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2017/12/16 08:37:20
Subject: The Last Jedi - Movie Discussion - WARNING - Possible Spoilers Within!
RiTides wrote: There were some cheers at points from the audience I saw it with, and I thought that was awesome
Loved Chewbacca's little "sidekicks". And I'm liking the overall story arc the more I think about it.
Do we know if Carrie Fisher finished filming of the third movie? The dedication to her at the end was great... kind of cool to see her passing on leadership of the rebellion in the movie somewhat subtly, too.
Her family have agreed to facial mapping, so Leia will return, at least in some capacity.
I know people fret about uncanny valley, but that technology is improving all the time. At the moment, I feel it suits older faces better than youthful ones. Compare the ‘kinda weirded our’ levels between Tarkin and Leia In Rogue One. It felt like the technology used just couldn’t quite do smooth skin, but had an easier time convincing with Tarkin’s ‘very much lived in’ skin,
Automatically Appended Next Post:
-Loki- wrote: I didn't mind Lukes death. He saw that his sister was in danger, and the Resistance was about to be wiped out. He gave himself over to the Force to do something incredibly powerful which saved them, and at the same time had a bit of satisfaction tricking his betrayer as well as robbing him of the satisfaction of killing him himself.
I look forward to crotchety force ghost Luke guiding Rey.
Pretty much this.
What I’m most excited about is that I can’t really predict how Episode IX is going to go. The Resistance is all but gone, just the handful left on the Falcon at the end, seemingly abandoned by their would-be allies in the Outer Rim.
Could we be looking at a more significant time jump? Perhaps a number of years, as Rey and Leia try to rally forces to their cause?
With Space Saville ded, and a couple of significant blows against the First Order (Super Ship and a Dreadnought), they’ve shown that the First Order can be defied.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/16 08:41:18
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
Also Yoda showed force ghosts can interact physically. Luke could still contribute to physically beating Ben. I think they ghosted him to give his character a farewell in case Hamill dies before they were done with XI.
2017/12/16 09:39:38
Subject: The Last Jedi - Movie Discussion - WARNING - Possible Spoilers Within!
Tamereth wrote: Ray's parents being nobodies is a good thing.
Everybody wants to be a Jedi, but then we find out lukes only going to be one because his father was. Then we find out his father is darth Vader, then we find out his father was an immaculate conception of the force.
Now we're back to anybody can be force sensitive, you don't have to be a bloody godly skywalker.
I'm not saying the film is flawless by any means. Leia's Superman impression in space wasn't done well. And finn's story does feel a bit bloaty. Like they wrote the first draft then realized they needed something for him to do other than be in a coma.
I also would have liked a bit of background for snoke, but is it really needed. He's an evil powerful sith lord. End of.
Seconded (thirded?) on Rey. One thing which I disliked in previous Star Wars trilogies is how inbred the universe became. It started with Darth Vader being revealed as Luke's father - ooh! - followed with Leia and Luke being sisters - okay? - and was downhill from there. Now we have a main character who is not related to Skywalkers in any way, didn't fight alongside Yoda in Clone Wars or wasn't cloned from Boba Fett. This is what I was hoping for and was groaning at all other possibilities.
Is Snoke really Sith Lord? They haven't been explicit about it.
Tamereth wrote: Wow totally don't understand the hate for this film. It was awesome.
People seem to forgot that the original trilogy is pretty light hearted, c3po and r2-d2 are comic relief most of the time.
"lighthearted" does not mean "badly build".
Also, the originals have light-hearted moments but the mood of the single scenes is appropriate. Luke does not start to quip after he sees his uncle charred body.
In TFA, Poe says the "who talks first?" line on the scene of a massacre. The tone is completely off.
Also, in a typical J.J. and Marvel style, this kind of lines are very self-aware and meta. If these are family movies, they should focus on keep the kids within the movie, and not wink to older people almost to say "still fan of an old space opera, what a nerd AMRITE?".
They look clever but they are horrible. They break an illusion. And I reiterate this - these are "meta" movies. The target is not kids, the target is the older audience. If you target something to kids, you don't make the movie self-aware that is a movie. Is horribly cynical.
I agree that scene was cringe-worthy. I think it is Whedon's fault, he began the trend of light-hearted quipping on seemingly awful situations, and now it is out of control. It bothered me in latest Thor as well, though it was a decent movie otherwise.
However otherwise, I liked how Dameron was written in the movie. It was made explicitly clear that his hot-headedness is not necessarily always a positive asset.
Mr Vetock, give back my Multi-tracker!
2017/12/16 09:54:52
Subject: The Last Jedi - Movie Discussion - WARNING - Possible Spoilers Within!
Indeed. We see Poe and Finn both grow through failure of their usual approach.
Particularly Poe, given the barely salvaged disaster that was the attack on the The Dreadnought. Yes he ultimately saved the hour, but at a high cost. Later, he’s so blinded by Soloesque heroics, he doesn’t even stop to consider there’s another plan playing out.
I wonder if they kept the plan hush hush for fear it was a spy in their midst doing the tracking?
Also, have gathered my thoughts on the ‘tracking through hyperspace’ thing. Particularly in the canonical ‘Tarkin’ novel, they couldn’t track through hyperspace. Instead, they could track you once you’d come out of hyperspace.
This explains why the Deathstar took a while to arrive in orbit of Yavin - they couldn’t actively track the Falcon whilst in transit, only where it eventually ended up. And that’s what we see in all other examples, barring Obi-Wan tracking Jango Fett. But even then that could be explained by a much shorter jump, with a faster ship, and of course Jedi know-wots.
Why not have another fleet close the jaws on the Resistance? Arrogance. They knew they weren’t going anywhere any time soon, and Hux was taking pleasure in just chipping away at them, increasing their desperation. The bad guys are powerful, but nobody ever said they were smart
Really looking forward to seeing this again!
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
At a ridiculously low cost, you mean. A handful of bombers, for a multi-kilometer-long space battleship? Hell yes you make that trade, every time. Poe was 100% correct in his actions, the resistance leadership is a bunch of idiots for not repeating it (or being unable to, because they built a big capital ship instead of a few thousand more bombers). But apparently we're supposed to be so sad over the tragic loss of the brave soldiers that we accept a military force that is paralyzed by fear of losses and worthless in a fight.
(It does, of course, raise the question of why anyone bothers with capital ships at all, if a single bomber breaking through the fighter screen is instant death.)
The bad guys are powerful, but nobody ever said they were smart
And that's a problem. When your plot only succeeds because your villains are hopeless idiots (raising the question of how they managed to assemble a new empire in the first place) it's a sign of a very weak story and it makes the opposition into a joke. If they're all incompetent they can only succeed when the plot requires it, and there's no doubt that the heroes will overcome them once the plot determines that it is time to do so. There's no sense of threat, only clumsy idiots stumbling around until they've had enough screen time and the movie proceeds to the victory party.
Now, they don't have to be portrayed as legendary geniuses of military strategy, but there needs to be at least basic competence. And "hey, let's send another ship at them" is basic competence.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/16 11:04:29
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2017/12/16 12:22:16
Subject: The Last Jedi - Movie Discussion - WARNING - Possible Spoilers Within!
djones520 wrote: First, Romanian cinema culture apparently doesn't put much stock in things like turning your cell phone off, not holding loud conversations, and generally not being rude to everyone around you.
LOL'd pretty hard at this. Sorry man.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/16 12:22:24
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
2017/12/16 12:37:52
Subject: The Last Jedi - Movie Discussion - WARNING - Possible Spoilers Within!
The only thing I really hated about the movie was that Hux was a cartoon villain almost throughout the entire movie. Especially at the start, where he starts to go on a rant about how the resistance is doomed, only to get blown off by Poe. It seemed like the Dreadnought commander should have been the one to be in command of the fleet rather than Hux.
Of course, this begs the question as to why in the hell they shot the base first rather than the Cruiser, but...
The only reason I could see them not wanting to blow all of their bomber pilots was the fact it was all the skilled not-Ywing pilots they had. Sure, they could buy a thousand more Ywings, but if they don't have any skilled people to man them...
My friend didn't like how Snoke died, but it was pretty much the same level as Palpatine getting thrown down a shaft. Kylo Ren showed him what he wanted to see, and Snoke, in his own arrogance, got rekt. I felt it was fitting to what they had shown so far. They seem to have wanted Ben Solo to be like his old character from the EU (where he took over the Republic) and that was the perfect chance to do it.
So did they actually kill off Phasma, or? She managed to survive a drop down a garbage chute, and everyone else seemed to live through Home One #2 blasting through them.
The only thing they haven't really explained is how Rey is/was capable of using the force without any training. Unless it's all something innate when she needs it, sort of like how Leia could superman through space.
warboss wrote: Is there a permanent stickied thread for Chaos players to complain every time someone/anyone gets models or rules besides them? If not, there should be.
2017/12/16 14:57:29
Subject: The Last Jedi - Movie Discussion - WARNING - Possible Spoilers Within!
At a ridiculously low cost, you mean. A handful of bombers, for a multi-kilometer-long space battleship? Hell yes you make that trade, every time. Poe was 100% correct in his actions, the resistance leadership is a bunch of idiots for not repeating it (or being unable to, because they built a big capital ship instead of a few thousand more bombers). But apparently we're supposed to be so sad over the tragic loss of the brave soldiers that we accept a military force that is paralyzed by fear of losses and worthless in a fight.
It was (sort of) shown in the TFA that the majority of the fleet was destroyed when the First Order used the super duper Star Destroyer and wiped out the Republic and made clearer in the novelization. Poe traded all of their bombers and some fighters for one ship but that wasn't the only Dreadnought, or at the very least they had more capitol ships, but Resistance doesn't have any more bombers or a way to replace them at this point. The Resistance doesn't have unlimited resources and is specifically said to be in a bad spot at that point. It was a Pyrrhic victory; he won the battle but lost the war, so to speak.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
2017/12/16 15:40:33
Subject: The Last Jedi - Movie Discussion - WARNING - Possible Spoilers Within!
Are people actually complaining that a Star Wars movie contains a scene where an ace pilot uses a starfighter to destroy a much larger and more powerful ship?
It's a fine setup. Poe waves the white flag to get close, then stalls long enough to charge the booster on the back of his ship. Still a bad plan but Poe is the best so he's good enough to shoot the anti-air guns to create a blind spot for the bombers to get in. And yes, without anti-air guns, a battleship can be sunk/crippled by a bomber. Probably not quite so definitively, but whatever, it happens.
As for whether its "worth it"; are people treating this like some kind of wargame with equal points? Taking a 1000 point Dreadnought out by losing 200 points of bombers is a good trade, but if the Dreadnought is part of a 50,000 point army and you're only sporting 2000... less good. Banking on Rey making an assassination run on the Emperor was the better plan.
2017/12/16 15:42:45
Subject: The Last Jedi - Movie Discussion - WARNING - Possible Spoilers Within!
I really enjoyed the movie, but I have one big nit-pick that is really silly, but here goes:
Why does Luke use the blue lightsaber for his projection? There are several reasons it makes way more sense to use the green one.
1) He has used the green one way longer, like around 20 yrs compared to the 3ish yrs he used Anakins before losing it, so while I really like that Luke projected himself slightly younger as he would perceive himself (think Neo's self image in the Matrix) he probably would image himself with the RotJ green lightsaber.
2) According to the RotJ novelation, when Luke built his green lightsaber, he felt like it was more his that the blue on ever was. So like the wands in Harry Potter, lightsabers are connected to their users, and as I would imagine this would translate into self image, he should have had the green one.
3) Kylo would have been more familiar with Luke having the green lightsaber. Also, but Luke might not have known this, the blue lightsaber was split in half by this point. Kylo should have questioned this, although I can see how his anger wold have blinded him to small details.
Otherwise, I think it was a very satisfying movie and I am glad we at least got to see the green lightsaber in a flashback as it has always been my favorite. Let's hope Rey rebuilds he own light-staff for Ep 9
-
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/16 15:46:51
Given that the green saber created Kylo Ren, it was probably best he went with blue. What I wasn't 100% certain of was whether the saber he had at the end was Anakin's blue saber or Ben Solo's.
Also, if Kylo should have noticed anything, it was that Luke's feet weren't disturbing the salt.
2017/12/16 16:17:00
Subject: The Last Jedi - Movie Discussion - WARNING - Possible Spoilers Within!
LunarSol wrote: Also, if Kylo should have noticed anything, it was that Luke's feet weren't disturbing the salt.
Damn I was going to say that. It should have also been a bit off to the audience when he showed up looking like he did in the flashbacks and not as he did in present day but (outside the audience) the only one that knew what Luke currently looked like was Rey. I suppose Kylo should have been a bit suspicious when his old mentor looked like zero time had passed in the decade or so since the betrayal.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
2017/12/16 16:33:54
Subject: The Last Jedi - Movie Discussion - WARNING - Possible Spoilers Within!
Visuals are awesome, especially the light speed crash,
This scene was ruined for me by the mass of people in the theatre clapping and whooping and talking/exclaiming loudly as it happened, sucking all the cool factor out of it and the intentionally muted audio of the immediate aftermath.
In fact, the audience and people clapping and doing dumb crap like that when main characters and whatnot showed up ruined a lot of it
Not saying it doesn't happen but it's pretty rare to get a theatre that rowdy. The only time my theatre made an uproar was when luke came out of the smoke after being blasted at for 30 seconds. Though luck man.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Galef wrote: I really enjoyed the movie, but I have one big nit-pick that is really silly, but here goes:
Why does Luke use the blue lightsaber for his projection?
There are several reasons it makes way more sense to use the green one.
1) He has used the green one way longer, like around 20 yrs compared to the 3ish yrs he used Anakins before losing it, so while I really like that Luke projected himself slightly younger as he would perceive himself (think Neo's self image in the Matrix) he probably would image himself with the RotJ green lightsaber.
2) According to the RotJ novelation, when Luke built his green lightsaber, he felt like it was more his that the blue on ever was. So like the wands in Harry Potter, lightsabers are connected to their users, and as I would imagine this would translate into self image, he should have had the green one.
3) Kylo would have been more familiar with Luke having the green lightsaber. Also, but Luke might not have known this, the blue lightsaber was split in half by this point. Kylo should have questioned this, although I can see how his anger wold have blinded him to small details.
Otherwise, I think it was a very satisfying movie and I am glad we at least got to see the green lightsaber in a flashback as it has always been my favorite.
Let's hope Rey rebuilds he own light-staff for Ep 9
-
That is a pretty small nitpick. Mine are much bigger. The light sabre could have been a replacement - they must run out of juice sometime right? The green one I agree would have been iconic. However, maybe this was the first time luke attempted this trick - could just be a detail he forgot to address and just imaged the last sabre he saw used. Which was when he saw Rey practicing with a blue sabre.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/16 16:39:06
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2017/12/16 18:27:02
Subject: The Last Jedi - Movie Discussion - WARNING - Possible Spoilers Within!
I think this is the best sw movie. Better then empire. Better action. Better story. I think its exactly what the whole franchise needed. A clean break from everything that came before it.
Spoiler:
Who is snoak? Doesnt matter hes dead.
Who are rays parents? Doesnt matter their nobody. Their dead. Move forward.
What about the skywalker lineage? Doesnt matter. Its done. Other people exist in the universe who are important without having to be in proximity of a skywalker. Move forward.
It feels like were free of episode 1-6 now. A burden is gone and they can just move forward.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
2017/12/16 18:55:04
Subject: The Last Jedi - Movie Discussion - WARNING - Possible Spoilers Within!
Lance845 wrote: I think this is the best sw movie. Better then empire. Better action. Better story. I think its exactly what the whole franchise needed. A clean break from everything that came before it.
Spoiler:
Who is snoak? Doesnt matter hes dead.
Who are rays parents? Doesnt matter their nobody. Their dead. Move forward.
What about the skywalker lineage? Doesnt matter. Its done. Other people exist in the universe who are important without having to be in proximity of a skywalker. Move forward.
It feels like were free of episode 1-6 now. A burden is gone and they can just move forward.
Except... none of those except arguably #3 were from episodes 1-6, and there wasn't any reason to take up the burden of #3 in the first place. All of the problems you're talking about were explicitly created by the two new movies to... be ignored and discarded by the two new movies.
I can only assume with this logic that 'Episode 9' will dispose of Kylo (a skywalker), Rey (trained(ish) by a skywalker) and Finn (because... whatever, apparently?) entirely so the next new trilogy can carry on without any burdens from this trilogy.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/12/16 18:58:26
Efficiency is the highest virtue.
2017/12/16 19:20:32
Subject: The Last Jedi - Movie Discussion - WARNING - Possible Spoilers Within!
Lance845 wrote: I think this is the best sw movie. Better then empire. Better action. Better story. I think its exactly what the whole franchise needed. A clean break from everything that came before it.
Spoiler:
Who is snoak? Doesnt matter hes dead.
Who are rays parents? Doesnt matter their nobody. Their dead. Move forward.
What about the skywalker lineage? Doesnt matter. Its done. Other people exist in the universe who are important without having to be in proximity of a skywalker. Move forward.
It feels like were free of episode 1-6 now. A burden is gone and they can just move forward.
If that's what you wanted to do. Call it a new star-wars saga then. No reason to call it episode 7-8-9.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2017/01/04 10:37:02
Subject: The Last Jedi - Movie Discussion - WARNING - Possible Spoilers Within!
Voss wrote: Except... none of those except arguably #3 were from episodes 1-6, and there wasn't any reason to take up the burden of #3 in the first place. All of the problems you're talking about were explicitly created by the two new movies to... be ignored and discarded by the two new movies. I can only assume with this logic that 'Episode 9' will dispose of Kylo (a skywalker), Rey (trained(ish) by a skywalker) and Finn (because... whatever, apparently?) entirely so the next new trilogy can carry on without any burdens from this trilogy.
Who snoak is was on everyones mind. They were plumbing through the past looking for who he could be. Was he plaguis? Was he this guy that guy? They answered it in the best way.
Whos rays parents were was the same. Was she lukes kid? Kenobis grandkid? Again, the best answer. A clean break.
The last scene of the movie sums it all up.
Spoiler:
anyone can be a hero. Even some back world kid who wasn't born of the force and some destiny
Xenomancers wrote: If that's what you wanted to do. Call it a new star-wars saga then. No reason to call it episode 7-8-9.
Because starwars is based on old Flash Gordan serials that played before old movies. They were all episodic in a way where you didn't really need to know the rest of what was going on. It's why the original starwars (4) opened the way it did in the middle of everything already going on. (also it wasn't originally called episode 4 a new hope. It was just called star wars) Just because 7 8 9 10 11 12 don't have to tie directly to 1-6 doesn't mean they are not new chapters within the world. Hell, it's why they are called episodes like no other film series.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/16 19:40:31
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
2017/12/16 20:17:35
Subject: The Last Jedi - Movie Discussion - WARNING - Possible Spoilers Within!
Voss wrote:
Except... none of those except arguably #3 were from episodes 1-6, and there wasn't any reason to take up the burden of #3 in the first place. All of the problems you're talking about were explicitly created by the two new movies to... be ignored and discarded by the two new movies.
I can only assume with this logic that 'Episode 9' will dispose of Kylo (a skywalker), Rey (trained(ish) by a skywalker) and Finn (because... whatever, apparently?) entirely so the next new trilogy can carry on without any burdens from this trilogy.
Who snoak is was on everyones mind. They were plumbing through the past looking for who he could be. Was he plaguis? Was he this guy that guy? They answered it in the best way.
'He was nobody and it doesn't matter?'
Whos rays parents were was the same. Was she lukes kid? Kenobis grandkid? Again, the best answer. A clean break.
'They were nobody and it doesn't matter?'
But, anyway, that doesn't actually address my point. While you can certainly put up a strawman about how 'everyone' was looking for answers in the old stuff, back in reality, my expectation was that the new films would actually flesh themselves out at some point- actually do the work and give the characters some background and details that justify creating the characters in the first place. There was no 'burden' of the original movies for Snoke. Just a failure of the new movies to do anything with him. Similarly, Rey needs some explanation for her Mary Sue powers, Skywalker or not. Given the new films introduced her and make her entirely self-contained, the burden is on them to do something narratively satisfying with her, not blame the old films for existing and just refuse to engage.
The last scene of the movie sums it all up.
Spoiler:
anyone can be a hero. Even some back world kid who wasn't born of the force and some destiny
Hmmm. That is distinctly not the impression I've gotten.
Just because 7 8 9 10 11 12 don't have to tie directly to 1-6 doesn't mean they are not new chapters within the world.
Wait, here's the problem: 7 & 8 do 'tie directly' to 1-6. This isn't a theoretical situation- these movies are done. 7 is both a rehash and completely about the old cast and some perfunctory torch-passing to a new generation- the major arc of the story is 'find the Skywalker'. You've mentioned not needing 'proximity to a Skywalker' but the parts of 8 that don't end in pointless failure are riddled with Skywalkers. Go study with a Skywalker, God-King Astral Projection Skywalker, Grandson Heir to the Dark Side Skywalker, Soaring through Space Skywalker (only we don't call her that). Without the ties to 1-6, there is essentially no content to 7 and 8. Just a broody mutant yelling at an incompetent kid (Hux, because Ren wouldn't be there on account of being a Skywalker) cosplaying as an Imperial Admiral, blowing up the new republic capital for the lulz. The 'burden' you're so eager to cast off is in fact the story content for the new films.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/16 20:17:58
Efficiency is the highest virtue.
2017/12/16 21:15:22
Subject: The Last Jedi - Movie Discussion - WARNING - Possible Spoilers Within!
Ahtman wrote: It was (sort of) shown in the TFA that the majority of the fleet was destroyed when the First Order used the super duper Star Destroyer and wiped out the Republic and made clearer in the novelization. Poe traded all of their bombers and some fighters for one ship but that wasn't the only Dreadnought, or at the very least they had more capitol ships, but Resistance doesn't have any more bombers or a way to replace them at this point. The Resistance doesn't have unlimited resources and is specifically said to be in a bad spot at that point. It was a Pyrrhic victory; he won the battle but lost the war, so to speak.
That's a massive failure of scale. The Republic fleet would have been spread out through the galaxy (after all, they have pirates to deal with, defensive positions to maintain, etc) and even if half the fleet was destroyed in orbit over the capital that still leaves thousands, probably millions, of ships. It's like having a movie open with sinking a US aircraft carrier, followed by the next scene being a single squad of infantry taking the capital and forcing the US to surrender with the justification being "the US military was destroyed". It would be a meaningful loss, but not enough to get to the point where there's nothing left.
Likewise, why does the resistance only have a few bombers? For them to be even remotely relevant on the galactic scale they'd have to have a much larger fleet: hundreds of capital ships, thousands of bombers, etc. If the resistance is genuinely limited to a handful of bombers then why does the First Order even care about them? It's like if the US military was obsessing over the fact that a terrorist bolted a machine gun to a truck, and sending their entire force of tanks to destroy it. Those few bombers aren't going to accomplish anything even if the first order simply ignores them entirely, especially if the resistance leadership is so terrified of losing them that they won't commit them to a fight.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2017/12/16 21:22:33
Subject: The Last Jedi - Movie Discussion - WARNING - Possible Spoilers Within!
LunarSol wrote: Are people actually complaining that a Star Wars movie contains a scene where an ace pilot uses a starfighter to destroy a much larger and more powerful ship?
It's a fine setup. Poe waves the white flag to get close, then stalls long enough to charge the booster on the back of his ship. Still a bad plan but Poe is the best so he's good enough to shoot the anti-air guns to create a blind spot for the bombers to get in. And yes, without anti-air guns, a battleship can be sunk/crippled by a bomber. Probably not quite so definitively, but whatever, it happens.
As for whether its "worth it"; are people treating this like some kind of wargame with equal points? Taking a 1000 point Dreadnought out by losing 200 points of bombers is a good trade, but if the Dreadnought is part of a 50,000 point army and you're only sporting 2000... less good. Banking on Rey making an assassination run on the Emperor was the better plan.
Idea is good but did resistance literally have NOT EVEN ONE MORE x-wing left? Seriously odds of lone x-wing being able to take down all the guns should be ridiculously small(before big ships weren't as useless against fighters but guess the empire gunners have forgotten how to shoot) so if you are trying makes sense to use you know...bit more than lone fighter who like 99.99% cases would just get blown out of sky not accomplishing anything and when your whole escape plan relies on blowing those guns allowing transports to escape that's risky proposition.
2024 painted/bought: 109/109
2017/12/16 22:58:49
Subject: The Last Jedi - Movie Discussion - WARNING - Possible Spoilers Within!
First I want to say Voss has been spot on in assessment and argument so far in this thread. Kudos to you.
The Resistence is a threat not because of their ships or weapons. Those could very well be inferior in numbers and capability. They said it several times in the movie, The Resistence is a threat because they are the spark that will light the fire that destroys the first order. Their existence gives the oppressed in the galaxy hope and that hope can build up to topple the more powerful First Order.
At the end of the movie the slave kids were reinacting Luke’s stand-off with the At-At’s. The Legend returned to inspire a new generation. His job is done.
2017/12/16 23:17:23
Subject: Re:The Last Jedi - Movie Discussion - WARNING - Possible Spoilers Within!
In a word, incredible. In two words, flipping incredible. From the opening crawl to the end credits, I was enthralled. Cast were amazing, visuals were stunning, script rattled along and the story was gripping. Maybe not enough to topple ANH as my favourite, but definitely the most a SW film has affected me on a first watch, I was genuinely speechless by the end.
Spoilery McSpoilers
Spoiler:
This was Hamill's movie through and through. Both his performance and the direction Luke was taken in over the course of the film was terrific, and Hamill sells the Broken Old Hermit Luke with such a weight to him that when the climax comes and he reemerges as Legendary Hero Luke it's a real punch the air moment. To switch on a dime from such a shattered and depleted character to one that steps up exuding so much confidence and strength that he can stare down an entire army is truly remarkable. Not to detract from anyone else as the rest were all top notch as well (Fisher and Driver especially) but Hamill stole every scene he was in.
And speaking of Luke... that ending. Epic, heartbreaking, and a truly special moment. Unlike Han's demise, which only evoked despair, Luke's is somehow 'right'. He finds redemption, he finds peace, and he goes out the only way he was ever going to, laying down his life that his friends might go on... Oh, and being a total badass while he did it. Again, a lot of that is down to the sheer intensity of Hamill's performance, quite a few lines in those final few scenes gave me chills.
Returning characters were all good. Leia was fantastic as ever, Poe excelled himself and managed to avoid becoming a caricature, Finn was great and Rey and Kylo were the standouts once again, especially in their scenes together. New ones were largely very good as well, I especially like Rose and feel she fits right in as the through-and-through idealist representative of the joyful innocence that has always been at the heart of Star Wars.
I could go on all day about the scenes and moments I loved, but for the sake of time I'll stick to just a few...
The main thing I thought was amazing was the three versions of Ben Solo's fall we saw. Very clever to show the exact same scene from three perspectives and convincingly altering the meaning with each one, that's a hard trick to pull off but they managed it. And it totally makes both Luke's exile and Kylo's turn understandable, Luke didn't shut himself away because he was just blaming himself, it was genuinely his fault that everything he'd built came crumbling down.
Also Luke's lessons to Rey. The idea that the Jedi of old were full of hubris and arrogance, and the Force did not belong to them (or anyone) is a long-overdue one that it's nice to see acknowledged. I enjoyed that he had some fun with it as well, with the 'reach out' and 'not about lifting rocks' stuff.
YODA! I was really, really hoping we might see one or more Ghosts in the background of a shot or a minor cameo, but to actually have Yoda feature in a fairly major role was more than I dared hope. Truly glorious, and even moreso that they used the puppet rather than CGI.
The whole Throne Room sequence. From Rey's confrontation with Snoke to the epic duel with Rey, Ren and the Royal Guard (were they the Knights or Ren, or have we still not seen them?). Serkis was great, and while Kylo killing him was kind of telegraphed, his ultimate failure to resist the lure of power was very well done, and a nice reaffirmation of the Rule of Two/way of the Sith. The Apprentice kills the Master, and in doing so is destined to take his place. I dared to hope he could be redeemed, now I can't wait to see how far he'll fall (I don't think there's any going back for him now).
Only bit I didn't really like was the casino scenes and subsequent chase, that could have been cut down a little. And swearing in Star Wars was fine, but really a little unnecessary. .
Other than that, top stuff. Probably in at number 3 on my list after ANH and Rogue One, though I'll need to see it again to be sure... probably multiple times...
Yeah, it was a cracker. I have complete faith in Rian Johnson's trilogy after seeing this, and can't wait to see where episode IX is taking us...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/16 23:18:16
2017/12/17 00:05:52
Subject: Re:The Last Jedi - Movie Discussion - WARNING - Possible Spoilers Within!
Ahtman wrote: It was (sort of) shown in the TFA that the majority of the fleet was destroyed when the First Order used the super duper Star Destroyer and wiped out the Republic and made clearer in the novelization. Poe traded all of their bombers and some fighters for one ship but that wasn't the only Dreadnought, or at the very least they had more capitol ships, but Resistance doesn't have any more bombers or a way to replace them at this point. The Resistance doesn't have unlimited resources and is specifically said to be in a bad spot at that point. It was a Pyrrhic victory; he won the battle but lost the war, so to speak.
That's a massive failure of scale. The Republic fleet would have been spread out through the galaxy (after all, they have pirates to deal with, defensive positions to maintain, etc) and even if half the fleet was destroyed in orbit over the capital that still leaves thousands, probably millions, of ships. It's like having a movie open with sinking a US aircraft carrier, followed by the next scene being a single squad of infantry taking the capital and forcing the US to surrender with the justification being "the US military was destroyed". It would be a meaningful loss, but not enough to get to the point where there's nothing left.
Likewise, why does the resistance only have a few bombers? For them to be even remotely relevant on the galactic scale they'd have to have a much larger fleet: hundreds of capital ships, thousands of bombers, etc. If the resistance is genuinely limited to a handful of bombers then why does the First Order even care about them? It's like if the US military was obsessing over the fact that a terrorist bolted a machine gun to a truck, and sending their entire force of tanks to destroy it. Those few bombers aren't going to accomplish anything even if the first order simply ignores them entirely, especially if the resistance leadership is so terrified of losing them that they won't commit them to a fight.
Pretty much this. These movies give you no idea about scale and even mislead you about the scale. If the resistance is crushed if these 4 ships and 400 rebels are destroyed - we are wasting our time caring about them because they never had a chance. It's really just a terrible story.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2017/12/17 00:17:52
Subject: The Last Jedi - Movie Discussion - WARNING - Possible Spoilers Within!
Just had a thought too - if you have a fleet trapped and they can't hyper space away because you will just follow them...why don't you force the issue and hyperspace a few ships in front of them and then they are totally doomed. This is essentially a plot hole that should never make it's way into a big budget movie and I can't believe I didn't think about it sooner.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2017/12/17 00:21:04
Subject: The Last Jedi - Movie Discussion - WARNING - Possible Spoilers Within!
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Because until they enter Hypserspace you don’t know where they’re going?
I'm talking about the normal engine escape where they were (staying out of range of the big guns) just jump a few star destroyers ahead of them and crush them.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2017/12/17 00:27:51
Subject: The Last Jedi - Movie Discussion - WARNING - Possible Spoilers Within!
