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 Nerak wrote:


On a side note I want to see Tau genestealer cults

Yeah I like the idea of those as well. In the fluff it's stated that due to their caste structure and rigid breeding programme it's difficult for GS Cults to take hold. However, what I thought was what if the person who is doing the organising of the breeding programme is infected? The GS Cult could basically propagate themselves using the pre-arranged breeding programme the Tau have in place and take over the planet in double-quick time...

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Nerak wrote:


On a side note I want to see Tau genestealer cults

Yeah I like the idea of those as well. In the fluff it's stated that due to their caste structure and rigid breeding programme it's difficult for GS Cults to take hold. However, what I thought was what if the person who is doing the organising of the breeding programme is infected? The GS Cult could basically propagate themselves using the pre-arranged breeding programme the Tau have in place and take over the planet in double-quick time...

beast_gts wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Nerak wrote:


On a side note I want to see Tau genestealer cults

Yeah I like the idea of those as well. In the fluff it's stated that due to their caste structure and rigid breeding programme it's difficult for GS Cults to take hold. However, what I thought was what if the person who is doing the organising of the breeding programme is infected? The GS Cult could basically propagate themselves using the pre-arranged breeding programme the Tau have in place and take over the planet in double-quick time...

Spoiler:

Awesomesauce

 Nerak wrote:

 Galef wrote:
What happens is the original Patriarch dies? Does another purestrain Genestealer take his place?

IIRC according to the Comissar Cain books it takes three generations of human cultists to breed genestealers. Once the original generation recieve the "genestealer kiss" it messes up their brains and DNA. It's common for the memory of recieveving the infection to be removed from the target, making them a form of "sleeper agents". Their kids would be horribly missformed mutants though. Hence if the original Patriarch dies worst case scenario the cult will have to wait for three generations for one of their grandkids to take up the mantle. They're genetically manipulated to love their hideous offspring too.

Yeah, though it's unlikely that the patriarch is alone. Where there is one genestealer, there is usually more.

Imperial or even Chaos genetic manipulation is also highly improbable.

The IoM doesn't really understand how Tyranid genetics work, and Genestealer hybrids are particularly resistant to Chaos as their hybrid minds simply don't work in a way that could be influenced by Chaos.

Tyran wrote:
Imperial or even Chaos genetic manipulation is also highly improbable.

The IoM doesn't really understand how Tyranid genetics work, and Genestealer hybrids are particularly resistant to Chaos as their hybrid minds simply don't work in a way that could be influenced by Chaos.

Um, what? The original genestealer cults were explicitly chaos cults.

Voss wrote:

Tyran wrote:
Imperial or even Chaos genetic manipulation is also highly improbable.

The IoM doesn't really understand how Tyranid genetics work, and Genestealer hybrids are particularly resistant to Chaos as their hybrid minds simply don't work in a way that could be influenced by Chaos.

Um, what? The original genestealer cults were explicitly chaos cults.

Yes, original, that was a few decades ago.

Current genestealer cults are not the same as the originals, as shown by their Tyranid keyword in their datasheets.

Also in the Genestealer Cult novel it was shown that Genestealers have no interest on the promises of Chaos. Although infected humans are still vulnerable, although they can draw protection from their hybrid brethren.

Voss wrote:

Tyran wrote:
Imperial or even Chaos genetic manipulation is also highly improbable.

The IoM doesn't really understand how Tyranid genetics work, and Genestealer hybrids are particularly resistant to Chaos as their hybrid minds simply don't work in a way that could be influenced by Chaos.

Um, what? The original genestealer cults were explicitly chaos cults.

GW always rewrites and retcons their fluff. If it wasn't mentioned in one of the last set of books it probably didn't happen.

Tyran wrote:

Also in the Genestealer Cult novel it was shown that Genestealers have no interest on the promises of Chaos. Although infected humans are still vulnerable, although they can draw protection from their hybrid brethren.

The 'promises' of Chaos perhaps. The active mutability of the Warp and Chaos Gods? Not so much. Old Papa Nurgle could quite easily mix something up to weaken the hold of the Hive Mind first, and disciples of Tzeentch can still wave a claw and dissolve a physical form into a mewling spawn (or any physical form in between). It's one thing to not be intellectually interested in what Chaos has to offer, it's another to be invulnerable to the genetic mutability the warp can bestow.

Well, when the hive fleet approaches, the Patriarch gets taken over, but the cultists themselves, not counting the genestealers. are independent.

In theory, a cult could survive a tyrannid invasion in which the Patriarch was slain, and the tyrannids driven off. In which case you would have cultists still around without psychic control, possibly even having lost their faith in the Tyranids.

They wouldn't really be a cult any longer though, just some very, very disillusioned people.

 Ketara wrote:

Tyran wrote:

Also in the Genestealer Cult novel it was shown that Genestealers have no interest on the promises of Chaos. Although infected humans are still vulnerable, although they can draw protection from their hybrid brethren.

The 'promises' of Chaos perhaps. The active mutability of the Warp and Chaos Gods? Not so much. Old Papa Nurgle could quite easily mix something up to weaken the hold of the Hive Mind first, and disciples of Tzeentch can still wave a claw and dissolve a physical form into a mewling spawn (or any physical form in between). It's one thing to not be intellectually interested in what Chaos has to offer, it's another to be invulnerable to the genetic mutability the warp can bestow.

Genestealers are known to be able to survive unprotected travel through the warp just fine. Sure they can suffer mutations and nurgle diseases, but their genetics are robust enough to avoid crippling damage to their mission.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

Alcibiades wrote:
Well, when the hive fleet approaches, the Patriarch gets taken over, but the cultists themselves, not counting the genestealers. are independent.

In theory, a cult could survive a tyrannid invasion in which the Patriarch was slain, and the tyrannids driven off. In which case you would have cultists still around without psychic control, possibly even having lost their faith in the Tyranids.

They wouldn't really be a cult any longer though, just some very, very disillusioned people.

The Tyranids avoid eating the cultists until all other prey has been eaten. The cultists don't discover the truth until it is too late.

As a general rule Tyranids has a complicated relationship with Chaos. They caste the shadow in the warp, are drawn to the astronomican and are not intrested in deamons. However they themselves genetically engineer psykers and can be comunicated with by powerfull telepathy psykers. Usually this costs the life of the psyker in question (Tigirius hype!). They use the warp as a conduit to talk with each other so well... What I'm getting at is that it should be possible for a Tyranid chaos god to be formed and lure seperate hive ships or cults to its bidding. A chaos Tyranid god of hunger? Certainly a deamon should be able to pose its will over lesser nids organisms.

The old argument that "a stone can be corrupted by chaos" springs to mind. I have not read the genestealer cults novel, but I highly doubt genestealers are chaos immune, though certainly resistent against conventional chaos corruption, if there is such a thing.

Yeah the way I like to see it is that the 'nids are just as alien to the Chaos Gods as they are to us. So while they are certainly corruptible, they aren't in any of the ways that the gods are used to corrupting in and they're just as perplexed/freaked out by their workings as the Imperium are.

I cant rember where I read it but I thought the fluff was that the shadow in the warp created by the approaching hive mind cause genestealers to fleet the planet and so spread even further and it was only those that couldn't fleet that were claimed by the hive mind, so in a way they are trying hard to be independent

It is important to make a distinction. Spiritual and physical corruption.

Physical corruption is simply the ability of Chaos to warp any physical objects like rocks, planets or even stars. It is also present in many of its followers who grow tentacles or other weird stuff. Tyranids aren't immune to physical corruption and may suffer mutations caused by warp exposure.

The other corruption is spiritual. This is what leads to individuals, organizations and civilizations to fall to Chaos, this is what turned Horus against the GEOM. Tyranids are immune to spiritual corruption.

These two types of corruption feed each other. You need spiritual corruption before physical corruption can manifest, but the presence of physical corruption can lead to spiritual corruption.

The fact that Tyranids are immune to one type makes them very resistant, because it interrupts the cycle that is needed for the propagation of Chaos. A Tyranid may be physically mutated by Chaos, but it will never fall to Chaos like mortals do. The physical mutation may at most kill the Tyranid as its body becomes incapable of function, but the spiritual part of the Tyranid will remain pure and linked to greater collective that is the Hive Mind.

goundry wrote:
I cant rember where I read it but I thought the fluff was that the shadow in the warp created by the approaching hive mind cause genestealers to fleet the planet and so spread even further and it was only those that couldn't fleet that were claimed by the hive mind, so in a way they are trying hard to be independent

I remember that as well. As soon as the hive fleet nears its target, the genestealers have a sudden pang of self-preservation and do anything they can to escape the planet, usually stowing away on ships bound for other worlds.

I would like to think that in a universe as vast and complex as 40K, anything is possible. Come up with a cool story, make some neat conversions, and I doubt anyone would care too much.

Well Genestealer Cults do go it alone until a tendril of the Hive Mind shows up. And it seems unlikely the Tyranids have a one hundred percent success rate in finding/reconnecting with every Patriarch out there. Therefore there are plenty of cults out there that remain independent and could do so indefinitely. In other words, not every cult necessarily faces the fate of being absorbed.

I even think it would be ok for a cult to resist a smaller/dwindling splinter force of Tyranids who perhaps didn't have such a strong connection to the Hive Mind. So there's the possibility of facing each other on the battlefield.

There's always an excuse in 40k - make it your own story.

Now if some cultist members are horrified by being eaten lets say that they fought back and managed to not only defeat the hive fleet (Which I can only assume in this case would have to be a weaker splinter fleet trying to get a quick snack) and defeat the imperial forces on the world what would happen after that? The surviving cultists have no grand delusions about the Tyranid fleet and no ability to seek refuge in the Imperium. Also wouldn't their offspring still result in genestealers every couple of generations?

They would need stop reproducing (which is kinda hard as it goes against their genetic programming). Because the moment they produce a Genestealer they are pretty much screwed thanks to their genetic loyalty.

craftworld_uk wrote:
Well Genestealer Cults do go it alone until a tendril of the Hive Mind shows up. And it seems unlikely the Tyranids have a one hundred percent success rate in finding/reconnecting with every Patriarch out there.

Not to mention that Hive Fleets fight each other if they meet, the weaker party getting absorbed by the "winner" who just wasted all his resources on the battle. Genestealers descending from a different fleet than the one approaching might be harder to control, at least initially. Their natural response to an enemy contacting them would be fight or flight.

The nids don't communicate through the warp. Their communication is so vast and constant that it reflects in the warp however.

Important distinction.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spetulhu wrote:

craftworld_uk wrote:
Well Genestealer Cults do go it alone until a tendril of the Hive Mind shows up. And it seems unlikely the Tyranids have a one hundred percent success rate in finding/reconnecting with every Patriarch out there.

Not to mention that Hive Fleets fight each other if they meet, the weaker party getting absorbed by the "winner" who just wasted all his resources on the battle. Genestealers descending from a different fleet than the one approaching might be harder to control, at least initially. Their natural response to an enemy contacting them would be fight or flight.

There is ONE hive fleet that seems to be fighting others.

Most hive fleets just merge.

Remember hive fleets don't really exist. It's just a clasification IoM uses to differentiate different blobs of nids floating about. A name mankind gives to try to quantify the unquantifiable. A name to give voice to their destruction.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
No.

Once the Hive Mind is within range, the genestealer cult becomes controlled by the Hive Mind directly. They no longer have any free will, and being brain washed cultists they likely don't care about being absorbed into the hive fleet. Of course not all the genestealer cult will be eliminated. They'll have sent some of their purestrain genestealers ahead to keep spreading across the galaxy seeding new cults.

Do they become directly controlled? Do you know where i can find that in the fluff/have a source?

Not that i disbelieve you or anything, but i had a neat idea for a GS Cults character whose cult called the 'nids but they were defeated. The revelation that their glorious salvation was a swarm of ravenous aliens was apalling, so now he's sort of on the run from both the Imperium and the 'nids, starting Cults and then abandoning them/culling them when they start getting big enough to aattract the hive mind. Sort of like a Genestealer Suicide-Cult

This sounds like great and plausible fluff. Do it!

 Pete Melvin wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Given that all mutations are 100% controlled by the Hive Mind, it's impossible.

Not true

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ymgarl_Genestealer

Unlike any other Tyranid creature, the Ymgarl Genestealers are outcasts. The Hive Mind has no wish to reabsorb their genetic material in fear that the uncontrollable genetic instabilities that allow the Ymgarl Genestealers their formidable flesh-shaping abilities might contaminate the Tyranid gene-pool.

So the secret is for all Imperium worlds to capture some of these and cage them as a sort of Worldwide immmunity? Why hasn't the eldar thought of this?

 Lance845 wrote:
The nids don't communicate through the warp. Their communication is so vast and constant that it reflects in the warp however.

Important distinction.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spetulhu wrote:

craftworld_uk wrote:
Well Genestealer Cults do go it alone until a tendril of the Hive Mind shows up. And it seems unlikely the Tyranids have a one hundred percent success rate in finding/reconnecting with every Patriarch out there.

Not to mention that Hive Fleets fight each other if they meet, the weaker party getting absorbed by the "winner" who just wasted all his resources on the battle. Genestealers descending from a different fleet than the one approaching might be harder to control, at least initially. Their natural response to an enemy contacting them would be fight or flight.

There is ONE hive fleet that seems to be fighting others.

Most hive fleets just merge.

Remember hive fleets don't really exist. It's just a clasification IoM uses to differentiate different blobs of nids floating about. A name mankind gives to try to quantify the unquantifiable. A name to give voice to their destruction.

Neat! Big fan of that description

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
No.

Once the Hive Mind is within range, the genestealer cult becomes controlled by the Hive Mind directly. They no longer have any free will, and being brain washed cultists they likely don't care about being absorbed into the hive fleet. Of course not all the genestealer cult will be eliminated. They'll have sent some of their purestrain genestealers ahead to keep spreading across the galaxy seeding new cults.

Do they become directly controlled? Do you know where i can find that in the fluff/have a source?

Not that i disbelieve you or anything, but i had a neat idea for a GS Cults character whose cult called the 'nids but they were defeated. The revelation that their glorious salvation was a swarm of ravenous aliens was apalling, so now he's sort of on the run from both the Imperium and the 'nids, starting Cults and then abandoning them/culling them when they start getting big enough to aattract the hive mind. Sort of like a Genestealer Suicide-Cult

This sounds like great and plausible fluff. Do it!

Shall do!

The other kickass idea someone else had that I'd like to work into it somehow is an Inquisitor deliberately infecting planets with GS Cults in order to draw the Tyranids into a trap

With a race constantly evolving I can imagine several genestealer making a collective mind.
Which if given enough time they could create a new hive mind to fight off or take over a hive mind. Or even blocking off the mental smell that lures in the hive.

With time and survival on the line a lot of things can happen. Maybe only the frontal cortex creates the lure for the hive. Genestealer a with to much self preservation removing this from their brains or using a chemical to block it.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
No.

Once the Hive Mind is within range, the genestealer cult becomes controlled by the Hive Mind directly. They no longer have any free will, and being brain washed cultists they likely don't care about being absorbed into the hive fleet. Of course not all the genestealer cult will be eliminated. They'll have sent some of their purestrain genestealers ahead to keep spreading across the galaxy seeding new cults.

Do they become directly controlled? Do you know where i can find that in the fluff/have a source?

Not that i disbelieve you or anything, but i had a neat idea for a GS Cults character whose cult called the 'nids but they were defeated. The revelation that their glorious salvation was a swarm of ravenous aliens was apalling, so now he's sort of on the run from both the Imperium and the 'nids, starting Cults and then abandoning them/culling them when they start getting big enough to aattract the hive mind. Sort of like a Genestealer Suicide-Cult

This sounds like great and plausible fluff. Do it!

Shall do!

The other kickass idea someone else had that I'd like to work into it somehow is an Inquisitor deliberately infecting planets with GS Cults in order to draw the Tyranids into a trap

I think that would make a lot more sense. As someone noted, the former cultist would not have any motivation for spreading cults at all (quite the contrary). Doing it to draw a hive fleet of Tyranids into a trap would be a really awesome (and totally grimdark) motivation on the other hand.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
No.

Once the Hive Mind is within range, the genestealer cult becomes controlled by the Hive Mind directly. They no longer have any free will, and being brain washed cultists they likely don't care about being absorbed into the hive fleet. Of course not all the genestealer cult will be eliminated. They'll have sent some of their purestrain genestealers ahead to keep spreading across the galaxy seeding new cults.

Do they become directly controlled? Do you know where i can find that in the fluff/have a source?

Not that i disbelieve you or anything, but i had a neat idea for a GS Cults character whose cult called the 'nids but they were defeated. The revelation that their glorious salvation was a swarm of ravenous aliens was apalling, so now he's sort of on the run from both the Imperium and the 'nids, starting Cults and then abandoning them/culling them when they start getting big enough to aattract the hive mind. Sort of like a Genestealer Suicide-Cult

This sounds like great and plausible fluff. Do it!

Shall do!

The other kickass idea someone else had that I'd like to work into it somehow is an Inquisitor deliberately infecting planets with GS Cults in order to draw the Tyranids into a trap

I think that would make a lot more sense. As someone noted, the former cultist would not have any motivation for spreading cults at all (quite the contrary). Doing it to draw a hive fleet of Tyranids into a trap would be a really awesome (and totally grimdark) motivation on the other hand.

It's not the cultists themselves that are spreading it. It's the Genestealers.

The human element of any GS cult is either Hypnotized, entirely unaware, or genetically bound to servitude of the patriarch.

A regular human could not feasibly leave and start a new cult without a genestealer to begin implanting new genetic material. At which point there is a patriarch, which means genetic binding, hypnotism, and completely unaware.

Love the Inquisitor sacrificing worlds to the Cult to draw a Hive Fleet into a trap and save countless more worlds. It would take centuries to come to fruition - quite the long game!

He'd probably be declared a traitor like Kryptman but he'd be righteous in the knowledge he had saved untold numbers more of the Emperor's citizens than he had condemned. Super grimdark stuff.

The problem is how Hive Fleets move. They attack wide regions of space. A Hive Fleet would devour the bait planet and every world in the same sub-sector. Or sector in the case of larger fleets.

And that's ignoring the effect of nearby genestealer beacons.