he shouldn't be able to stand up.

Why would I give a gak about invulnerable saves when I'm gaking out mortal wounds?

the_scotsman wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Imperial Guard are similar now.

Spoiler:

You know, in 40k things cost "points" which determine their relative effectiveness. The combo you have described on the right (which could be described instead as an ogre with a shield made of adamantium blessed by an actual angel and enhanced by warp magic) appears to cost about 200 points, versus lets see...fifty two, for the alternative.

325 actually cause bullgryns come in min squads of three. To get the 2++ you need to get off the strategem AND psychic power as well. Not only that but bullgryns unlike custodes have to choose to build exclusively either melee or ranged and are worse in BS, WS, attacks, rend, and potential damage.

Crusaders on the otherhand are 150pts for a ten man squads , but they are S3 with powerswords. Not super impressive.

As a guard player the 2++ is nice to have, dont get me wrong but with the points cost, a single reroll per phase, multi damage weapons, and needing to rely on psychic powers that can only be cast once per turn going off I'm not seeing it as SUPER reliable. Sure it will be great when it works but theres way to shut it down, or in chaos's case just flat out remove the invuln.

Bullgryns can't take a slabshield and a bruteshield; it's one or the other. How do they end up with a 2++?

It's worth noting that you can do this much more simply by just giving the Bullgryn bruteshields instead, although this leaves them somewhat more vulnerable outside of the shooting phase (the stratagem doesn't apply) or if the psychic power fails (or on your opponent's first turn if going second).

Alternatively, just forget Celestine. A slabshield is a 2+ already, improved to a 0+ by the psychic power and stratagem, and even a -1+ with cover (if cover stacks with the stratagem). In cover, you need a melta gun before they fail a save on anything but a 1.

Alcibiades wrote:
and they laughed at me at the university for having two Skyrays! Hahahaha!

What university is this?
Some characters are hard to take down. We'll have to live with it.