Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Talking about who is going to lead that nice group of friends that barely fill a soccer team roster.

Some deluded journalist wrote:Holdo proved herself to be the most worthy candidate, yet her jump to hyperspace that eviscerated the First Order's fleet might have been her final action, leaving audiences wondering if her ship's shield survived the maneuver.

Excellent! Just what we need a mediocre character returning next film to annoy the few fans that still look forward to it. If you are going to daydream for next movie at least bring somebody more interesting to your fanfic plot.

Also honest question because I cannot recall. Other than Finn, that nominally starts as a FO trooper, have we seen minorities among the FO crews? IIRC the Empire in the EU never had issues with humans of different shades, they were human supremacists.

M.

 insaniak wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
When the entire command structure of the resistance is composed of only females it hurts believability. .

Ignoring for a moment that you seem to have already forgotten poor Ackbar... Why?

Not that I'm on Xeno's side here, but if that's the only "male" on the command structure it's not a great argument, a carryover from the original trilogy that dies in a manner befitting an unnamed character during the opening sequence.

First Order officers seem to be largely male and white, as was the case with the Empire. (In the EU the Empire post-Endor opened up somewhat to women and aliens, but they never really cover ethnicity beyond 'human' in most of the books). Impossible to say what sort of ethnic make-up exists amongst Storm Troopers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Not that I'm on Xeno's side here, but if that's the only "male" on the command structure it's not a great argument, a carryover from the original trilogy that dies in a manner befitting an unnamed character during the opening sequence.

It wasn't an argument, it was a reminder.

And is beside the point anyway.

Neither side had many aliens because its easier not have many and if you do mainly stick to limited cosmetic bits - see Star Trek.

There were women on both sides in officer roles - we only saw female senior commanders in the rebels. This was apparently a small part of the FO fleet - there are quite possibly female senior offices who might even be competent unlike the ones we saw in the FO.

We don't see any ISD captains either - but as none of them do a single thing in the film thats not surprising.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Why does the command structure (by this I assume you mean the most senior members) being women hurt believability? Would it hurt the believability if it were entirely men?

IMO, the issue is more that Resistance is extremely diverse, with women being in majority of the leadership figures, whereas First Order is almost entirely white males. It just gives an uncomfortable vibe about this being a metaphor or statement.

Only if you think that it matters if a given character is male or female...

The fact that most of the Resistance leaders shown were female never even registered with me in the cinema, because it was irrelevant to the story.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I think the Han Solo movie was one of the worst ideas in a franchise riddled with bad ideas.

But then, I think Disney believes wrongly that the potential of the franchise is in the OT characters and their descendants rather than in the OT's setting and themes.

Umm...Rogue 1?? It was OT setting with new characters (well, there were old characters in side roles).

However, Disney is trying to crank these movies out too quickly. Rogue1 had to be redone (and it shows) and 2 years cycle between main SW movies feels too short. Risk of messing a writing process up is considerable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 insaniak wrote:
Only if you think that it matters if a given character is male or female...

It seems to matter to filmmakers, hence it is impossible for me to ignore it.

With regards to the gender and ethnicity of Star Wars characters.

If you recall your Star Wars history, then you'll know that after ANH, Lucas was criticised by African American community leaders for the lack of ethnic characters in ANH.

Lucas' response was to create Lando Calrissian, the greatest Star wars character of them all

Lando works because of the natural charisma of Billy Dee Williams, and because the character is well written and believable. His role in Empire and ROTJ fits into the story and make sense.

Years ago, nobody gave two hoots that Carrie Fisher was a woman, or that Billy Dee Williams was black, because their characters worked and made sense.

IMO, a lot of the critique of new SW characters is because their back story makes zero sense, their acting is as wooden as a coffee table, and the scripts suck more than 100 hoovers at full power.

Better characters and better scripts would solve so many problems.

Backfire wrote:

It seems to matter to filmmakers, hence it is impossible for me to ignore it.

It's a bit of a cyclical argument, really. It matters to film makers because it matters to audiences. People will still more readily accept men than women in certain roles, or will (as we're seeing here) complain if there are too many women in the room. Once we get to a point where we stop freaking out about a woman being in charge, and where women can be cast based on their suitability for the role instead of how much they look like a 20-year-old covergirl, it will stop being an issue.

This thread would seem to suggest there's still a way to go.

I had much of the movie spoiled for me thanks to a YouTube video. It was comparing Snokes power level to Emporer Palpatine. Before even starting he drops the spoiler right at the start........wtf guy! Best part is as the video went on I realized it didnt even need to be spoiled to compare the two.

 KingCracker wrote:
I had much of the movie spoiled for me thanks to a YouTube video. It was comparing Snokes power level to Emporer Palpatine. Before even starting he drops the spoiler right at the start........wtf guy! Best part is as the video went on I realized it didnt even need to be spoiled to compare the two.

True, but at this point the movie has been out long enough that "spoiler warnings" are an unnecessary courtesy. And you should also know better to even be watching videos that may potentially have spoilers if you do not wish to be spoilers.

Personally, I had the entire movie spoiled before watching, because I just cannot resist. And I am ok with it.
I still really enjoyed the movie as nothing compares to actually seeing the events unfold before your eyes.

-

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
When the entire command structure of the resistance is composed of only females it hurts believability. .

Ignoring for a moment that you seem to have already forgotten poor Ackbar... Why?

Not that I'm on Xeno's side here, but if that's the only "male" on the command structure it's not a great argument, a carryover from the original trilogy that dies in a manner befitting an unnamed character during the opening sequence.

There was a black man senior enough to command one of the three remaining ships in the fleet, but he died early on.

 Galef wrote:

 KingCracker wrote:
I had much of the movie spoiled for me thanks to a YouTube video. It was comparing Snokes power level to Emporer Palpatine. Before even starting he drops the spoiler right at the start........wtf guy! Best part is as the video went on I realized it didnt even need to be spoiled to compare the two.

True, but at this point the movie has been out long enough that "spoiler warnings" are an unnecessary courtesy. And you should also know better to even be watching videos that may potentially have spoilers if you do not wish to be spoilers.

Personally, I had the entire movie spoiled before watching, because I just cannot resist. And I am ok with it.
I still really enjoyed the movie as nothing compares to actually seeing the events unfold before your eyes.

-

The spoilers I hate are the ones that just come out of the blue. You mention to a mate you're going to see a movie and they spoil it without thinking, or you are sitting on a train and the people next to you just saw the movie and are discussing it, or you're in an unrelated forum and someone just blurts out a spoiler. It's really hard to avoid those spoilers. One time I mentioned to a mate I was just walking out the house to see a certain movie and he says "oh yeah, my Mum just saw that, apparently such and such dies in the end", another mate is a massive pain in the arse in that he just NEEDS to discuss everything, he doesn't seem to want to spoil anything but he just ends up talking about it so much that it's almost impossible to avoid having half the plot spoiled.

But if you care even slightly about not having movies or TV spoiled the last thing you do is look up videos/forums/google which have anything to do with the topic.

When it comes to movies I care about I hate spoilers, it ruins the film in that I'm just sitting there waiting for thing to happen instead of enjoying the story unfold of its own accord. As such I didn't look up anything Star Wars related prior to seeing TLJ.

Backfire wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I think the Han Solo movie was one of the worst ideas in a franchise riddled with bad ideas.

But then, I think Disney believes wrongly that the potential of the franchise is in the OT characters and their descendants rather than in the OT's setting and themes.

Umm...Rogue 1?? It was OT setting with new characters (well, there were old characters in side roles).

However, Disney is trying to crank these movies out too quickly. Rogue1 had to be redone (and it shows) and 2 years cycle between main SW movies feels too short. Risk of messing a writing process up is considerable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 insaniak wrote:
Only if you think that it matters if a given character is male or female...

It seems to matter to filmmakers, hence it is impossible for me to ignore it.

Rogue One, or rather half of that film, is the best Star Wars Disney has put out so far. At this point I'd welcome Catamaran of Courage: A Porg Adventure.

 insaniak wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
When the entire command structure of the resistance is composed of only females it hurts believability. .

Ignoring for a moment that you seem to have already forgotten poor Ackbar... Why?

Exactly how many women in a position of authority would be a believable number for you?

I forgot about Akbar because so did the director - dead anyways. Another great character emblematic of starwars - dies off camera. To be fair though can we really call him a male? He is a fish. Asexual for all we know.

Even distribution would have been reasonable - majority women in military-leadership is a political statement. The resistance is a military organization - you would expect more males than females based on that alone. Regardless - a number that isn't a political statement is what I would prefer - so I can focus on the sci-fantacy movie I am watching without politics being rammed down my throat. Or at least -if you must do that - write a good story with good characters. Holdo is an awful character (not because her hair is pink) - her terrible leadership caused a freaking mutiny - one in which the director actually wants to feel bad about because he make her the hero of the story. Brilliant.

Backfire wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Why does the command structure (by this I assume you mean the most senior members) being women hurt believability? Would it hurt the believability if it were entirely men?

IMO, the issue is more that Resistance is extremely diverse, with women being in majority of the leadership figures, whereas First Order is almost entirely white males. It just gives an uncomfortable vibe about this being a metaphor or statement.

It's almost as if the first order are supposed to be Nazis......

If you can successfully turn something into a nazi then you've made a villein everyone can hate without feeling bad.

I feel bad for Hux's parents.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Another great character emblematic of starwars - dies off camera.

Uh, what? What exactly made Ackbar a great character or emblematic of Star Wars? He was a minor character who had a single meme-worthy line. He had exactly zero depth or development as a character, and outside of that single line was nothing but a means of delivering the plot information to the audience.

Even distribution would have been reasonable - majority women in military-leadership is a political statement.

Is majority men also a political statement? Because that sure makes the rebellion of the OT a political movie. Are you outraged about ANH being a right-wing misogynist political statement? Or do you selectively focus on political statements that suit your ideological position?

The resistance is a military organization - you would expect more males than females based on that alone.

Why? Star Wars is not the real world. The social factors that make men dominate the military are not necessarily true there. But I suppose you're going to deny that "our current situation is universal truth" is a political statement, because it's an assumption you take for granted.

Holdo is an awful character (not because her hair is pink) - her terrible leadership caused a freaking mutiny - one in which the director actually wants to feel bad about because he make her the hero of the story. Brilliant.

Actually, Poe's insubordination and recklessness caused a mutiny. It's the military, a random fighter pilot isn't owed an explanation of everything just because he's friends with one of the other leaders. And that's especially true with a plan that depends on secrecy and misdirection, against an enemy who might have spies aboard (remember, they don't know how the tracking is being done). Poe has no need to know anything more than what he is told, and has no excuse for disobeying orders or hijacking the ship. And a character doesn't become a poor leader just because they decline to recognize the obvious superiority and importance of the designated main character of the story.

 insaniak wrote:

Backfire wrote:

It seems to matter to filmmakers, hence it is impossible for me to ignore it.

It's a bit of a cyclical argument, really. It matters to film makers because it matters to audiences. People will still more readily accept men than women in certain roles, or will (as we're seeing here) complain if there are too many women in the room. Once we get to a point where we stop freaking out about a woman being in charge, and where women can be cast based on their suitability for the role instead of how much they look like a 20-year-old covergirl, it will stop being an issue.

This thread would seem to suggest there's still a way to go.

Do you think that is a place that we will ever get? Do you think people will ever stop wanting to look at pretty girls instead of "not pretty girls". That will probably never happen. Do you ever think military forces which will pretty much always be majority male would prefer female leadership?

 Xenomancers wrote:
Do you think that is a place that we will ever get? Do you think people will ever stop wanting to look at pretty girls instead of "not pretty girls". That will probably never happen.

I don't know, do all women care only about looking at pretty boys and ignore everything else about their value as actors? Are you saying that men are inherently shallow and stupid and incapable of doing anything but looking at pretty girls, while women have managed to rise above such limits?

Do you ever think military forces which will pretty much always be majority male would prefer female leadership?

{citation needed}

Why exactly do you think that military forces will be majority-male, in a fictional setting where real-world cultural beliefs do not exist?

Also, the Rebellion and Resistance are as much political entities as they are military forces. Leia was not originally a military leader of the Rebellion, she was a part of the political wing of the anti-Empire movement, operating in the Senate.

What makes an effective leader of an irregular military and political group is not the same as what makes an effective leader within a purely military force.

People like looking at pretty people, pretty houses, etc etc

Actually, Poe's insubordination and recklessness caused a mutiny. It's the military, a random fighter pilot isn't owed an explanation of everything just because he's friends with one of the other leaders. And that's especially true with a plan that depends on secrecy and misdirection, against an enemy who might have spies aboard (remember, they don't know how the tracking is being done). Poe has no need to know anything more than what he is told, and has no excuse for disobeying orders or hijacking the ship. And a character doesn't become a poor leader just because they decline to recognize the obvious superiority and importance of the designated main character of the story.

Most of that is correct - I had no issue with her slapping the hot shot down as they still seem to be the remnants of actual military at this point and he should have obeyed the chain of command.

That being said the whole sequence was nonsense

We have already dicussed the fighter issues
Auto-pilots are a thing in Star Wars - indeed its a plot point in the first film, so there is no reason for to stay on board.

The fact that you can just ram anything into obvilion - well thats just become the reason that no one uses captial ships.

There are so many bigger issues wth the film in terms of pacing and plot than the amount of women in it.

 Mr Morden wrote:
People like looking at pretty people, pretty houses, etc etc

Actually, Poe's insubordination and recklessness caused a mutiny. It's the military, a random fighter pilot isn't owed an explanation of everything just because he's friends with one of the other leaders. And that's especially true with a plan that depends on secrecy and misdirection, against an enemy who might have spies aboard (remember, they don't know how the tracking is being done). Poe has no need to know anything more than what he is told, and has no excuse for disobeying orders or hijacking the ship. And a character doesn't become a poor leader just because they decline to recognize the obvious superiority and importance of the designated main character of the story.

Most of that is correct - I had no issue with her slapping the hot shot down as they still seem to be the remnants of actual military at this point and he should have obeyed the chain of command.

That being said the whole sequence was nonsense

We have already dicussed the fighter issues
Auto-pilots are a thing in Star Wars - indeed its a plot point in the first film, so there is no reason for to stay on board.

The fact that you can just ram anything into obvilion - well thats just become the reason that no one uses captial ships.

There are so many bigger issues wth the film in terms of pacing and plot than the amount of women in it.

How expensive are capital ships? What do you do with the crew aboard your capital ship when you decide to use it to perform a lightspeed suicide jump?

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
People like looking at pretty people, pretty houses, etc etc

Actually, Poe's insubordination and recklessness caused a mutiny. It's the military, a random fighter pilot isn't owed an explanation of everything just because he's friends with one of the other leaders. And that's especially true with a plan that depends on secrecy and misdirection, against an enemy who might have spies aboard (remember, they don't know how the tracking is being done). Poe has no need to know anything more than what he is told, and has no excuse for disobeying orders or hijacking the ship. And a character doesn't become a poor leader just because they decline to recognize the obvious superiority and importance of the designated main character of the story.

Most of that is correct - I had no issue with her slapping the hot shot down as they still seem to be the remnants of actual military at this point and he should have obeyed the chain of command.

That being said the whole sequence was nonsense

We have already dicussed the fighter issues
Auto-pilots are a thing in Star Wars - indeed its a plot point in the first film, so there is no reason for to stay on board.

The fact that you can just ram anything into obvilion - well thats just become the reason that no one uses captial ships.

There are so many bigger issues wth the film in terms of pacing and plot than the amount of women in it.

How expensive are capital ships? What do you do with the crew aboard your capital ship when you decide to use it to perform a lightspeed suicide jump?

Do you need a captial ship or just something that go to lightspeed? Its not clear - except we know it can be done. Indeed why were they worried about the Death Star, Starkiller base etc - just get a few fighters and hyperspace the hell out of it.

Given that the rebels are now short on everything - being able to destroy anything simply by ramming it makes things a lot simpler- you just get some people who are happy to die for the cause and get them to ramming cos you cna do it from ebyond effective range of the weapons on the warships as well.

Surely hyperspace torps would be the logical next step.

I will admit when I saw the devastation of lightspeed jumping through an enemy formation I did think "err, why isn't this THE weapon of choice?"

Get something heavy, whack a light speed drive (or whatever they call them in SW) and fire them at the enemy big ships, job done.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:
People like looking at pretty people, pretty houses, etc etc

Actually, Poe's insubordination and recklessness caused a mutiny. It's the military, a random fighter pilot isn't owed an explanation of everything just because he's friends with one of the other leaders. And that's especially true with a plan that depends on secrecy and misdirection, against an enemy who might have spies aboard (remember, they don't know how the tracking is being done). Poe has no need to know anything more than what he is told, and has no excuse for disobeying orders or hijacking the ship. And a character doesn't become a poor leader just because they decline to recognize the obvious superiority and importance of the designated main character of the story.

Most of that is correct - I had no issue with her slapping the hot shot down as they still seem to be the remnants of actual military at this point and he should have obeyed the chain of command.

That being said the whole sequence was nonsense

We have already dicussed the fighter issues
Auto-pilots are a thing in Star Wars - indeed its a plot point in the first film, so there is no reason for to stay on board.

The fact that you can just ram anything into obvilion - well thats just become the reason that no one uses captial ships.

There are so many bigger issues wth the film in terms of pacing and plot than the amount of women in it.

It's not all Holdo's fault, but IMO it's just a poorly written sequence of events such that when Holdo dies I have absolutely no emotional attachment to her and couldn't care less that she's going on a suicide mission.

And Poe is hardly just "a random fighter pilot", he was wing commander up until 5 minutes ago and even after being demoted is still a captain.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Another great character emblematic of starwars - dies off camera.

Uh, what? What exactly made Ackbar a great character or emblematic of Star Wars? He was a minor character who had a single meme-worthy line. He had exactly zero depth or development as a character, and outside of that single line was nothing but a means of delivering the plot information to the audience.

Even distribution would have been reasonable - majority women in military-leadership is a political statement.

Is majority men also a political statement? Because that sure makes the rebellion of the OT a political movie. Are you outraged about ANH being a right-wing misogynist political statement? Or do you selectively focus on political statements that suit your ideological position?

The resistance is a military organization - you would expect more males than females based on that alone.

Why? Star Wars is not the real world. The social factors that make men dominate the military are not necessarily true there. But I suppose you're going to deny that "our current situation is universal truth" is a political statement, because it's an assumption you take for granted.

Holdo is an awful character (not because her hair is pink) - her terrible leadership caused a freaking mutiny - one in which the director actually wants to feel bad about because he make her the hero of the story. Brilliant.

Actually, Poe's insubordination and recklessness caused a mutiny. It's the military, a random fighter pilot isn't owed an explanation of everything just because he's friends with one of the other leaders. And that's especially true with a plan that depends on secrecy and misdirection, against an enemy who might have spies aboard (remember, they don't know how the tracking is being done). Poe has no need to know anything more than what he is told, and has no excuse for disobeying orders or hijacking the ship. And a character doesn't become a poor leader just because they decline to recognize the obvious superiority and importance of the designated main character of the story.

No surprise but I disagree with everything you are saying.

Akbar has 3 MEME worthy lines. "It's a trap" - "We can't repel firepower of that magnitude" and "May the force be with us". He also briefs the Alliance on the death-star 2 attack which is a pretty good scene. He didn't get a lot of screen time but everybody loved him - that's what makes him great.

Mostly men in military leadership is not a political statement. It is the norm. It will continue to be the norm because men are better soldiers (this is a fact) and men want to be lead by men. So unless you are an alien species where psychical and psychological traits are distributed differently between it's sexes - mostly men is what you would expect. It's not a misogynist political statement. It just makes sense.

Social factors aren't the primary reason why men dominate the military. It's genetics.

I suppose their could be spies on board - in which case a plan that relies on misdirection isn't going to work...The spy would just contact the ships once the alliance members began boarding the transports...plan foiled - nice try though. Figuring out how they are being tracked should have been pretty high up on her list of things to do...she did nothing about it and said nothing about it. Poe was right to remove her from command. He's not just some random pilot ether - he likely is one of the highest ranking alliance members at that point - this should put him in the know on it's own.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I feel bad for Hux's parents.

There's actually a novel discussing Hux and his parents, along with his rise in the First Order and how he became how he is.

Hint: His father was a straight up donkey-cave.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I feel bad for Hux's parents.

There's actually a novel discussing Hux and his parents, along with his rise in the First Order and how he became how he is.

Hint: His father was a straight up donkey-cave.

Of course there's a novel. I should have known.

I just pictured two ex-rebel sympathizers named Herb and Judy Huxberg, trying and failing to teach their son how to respect all living beings and generally be a free spirit.

well that was kind of all over the place jumble of a film, and this 2h30+ plus trend is getting weary

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I feel bad for Hux's parents.

There's actually a novel discussing Hux and his parents, along with his rise in the First Order and how he became how he is.

Hint: His father was a straight up donkey-cave.

Of course there's a novel. I should have known.

I just pictured two ex-rebel sympathizers named Herb and Judy Huxberg, trying and failing to teach their son how to respect all living beings and generally be a free spirit.

..My only image coming to mind is that one character from the old Dexter's Laboratory cartoon, and now I'm trying not to imagine a young Hux on some sort of hippie planet full of flowers moping and brooding while wishing the Empire would come bombard the planet.