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 Spinner wrote:
Well, that's because it is a convenient plot device; so is the droid's escape pod not being blown up on its way down to Tatooine. So is Hoth having a cannon capable of temporarily crippling a Star Destroyer with one hit. So is the Empire deciding to locate the Death Star's shield generator on an easily-infiltratable forest moon.

I'd say that the lack of fuel had a much better in-movie explanation than all of those. They didn't have time to load spare fuel, they out-and-out said they were leaving behind supplies. The Dreadnought blew it all up.

Reread what I wrote above, the biggest issue beyond illogical parts is the pandering to the TV-series crowd instead of building a linear, archetypal story.

What wasn't linear about the story? They had four or five solid main-character-style arcs that began, developed, and resolved during the film.

1. They though the escape pod had malfunctioned, hence it not being destroyed.

2. The cannon made sense.

3. Wasn't the location part of Palpatine's grand plan for luring them into a trap, hence the location?

Those things make sense.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


It's perfectly acceptable for people to question fuel consumption, especially when it has never been an issue before. It smacks of a convenient plot device solver thing.

Easily answered though; with the FO on the rise and their unofficial support from the Republic cut off, the Resistance are in a worse state than they were in TFA, and in a worse state than we ever saw The Rebellion, who by and large get stronger throughout the OT each film.Just because we've never seen anyone run out of gas before doesn't mean it's a complete non-issue.

After all, if no one ever needs fuel, what is Cloud City mining all that Tibanna gas for?

 Paradigm wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


It's perfectly acceptable for people to question fuel consumption, especially when it has never been an issue before. It smacks of a convenient plot device solver thing.

Easily answered though; with the FO on the rise and their unofficial support from the Republic cut off, the Resistance are in a worse state than they were in TFA, and in a worse state than we ever saw The Rebellion, who by and large get stronger throughout the OT each film.Just because we've never seen anyone run out of gas before doesn't mean it's a complete non-issue.

After all, if no one ever needs fuel, what is Cloud City mining all that Tibanna gas for?

It's Lando running it. Tibanna gas was probably a cover for that casino heist he was planning...or something

To sum up. I though the film was a sack of gak. That's a valid opinion.

Other people enjoyed the film. That's a valid opinion.

Thank you, good night, and Merry Xmas.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Spinner wrote:
Well, that's because it is a convenient plot device; so is the droid's escape pod not being blown up on its way down to Tatooine. So is Hoth having a cannon capable of temporarily crippling a Star Destroyer with one hit. So is the Empire deciding to locate the Death Star's shield generator on an easily-infiltratable forest moon.

I'd say that the lack of fuel had a much better in-movie explanation than all of those. They didn't have time to load spare fuel, they out-and-out said they were leaving behind supplies. The Dreadnought blew it all up.

Reread what I wrote above, the biggest issue beyond illogical parts is the pandering to the TV-series crowd instead of building a linear, archetypal story.

What wasn't linear about the story? They had four or five solid main-character-style arcs that began, developed, and resolved during the film.

1. They though the escape pod had malfunctioned, hence it not being destroyed.

2. The cannon made sense.

3. Wasn't the location part of Palpatine's grand plan for luring them into a trap, hence the location?

Those things make sense.

I'm not saying there's no explanation for these things, but you can easily 'poke holes' in them the way people are trying to do with the fuel consumption thing. The Empire is well aware that droids exist, and they're actively looking for plans, not a person - just because there's no life forms aboard the pod doesn't mean that it wasn't fired on purpose, and the gunners should know that. If the cannon made sense, full stop, how come the rebels don't use them all the time? Palpatine's plan was overcomplex and led to his own downfall; he had built in an entirely unnecessary weakness.

Of course all of these have a simple answer. The gunners were lazy or just going through the motions, or maybe they wanted to recover the plans instead of destroying them. Maybe the ion cannon is too unwieldy or power-consumptive to use on board a ship, or maybe it only has enough ammunition for a couple shots. Palpatine's hubris and pride in his own cleverness is a deliberate character flaw. It's easy to arrive at these conclusions, but it does take a little bit of thinking or assumption, which is something that people somehow aren't willing to do for the new movies.

Which is doubly frustrating, because they literally showed what happened to all the fuel.

 Spinner wrote:


What wasn't linear about the story? They had four or five solid main-character-style arcs that began, developed, and resolved during the film.

They are not even the same characters as TFA or the OT. This is the TRUE attack of the clones.

 Paradigm wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


It's perfectly acceptable for people to question fuel consumption, especially when it has never been an issue before. It smacks of a convenient plot device solver thing.

Easily answered though; with the FO on the rise and their unofficial support from the Republic cut off, the Resistance are in a worse state than they were in TFA, and in a worse state than we ever saw The Rebellion, who by and large get stronger throughout the OT each film.Just because we've never seen anyone run out of gas before doesn't mean it's a complete non-issue.

After all, if no one ever needs fuel, what is Cloud City mining all that Tibanna gas for?

I don't know, they were pretty beaten up after the battle of Hoth and then ran away with their tails between their legs.

So so far we have a copy of a new hope (yuppie young space terrorist blows up government installation, causing thousands of deaths. And a copy of ESB (terrorist cell is brought to their knees after a military defeat)

What's the odds of Episode 9 being yuppie young space terrorist destroys another government installation?

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Spinner wrote:


What wasn't linear about the story? They had four or five solid main-character-style arcs that began, developed, and resolved during the film.

They are not even the same characters as TFA or the OT. This is the TRUE attack of the clones.

How do you mean? Finn's still loyal and a little naive, Poe's showing another side of his cocky ace pilot persona, Rey's still desperate to learn about herself and the ways of the Jedi, Kylo Ren's still angsty and furious at the world, Hux is still a scumbag, Leia's still the heart of the Resistance/Rebellion, and Luke's an idealist - if a broken idealist for much of the movie - who rises to become a legend after being told he's taken the wrong things from his lessons.

Yoda's still a troll, too.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Starwars isn't sci fi. It's future fantasy (despite being set a long time ago).

You cannot nit pic their technology because their tech doesn't work on any real world level. Because it's not science. It's fantasy. Light sabers work because they are essentially magic items.

X wings can lift strait into the air and do all kind of crazy maneuvers and turns in space despite their only thrust being 4 engines that point strait back.

How the feth would a tie fighter turn? In atmosphere?

Again, it's fantasy. Not Sci Fi. Don't try to figure out fuel consumption or what would happen with their ships.

But if you follow the logic that anything can happen, and technology or magic can explain everything, then anybody can come along, click their fingers and turn everybody into Banthas or something.

There is no internal logic or consistency in most of these films. These films have chosen to follow the laws of Newtonian/Quantum physics or whatever. They should stick to those 'guidelines.'

It's perfectly acceptable for people to question fuel consumption, especially when it has never been an issue before. It smacks of a convenient plot device solver thing.

Every time you have seen the falcan, an x wing, or anything else in it's dock, it has all these large hoses attached to it.

Fuel lines.

It's already established.

I have never seen any person in starwars use a fork. That doesn't mean forks don't exist and it isn't emersion breaking if someone suddenly did have a fork.

Until In TLJ we saw the small book shelf nobody has ever seen a book anywhere in starwars. Is it emersion breaking that suddenly we are suppose to believe people in SW are literate? You have never seen anyone read anything before so whats the deal?

First things first, please remember, I didn't like The Last Jedi.

But anyhows, on the Rey subject. I'm one of those people who likes going back to the primary source, which would be particularly helpful here since many people are arguing one thing over each other.

FINN
We can't outrun them!
Rey POINTS to a parked, four-engine SHIP ahead:

REY
We might in that quad-jumper!

FINN
We need a pilot!

REY
We've got one!

REY (CONT'D)
The garbage'll do!
Finn, Rey and BB-8 enter the ship -- she hits a control and
the door DESCENDS CLOSED as she races to the cockpit:

REY
Gunner position's down there!

FINN

(CLIMBS DOWN)
Y'ever fly this thing?

INT. MILLENNIUM FALCON - COCKPIT - DAY

Rey tosses her staff aside, jumps into the pilot's seat,
frantically flips switches. BB-8 rolls in behind her as the
ENGINES WHINE to life:

REY
No! This ship hasn't been flown in
years!

So, 1) Yes, Rey HAS flown before. (2) *No* she has NOT flown the Falcon. That's not making anyone's argument, feel free to keep arguing. However, you're now arguing from a position of knowledge with the opportunity to argue honestly.

FINN Good shooting! Thanks! I--
Now that was some I don't know! -- I've
flying! How did you flown some ships but I've
do that?! No one never left the planet!
trained you? No one? Your last shot was dead
That was amazing! on. You got him with one
(beat) blast!
You set me up for it! (laughs)
(cocky) It was perfect!
That was pretty good.

Admittedly, the script isn't clear here, but it does suggest, that while Rey has flown before, she hasn't left the planet.

HAN (CONT'D)
Hey! Some moof-milker put a
compressor on the ignition line!
Han moves to the corridor.

INT. MILLENNIUM FALCON - LOUNGE AREA - DAY


REY
Unkar Plutt did. I thought it was a
mistake too, puts too much stress on the hyperdrive

Rey has been on the Millennium Falcon before and has had some experience with the ship.

HAN
Hey, where are you going?
REY
Unkar Plutt installed a fuel pump
too -- if we don't prime that we're
not going anywhere.

HAN
I hate that guy.
Han sits as, Rey hitting buttons

So, more confirmation that Rey was at least present or informed of the various work Unkar Plutt did.

I'm perfectly fine with the the fact that SW ships run off of a fuel of some kind - that is only logical. That is all well and dandy. What's not cool is a chase scene (basically the entire plot of the movie) that any decent First Order commander could have figured out quickly.

or maybe it happend like this

Random tactical annalist officer-

"Admiral - they have faster sub-light engines than us and are able to maintain safe distance from our main battery. Since we can just follow them easily through hyperspace they are effectively trapt. I recommend we send star destroyer 1, 2, and 3 ahead of the fleet through hyperspace and we will have them in a cross fire - they will be utterly destroyed"

Hux-
"I've got a better idea - lets keep wasting ammunition firing these completely awesome looking but ineffectual arching in space laser cannons. This will give the resistance more time to mount a completely useless fail-plan based off a grease monkies suggestion because we all know how this is ending...they are just going to hyperdrive that Mon Cal straight into us destroying our entire fleet...we basically can't win this...suicide hyper-drive too strong. Good thing they never tried this on our deathstars..."

I don't really mind Poe not being told. He had just proven himself to be reckless and prone to insubordination, and while his plan with the dreadnought paid off it came with a very heavy cost. Commanders also can't simply ignore someone ignoring their orders, it's not how ranks work.

Poe had no right at all to demand knowledge of his officers' plans. If you, in real life, tried to approach your commander and demand to be told the plans, you would justifiably be given a boot to the rear compartment.

Besides, there was a very real possibility of there being spies on board. The FO had tracked them through hyperspace and while I expected the classic hidden beep beep tracker to be responsible, a spy was also a possibility I considered. In such a situation commanders are understandably loath to share their crucial plans with anyone it is not absolutely necessary to tell.

 Spinner wrote:

lonestarr777 wrote:
Wow. I poked my head in here to take a look after seeing the movie this weekend and after reading just one page, Nope.

Have fun being bitter about something good.

Hahah, right? I came out of that movie feeling like I was eight years old again and wanting to be a Jedi when I grew up, came home, checked the Internet...sighed...

Same.

I came to this thread Thursday night and said that I liked it while also noting that it had already become a dumpster fire. I check back three days later and yep — sill a dumpster fire.

I really liked this movie and I like more after having slept on it and spending time thinking about it. I'm taking my kids to see it this Thursday and I'll probably catch another solo viewing before Christmas and probably another one after that.

Laura Dern didn't tell Poe her plan because then Poe would have nothing to do.* It's as simple as that.

*Or rather, Poe would be available to have an adventure with Finn and there would be no need for Rose. In that case, we also would not need Laura Dern. Leia would have stayed with the fleet while Finn and Poe went off to find Rey and Luke. That movie would have been significantly better than the one we got.

I heartily disagree. I enjoyed the subplot with the mutiny heavily. It went back and forth on one's expectations.

 Spinner wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Spinner wrote:


What wasn't linear about the story? They had four or five solid main-character-style arcs that began, developed, and resolved during the film.

They are not even the same characters as TFA or the OT. This is the TRUE attack of the clones.

How do you mean? Finn's still loyal and a little naive, Poe's showing another side of his cocky ace pilot persona, Rey's still desperate to learn about herself and the ways of the Jedi, Kylo Ren's still angsty and furious at the world, Hux is still a scumbag, Leia's still the heart of the Resistance/Rebellion, and Luke's an idealist - if a broken idealist for much of the movie - who rises to become a legend after being told he's taken the wrong things from his lessons.

Yoda's still a troll, too.

Finn is nowhere near as someone that was an indoctrinated stormtroopers. As I said before, they went for the quipping "DO YOU HAVE A BOYFRIEND" guy when we had a defecting Waffen-SS in space.
Poe is suddenly a dill weed because the plot demands it. Is just a different character from the cosmetically similar guy from the last movie.
Rey is still a non-character and will never be, at this point. Her motivations are like her struggle - weak and unimportant. You cannot give a crap because nothing in her past or present has given weight or difficulty. She just passes by.
Kylo Ren is going full twilight very soon. This is valid for Rey, too.
Hux was a sad caricature from the TFA speech, he only got worse from that.
Luke is so idealist that considered to murder his nephew in his sleep. Again, because the plot demands it. Like Han Solo, any progress the characters had in the OT is thrown away either for nostalgia or because the plot needs it. The last part as a legend not only throws you outside of the movie, but does not make sense with what we see in the first movie.
You forgot Snoke because he was only an Emperor prop put there to elicit nostalgia by J.J. They had no plan, they are just making stuff up like with a TV series and they are right - nobody gives a crap about what I wrote. Everyone is after the epic twist. Suddenly Snoke goes and we have no explanation or hint about his nature whatsoever.
As much as we have no idea how an imperial remnant is able to build stuff that shadows the true empire.
You forgot Phasma too, because at this point is downright a parody. The only thing that is good for is to highlight how badly written Finn is.
Also, along with Rey, and the containment plot in which they put Finn, she shows the hypocrisy of the writers. All this emphasis of females and people of color in SW (but then again, who are Leia and Lando) and all they can write is a vapid sue, an inconsequential pathetic villainess, a guy that is supposed to be a struggling survivor but HEY DO YOU HAVE A BOYFRIEND. Caricatures. And the best part that people swallow this as a sign of open mindness and virtue.
Disgusting.

The thing about Snoke is, at this point we know as much about him as we ever knew about Palpatine across the original trilogy. Political leader of The Baddies, strong with the Dark Side, plans to corrupt the hero of the piece, has an apprentice who he is eventually betrayed by. (let's not forget the word Sith isn't used in the entirety of the OT, Darth is just a name, not a rank and Vader is referred to as a Jedi several times)

The difference is, this time, because of the cultural mass around SW, people assumed there must be some secret to his identity that tied it in with the old EU or the new EU or the Old Republic or the prequels... Which is fine, it's always fun to speculate and I indulged in it myself. Same with Rey's lineage. But in both cases, I really don't mind that there was no secret after all (I was convinced Rey was Luke's daughter and Snoke was a Sith Lord from the old Rule of Two days who survived he's apprentice's assassination attempt, but I'm not at all bothered that I was wrong on both counts). I'm happy to let those characters be informed by what we've seen on screen rather than a book or comic or obscure reference.

For those that want it, I'm sure there'll be a book along in the next couple of years that explains exactly what, who and why Snoke is, but the fact remains that any 'secret' to his identity was entirely constructed by the fans, not informed by the previous film.

 Paradigm wrote:
The thing about Snoke is, at this point we know as much about him as we ever knew about Palpatine across the original trilogy. Political leader of The Baddies, strong with the Dark Side, plans to corrupt the hero of the piece, has an apprentice who he is eventually betrayed by. (let's not forget the word Sith isn't used in the entirety of the OT, Darth is just a name, not a rank and Vader is referred to as a Jedi several times)

The difference is, this time, because of the cultural mass around SW, people assumed there must be some secret to his identity that tied it in with the old EU or the new EU or the Old Republic or the prequels... Which is fine, it's always fun to speculate and I indulged in it myself. Same with Rey's lineage. But in both cases, I really don't mind that there was no secret after all (I was convinced Rey was Luke's daughter and Snoke was a Sith Lord from the old Rule of Two days who survived he's apprentice's assassination attempt, but I'm not at all bothered that I was wrong on both counts). I'm happy to let those characters be informed by what we've seen on screen rather than a book or comic or obscure reference.

For those that want it, I'm sure there'll be a book along in the next couple of years that explains exactly what, who and why Snoke is, but the fact remains that any 'secret' to his identity was entirely constructed by the fans, not informed by the previous film.

Sorry but this is a false equivalency. The emperor in the OT is slowly build: we only observe his effect in the words and actions of the officers and Vader in ANH, then we see him creeping in the life of the protagonists as a direct master of Vader until the final confrontation.
He has already in ANH the detail needed: we hear the officers say he dissolved the senate, one already knows he is a power hungry new caesar and he just got rid of a formality - the reaction of the officers is clear. We know know that is a political figure and is immensely powerful, by ESB or at least RotJwe know that he is in the same space wizard stuff of Vader. By then, he is a demonic figure of the tempter. He moves within archetypes and lives by those. We don't need anything more, McDarmid notwithstanding, the man with the mission to make the prequels bearable.

Snoke just grabs the superficial elements of the Emperor but is shallow, is unable to survive, as a character, only on them. And the very muddy context he is in just makes thing worse. The FO is supposed to be the underdog, but the audience is considered too stupid to follow that, so a carbon copy of the ANH must be chosen as a setting even if half of the movie implies the opposite and demands incredibly stupid decisions from everyone's part. He is powerful and yet we did not know him, and the prequels make clear Sith and similar guys come in packages of 2. He is scarred, but no detail is given on that. In case of the emperor, we discover in the prequels the monster face is due to a duel, but he could have been just a monstrously old being and we would have been happy with that.
The scars in Snoke add detail that in narrative term need explanation.
And again, the context. The FO can build a preposterous super-death star, huge ships and still we don't have an hint about Snoke, not even "Buzzwordian Crimelord" or a "Noble from House Whateverian, historically linked to the Dark side" just to give a tad bit of believability to him and the Order, his motivations beyond " I am evil LMAO" and the resources they use.
Snoke is, literally, a guy that is supposed to be killed in a Throne Room 2.0 because is a twist compared to RotJ. This is the essential "meta" nature of these movies.

This is just sloppy writing. And no, is not because is "a children movie" because the OT was a children movie and was not this stupid.
Also, there is the chance that Snoke will come back in any incredibly stupid way because now the modus operandi is to just make thing on the spot with no attention to character or universe whatsoever. So maybe J.J. next movie will find an explanation from the ending part of his digestive apparatus.
But in the meanwhile, the current one is an anticlimatic nonsense build like a Wham Episode of a TV series. Nothing is build to be stand-alone (I still have to read preposterous suggestions about reading the book to fix a stupid plot -stop that. is insulting) or to have a true, epic arc.
Hell they purportedly any chance, I dare to say RISK of epic with marvel quipping. Because god forbid we forget that this is a movie. Because these movies are not longer for children. They are not fairy tale anymore, the magic is murdered for the TV-series crowd.
Everything is deconstructed form the sake of a temporary, volatile, futile surprise.

Snoke was simply a plot device for Kylo Ren, who is the real bad guy of this trilogy. A lot of Star Wars villains are all flash and little substance. They only exist so the heroes have something to fight. Boba Fett is a great example of no personality or history. He existed to move the plot and then he dies in an embarrassing fashion. All of the development came after the sarlac burp.

I feel that there's a bit too much hyperbole when it comes to The Emperor.

When it came to the original trilogy, we had an Evil Emperor who was the leader of the Empire. As a starting point, that is enough information. There is no extra context needed. It's the Hero of 1000 Faces, it's the same story that has been told for centuries, we don't need more information, we can infer things from humanities collective knowledge of stories.


Episode 7 and 8 are a continuation of those stories. Sure, it's a really long time later, but it's still a continuation. The last the audience knew, the good guys won. Then Snoke appears, this new piece to the jigsaw and people scramble to figure out where he fits in. You get all the theories and so on.

But the truth is, after revealing The Last Jedi is, from watching the films. The answer is. He doesn't. He's just some random piece from some other puzzle, that has no context, just jammed in there.

And some people, like me, feel put off by that.

Why does that need explaining though? Snoke is scarred for the same reason Chewie is tall and hairy and Star Destroyers are angular and grey and C-3PO is gold and shiny and Ben Kenobi is old and bearded. It's visual shorthand. You'd never look at Snoke and think 'yep, he looks like a really nice friendly guy'. He looks monstrous, menacing and ancient, and that's all you need to know about him for his place in the narrative to work.

People have come to read way too much into every little detail of Star Wars and demand that everything be explained, and unless they switch over to making 4-hour-long films twice a year, we're never going to get answers to every question that comes up. I really can't see how not knowing why Snoke has scars detracts from TFA or TLJ in any way.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Snoke was simply a plot device for Kylo Ren, who is the real bad guy of this trilogy. A lot of Star Wars villains are all flash and little substance. They only exist so the heroes have something to fight. Boba Fett is a great example of no personality or history. He existed to move the plot and then he dies in an embarrassing fashion. All of the development came after the sarlac burp.

Boba had the detail needed for his role. His motivations are simple: is "get Han to Jabba, get money".
Simple =/= stupid

 Paradigm wrote:
The thing about Snoke is, at this point we know as much about him as we ever knew about Palpatine across the original trilogy. Political leader of The Baddies, strong with the Dark Side, plans to corrupt the hero of the piece, has an apprentice who he is eventually betrayed by. (let's not forget the word Sith isn't used in the entirety of the OT, Darth is just a name, not a rank and Vader is referred to as a Jedi several times)

The difference is, this time, because of the cultural mass around SW, people assumed there must be some secret to his identity that tied it in with the old EU or the new EU or the Old Republic or the prequels... Which is fine, it's always fun to speculate and I indulged in it myself. Same with Rey's lineage. But in both cases, I really don't mind that there was no secret after all (I was convinced Rey was Luke's daughter and Snoke was a Sith Lord from the old Rule of Two days who survived he's apprentice's assassination attempt, but I'm not at all bothered that I was wrong on both counts). I'm happy to let those characters be informed by what we've seen on screen rather than a book or comic or obscure reference.

For those that want it, I'm sure there'll be a book along in the next couple of years that explains exactly what, who and why Snoke is, but the fact remains that any 'secret' to his identity was entirely constructed by the fans, not informed by the previous film.

When you start a movie calling it episode lV straight up as the first thing you see. You know there are going to be unknowns - so it's okay that we don't know much about palatine 30 years ago at first release. We learn a great deal about him in ROtJ and the prequels though (you know, before he died).

 Ashiraya wrote:
I don't really mind Poe not being told. He had just proven himself to be reckless and prone to insubordination,

So why don't any of the other Resistance members deserve so much as a "hey, we've got a plan. Don't lose hope and spend the last few hours of your lives staring at the inevitable death by big laser cannons you can literally see out your space windows?"

....and while his plan with the dreadnought paid off it came with a very heavy cost. Commanders also can't simply ignore someone ignoring their orders, it's not how ranks work.

Mostly agree when you switch "very heavy cost" with "very poor risk-reward ratio."

The destruction of the dreadnaught came at the cost of a bomber squadron and saved the entire resistance, as if the dreadnaught had not been destroyed it's super cannon would have shot the main cruiser to smithereens through the shield. Poe's plan had a terrible risk-reward ratio as if the bomber run had failed the dreadnaught would have been able to destroy the main cruiser immediately afterwards and the Resistance would have died. Putting the cruiser at risk like that for bagging a dreadnaught was foolishness, and it was only his raw talent that kept him assigned a ship at all. [Remember, at this point decisions were made in the knowledge that a hyperspace jump would pull them all to safety]

Poe had no right at all to demand knowledge of his officers' plans. If you, in real life, tried to approach your commander and demand to be told the plans, you would justifiably be given a boot to the rear compartment.

Poe: "Officer, we are all about to die. What is being done.?"

Commander: 'Trust in the force. Do nothing.'

No reassurances. No sending to the brig for insubordination. Completely incompetent leadership on her part. She literally did nothing in response to his challenge. She gave neither hope nor discipline.

Besides, there was a very real possibility of there being spies on board. The FO had tracked them through hyperspace and while I expected the classic hidden beep beep tracker to be responsible, a spy was also a possibility I considered. In such a situation commanders are understandably loath to share their crucial plans with anyone it is not absolutely necessary to tell.

Keep in mind this isn't an attack on your rationalizations for what happened in the movie. I think you've constructed the most logical motivations and facts from the narrative we are given. The narrative itself is pretty bunk though.


1. Apparently the Resistance knew they were being tracked through hyperspace by a tracker. It is accepted as an absolute fact by every party for no reason.
2. If the commanders suspected a spy we could have had some fun bluff, double bluff stuff and maybe an actual spy! Or at least a mr Slugworth character could have been nice.
3. Not sharing a secret plan is not the same as leaving your crew in the dark without morale support of any kind. It is simply poor leadership.


The entire "put Poe in his place (and make Fin and Rose useless)" subplot is frustrating on multiple levels.

First of all, the message I got from a star wars movie is "don't question authority or go off and try to save the day. You'll just make it worse. Trust your commanders unquestioningly." That's not terribly star wars. It rankles tremendously. Especially when you have a much better "communicate with each other and trust each other to do the right thing" as lower hanging fruit.

Poe could have, and bloody well should have, told his commander what he (suspected) he knew about the first order's tracking ability and how they still had a shot to slip away. His withholding of that trust cost him the unity of the crew. Mutiny should never be undertaken before giving your commanding officer all the facts to make a decision. In that respect Poe's secrecy was more jarring, and reckless, and idiotic than his commander's.

Secondly, blame for the deaths of those killed in the transports is cast at Poe's feet because the slicer his friends found informed the first order of the Resistance plans. Problems with that:

1. Poe didn't know the plan. Impossible for him to have leaked it.
2. Slicer guy didn't know the plan. He either made an informed guess or was spewing bs and got lucky.
3. It was a terrible plan. Remember, the first order is monitoring the Cruiser's fuel reserves and is actively firing on it. It is in sensor range and has the sensors to get through whatever cloaking they were relying on, should the first order care to use it.
4. Why could Poe contact Maz but the Resistance couldn't contact their people? Why couldn't Maz contact people? How come she doesn't have time to save the Resistance she clearly cared for in TFA but assumes they have time to go find someone else to do it?

The whole thing is dumb from start to finish.

First Order Officer: "They're faster than us but they can't pull away from us."

That's not faster, that's the same speed.


Last but not least. Poe inadvertently mucks up the transport plan (that totally would have gone off perfectly so long as the First Order doesn't turn on their sensors) but also inadvertently save the Resistance by destroying the dreadnaught against orders.

If that dreadnaught had been part of the jump it's guns would have made mincemeat of the Resistance. He accidentally both saves and dooms the good guys but is held morally accountable for the dooming while also never having his saving acknowledged.

It's frustrating, man.

Poe disobeys Leia's orders and attacks the dreadnought. While he takes the dreadnought, most of the Resistance fighters and all of its bombers are lost. This was a bad trade for the Resistance. The FO demonstrably has a lot more military might where that came from whereas the Resistance absolutely does not. Leia admonished Poe for this - it's not just that he disobeyed her order but also that he lacks the vision necessary for effective managing (apparently ultra-scarce) Resistance resources. Demoting Poe literally communicates that he is not ready for command.

That's all fine.

Poe is (somehow) disappointed that he is not given command in the wake of the loss of the Resistance leadership. We're introduced to Laura Dern who is the hero of the Battle of Whatever, which seems to impress Poe. Poe tries to talk with her and she shoots him down. Later, when Poe asks what the plan is, she shoots him down. When he figures out part of her plan and questions her, she shoots him down. The movie set Poe up to get a lesson in good leadership. But the character the movie introduces to teach him that lesson (why not Leia btw? because Carrie Fisher was a bad actress?) is also a terrible leader.

I understand that the point was to make the audience suspect that Laura Dern is a Bad Guy so that in AN ASTOUNDING TWIST the movie could explain that she truly is an awesome hero. But her characterization does not support this plot structure. The script even concedes this is the case by requiring her to make the Heroic Sacrifice. Her behavior leading to the mutiny cannot reasonably be excused and Rian Johnson realized this. That's why he then has her insist on, literally, going down with the ship (despite there being no actual reason for this).

Skipping ahead, Poe is unwilling to just wait for the FO to kill them on the Salt Planet. This is exactly the same attitude he had all through the rest of the movie. This is exactly what Leia chastised and demoted him for. But now she explicitly approves his request to Blow Stuff Up. Then, in the middle of doing so, after getting even more people killed, Poe has his Realization Moment and orders breaking off the attack.

What is the point of this? Though the whole mutiny subplot, Poe has not fundamentally changed his attitude: doing courageous acts requiring self sacrifice seems to be his go-to solution. But then, when he is doing that, with Leia's explicit approval, he decides it's actually a bad idea. Poe has learned to ... what? Run away? But that's the opposite of what Admiral Laura Dern actually does.

I don't know what the movie wants me to feel. I don't think the movie knows what it wants the audience to feel. I think this is why it has such a hard time inserting jokes into totally inappropriate moments, for example.

Oh,Kylo and Rey were great. Like, legitimately amazing. That's mostly to the strength of the acting I feel.

I've watched the movie twice now and it's better the second time knowing what Luke is actually wrestling with throughout his exile. In that sense the movie gets better with time.

On the other hand whole sections of the movie are basically filler, IMO.

 Manchu wrote:

What is the point of this? Though the whole mutiny subplot, Poe has not fundamentally changed his attitude: doing courageous acts requiring self sacrifice seems to be his go-to solution. But then, when he is doing that, with Leia's explicit approval, he decides it's actually a bad idea. Poe has learned to ... what? Run away? But that's the opposite of what Admiral Laura Dern actually does.

Which, naturally, of course, directly contradicts the lesson, whatever it was, of Finn and Rose's journey... Which took up about a quarter to a third of the films runtime.

I seriously don't get why the critics, the professionals, aren't tearing the film apart for this sort of thing, which they'd happily do for various other films.

 Manchu wrote:

I don't know what the movie wants me to feel. I don't think the movie knows what it wants the audience to feel. I think this is why it has such a hard time inserting jokes into totally inappropriate moments, for example.

Hux and Kylo when they see Luke, for example.


And was anyone else surprised to hear the rest of the audience laughing when Kylo briefly ignites the lightsaber for a head shot? It happened in both viewings I attended and it weirded me out.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Snoke was simply a plot device for Kylo Ren, who is the real bad guy of this trilogy. A lot of Star Wars villains are all flash and little substance. They only exist so the heroes have something to fight. Boba Fett is a great example of no personality or history. He existed to move the plot and then he dies in an embarrassing fashion. All of the development came after the sarlac burp.

Boba had the detail needed for his role. His motivations are simple: is "get Han to Jabba, get money".
Simple =/= stupid

Which is the same level of detail most Star Wars villains have. Kylo is probably the most developed villain so far, and most of that is simply the skywalker whine. Star Wars =/= Simple

 Scrabb wrote:
Oh,Kylo and Rey were great. Like, legitimately amazing. That's mostly to the strength of the acting I feel.

I've watched the movie twice now and it's better the second time knowing what Luke is actually wrestling with throughout his exile. In that sense the movie gets better with time.

On the other hand whole sections of the movie are basically filler, IMO.

This has to be a joke. Kylos acting is trash - and it's not helped by the fact that his character is trash.

 Compel wrote:


Which, naturally, of course, directly contradicts the lesson, whatever it was, of Finn and Rose's journey... Which took up about a quarter to a third of the films runtime.

I seriously don't get why the critics, the professionals, aren't tearing the film apart for this sort of thing, which they'd happily do for various other films.

I've read like three articles about how great it is that this star wars don't care about the past and go book burnings, whoo!

While ignoring that Rey took the books and they still exist.