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@ZebioLizard2

No offense, but I think your vision of Kylo would have been more borring. The problem with any Star Wars villains is that they are measured against Darth Vader, one of the most famous and celebrated villain in movie history. Kylo Ren would at best, be a decent Darth Vader knockoff which is pretty bad. We don't need a Darth Vader knockoff when the real one is just around the corner. Disney, wisely, in my opinion, decided to go in the opposite direction. Instead of giving us a threatening vilain, they gave us one that might have been sympathetic, but who consistently goes against our notion of good when the time calls for it. Ren isn't made to be scarry because he is powerful and ruthless like Vader or Palpatine. Ren is threatening because we, the audience, want to give him "a second chance'' and he will not take it.

Plus, the obvious setup for this villain in the next movie is pretty simple. Ren, too young and impulsive, not ready for responsabilities of this magnitude, fails to assert his control over the First Order and turns to violence and brutality maintain his position. He gains a thousand ennemies from within and makes the entire organisation dysfunctional. This will allow rebels to sprout everywhere and run circles around him, which will drive him more unstabble, mader and more violent, which in turn will make him even more detested by his crew. Finally, in the end, Ren realise his greatest ambition. He becomes just like Darth Vader, alone, sad and empty. Heroes who try to save him all die by his hand and in the end he either end his own little tragedy or someone wisen up and finally puts him out of his misery. Ren isn't a villain that was meant to be feared, but a villain met to be both pittied and disgusted about. He surfs constantly between the two.

The ones used were memory flashes if I remember correctly, which was the basis of the whole Jango cloning thing. Where they used the prime being and passed on his knowledge and skills to the other genetic clones.

Though given a quick look at things, it seems like Flash Learning was very specifically just used for clones because of their advanced aging process. So I'm not sure if it was actually something used throughout the galaxy.

@epronovost

So essentially, all of our final villains are meant to be worthless as a challenge then to the Hero's Journey. Hux is a joke and Kylo sounds like he'll be ready killed off or dumped on a nearby non-tech planet to get stuck on forever... So what are the stakes for the final movie then? How is that not boring to have all the villains not really any sort of challenge or threat to the heroes while still trying to portray them as the massive issues our heroes must face?

And no, I don't buy that "Second Chance" threat.

Went to see the film last night, was 4/5, nice bit of entertainment, enjoyed it, won't create a new paradigm for movie entertainment and turn the world on its head.

I've read reviews online as well as much of this thread and was pretty surprised by how polarising it has been to the movie going public, rather than the movie press. And in some ways it feels like the very things that the critics like about the film (it's daring, doing something a bit different) are what turns off SW fans who are saying that the film isn't Star Wars.

Even though I don't agree, I can kind of see the point. It does shake some principles of the SW universe, and a lot of the ways that I (and I think a lot of fans) thought the plot would develop hadn't come to pass:
Rey from a long lineage of Jedi Knights (Luke's secret daughter etc.?) Nope, just the daughter of some loser junkers that happens to be very powerful with the force.
Did Kylo Ren mean to bring balance to the force with that cryptic "let me finish what you started" comment to Vader's crushed helmet? Nope, at the end of it all, he's just got power for himself.
Is Snoke actually Darth Vader or even the Emperor that survived from Episode VI? Nope, just another baddy, and half the man that those two were.

So I think much of the negative impact has been the film doesn't match what a lot of people's ideas about what SW should be, and the fact that it turns a few things on its head, rather than it expressly not being a good film. I can sympathise a bit with this, after being so hopeful about the Horus Heresy book series actually painting Horus as a believable villain, with his own motivations, rather than 'stabbed by a magic sword - mwa haha'. And it was a disappointment to me that they took the unbelievable 2D villian route and 'a wizard/chaos did it' for that series.

Anyway, I loved the action sequences, some of the space combat in particular, and the pairing of Rey/Kylo at the end of the film against the elite guards was probably one of the coolest things I have seen on film this year. The pacing was good, exciting and I liked the way that again we have seen the passing of the baton from the old guard to the new. Even though at least twice I thought "OK, they must be writing Carrie Fisher out of the story here", only for her to survive in both cases.

Backfire wrote:

I do mind when the moviemakers tout how diverse their cast is, and then limit that diversity only on good guys. All the bad guys are white males. It feels artificial, hypocritical and preachy.

Do you know, not once did it cross my mind "women good, mixed race good, white men bad, OMG". I didn't even notice. I don't know if that means more about me, my upbringing/education or whether I've just not been involved in some of the online cess-pit discussions that seem to have become the norm over the past few years. I think it's so sad that this ongoing polemic seems to be stopping people from just enjoying entertainment for what it is, and not being able to watch, read or experience anything without it being run through a filter of blue vs. red, left vs. right wing.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 dogma wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Physics doesn't exist in this film. Lasers are arching in space...

In the real world light arcs in space, and blasters are very clearly not lasers. Indeed, turbolasers and superlasers are obviously not lasers, lasers basically don't exist in Star Wars.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Still have to lift things/ carry things/ run places / ect.

Then every Star Wars military should be composed entirely of Wookies, regardless of sex or gender. As several people have said you're applying real-world standards to a universe where they don't apply.

In the real world light can change direction by passing through a medium or in the presense of a very large gravity feild. Nether of these occur in the shots from Snokes ship to the resistance vessel. Even if these things were firing projectiles...they would be going straight - forces have to act on a mass for it to change direction. There are no forces in space...it's a vacuum.

In regards to wookies - lacking the ability to say words might be a big problem for them. Appears to be mostly humans in the resistance anyways.

Dark Matter. Solved.

But is Dark Matter stronger than Light Matter? Or just quicker, more seductive?

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 dogma wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Physics doesn't exist in this film. Lasers are arching in space...

In the real world light arcs in space, and blasters are very clearly not lasers. Indeed, turbolasers and superlasers are obviously not lasers, lasers basically don't exist in Star Wars.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Still have to lift things/ carry things/ run places / ect.

Then every Star Wars military should be composed entirely of Wookies, regardless of sex or gender. As several people have said you're applying real-world standards to a universe where they don't apply.

In the real world light can change direction by passing through a medium or in the presense of a very large gravity feild. Nether of these occur in the shots from Snokes ship to the resistance vessel. Even if these things were firing projectiles...they would be going straight - forces have to act on a mass for it to change direction. There are no forces in space...it's a vacuum.

In regards to wookies - lacking the ability to say words might be a big problem for them. Appears to be mostly humans in the resistance anyways.

Dark Matter. Solved.

Dark matter is theoretical and likely doesn't even exist and if it does is supposed to be concentrated in the center and outer bands of galactic discs. More likely to be the nearby planet affecting the shots anyways. However - even if the blaster shots are some kind a plasma discharge that has mass - it still wouldn't be a pronounced arc like that.

 Pacific wrote:

Backfire wrote:

I do mind when the moviemakers tout how diverse their cast is, and then limit that diversity only on good guys. All the bad guys are white males. It feels artificial, hypocritical and preachy.

Do you know, not once did it cross my mind "women good, mixed race good, white men bad, OMG". I didn't even notice. I don't know if that means more about me, my upbringing/education or whether I've just not been involved in some of the online cess-pit discussions that seem to have become the norm over the past few years. I think it's so sad that this ongoing polemic seems to be stopping people from just enjoying entertainment for what it is, and not being able to watch, read or experience anything without it being run through a filter of blue vs. red, left vs. right wing.

I'd like to think I tick all those boxes you list, yet it was very noticeable to me. As said, I don't like too clear real world analogies, or preaching when I go to see fantasy movie. For example, in 'Kingdom of Heaven' all religious people were written as cowards or idiots or cowardly idiots. It was very disturbing, and I'm an atheist. Every time they try to put a message in a movie, it breaks down the fiction and internal consistency and makes it less believable, and takes away from the enjoyment.
I also don't like whitewashing. Or stuff like 'Last Samurai' where they had Tom Cruise lecturing Emperor of Japan what it means to be samurai.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
So essentially, all of our final villains are meant to be worthless as a challenge then to the Hero's Journey. Hux is a joke and Kylo sounds like he'll be ready killed off or dumped on a nearby non-tech planet to get stuck on forever... So what are the stakes for the final movie then? How is that not boring to have all the villains not really any sort of challenge or threat to the heroes while still trying to portray them as the massive issues our heroes must face?

And no, I don't buy that "Second Chance" threat.

Rey wants to save Kylo not kill him. Yes, if Rey was on a murder mission against Kylo Ren, then yes, he would be a pretty bad villain. A sociopathic, narcissic man-child with immense personal power at the head of an army of brainwashed killers is a gigantic threat to a group of heroes who want to prevent the death of innocent people and save the villain from folly. In fact, a mentally unstable villain is more dangerous than a rational one in such a context. The Hero's Journey isn't to defeat an evil warlord and his legion of faceless soldiers. The Hero's Journey is saving the villain from himself and prevent the death of innocent people. They hammered pretty hard in the last few scenes of the movie: "the Resistance isn't about destroying what you hate it's about saving what you love".

To be fair on the Last Samurai, it sort of makes sense to have the Emperor lectured to on what it means to be a samurai, as the Emperor was against the samurai; during the Meiji restoration the Samurai class was abolished.

It was still really dumb, and I'm sure the real emperor always intended to maintain Japan's traditions considering how that's the Emperor's job, but at least there was a sort of historical precedent behind it.

Backfire wrote:

 Pacific wrote:

Backfire wrote:

I do mind when the moviemakers tout how diverse their cast is, and then limit that diversity only on good guys. All the bad guys are white males. It feels artificial, hypocritical and preachy.

Do you know, not once did it cross my mind "women good, mixed race good, white men bad, OMG". I didn't even notice. I don't know if that means more about me, my upbringing/education or whether I've just not been involved in some of the online cess-pit discussions that seem to have become the norm over the past few years. I think it's so sad that this ongoing polemic seems to be stopping people from just enjoying entertainment for what it is, and not being able to watch, read or experience anything without it being run through a filter of blue vs. red, left vs. right wing.

I'd like to think I tick all those boxes you list, yet it was very noticeable to me. As said, I don't like too clear real world analogies, or preaching when I go to see fantasy movie. For example, in 'Kingdom of Heaven' all religious people were written as cowards or idiots or cowardly idiots. It was very disturbing, and I'm an atheist. Every time they try to put a message in a movie, it breaks down the fiction and internal consistency and makes it less believable, and takes away from the enjoyment.
I also don't like whitewashing. Or stuff like 'Last Samurai' where they had Tom Cruise lecturing Emperor of Japan what it means to be samurai.

Saladin what not written as an idiot in Kingdom of Heaven. He's the smartest guy in the film (or Bloom). It was also a great film IMO.

Last Samurai wasn't Tom Crusie lecturing the emperor what it means to be samurai (that never actually happens). It was Katsumoto teaching Tom Cruise (Nathan Algren) how to be a man after losing his self to the horrors of war. It was also about the clash of western culture on Japan of course. I love this movie (it might be my favorite movie) - it's not white washing at all. I mean...Crusie's character prefers the Samurai culture to his own.

An example of white-washing is Ghost in the Shell (with Scarlet Johansen) - which I will never see. It was strictly inserting a white woman into a roll a Japanese woman should play. I was furious about this.

An example of white-washing is Ghost in the Shell (with Scarlet Johansen) - which I will never see. It was strictly inserting a white woman into a roll a Japanese woman should play. I was furious about this.

The Anime creator for Ghost in the Shell disagree's with that statement. http://www.ign.com/articles/2017/03/21/original-ghost-in-the-shell-director-mamoru-oshii-has-no-problem-with-live-action-remake

"What issue could there possibly be with casting her?" Oshii told IGN by e-mail. "The Major is a cyborg and her physical form is an entirely assumed one. The name 'Motoko Kusanagi' and her current body are not her original name and body, so there is no basis for saying that an Asian actress must portray her. Even if her original body (presuming such a thing existed) were a Japanese one, that would still apply."

I don't care much for that movie personally though,

Not to stray off topic though.. I didn't really disagree with any of the casting choices in TLJ, Rose felt a bit bland personally but then that's because of how much of her character arc centered around Finn that it felt like she didn't really have much of her own to do. It didn't help that most of what she did during the movie was during the pointless side quest.

epronovost wrote:

Rey wants to save Kylo not kill him. Yes, if Rey was on a murder mission against Kylo Ren, then yes, he would be a pretty bad villain. A sociopathic, narcissic man-child with immense personal power at the head of an army of brainwashed killers is a gigantic threat to a group of heroes who want to prevent the death of innocent people and save the villain from folly. In fact, a mentally unstable villain is more dangerous than a rational one in such a context. The Hero's Journey isn't to defeat an evil warlord and his legion of faceless soldiers. The Hero's Journey is saving the villain from himself and prevent the death of innocent people. They hammered pretty hard in the last few scenes of the movie: "the Resistance isn't about destroying what you hate it's about saving what you love".

It occurred to me yesterday that with this yin-yang setup that they've been building between Rey and Kylo, it seems likely that they will both have to die in the last movie to maintain balance.

 insaniak wrote:

epronovost wrote:

Rey wants to save Kylo not kill him. Yes, if Rey was on a murder mission against Kylo Ren, then yes, he would be a pretty bad villain. A sociopathic, narcissic man-child with immense personal power at the head of an army of brainwashed killers is a gigantic threat to a group of heroes who want to prevent the death of innocent people and save the villain from folly. In fact, a mentally unstable villain is more dangerous than a rational one in such a context. The Hero's Journey isn't to defeat an evil warlord and his legion of faceless soldiers. The Hero's Journey is saving the villain from himself and prevent the death of innocent people. They hammered pretty hard in the last few scenes of the movie: "the Resistance isn't about destroying what you hate it's about saving what you love".

It occurred to me yesterday that with this yin-yang setup that they've been building between Rey and Kylo, it seems likely that they will both have to die in the last movie to maintain balance.

Or both live....or have a kid together.

I'm still "unsatisfied" that Rey is not Luke's daughter. It would have been nice symmetry with Kylo being the son of the daughter of the Chosen one, and Rey being the daughter of the son of the Chosen one.
If they are doing a "yin-yang" sort of thing, I can't thing of a better angle.
I suppose Kylo could have lied about Rey's parents being nobodies, or the Force showed him what he wanted to see, but 2 yrs is far too long to hold onto that theory.

-

 insaniak wrote:

epronovost wrote:

Rey wants to save Kylo not kill him. Yes, if Rey was on a murder mission against Kylo Ren, then yes, he would be a pretty bad villain. A sociopathic, narcissic man-child with immense personal power at the head of an army of brainwashed killers is a gigantic threat to a group of heroes who want to prevent the death of innocent people and save the villain from folly. In fact, a mentally unstable villain is more dangerous than a rational one in such a context. The Hero's Journey isn't to defeat an evil warlord and his legion of faceless soldiers. The Hero's Journey is saving the villain from himself and prevent the death of innocent people. They hammered pretty hard in the last few scenes of the movie: "the Resistance isn't about destroying what you hate it's about saving what you love".

It occurred to me yesterday that with this yin-yang setup that they've been building between Rey and Kylo, it seems likely that they will both have to die in the last movie to maintain balance.

Maybe, but I doubt it.

In fact, I can see both of them surviving.

Also, I'm not convinced that Rey's parents are truly 'no one'...

Kylo and the Dark Side Ouija Cave might not be the most reliable sources.

Also, I'm not sure that, even IF that is the case now and what they wanted 'now', that they won't pivot off of that later.

 Alpharius wrote:


Kylo and the Dark Side Ouija Cave might not be the most reliable sources.

Kylo had every reason to want to lie to her, to isolate her so that he was her crutch and she'd go to him.
For that reason its possible that his statement was a lie; its also likely that she's not related to him otherwise he'd have used that leverage at that point (if he knew it of course).


The Cave meanwhile, if its anything like the dark place in Dagoba (sp) then chances are Rey only took in what she had with her, and since she didn't know her parents that information wasn't in there to find.

The "You know the truth" was a repeated phrase from The Force Awakens, however. Maz said it to Rey when discussing her parents. - I had the quote a couple of pages ago.

Went to see this tonight with the Mrs. We both absolutely loved it. Super duper film

Rey being the daughter of nobody parents is symmetrical with Emo Jedi being the son of tip-top elite Force parents.

It's the mirror image, I mean, which is symmetrical.

That said, of course Emo Jedi could have been lying to her.

I hated it. The writing was lazy, the pacing was all over the place, way too much narration and not enough showing, kylo getting fooled by the specter of luke was unsatisfying, the bending laser or plasma shots, the jump drive ram bomb, the keepers of the jedi island, the double cross that wasn't really a double cross but was totally a double cross...

I hate movies that narrate important parts of the story. Show me, flashback or have the actors actually act (this is probably my number one reason why out of all the reasons why, Dragon Wars is the worst movie of all time) and star wars fell into this so fully.

I really enjoyed rogue one. I felt there were some complicated characters, good pacing and for a disney movie some real life grit to the characters actions and decisions. I went into this movie with hope and couldn't get past the first 10 minutes without being annoyed.

The good guys are good, the bad guys are bad, the action scenes did less than the narration to advance/reveal the plot (although the red room fight scene was okay if not a bit slow, the final planet fight was pretty but stupid)

The rich and powerful being rich and powerful was pointless (those the real bad guys, right? But why are they bad? How do you fight that? What is bad/good in that context? Good of the many v. good of the few? Technological progress at what cost? If it takes a planet of slaves to produce a galaxy worth of peace who gets to make that call? That would have been one hell of a movie if that scene had happened in the first couple minutes of the movie and the rest was pointing out how stupid both sides are for killing entire plants to line those guys pockets...But that's not what we got so it just seemed so poorly conceived.

I don't know. I hated it. Okay maybe hate is too strong of a word, it was pretty and the CGI was good but the dialog/acting/script and story were all really bad to me.

I've come to terms with the fact there's just no arguing with people right now. I remember it well in the prequel era, folks just would not listen to the idea that Star Wars films could be bad. It was a good 5 years after the trilogy ended before critical analysis flipped the critics' reviews on their head and 'common consensus' came round to realising the turkeys that we'd been sold.

If you've come into this thread with "I loved every minute" or "up there with the best of Star Wars" then I just want you to think about the scene where Luke is milking that space-Walrus. Milking that teat real good. Squeezing that green milk out. Now he's drinking that freshliy squeezed walrus-teat milk. Drinking it whilst looking at you, holding your eye. Yeah. Look at Luke. Keep looking. Loved every minute, you said.

 Riquende wrote:
I've come to terms with the fact there's just no arguing with people right now. I remember it well in the prequel era, folks just would not listen to the idea that Star Wars films could be bad. It was a good 5 years after the trilogy ended before critical analysis flipped the critics' reviews on their head and 'common consensus' came round to realising the turkeys that we'd been sold.

If you've come into this thread with "I loved every minute" or "up there with the best of Star Wars" then I just want you to think about the scene where Luke is milking that space-Walrus. Milking that teat real good. Squeezing that green milk out. Now he's drinking that freshliy squeezed walrus-teat milk. Drinking it whilst looking at you, holding your eye. Yeah. Look at Luke. Keep looking. Loved every minute, you said.

I enjoyed it more than all but TESB and ANH. Luke trolling Rey is preferable to all of TPM and AotC and the Ewoks.

 Riquende wrote:

If you've come into this thread with "I loved every minute" or "up there with the best of Star Wars" then I just want you to think about the scene where Luke is milking that space-Walrus. Milking that teat real good. Squeezing that green milk out. Now he's drinking that freshliy squeezed walrus-teat milk. Drinking it whilst looking at you, holding your eye. Yeah. Look at Luke. Keep looking. Loved every minute, you said.

I liked that scene. What's your point?

 Riquende wrote:
I've come to terms with the fact there's just no arguing with people right now. I remember it well in the prequel era, folks just would not listen to the idea that Star Wars films could be bad. It was a good 5 years after the trilogy ended before critical analysis flipped the critics' reviews on their head and 'common consensus' came round to realising the turkeys that we'd been sold.

If you've come into this thread with "I loved every minute" or "up there with the best of Star Wars" then I just want you to think about the scene where Luke is milking that space-Walrus. Milking that teat real good. Squeezing that green milk out. Now he's drinking that freshliy squeezed walrus-teat milk. Drinking it whilst looking at you, holding your eye. Yeah. Look at Luke. Keep looking. Loved every minute, you said.

The second time I saw that scene, I was trying to tell if that was a puppet or CGI. I couldn't tell because it was so well crafted. Either way, the studio paid dozens of people hundreds of thousands of dollars for scores of hours of work to get that one gross out gag.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I wonder how many Walrus Teats action figures they need to sell to recoup their investment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Then again, the novel Walrus Teats: Collision Course, which explains the background and personal struggle of Walrus Teats, will probably be a NYT Bestseller with tie-in video game, so it's all good.

And I HATED TPM and AotC when they came out. I did like RotS enough at the time to rank it above RotJ, but my opinion of it has declined over time. I don't recall anyone in person saying that the prequels were anything other than mediocre at best. Cool visuals, maybe a decent fight, but excessively childish.

I genuinely don't understand the praise for George Lucas and disdain for Disney's comedy bits when Lucas did the following:

Special edition RotJ burlesque show
Ewoks...ever
Greedo shot first...for reasons
Jar Jar Binks
Constant poop jokes
Screw it, all of TPM. "Are you an angel?" "Now THIS IS podracing!" Anakin blowing up the control ship, racist characters, etc.

AotC - Deathsticks, I hate sand-it gets everywhere, Backflipping Yoda

RotS - Yoda AND Sidious do backflips now. Oh, and the terrible Mustafar fight that devolved into a glowstick dance.

And he also signed off on the Clone Wars being made. 19% RT and 68 million Box Office (okay it was only a 9mil budget), but still.

Hell, Lucas intended to just use Star Wars sequels (and let others direct) as a revenue stream for his "real" films, but panicked after TESB had a lower box office.

TLDR: It's pretty safe to say that while he may be the "creator" I don't think he really cared all that much.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
... gross out gag.

.

I'm confused... What was gross about it? Do people honestly have issues with the idea that milk comes from animals?

 insaniak wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
... gross out gag.

.

I'm confused... What was gross about it? Do people honestly have issues with the idea that milk comes from animals?

But...its GREEN.

 insaniak wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
... gross out gag.

.

I'm confused... What was gross about it? Do people honestly have issues with the idea that milk comes from animals?

First of all, it wasn't pasteurized.

Second...sigh.

You may not have been grossed out by it, but the existence and timing of the scene, from panning to the udders to the milking to Luke swigging and offering the green milk to Rey, argue against it being a part of either character's arc or important plot exposition. Therefore the reasonable conclusion is that it was framed and paced differently from surrounding scenes because it was inserted as a comedy beat in the middle of Luke's mountain man montage. But there's nothing funny about a man drinking milk unless he does a spit take or it is disgusting in some way. He doesn't do a spit take, so by the process of elimination, it's a gross out gag. If you didn't find it funny then you are among those rarified ranks of people who thought the humor didn't land in this movie. Congratulations!

But yeah, it was a gross out gag, even if not a good one. Welcome to film making in the 2010's.

Meh, I just took it as a part of showing his off-the-grid lifestyle, and a fun nod back to the blue milk in ANH.

 insaniak wrote:
Meh, I just took it as a part of showing his off-the-grid lifestyle, and a fun nod back to the blue milk in ANH.

It was also those things.


Like, if they showed him wiping his butt with purple seaweed, it would demonstrate his off the grid lifestyle, and be a fun nod back to the existence of the Special Editions, but it would also be gross and likely only included if it was meant to be funny.

The milking scene was unexpected, but honestly if it were a feral cow he milked and drank from everyone would be going "where the heck did they get a freaking cow? Seriously it should have been some strange alien thing"