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JJ sure is an easy and convenient punching bag, isn't he?

Yeah, just like that Uwe Boll guy. Man, everyone's so unfair to those two just because they don't know what they are doing, put out mediocre films in franchises tha deserve better, and get paid obscene amounts of money for doing it. What a bum rap.

 Manchu wrote:
I think Easy E is spot-on. Kylo wishes he was Darth Vader. This is not just some personal theory. Rey figures this out in the movie and brings it up to him.

To be fair, though, she says that he doesn't think he'll ever be as strong as Darth Vader. This does not have to mean as powerful in the Dark Side
Rey could have only seen a glimpse of what is going on in Kylo's mind.

Speculation time: What if Kylo is trying to "Snape" Snoke? Meaning that he only killed Han to gain Snoke's full trust. Like Snape killed Dumbledore to gain Voldemort's trust.
If this is true, and Kylo is secretly working against Snoke, he could be afraid that he won't be strong enough to turn back to the light, as Vader did.

My point is that we only have what the filmmakers want to know and thus they can direct us to think A, when really B is happening
If Kylo just turns out to be a Vader wan-obi, I would be quite disappointed as that is just too one-dimensional.

-

 Alpharius wrote:



JJ sure is an easy and convenient punching bag, isn't he?

Well, he is a hack
I find him to be all style and no substance, and his style is the safe, polished variety that hollywood likes. I'm not really a fan.
I mean, he's not a terrible director. If he displayed Ed Wood levels of incompetence then at least that would be memorable. I find him worse than terrible, I find him bland. I have trouble remembering his work, other than a sense of boredom.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Yeah, just like that Uwe Boll guy. Man, everyone's so unfair to those two just because they don't know what they are doing, put out mediocre films in franchises tha deserve better, and get paid obscene amounts of money for doing it. What a bum rap.

Ridiculous comparison alert!!!

Set Hyperbole to Maximum!!!!1`~!!1!!

Uwe Boll to JJA?

I mean, I know part of your shtick is to be ridiculous, but really, tone it down a bit!

Yeah, Uwe Boll is interesting to watch, in a train wreck sort of way. JJA lacks such a trait.

Galef, your points remind me that, we're talking about stories that haven't been told yet. It's not like the whole thing is already laid out, despite what the producers might want us to imagine. All of this is subject to change, for all kinds of reasons. And the changes that have yet to be made now, once they make it to the screen, might well also change the way we think about what we've already seen. It could go all sorts of ways, for better or worse. But just looking at TFA, the way Kylo is characterized in that picture, he has a deep and obvious yearning to be like Darth Vader. And he also, just as obviously, has trouble living up to that image.

 Alpharius wrote:



JJ sure is an easy and convenient punching bag, isn't he?

STRETCH OUT WITH YOUR UNREASONABLE EXPECTATIONS...

IMO, there's no director alive capable of pleasing everyone (meaning both highly discrete audience segments AND the studio) with these films. Consider the wide age range involved, and the different interests of the obsessive superfans compared to more numerous casual SW fans.

Lucas' prequel movies were highly original, but child-oriented by his own admission. Abrams' movie was nostalgia-fueled and aimed at casual adult fans of the original trilogy with kids. Both efforts ended up being divisive to a degree, especially among superfans. And I'm sure TLJ will alienate some group.

There are reasons why the hottest names in Hollywood aren't signing on for these things. There's a lot to triangulate and (importantly) not the greatest degree of creative freedom with which to do it. Oh yeah, meanwhile each film has billion-dollar box office expectations.

 Alpharius wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Yeah, just like that Uwe Boll guy. Man, everyone's so unfair to those two just because they don't know what they are doing, put out mediocre films in franchises tha deserve better, and get paid obscene amounts of money for doing it. What a bum rap.

Ridiculous comparison alert!!!

Set Hyperbole to Maximum!!!!1`~!!1!!

Uwe Boll to JJA?

I mean, I know part of your shtick is to be ridiculous, but really, tone it down a bit!

Eh. I was going to go with Zach Snyder, but didn't want to get into it with Gorgon. And I honestly think Zach Snyder has more creativity and vision than JJ, even if it results in films every bit as mediocre. At least we can all agree on Uwe Boll.

While I am using hyperbole, it's not as much as you might think. I really can't understand how people watch STID, ST, TFA, or even Super 8 and see anything other than the film equivalent of an 8 year old trying to draw Garfield and pass it off in an art gallery. It's so glaring. When these threads go round, I feel like I'm trying to explain what's wrong with 70's interior decorating to a colorblind man.

Wo you just dissed Super 8.

 gorgon wrote:


STRETCH OUT WITH YOUR UNREASONABLE EXPECTATIONS...

IMO, there's no director alive capable of pleasing everyone (meaning both highly discrete audience segments AND the studio) with these films. Consider the wide age range involved, and the different interests of the obsessive superfans compared to more numerous casual SW fans.

Lucas' prequel movies were highly original, but child-oriented by his own admission.

Eh? No they weren't. He claimed they were child-oriented only after they were scorned for being childish and having infantile (and profoundly unsuccessful) attempts at depicting complex political chicanery and some abomination he laughingly thought was 'romance.' He even widened that claim to the original trilogy too. You know, because of the child oriented appeal of incest, genocide and dismemberment.

No idea why you'd think they were even vaguely original, let alone highly. Even ignoring all the better films he blatantly ripped scenes and concepts from (samurai dramas, westerns and Ben Hur chariot race included), he goes on at length in 'making of' bits about how the prequels constantly deliberately echo the originals.

Voss wrote:


Eh? No they weren't. He claimed they were child-oriented only after they were scorned for being childish and having infantile (and profoundly unsuccessful) attempts at depicting complex political chicanery and some abomination he laughingly thought was 'romance.' He even widened that claim to the original trilogy too. You know, because of the child oriented appeal of incest, genocide and dismemberment.

This. Lucas struggles to understand the distinction between mature and juvenile (a trait I find very common among Star Wars fans, unironically). I don't think he ever intended the prequels to be kiddie films. Family oriented yes, but not kiddie. He only brought that up later after Episode II came out in a really vein and transparent attempt to hand wave away the problems in Episode I.

This is a guy who kept reediting his hit films for asinine and stupid reasons. I don't know why anyone actually puts much stock in what he himself says, given that for every explanation he gives, there's a contradictory one lying around somewhere XD


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 Frazzled wrote:
Wo you just dissed Super 8.

Also this.

I get it. Some people are angry that Star Trek and Star Wars reboots weren't what they wanted, but how can anyone think Super 8 was bad?

Super eight was good for the first half, when it was just about kids making a movie. Everything with the alien was terrible. You can't have ET and Jaws be the same creature. The kids wouldn't have an Iron Giant ending with something they earlier saw snacking on their neighbors. And it's not like the psychic alien didn't know any better.

Agree with Bob - the ending seems like it was from a different movie.

That film felt...confused.

 Alpharius wrote:
Agree with Bob - the ending seems like it was from a different movie.

That film felt...confused.

That's a good way to describe all of his films, I feel.

Kylo cannot be playing Snoke for a long con- that is far, far beyond being too intellectual for the modern incarnation of this franchise, which if it were a book, Episode 7 might easily have been written off as one of the more fanboy-esque parts of the EU that people demonize.

The best we can hope for is a Kylo/Rey role reversal, as a emotionally lost Rey gets tortured/turned by Snoke (seemingly evidenced by the trailer) and Kylo is faced with the reality and horror of his psychosis and finally gets snapped out of it, possibly by Leia's death right in front of him. I'm not sure a teamup will happen between the two meeting in the middle, but I guess that's possible.

Or maybe that bit of the trailer isn't what it seems, and one of the two meets up with Ahsoka?

*I know that's exceedingly unlikely...

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Yeah, just like that Uwe Boll guy. Man, everyone's so unfair to those two just because they don't know what they are doing, put out mediocre films in franchises tha deserve better, and get paid obscene amounts of money for doing it. What a bum rap.

Ridiculous comparison alert!!!

Set Hyperbole to Maximum!!!!1`~!!1!!

Uwe Boll to JJA?

I mean, I know part of your shtick is to be ridiculous, but really, tone it down a bit!

Eh. I was going to go with Zach Snyder, but didn't want to get into it with Gorgon. And I honestly think Zach Snyder has more creativity and vision than JJ, even if it results in films every bit as mediocre. At least we can all agree on Uwe Boll.

I guess it's too late if you're going to troll me like that? If you read my last post on the subject and genuinely came away with that opinion, it's only because you're hating on the man so much that everyone with a more moderate view than yours looks the same.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/741543/9644483.page#9644483

I didn't even like 300, fer chrissakes.


Regarding JJA, it's probably important to mention that the 'much-hated' TFA scored an 'A' Cinemascore, was widely acclaimed by critics, and absolutely crushed it at the box office.

So I can guarantee you that the professionals who work in the industry look at him as a good and highly successful director, no matter what some SW dorks think.

Heh. I actually enjoyed 300.

And you're right, I shouldn't have tagged you. Snyder has strengths that Abrams lacks, so again, that's why I went with someone else.

TFA is experiencing the STID effect right now. Huge box office, decent reviews, and then a year or two later people forget why they loved the film. Time to think is JJ Abrams' greatest enemy.


Do you honestly think he did the franchise a favor with his New Order/Galactic Republic/Resistance shuffle that eroded the legacy of the original series, undermined the stakes of the new trilogy, and left future directors to pick up the pieces?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
PS, I haven't been a SW dork since the prequels.

TBH I don't think he chose those background elements. My impression is, the director is only one and not even the most important member of the executive team on these films.

I'm calling it now: One or even both of the following shots in the trailer are "dream" sequences:
-When Snoke is torturing Rey
-When Kylo extends his hand to (possibly) Rey

I really think these are in the trailer to mislead up into thinking tons of different outcomes when really all that is going on is Rey having dreams/nightmares/visions like the force-flashback of TFA.

 Manchu wrote:
TBH I don't think he chose those background elements. My impression is, the director is only one and not even the most important member of the executive team on these films.

I was under the impression that JJ had the script reworked until he was satisfied with it. Besides, the errors in scale, dismissal of consequences, and all that, can be found in his ST films, so they weren't exactly forced on him. They are his hallmarks. Still, I would have expected someone at Disney to have the vision and authority to prevent such missteps. Say what you will about Marvel movies, but I can't imagine Feige ever allowing one of their directors (or production teams) to mishandle the long term concerns of the franchise so much. Well, at least not after the housecleaning following the mess that was Age of Ultron.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:


I was under the impression that JJ had the script reworked until he was satisfied with it. Besides, the errors in scale, dismissal of consequences, and all that, can be found in his ST films, so they weren't exactly forced on him. They are his hallmarks.

Honestly, and I've said this before, those aren't hallmarks of JJ's work but of modern film (and television for that matter) in general. Hell they're hallmarks of Star Trek and Star Wars going back to the beginning.

Anyone else remember when the Grand Army of the Republic was only 2 million strong? 2 million clone bros defending the whole galaxy And how bout that time the solution to the Enterprises weekly crisis was turning the computer off and on again, a solution no on ever seemed to consider ever again

And is anyone at Disney upset over how TFA and R1 performed?

 Alpharius wrote:
And is anyone at Disney upset over how TFA and R1 performed?

Doubt it. Gorgon I think it was nailed it earlier. There's nothing really wrong with the direction of the franchise financially or conceptually. It was doomed to upset some large chunk of fans no matter what direction was chosen, but I don't think the people upset with how the films are going are indicative of a general audience (they're still making Transformers movies holy gak...) or even of a more critical one given both films did well among people who were paid to watch them and write about it.

 LordofHats wrote:
those aren't hallmarks of JJ's work but of modern film (and television for that matter) in general

Very insightful point.

Also I don't think the movie really suffers from the lack of clarity around the background politics. Weirdly enough, exactly what the Resistance and First Order are and want don't figure heavily into the plot. Good guys fight bad guys. TFA is exciting but it isn't complicated. The SW IP, however, is often (needlessly) complicated. I suspect those IP level decisions ("what is the philosophy of Supreme Leader Snoke?") are out of the director's hands completely.

 Alpharius wrote:
And is anyone at Disney upset over how TFA and R1 performed?

If that's what matters, then I am sure you will enjoy Pirates and Transformers quality Star Wars films. Rest assured, when there is nothing left to hope for from this franchise, I'll stop agitating for it to try to improve.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 LordofHats wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:


I was under the impression that JJ had the script reworked until he was satisfied with it. Besides, the errors in scale, dismissal of consequences, and all that, can be found in his ST films, so they weren't exactly forced on him. They are his hallmarks.

Honestly, and I've said this before, those aren't hallmarks of JJ's work but of modern film (and television for that matter) in general. Hell they're hallmarks of Star Trek and Star Wars going back to the beginning.

Anyone else remember when the Grand Army of the Republic was only 2 million strong? 2 million clone bros defending the whole galaxy And how bout that time the solution to the Enterprises weekly crisis was turning the computer off and on again, a solution no on ever seemed to consider ever again

Going go back to the beginning is going to the original trilogy. If you can't tell the difference in quality between the first two (and parts of three...) and all the stuff that's come later, then there's no point in worrying what anyone else has to say. You'll be satisfied with what you get.

If you think there wasn't a huge issue with the million clones crap at the time, you weren't paying attention. Karen Traviss blogged about strangling people over it and everything. I mean, are you seriously arguing TFA being stupid is okay because the most hated prequels of all time were stupid?

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
And is anyone at Disney upset over how TFA and R1 performed?

If that's what matters, then I am sure you will enjoy Pirates and Transformers quality Star Wars films. Rest assured, when there is nothing left to hope for from this franchise, I'll stop agitating for it to try to improve.

I don't think I said that is "all that matters", but if it is OK with "Them" then you're probably agitating in the wrong areas, and might need to take your Teacup Tempest directly to the source!

Yeah - Disney is definitely aiming at a broad audience but also wants to impress the narrower, more vocal audience that cares about stuff like characterization and plot.

Rogue One and TFA.

Are they better than the Prequels? Yes. Absolutely they are. Rogue One is a prequel done right.

Can they possibly compete with my love for the original trilogy? Of course not. I'm 37 now, and was 35 and 36 when I saw TFA and Rogue One respectively. I'm not a young, impressionable kid being taken on his first sci--fi flight of heroism and fancy.

The same goes for any remake of anything that formed a pillar of my childhood. He-Man, Transformers, Thundercars, M.A.S.K. All firm favourites. But guess what? When I go back and watch them now, they're surprisingly rubbish. Especially .M.A.S.K. Because I'm not a kid anymore. My tastes have developed.

Still love those shows, but can't defend them as actually being objectively good or well made.