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 Paradigm wrote:
Alternatively, Rey is just a very talented person? There exist, in real life, people who are exceptionally good at a large number of things, proficient in various fields moreso than most people would ever be.

Given a combination of her upbringing, where she'd have to learn to fight/repair/bluff to survive and maintain a constant mental fortitude to avoid just going mad alone in the desert, and her natural connection to the Force which appears to be very strong indeed, even passively, her level of competence is not hard to believe.

Those were Luke, and especially Anakin. And yet they needed proper training. I appreciated that they put a girl as the saber swinging character (but again, I find the implication from their part that Disney kinda created strong female characters insulting).
Nonetheless, I am not sure that you send the right message to a girl watching the movie that you are kind of entitled to things instead of needing to work for them. It almost implies that as a woman, you are either born with certain characteristics to have things handled to you, or you don't even try.
Wow. So much for the feminism, Disney.
Not better in the last movie - I am the only one that got a certain "Twilight" vibe from the Rey-Kylo thing?

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
You can still be a prodigy and have amazing natural talent; but the expectation is still that you need to practice and train.

Unless you're Luke, of course. Then you go from screwing around in your space-Cessna to flying a military fighter, out-flying trained pilots in combat, evading Vader (himself an elite pilot and powerful force user) better than anyone else in the rebellion, and making a one in a million shot that your veteran squadron leader couldn't make. But of course Luke isn't a Mary Sue...

 Lance845 wrote:

Voss wrote:
Oh, come on. She's an orphaned scavenger on a hell planet who is routinely shortchanged on basic rations to the point that she doesn't even bother to protest. She should be malnourished, half dead, scarred and generally look like she has skin the consistency of shoe leather.

Instead, she's
an engineering prodigy,
a crack pilot in space or atmosphere, doesn't matter, regardless of the lack of aerodynamics of a ship she's never flown before, doing maneuvers experienced pilots can't pull off in maneuverable fighters;
an expert staff fighter,
knows droid system language,
skilled climber,
can kill a man casually with her second ever shot with a pistol,
Effective light saber fighter, despite never touching one
And can learn complex Jedi mind tricks and other force abilities instantly as she needs them
And she's what... Twenty?

Yeah, doesn't fit a Mary Sue in any way at all.

Just like that 'not a bad pilot' farm boy who needed coaching (even through the climatic moment) and formal training and a fairly unsuccessful smuggler.

Luke, an orphaned farmer on a crap planet who bulls eyes wamp rats in his t16 (apparently only about a meter big, a feat other trained pilots think is nigh impossible) a crack pilot and excellent gunner in a space dog fight despite never having left his gak planet. Knows droid language. Kills a bunch of trained storm troopers the first time he uses a gun in an actual fight. Able to hold his own with a light saber despite his only training being MAYBE a week on a ship in hyper space and not particularly intense training. Learns force tricks instantly as he needs them like shooting those proton torpedos into that shaft without a targetting computer.

Anakin, a slave kid who can speak droid language. Builds a protocol droid from scrap at the age of 7 (that droid is fluent in 6 million forms of communication, which implies that anakin is fluent in 6 million forms of communication since he programed that droid).. Ace pilot who takes out an entire trade federation space station on his own. (again age 7). Knows force tricks at age 7 and picks them up as he needs them. Capable of leaping out of vehicles falling hundreds of feet and landing without injury. etc etc...

The entire cast of starwars always, seem to be incapable of being hit by blasters or explosions from any trained elite troopers of a military order that brings the galaxy to it's knees.

That fairly unsuccessful smuggler takes out the galaxys most successful bounty hunter while blind.

A ship gets torn in half, the explosion takes out hundreds of people in a room wearing armor. The 2 people not wearing armor are unharmed. The people standing in litterally every direction around the unarmored unharmed people are all dead.

Again... it's no different from ANY other character in Starwars. They are all ridiculous. If your upset about Rey why are you NOT upset about Luke or Anakin? Finn? Poe? C3-PO? R2-D2? Han Solo? Yoda? Rose? The new splicer guy? Jar Jar Binks who accidentally wipes out a gak ton of droid soldiers without suffering a single scratch and then works his way into being a senator?

The point you are missing is we get every indication that Anaken is special - he is literally the Jesus Jedi born without a father. (Highest mediclorian count ever - even higher than Yoda). It's only natural to expect special things from his offspring. However - luke is a giant screw up until ROtJ. He crashes his Xwing on Dagabah - fails constantly during his training and nearly dies fighting Vader for the first time (and this is with actual training from 2 Jedi masters). By comparison Rey - the first time she fights with a light sabre...draws with Kylo Ren...by every indication Lukes better or equal (with 0 training).

Anaken as boy (the first time he was ever in battle) accidentally flys a fighter into combat and accidentally blows up the droid command ship by pressing random buttons from the cockpit while being crashed in the droid hanger bay. It's a little bit different than flying a freighter (Millennium Falcon) like a stunt fighter through narrow passages that a tie fighter can't make...and making insane maneuvers that Han Solo never made. Even more stupid in Ep 7 shes teaching Han how to fix his ship! Come the F on man. It's almost unwatchable for me a second time. Rey is Huge Mary Sue.

I went in having already read all the spoilers and even watching some of the leaked footage on Reddit. I was divided on even bothering to watch it in the theater until all my friends came back saying they liked it. So gave it a go and. . .

Wow I was surprised how much I liked it. Of course, the writers and directors didn't seem to have any understanding of outer space, but if Tie Fighters can hover in an atmosphere now, I guess I have to accept that 'lighter' ships move faster than 'heavier' ships in a weightless environment. Nevermind that the First Order could have just sent a couple of ships ahead to cut off the Rebels.

But what really blew me away was the force conversations between Rey and Kylo. I thought that was awesome and they were my favorite scenes from the movie. Its going to be an interesting dynamic in the next film. Both Ridley and Driver were great.

There was a lot of stuff I could complain about, but I left the theater a lot happier about the movie than I thought I would. I will be honest about a few things. TFA and TLJ do not really feel like Star Wars to me, just movies with Lightsabers and Tie Fighters (which I don't understand how Tie Fighters are still being used). Even the Prequels, as bad as they are, feel more like Star Wars than this new trilogy.

I also LOVED Rogue One, and that one felt a lot more like Star Wars than TFA and TLJ combined.

As I grew up with Han and Luke as my childhood heroes, I really don't like seeing them used as props to move this new generation of heroes I could careless about forward. I really have no attachment to the new characters. As a matter of fact, they seem like caricatures, especially Poe. Seeing Luke watching the two suns set was touching, but I think it would have been more gratifying for everyone had Luke just had gone with them and beat Kylo in person. I think everyone wanted that. I am sure he shows up as a Force Ghost in 9, since afterall, Carrie Fisher is no longer with us.

Some people seem upset that Rey comes from no one special, but I like that. Thank God there is more to the Force than a single family.

This movie actually makes TFA a better film, which I watched again on Saturday before seeing TLJ. I still think TFA is crap, but I have a little more appreciation for it now.

If that pursuit in space thing was handled better, I would have said the film was even better than it was. Its pretty strange that there are more Star Wars films I dislike than actually like.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
That's a huge mischaracterization of the EU.

No, it's a dead-on characterization of the EU. I read the EU, before the NJO books got to the point of being unreadable garbage. Book after book was a bland and formulaic milking of the cash cow. A new leader for the empire to threaten to bring it back yet again, another trip to Hoth, and every main character from the OT has to get their own sub-plot, no matter how irrelevant it is to the overall story, just to check off the "included Lando" box.

Which is my point. If your fans take a very keen interest in the character you don't slap them in the face.

If you consider "Rey didn't have the origin I wanted her to have" a slap in the face, well, that's your problem.

We knew that they abandoned Rey because we see them fly off. It was not a meaningful revelation that they abandoned her. You actually see the abandonment. Rey never says they had a more complex reason for leaving. She simply says they'll be back. There really isn't a positive spin put on this by her.

Of course there's a positive spin. She clings to the hope that they'll be back. That they didn't just dump her and go off to do some space-drugs before dying alone in a back alley somewhere, that they left out of urgent need and would return for her. And that, when she does find them, that they'll be worth finding. The revelation is that no, that was all just a comforting lie, and she's on her own.

1) Why should I sympathize with Rey for being an ordinary person? Nobody ever says "I like you because you're a perfectly average person". Its a meaningless concept. What we do is we qualify this with their character, where they come from, what they have done and basically do everything to pull that person from obscurity. So basically a hero cannot be an ordinary person by definition. So making Rey ordinary does nothing for her character.

You're missing the point of the hero being ordinary. The whole point of the hero's journey, the mythological archetype that defines Star Wars (at least the OT, before all the cash cow milking), is that the hero starts as an ordinary person and becomes the hero. Luke is the hero of the OT, but when we first meet him he's an anonymous whiny kid living on a farm in the middle of nowhere and dreaming about being relevant someday. Yeah, later on you get his relationship to Vader, but you don't need that to enjoy ANH.

3) Rey hasn't made her own legend. Po blew up Starkiller base. Finn the first Stormtrooper to defect. Luke saves everyone on Krait. Leia leads the Resistance to safety. So far Rey has beaten a wounded emo, beat some red armoured stormtroopers and lifted some rocks. That's two films in which she hasn't done an awful lot. By this point Luke had blown up the Death Star, brought down two AT AT walkers, trained with Master Yoda, survived a fateful encounter with Darth Vader where his hand was chopped off. I am not saying Rey should be like Starkiller from Force Unleashed; but she really hasn't done an awful lot for all the complaining over her being OP. I have no doubt in the third film she will refound the Jedi Order, finally kill the emo and make her blue double bladed lightsaber to finally turn her into Satele Shan from The Old Republic MMO. So as of this film they have not made a legend of Rey.

It's hilarious that you can simultaneously complain about Rey being overpowered and good at everything and point out that she hasn't actually accomplished anything. You can't have it both ways.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Even more stupid in Ep 7 shes teaching Han how to fix his ship!

Even more stupid is overlooking the fact that this is explained in the movie, that she was familiar with the part in question (after all, the ship was right next door to her) and it had been added while the ship was out of Han's possession. Of course she'd know that particular detail better than him.

 kronk wrote:

Spoiler:

Backfire wrote:

 kronk wrote:
Saw it Friday.

Meh.

Rogue 1 is way better

Don't get the love for Rogue1. It was watchable but everyone involved lacked charisma and the movie didn't really advance Star Wars lore in any way. Also ending, though very tense, was very contrived.

It didn't need to advance the star wars lore. It was a one off Star Wars Story. It was fast paced, had cool gak blowing up, and a spunky, sarcastic reprogrammed Imperial Droid.

[

I found the pacing of the first half quite sloppy and schizophrenic, some character motivation lacking. But when the movie takes off, is for real.
Barring the fact that I liked the story and I find the characters appropriate for what is essentially a war movie, there is another unspoken element about Rogue One. Differently from TFA and TLJ it does not spit on the OT, but it celebrates it.
In R1 you see the empire full force crushing the opposition, Vader is less talky-man and more ruthless kill machine, the victory is paid at a huge cost by literal nobodies. It shows what usually happens when you go against the empire. You die.
Troopers will swarm you, special forces will snipe you, AT-AT will crush you. The empire in R1 is not cartoonish. Is dangerous.
R1 makes the accomplishments of Luke, Leia, Hand, Antilles, Lando greater, instead of cheapening them.
Also, the quipbot has an humor and timing closer to the OT. And dark humor fitting the movie. It releases the tension, in general, without killing the scene.
Not always, the first part is not perfect. I am also curious to see what has been reshot, to be honest.

Also, for what I have seen, is better when they do NOT advance the lore. A good story does not need to.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Lord Scythican wrote:
3. Women treating men like incompetent donkey-caves

Probably because they are exactly that. I mean, Finn and Poe aren't exactly impressing here...

9. SJW themes

Uh, what? I don't recall anything about that, unless you count "there are characters who aren't white men" as a SJW theme.

They were not impressing because they were not allowed to be. Seriously the whole casino scene could have been avoided if purple hair would have told him something.

The SJW is a little tricky I admit, but it is mostly girl power and no man power. Like the mutiny of the three women. One of them being a guy could have deflated that argument.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
You can still be a prodigy and have amazing natural talent; but the expectation is still that you need to practice and train.

Unless you're Luke, of course. Then you go from screwing around in your space-Cessna to flying a military fighter, out-flying trained pilots in combat, evading Vader (himself an elite pilot and powerful force user) better than anyone else in the rebellion, and making a one in a million shot that your veteran squadron leader couldn't make. But of course Luke isn't a Mary Sue...

Peregrine, Luke was taken by the sand people and saved by Kenobi (edit: twice, there is the canteen too, disregarding the death star part that is strike three). Han does not like him on the spot, he has to earn that. He needs a whole new movie to get decent at lightsabers, and loses that duel (ESB). He has way more doubts about his abilities. Leia starts to give orders to him when she is saved, and belittles his height. Even in his moment of triumph, doing the only thing he can do well - pilot, he needs Han to engage Vader.
He ends ESB without an hand with his friends rescuing him.

You cannot say is the same situation I am sorry.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

Peregrine, Luke was taken by the sand people and saved by Kenobi. Han does not like him on the spot, he has to earn that. He needs a whole new movie to get decent at lightsabers, and loses that duel. He has way more doubts about his abilities. Leia starts to give orders to him when she is saved, and belittles his height. Even in his moment of triumph, doing the only thing he can do well - pilot, he needs Han to engage Vader.
He ends ESB without an hand with his friends rescuing him.

You cannot say is the same situation I am sorry.

Yes, Luke's character arc is far more interesting than Rey's.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
You can still be a prodigy and have amazing natural talent; but the expectation is still that you need to practice and train.

Unless you're Luke, of course. Then you go from screwing around in your space-Cessna to flying a military fighter, out-flying trained pilots in combat, evading Vader (himself an elite pilot and powerful force user) better than anyone else in the rebellion, and making a one in a million shot that your veteran squadron leader couldn't make. But of course Luke isn't a Mary Sue...

He receives force guidance from Obi-wan. That is all that is required to make that shot - he didn't even need to understand how he did it. If Rey was also receiving force guidance form a Jedi masters I don't think anyone would be complaining. She doesn't. She does all of this based on her own insight. It sucks.

 Lord Scythican wrote:
They were not impressing because they were not allowed to be. Seriously the whole casino scene could have been avoided if purple hair would have told him something.

Yes, you've identified one of the major flaws of the movie: that large parts of it simply disappear if the people involved spend a few minutes talking to each other. But I have no idea why you think this is somehow a men vs. women issue. Purple Hair doesn't keep her secrets to set Poe up as a reckless and incompetent , she does it because if she simply tells everyone what the plan is the movie doesn't gain another half-hour of length and a CGI spectacle chase sequence.

The SJW is a little tricky I admit, but it is mostly girl power and no man power. Like the mutiny of the three women. One of them being a guy could have deflated that argument.

Uh, sure. So by that argument any story in which three men have a mutiny without any women involved it's an example of hate and misogyny? Also, I'm kind of confused about which mutiny you're talking about, when the only mutiny in the story had a man (Poe) as the leader.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
He receives force guidance from Obi-wan. That is all that is required to make that shot - he didn't even need to understand how he did it. If Rey was also receiving force guidance form a Jedi masters I don't think anyone would be complaining. She doesn't. She does all of this based on her own insight. It sucks.

So your problem is that you're too lacking in imagination to understand that it's the force giving her guidance unless you have an old man's voice explicitly saying the words? Plus you're ignoring the other examples of Luke being a Mary Sue without any guidance from Obi-wan. Where was that voice when he was dogfighting with TIEs, or even getting that x-wing out of the hangar without crashing?

 Peregrine wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
You can still be a prodigy and have amazing natural talent; but the expectation is still that you need to practice and train.

Unless you're Luke, of course. Then you go from screwing around in your space-Cessna to flying a military fighter, out-flying trained pilots in combat, evading Vader (himself an elite pilot and powerful force user) better than anyone else in the rebellion, and making a one in a million shot that your veteran squadron leader couldn't make. But of course Luke isn't a Mary Sue...

Yes but Luke actually flew something and all he did was fly in a straight line. Plus Obi Wan trained him how to focus on the force and use that to guide his shot. Rey has never flown any vehicle and never had any training in connecting with the force. Yet she is able to perform some pretty ridiculous maneuvers through a field of wrecked Star Destroyers without crashing it whilst being shot at by ace Tie pilots.

Its not about power level. I have absolutely no objection to being shamelessly in awe of a female character being powerful. I mentioned the Wonder Woman film earlier as a counterpoint. So Rey is both too successful considering her lack of training and hasn't achieved anything of note. Theres no contradiction here. She's never had anything like when, I dunno, Satele in the Hope Cinematic drops down and wrecks those Sith (as an aside Sith>whatever Snoke/Ren are supposed to be). But shes also not playing the game. A trainee apprentice should go through the motions of actually training and taking advice and shouldn't be able to beat the big bad in the initial fight regardless of circumstances. So although Kylo Ren is an emo, an unimpressive and insipid villain. A joke. She still should not have beaten, him wounded or not. Rey cannot be both a fish out of water and already a master at everything. Either introduce her as a master or have her play the game and go through that learning experience.

Also, she definitely is not the first female force user to have a big role in Star Wars. Loads of characters in the EU and it ignores Ahsoka. Who BTW is a much better and more developed character than Rey. So you can't even say that Rey represents a foot in the door for feminism in Star Wars.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:
He needs a whole new movie to get decent at lightsabers, and loses that duel (ESB).

No he doesn't. He needs a brief training scene to be good enough with a lightsaber to block blaster shots while blind. Then he magically goes beyond "decent" to "one of the best swordsmen in the galaxy" in ESB, despite being trained by a muppet who can't wield a sword to spar with him.

As for the rest, Rey doesn't magically resolve the entire movie on her own either. Nor am I saying that Rey is a great character, I'm simply pointing out that other characters are guilty of similar "WTF, where did that skill come from" moments in Star Wars without getting the Mary Sue hate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Yes but Luke actually flew something and all he did was fly in a straight line.

Uh, no. He dogfights and shoots down TIE fighters, then manages to evade well enough to stay alive against Vader for much longer than anyone else.

Rey has never flown any vehicle and never had any training in connecting with the force.

Uh, what? She's shown flying one in the first scene with her.

@Peregrine "Even more stupid is overlooking the fact that this is explained in the movie, that she was familiar with the part in question (after all, the ship was right next door to her) and it had been added while the ship was out of Han's possession. Of course she'd know that particular detail better than him."

Yep - she an expert mechanic at 19-20 years old because she scavenges scrap for a living. Automatically knows how to make battle repairs to a ship that's been customized to the max. Knows better than the guy that customized the ship himself because he "he forgot". Forgive me but that is weak.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
A trainee apprentice should go through the motions of actually training and taking advice and shouldn't be able to beat the big bad in the initial fight regardless of circumstances.

You may notice that she doesn't beat him, she forces a draw. And that failure by Kylo Ren is necessary for his story arc. It reinforces one of his major character themes, his sense of inadequacy compared to Vader and his need to prove himself, and it sets up the opening of TLJ where Snoke crushes his ego and drives him to turn Rey at all costs. If he beats Rey in that fight then his arc doesn't progress properly.

And now you sound like you've not actually watched TFA either.....

 Peregrine wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:
He needs a whole new movie to get decent at lightsabers, and loses that duel (ESB).

No he doesn't. He needs a brief training scene to be good enough with a lightsaber to block blaster shots while blind. Then he magically goes beyond "decent" to "one of the best swordsmen in the galaxy" in ESB, despite being trained by a muppet who can't wield a sword to spar with him.

As for the rest, Rey doesn't magically resolve the entire movie on her own either. Nor am I saying that Rey is a great character, I'm simply pointing out that other characters are guilty of similar "WTF, where did that skill come from" moments in Star Wars without getting the Mary Sue hate.

Sorry but this is not an honest answer. I like your logic and I generally agree with you on most things but here I don't see any.
We see Luke training with the saber in ANH but he does not fight with the saber in such movie. He is only initiated to the force and uses it as an intuition power. A bonus to hit, if you wish. The Alliance player uses a CP and Luke (character) gets a +2 to the shot
No lightsaber in ANH so that training only counts as basics.
In ESB, you are just purposefully dismissing the training of Yoda for the sake of the discussion. But Yoda is a great master and teaches Luke the ways. We don't need to watch Luke train directly with the saber, just gain more insight and knowledge, such connection makes him more powerful. Also, it allows more master-student moments and improves world-building. You can still not like how is represented and want true saber fighting but yoda trained Luke, fullstop.

Compare now what Rey does. Beats a guy trained by Luke Skywalker. This alone is preposterous.
You say is a draw - well from a narrative standpoint is still stupid.
After that, there is no true master-student relationship. The character has been written by people that imply entitlement. Is horrible, and an horrible role model for a character that was desperately in need to be a good one.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Yep - she an expert mechanic at 19-20 years old because she scavenges scrap for a living. Automatically knows how to make battle repairs to a ship that's been customized to the max. Knows better than the guy that customized the ship himself because he "he forgot". Forgive me but that is weak.

You don't have to be an expert mechanic to notice something bolted on in a random location, especially if you're used to looking at mechanical stuff and identifying interesting parts. And it's not that Han forgot, it's that the modification happened while Han didn't have the ship. There is no possible way Han could have known about it because it wasn't there the last time he had the ship. Rey has seen it, he hasn't. Rey points out the thing, he doesn't. It makes perfect sense if you pay attention to the movie.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:
In ESB, you are just purposefully dismissing the training of Yoda for the sake of the discussion.

Of course I am, because Yoda can not train him in that subject. Yoda can teach him how to use the force, about the dangers of the dark side, etc. But he can't teach Luke the mechanics of sword fighting because of his physical limitations. To get good at fighting with a sword (or any weapon) you need to practice with it, and Yoda can't be a sparring partner. Luke's fight with Vader is almost certainly the first time he has ever used a lightsaber in a duel, and yet he fights an expert swordsman on a competitive level and comes within inches of landing a fatal blow.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:
He needs a whole new movie to get decent at lightsabers, and loses that duel (ESB).

No he doesn't. He needs a brief training scene to be good enough with a lightsaber to block blaster shots while blind. Then he magically goes beyond "decent" to "one of the best swordsmen in the galaxy" in ESB, despite being trained by a muppet who can't wield a sword to spar with him.

As for the rest, Rey doesn't magically resolve the entire movie on her own either. Nor am I saying that Rey is a great character, I'm simply pointing out that other characters are guilty of similar "WTF, where did that skill come from" moments in Star Wars without getting the Mary Sue hate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Yes but Luke actually flew something and all he did was fly in a straight line.

Uh, no. He dogfights and shoots down TIE fighters, then manages to evade well enough to stay alive against Vader for much longer than anyone else.

Rey has never flown any vehicle and never had any training in connecting with the force.

Uh, what? She's shown flying one in the first scene with her.

Just because you can use a pedal bike does not mean you can fly an F-16. If you know how to use a car and all your friends are pilots who join the rebellion I am a bit more reassured. Plus, that connection to the force.

Because the X Wing is a vastly superior space fighter with shields compared to the unshielded Tie fighters used by the Imperial Navy. Also Vader first kills the others and is about to kill Luke before he gets zapped by Han. What Rey does piloting wise is far beyond what Luke or any pilot does in the original trilogy, at one point flying through the inside of a wrecked Super Star Destroyer whilst evading elite First Order pilots in upgraded Tie Fighters. Per Hux, his stuff is supposed to be better than the Clones and Imperial units.

Its not like Rey just barely took off and hyperspaced off whilst the local Third Rate First Order garrison tried to shoot her down. Fine, shes had some familiarity with a ground vehicle and shes a bit smart; fair enough. Instead the writers decided "lets have an insane chase sequence through some wrecked Star Destroyers coz it will look awesome!!!!". Which if its Po Dameron fine. But it should not be Rey doing it. In fact the whole sequence would have made much more sense if Po had been flying and both of the kids were on the guns.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:
In ESB, you are just purposefully dismissing the training of Yoda for the sake of the discussion.

Of course I am, because Yoda can not train him in that subject. Yoda can teach him how to use the force, about the dangers of the dark side, etc. But he can't teach Luke the mechanics of sword fighting because of his physical limitations. To get good at fighting with a sword (or any weapon) you need to practice with it, and Yoda can't be a sparring partner. Luke's fight with Vader is almost certainly the first time he has ever used a lightsaber in a duel, and yet he fights an expert swordsman on a competitive level and comes within inches of landing a fatal blow.

Peregrine, in that universe is more a sense of connection with the force that Yoda is training, plus physical stuff in combination with telekinesis.
We don't need to watch a duel that was impossible to pull with the special effect of the time.
When Lucas had the chance, he made Yoda a warrior (it kinda ruined his mystique, but that is another matter entirely).
Sorry but your point does not hold water. Yoda trained Luke, regardless how much you agree with the methods, and the limitations put by its character and the special effects available in 1980.
None trained Rey on a believable extent. And all my other points stand - Luke got in trouble way more and had to be saved waaay more in his journey.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Lord Scythican wrote:
They were not impressing because they were not allowed to be. Seriously the whole casino scene could have been avoided if purple hair would have told him something.

Yes, you've identified one of the major flaws of the movie: that large parts of it simply disappear if the people involved spend a few minutes talking to each other. But I have no idea why you think this is somehow a men vs. women issue. Purple Hair doesn't keep her secrets to set Poe up as a reckless and incompetent , she does it because if she simply tells everyone what the plan is the movie doesn't gain another half-hour of length and a CGI spectacle chase sequence.

The SJW is a little tricky I admit, but it is mostly girl power and no man power. Like the mutiny of the three women. One of them being a guy could have deflated that argument.

Uh, sure. So by that argument any story in which three men have a mutiny without any women involved it's an example of hate and misogyny? Also, I'm kind of confused about which mutiny you're talking about, when the only mutiny in the story had a man (Poe) as the leader.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
He receives force guidance from Obi-wan. That is all that is required to make that shot - he didn't even need to understand how he did it. If Rey was also receiving force guidance form a Jedi masters I don't think anyone would be complaining. She doesn't. She does all of this based on her own insight. It sucks.

So your problem is that you're too lacking in imagination to understand that it's the force giving her guidance unless you have an old man's voice explicitly saying the words? Plus you're ignoring the other examples of Luke being a Mary Sue without any guidance from Obi-wan. Where was that voice when he was dogfighting with TIEs, or even getting that x-wing out of the hangar without crashing?

Yeah you totally missed it all. Don't worry about it. You got good things happening for you.

You mean the fight where Vader isn't after Luke's head because he wants him to join him? The fight he wins pretty easily and ends up just tossing crap at Luke?

The duel at the end of esb was anything but competitive.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Fine, shes had some familiarity with a ground vehicle and shes a bit smart; fair enough. Instead the writers decided "lets have an insane chase sequence through some wrecked Star Destroyers coz it will look awesome!!!!". Which if its Po Dameron fine. But it should not be Rey doing it. In fact the whole sequence would have made much more sense if Po had been flying and both of the kids were on the guns.

I chalked it up to "self Force discovery", she's been taping into it her whole life, even though she doesn't know what IT is.

In The Last Jedi,




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 welshhoppo wrote:
You mean the fight where Vader isn't after Luke's head because he wants him to join him? The fight he wins pretty easily and ends up just tossing crap at Luke?

The duel at the end of esb was anything but competitive.

Yeah, Vader wanted Luke alive. He was pulling his punches.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Yep - she an expert mechanic at 19-20 years old because she scavenges scrap for a living. Automatically knows how to make battle repairs to a ship that's been customized to the max. Knows better than the guy that customized the ship himself because he "he forgot". Forgive me but that is weak.

You don't have to be an expert mechanic to notice something bolted on in a random location, especially if you're used to looking at mechanical stuff and identifying interesting parts. And it's not that Han forgot, it's that the modification happened while Han didn't have the ship. There is no possible way Han could have known about it because it wasn't there the last time he had the ship. Rey has seen it, he hasn't. Rey points out the thing, he doesn't. It makes perfect sense if you pay attention to the movie.

I guess I missed the part where modifications were made to the falcon that Han was not aware of and never mentioned. I guess I should have better imagination when it comes to this stuff. Maybe I was mislead by the fact that Rey describes the ship as a piece of junk that hasn't flown in years and the fact that she never said she worked on it.

Baring those thing. In the originals we see Han making repairs to the falcon...the ship is always breaking and he struggles to fix it. Rey fixing a problem in 8 seconds it probably would have required Han much longer to figure out in the original series - it just kills it for me. Can't care less if you come up with some made up explanation as to why she can fix the Falcon better than Han solo (the guy that practically built the thing) it kills the magic for me that Rey is so much better at everything our previous heros were - just because of SJW reasons.

And where is it said that Rey had never flown before....

TFA - if you listen to the dialogue... wrote:
Finn - We'll need a pilot!

Rey - We've got one!

So please, explain to me this confusion that she'd never flown anything before ever except her bike thing?

 Peregrine wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
A trainee apprentice should go through the motions of actually training and taking advice and shouldn't be able to beat the big bad in the initial fight regardless of circumstances.

You may notice that she doesn't beat him, she forces a draw. And that failure by Kylo Ren is necessary for his story arc. It reinforces one of his major character themes, his sense of inadequacy compared to Vader and his need to prove himself, and it sets up the opening of TLJ where Snoke crushes his ego and drives him to turn Rey at all costs. If he beats Rey in that fight then his arc doesn't progress properly.

She does beat him. He is on the ground with a lightsaber wound on his face and shes ready to "DO IT" when the ground splits between the two of them.

Well he is extremely inadequate if he can't beat somebody who has never held a lightsaber in their life. Can you imagine if a master Samurai gets beat by some random who has never held a sword and who was struggling with two hired thugs earlier in the movie....My reaction to Snoke mocking him was that I thought it was hilarious. I had no sympathy for this pathetic and weak man at all. That's a great setup if the point he is meant to be a loser I laugh at; but with him the Supreme Leader now I get impression we are actually meant to take him seriously?

What should have happened is that he failed to break and capture Rey despite being this dark side prodigy. You could have exactly the same reaction and feelings expressed. It would be a failure deep enough to wound him and anger Snoke but not enough to demean his threat as a villain. Without having Rey all but throw Ren over her knee and spank him.


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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
And where is it said that Rey had never flown before....

TFA - if you listen to the dialogue... wrote:
Finn - We'll need a pilot!

Rey - We've got one!

So please, explain to me this confusion that she'd never flown anything before ever except her bike thing?

She has never left Jakku. She also mournfully looks up at the ships as they leave the planet. I would take that to mean she has never been in a spaceship since that would involve leaving Jakku.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


So please, explain to me this confusion that she'd never flown anything before ever except her bike thing?

I'm confused about her opportunities. Granted, in the Star Wars universe, space cessna's are just lying about. However, she was a dirt poor junker on a dirt poor planet. I doubt she was enrolled in a pilot vocational training in high school.

 kronk wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Fine, shes had some familiarity with a ground vehicle and shes a bit smart; fair enough. Instead the writers decided "lets have an insane chase sequence through some wrecked Star Destroyers coz it will look awesome!!!!". Which if its Po Dameron fine. But it should not be Rey doing it. In fact the whole sequence would have made much more sense if Po had been flying and both of the kids were on the guns.

I chalked it up to "self Force discovery", she's been taping into it her whole life, even though she doesn't know what IT is.

In The Last Jedi,

Spoiler:

she evens says to Luke (badly paraphrased) "I have something inside me, but I don't know what it is!"

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 welshhoppo wrote:
You mean the fight where Vader isn't after Luke's head because he wants him to join him? The fight he wins pretty easily and ends up just tossing crap at Luke?

The duel at the end of esb was anything but competitive.

Yeah, Vader wanted Luke alive. He was pulling his punches.

This isn't the Wheel of Time, Rey is not a Ta'Vren.

Yes this statement confirms Rey is force sensitive. Water, wet. Being force sensitive opens the door to these abilities, any display of power should be minimal until your skills have been tempered by training and practice. My take on this is that its basically like an old Samurai or martial arts film, you must learn at the feet of the wise master and learn how to use chopsticks before you can do cool stuff. Think Killbill where she goes to meet the wise master and learn all the martial arts. We know she is an awesome assassin but she goes there to learn and improve herself. Same principle applies to Rey in Star Wars.

They should have refrained from being OTT with her abilities and be keen to show that she is training and qualify why she is able to do certain things.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

They should have refrained from being OTT with her abilities and be keen to show that she is training and qualify why she is able to do certain things.

I get that thought. I totally do. She pulled some incredible stunts in a vehicle she most likely had never flown or even ridden in before.

But it was fething cool.

How do you figure she's never flown it before?

Immediately prior, she confirms she's a pilot.

She also shows an intimate knowledge of the Falcon's inner workings.

Does that not suggest a serious knowledge of it's capabilities?? Ones learned in her youth?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kronk wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


So please, explain to me this confusion that she'd never flown anything before ever except her bike thing?

I'm confused about her opportunities. Granted, in the Star Wars universe, space cessna's are just lying about. However, she was a dirt poor junker on a dirt poor planet. I doubt she was enrolled in a pilot vocational training in high school.

Do we need to know how, or just accept that at that point she was an experienced pilot? Because she was.