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The good:

Visuals are awesome, especially the light speed crash, the salt planet.
Rey and Kylo get character development
Poe is moving into a Han role. Also, looks like poe and daisy may end up together with Finn and Rose as couple #2.
Yoda (even if his head looked funny)
We got Nudity in a star wars movie! Lots of nipples! LOL

The Bad 2 things that can fix this:
1.) Too much comedy. Disney is doing this to the Marvel Comic universe, they did it to Pirates of the Caribbean, now SW. I get it, the mouse likes to make kids laugh, but you can use a bit of subtlety.
I don't need every epic/dramatic moment to be undercut with a quip or one liner. Your audience is smart, let them get the alluding humor.
The casino scene did seem filler, but I am fairly certain its being used to setup the next 10,11,12 films. Its going to be the new Tatooine of sorts. (see the end scene with the boy who uses the force to grab the broom)

2.) Give us a decent villian for SITH's sake. Kylo is the "villian" but he is too emo. I get they are going for the conflicted character, and he did grow on me this movie, but he is in no way frightening.
Phasma- psshhh, her and Boba need to have a drinking match on who got the short end of the stick (pun intended) worse.
Hux-LOL where to start, he is wormy, stupid, weak, crys. How the feth did this guy become a general. At least the guy in the dreadnougt could recognize Poe's tactics. Hell, Piet was better than this guy.
Snoke- an empty shell. He is not the emperor, the emperor had backstory (even in the original trilogy) we get references to him killing off the senate, training vadar etc...
Snoke is like Dooku or grevious or even maul (but not as cool as any of these) in that he is there to fill the villian slot.

Things to fix:
Honestly, they should have just picked a genius admiral like tarkin/thrawn and ran him as the Hux role the entire trilogy.

They should have had Rey join Kylo. She is so tempted by the darkside on the island, arguably even more so than luke and she just resist. It would have been better to have her join Kylo, they take out snoke and then create the new "grey order".
Then she is pulled back to the light in ep 9. This could have been the dark moment at the end like in ESB where Kylo extends his hand and she joins. . No way are reys parents just junkers. Luke mentions how strong she is in the force. Kylo lies to everyone to get what he wants.

Benico del Torro should have been Lando.

Disney is afraid to take dramatic dark moments and make them end with the bad guys winning.

I don’t really agree that Kylo Ren is Emo. Rather, he’s a deeply conflicted individual, and a loose cannon.

From his point of view, everyone he’s ever known has simply tried to manipulate and control him for their own ends.

I mean, we’ve all been angst riddled teenagers, let alone with a strong connection to a power we can’t explain, and a Grandad either lauded or hated. We also weren’t the child of two living legends, who ultimately palmed us off onto our Uncle, who essentially demanded we follow his religion.

Then of course along comes Snoke. Likely with a ‘I can help you reach your potential” blah blah blah, who persuades you to do stuff you won’t necessarily agree with or enjoy. And then, at the first hint of failure, taunts and belittles you.

That’s not Emo. That’s being a genuine emotional wreck. All he’s ever known is pretty much abuse.

 Dynas wrote:
The good:

Visuals are awesome, especially the light speed crash,

This scene was ruined for me by the mass of people in the theatre clapping and whooping and talking/exclaiming loudly as it happened, sucking all the cool factor out of it and the intentionally muted audio of the immediate aftermath.

In fact, the audience and people clapping and doing dumb crap like that when main characters and whatnot showed up ruined a lot of it

That's kind of rude XD

Thats a big reason why I normally dont go see movies in actual theatres, the general public makes really poor movie companions. Crappy uncomfortable seats, $13 ticket prices, and concessions that cost 5x what they do anywhere else seals the deal.

#thisiswhypeoplepiratestuff

I think this was the first opening night show at a normal theatre ive been to since...the first Hobbit movie? Its been a while, will probably be a long while before I try it again.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I don’t really agree that Kylo Ren is Emo. Rather, he’s a deeply conflicted individual, and a loose cannon.

From his point of view, everyone he’s ever known has simply tried to manipulate and control him for their own ends.

I mean, we’ve all been angst riddled teenagers, let alone with a strong connection to a power we can’t explain, and a Grandad either lauded or hated. We also weren’t the child of two living legends, who ultimately palmed us off onto our Uncle, who essentially demanded we follow his religion.

Then of course along comes Snoke. Likely with a ‘I can help you reach your potential” blah blah blah, who persuades you to do stuff you won’t necessarily agree with or enjoy. And then, at the first hint of failure, taunts and belittles you.

That’s not Emo. That’s being a genuine emotional wreck. All he’s ever known is pretty much abuse.

No, that's an emo teen's prettified conception of what abuse is. And pretty much every genre-unsavvy Harry Potter-verse Slytherin character. Not quite perfect life means 'darkness' and 'sadness' but mostly any excuse to seize power.
It's probably the least satisfying way to develop a villain or anti-hero- they just come off as a spoiled brat.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Dynas wrote:
The good:

Visuals are awesome, especially the light speed crash,

This scene was ruined for me by the mass of people in the theatre clapping and whooping and talking/exclaiming loudly as it happened, sucking all the cool factor out of it and the intentionally muted audio of the immediate aftermath.

In fact, the audience and people clapping and doing dumb crap like that when main characters and whatnot showed up ruined a lot of it

I agree it's annoying. Fortunately, people in where I live are far too reserved for that...I got to enjoy the scene in relative silence.

Must be an American thing, here the the UK making noise during a film is not considered socially acceptable. (with the exception of laughter)

Wasn't that whole scene designed to get cheers?

There were some cheers at points from the audience I saw it with, and I thought that was awesome

Loved Chewbacca's little "sidekicks". And I'm liking the overall story arc the more I think about it.

Do we know if Carrie Fisher finished filming of the third movie? The dedication to her at the end was great... kind of cool to see her passing on leadership of the rebellion in the movie somewhat subtly, too.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Tamereth wrote:
Wow totally don't understand the hate for this film. It was awesome.

People seem to forgot that the original trilogy is pretty light hearted, c3po and r2-d2 are comic relief most of the time.

"lighthearted" does not mean "badly build".
Also, the originals have light-hearted moments but the mood of the single scenes is appropriate. Luke does not start to quip after he sees his uncle charred body.
In TFA, Poe says the "who talks first?" line on the scene of a massacre. The tone is completely off.
Also, in a typical J.J. and Marvel style, this kind of lines are very self-aware and meta. If these are family movies, they should focus on keep the kids within the movie, and not wink to older people almost to say "still fan of an old space opera, what a nerd AMRITE?".

They look clever but they are horrible. They break an illusion. And I reiterate this - these are "meta" movies. The target is not kids, the target is the older audience. If you target something to kids, you don't make the movie self-aware that is a movie. Is horribly cynical.

Very much this.

What I also struggle with is the need to turn these sequels in to a pastiche of the original trilogy. I understand the need for a new young cast for a new generation of fans and I have zero problems with that, but why make these new characters go through near identical events from the original movies?
Does the nostalgia crowd really want to see all the classic scenes redone? Is recognition so important?

It's not new, Moore's re-imagination of Battle star Galatica started this trend, Abrams did it with the new Star Trek movies, a number of Hollywood remakes of classic movies ahve done it as well, and I think 2016 Ghostbusters' director Feig said it best: "To tell a story you've seen before, but in a way you haven't seen it".

Also I don't like the "bad ending" for the old cast. Han and Leia break up, their son turns to the dark side and kills his father, Luke becoming a bitter old hermit after his academy failed. And why? To sympathize with the fans and show that even their childhood heroes' failed to achieve their hopes and dreams just like you? I much prefer the send off in to the sunset in RoTJ. The cynic in me thinks it was simply done for shock value and to facilitate the 'Luke is the new Yoda' arc and a new Skywalker Vader.

Saw it today and quite liked it. There are aspects of the film that are fresh and exciting and probably the movie's biggest accomplishment over Ep7 is establishing the post RotJ world as a real place worth exploring.

It's got some significant pacing issues that are going to make it hard to rewatch. Finn's stuff is a big drag on the plot even if I like what the content is trying to add. It feels well suited to a novel in a lot of ways.

Rey and Kylo's arc is the best part of the film, but the movie continues for quite a while after it ends. The extra content is largely worthwhile, even great, but I can't help but feel like my investment had already paid off by the time the end really gets going.

I'm overall quite happy with the film but in some ways it feels like its really setting the stage for a truly spectacular finale. Time will tell, but overall I need to see how I feel about it on rewatch to know for sure where it ranks in my mind. Right now its not the top for sure, but definitely in the top half.

 RiTides wrote:
There were some cheers at points from the audience I saw it with, and I thought that was awesome

Loved Chewbacca's little "sidekicks". And I'm liking the overall story arc the more I think about it.

Do we know if Carrie Fisher finished filming of the third movie? The dedication to her at the end was great... kind of cool to see her passing on leadership of the rebellion in the movie somewhat subtly, too.

Episode IV begins filming this coming June, so no.

If things don't go bad where is the story? Stories do require conflict. The window of opportunity passed years ago as the trio aged and unless Disney opted to deploy CGI/makeup to de-age them they are basically forced to tell a story of an aging resistance.

I know people don't like it and I personally prefer the Thrawn trilogy (mostly) to what's on film, but when Lucas opted to do prequels instead of sequels back in 1999 the odds of anything like that being done were reduced to nil.

I'll bet we get a Thrawn movie sooner or later. The character is one of the best parts of Rebels and well received by fans as far as I can tell. I think it's just a matter of time.

 Antario wrote:

Also I don't like the "bad ending" for the old cast. Han and Leia break up, their son turns to the dark side and kills his father, Luke becoming a bitter old hermit after his academy failed. And why? To sympathize with the fans and show that even their childhood heroes' failed to achieve their hopes and dreams just like you? I much prefer the send off in to the sunset in RoTJ. The cynic in me thinks it was simply done for shock value and to facilitate the 'Luke is the new Yoda' arc and a new Skywalker Vader.

Pretty much. Is a continuation of that cynical point of view. You cannot have a simple story with an hero journey and the heroes happy thereafter. Is "uncool". They are essentially trying to transform Lord of the Rings in A Song of Ice and Fire.
Lotr:

ASoIaF:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 trexmeyer wrote:
If things don't go bad where is the story? Stories do require conflict.

Conflict must be well build. When you get to the point that the optimistic hero of the last trilogy, the guy who redeemed his father, is considering to murder his relative in his sleep, is not good writing.
When you have a guy that is essentially a fugitive Waffen-SS* becoming an entertaining quipping tagalong 10 minutes in the movie, is seriously time to stop.
There is no conflict anymore, only contrivance for the sake of continuing a franchise.
* I find amusing you talk about conflict. Finn should have been a walking conflict machine. The character wrote himself. What we had
HEY DO YOU HAVE A BOYFRIEND

One thing I particularly enjoyed was the portrayal of Snoke's power over Kylo. It's something hinted at greatly in Vader's broken attitude in RotJ, but Palpatine's "something something Dark Side" speeches didn't really synch up with Vader's "inevitability" with Luke.

With Snoke we get a phenomenal depiction of what kind of power a Sith Lord really wields. It's not in throwing people around like a rag doll or throwing lightning, but to be inside their mind and know their every intention. It's a shame that was never depicted in the prequels display of Anakin's fall, because its something that's been nagging me since I rewatched the original trilogy prior to Ep7.

Also, Luke's greatest failure here is acting on a Force vision. By now it should be abundantly clear that the Force is just a massive troll and any glimpses of the future it offers are just to drive you to make that future happen.

Saw it. Someone made me go with them.

Did not enjoy it. Kylo Ren is just... impenetrable as a bad guy. I cannot understand his motivations. Or the First Order, for that matter.

Waste of time. Leaving it there.

 Antario wrote:

Also I don't like the "bad ending" for the old cast. Han and Leia break up, their son turns to the dark side and kills his father, Luke becoming a bitter old hermit after his academy failed.

I can sympathize with the former, but not for Luke. By the original trilogy's logic and Luke's actions, he was clearly set to get a bad end. It's completely downplayed in the Ewok Party at the end of RotJ, but really...
Luke's training went poorly. 'Can't' was his favorite word, and most of his tests, he failed (the cave and x-wing, particularly), and then he just abandoned his training, recklessly. Sure, by the audience's morality (and the film's narrative), going to save your friends is the correct choice, but by the Jedi's, it simply isn't. This is further reinforced in the prequels, where his 'attachments' to his friends would clearly be wrong according to Jedi philosophy.

Remember, too, the 'forever will it dominate your destiny' line? Well, he slide down that slope several times (force choke, anyone?), both in Empire and Return (It doesn't seem to be a thing at all in the original film). But particularly at the climax of his confrontation with the Emperor- he was invited to give into hate and strike the Emperor down. And he did, willingly. That he was stopped by someone else makes no never mind- he took that leap out into the dark side, embracing the anger, hate and fear. So his destiny is dominated by it, forevermore- the setting's logic and apparently the very nature of the force doesn't give him an out once he crosses the line.

But frankly, as a teacher, there is no reason to expect Luke to do anything but fail. Going back to his own training- he didn't trust it, didn't finish it, and really knew or understood very little about it. He was simply the only option (which seems ridiculous in a galaxy-wide population, but that's the situation we're presented with). It's also a narratively fitting echo that his attempts at teaching would go as badly or worse than Kenobi's. The half-trained student of a failed teacher (and son of the failed student) isn't going to be much of one, especially in the more esoteric and philosophical areas which seemed so important to the Jedi Order, which he has no reason at all to know or understand.

WTF did I just watch?

It ended with a Target commercial ... but everything before that was a confusing mess.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Saw it. Someone made me go with them.

Did not enjoy it. Kylo Ren is just... impenetrable as a bad guy. I cannot understand his motivations.

I didn't see the movie yet, but from the first one I think that Ren's lack of clear consistent motivation is intentionnal. He's a tween. A selfish, selfimportant, power hungry tween who as yet to find his true place in this world. He wants to be adored and admired because he sees himself as a wonder of the world, but at the same time he struggles to deal with that pressure. He wants to emulate his grand-father, but he falls short on pretty much every account (which hurt is self-estime). Basically, he's a highly functionnal mild sociopath with a complex of superiority that's associated with a complex of inferiority. he's a "try hard" and fundamentally selfish person. That's why he's no longer a Jedi, he's too self centered, why he goes berzerk once in a while and sometime feels like a little bitch at other times. In that regard he is pretty much the opposite of Darth Vader, but rather similar to Anakin before his fall. The main theme of hte current trilogy seems to be on finding one's place in the world and learning how to live with oneself. I guess that the best way to understand Ren, you must channel your inner angsty teen. I personaly think that they managed to pull a better version of this archetype with Ren than with Anakin in the prequels. While I am not a huge fan of this type of villain as they lack menace, I think it's wise they chose this route. If they had not, the new villain would have been really not much more than a lesser version of Darth Vader whose imprint on Star Wars and pop culture in general is so large that it's pretty much impossible to top it. Where they missed their shot is that a stone cold villain black knight" could have been added in the form of an underling, which would have been Phasma in Episode VII, but they completly dropped the ball on that point. Of course, considering the opinion of most people on this board, my expectation of seeing the new trilogy gaining some steam are pretty low.

Two take aways from last night.

First, Romanian cinema culture apparently doesn't put much stock in things like turning your cell phone off, not holding loud conversations, and generally not being rude to everyone around you.

Secondly, my god I haven't been as disappointed by a Star Wars film since 2002.

epronovost wrote:
In that regard he is pretty much the opposite of Darth Vader, but rather similar to Anakin before his fall.

... and that's where the character goes off the rails. Feels like the product of too many focus groups, not someone recognizable as a person.

Darth Vader was evil, but you could understand how he got there. Kylo Ren is like a page ripped from a reality show and put in charge of a fleet.

Can't suspend disbelief powerfully enough to accept him or the role he plays in the movie.

Kylo Ren is a great character. He's the strongest character in the Disney SW movies. I guess that's not saying a lot, however.

No, in TFA we had the mystery of Kylo. Now he just seems even more of a brat then Anakin did.

He is the character that makes the least bit of sense to me at this point, asides maybe from General Hux, who seems so utterly incompetent that I can't help but wonder why he's anything but a garbage chute cleaner.

Read through a couple of pages to make sure we're doing spoilers without tags, so, ok, cool.

So, I got back a minute ago from seeing it.

That movie held my undivided attention for roughly 135 minutes solid. Endlessly entertaining, inventive and gorgeous set pieces - certainly not The Empire Strikes Back Again to TFA's A New Hope 2: Hope Harder - with some simply fantastic performances. Wonderful stuff. Couldn't've asked for anything more.

And then they took my favourite Star Wars character and gave him a death second only in worthlessness to Padme "She's lost the will to live!" Amidala.

The Infinity War trailer that played before the movie started was better.

Feth this movie.

 Tamereth wrote:
Wow totally don't understand the hate for this film.

My fav SW character is Luke, so I understand it completely.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Read through a couple of pages to make sure we're doing spoilers without tags, so, ok, cool.

So, I got back a minute ago from seeing it.

That movie held my undivided attention for roughly 135 minutes solid. Endlessly entertaining, inventive and gorgeous set pieces - certainly not The Empire Strikes Back Again to TFA's A New Hope 2: Hope Harder - with some simply fantastic performances. Wonderful stuff. Couldn't've asked for anything more.

And then they took my favourite Star Wars character and gave him a death second only in worthlessness to Padme "She's lost the will to live!" Amidala.

The Infinity War trailer that played before the movie started was better.

Feth this movie.

 Tamereth wrote:
Wow totally don't understand the hate for this film.

My fav SW character is Luke, so I understand it completely.

In regards to Luke... I think that was a throwback to some the EU stuff. There had been instances where Jedi had given themselves so completely to the force, in order to perform incredibly amazing feats, that they died, and were absorbed by the force, as Luke was here. Projecting himself across the galaxy in such a manner, I could see it. Now, whether I thought it was "worth it" is another question.

Ok... great!

But I don't care.

They took my fav character and killed him in such a pathetic way. Nothing will change that.

This is more disappointing than Revenge of the Sith.

I feel sad for most, I only pay about $7 for a ticket, $7 more for a big thing of popcorn and a soda with free refills all night.

I didn't mind Lukes death. He saw that his sister was in danger, and the Resistance was about to be wiped out. He gave himself over to the Force to do something incredibly powerful which saved them, and at the same time had a bit of satisfaction tricking his betrayer as well as robbing him of the satisfaction of killing him himself.

I look forward to crotchety force ghost Luke guiding Rey.