The Last Jedi - Movie Discussion - WARNING - Guaranteed Spoilers Within

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**gorgon**

Formosa wrote:
Cinema score is utterly laughable as a source, they poll people on opening night, that's it, no reviews or anything, just a poll, I trust reading through actual viewer reviews, it's easy to distinguish nerd rage and an actual issue that people have, can't do that with cinema score.

Cinemascore is an actual exit poll, unlike online polls and reviews. That means it consists solely of people who have actually seen the film, making it far more valuable to studios as a basic benchmark than other methods. It doesn't provide actual reviews or any granularity to its scoring...but that's obvious and understood.

People are free to like the movie or not, but the fact is that exit polls show a positive response with general audiences.

trexmeyer wrote:
Did people actually watch the movie?

Rey's power is explained, quite clearly, by Snoke. He says (not verbatim) that he knew a light side power would emerge to match Kylo Ren's darkness and that he assumed it would be Luke, but it turned out to be Rey. Sure, you can choose to dislike that explanation, but saying that it wasn't explained makes you look extremely foolish when it is spelled out so freaking clearly.

Thank you, I was just going to mention that. Now, people may find that to be an unsatisfying explanation, but it's addressed at least briefly in the script.

EDIT: I would have been fine with a little more meat around with certain subplots. Personally, I thought that the 2:30 flew by, so another 10 minutes wouldn't have harmed the film. *shrug*

**BobtheInquisitor**

reds8n wrote:

Wasn't Luke on the planet of the Original Jedi Temple? (Not to be confused with Orginal Rey's.). Do they not have any history books or files from the 25,000 years of republic before the Empire? Or did Luke somehow delete the knowledge of one of the galaxy's most important historic sites?

If Luke didn't the Empire most certainly did remember.

One supposes that it's no more realistic than, say, Han Solo not believing in the force despite, you know, 25,000 years or so of there being quite a lot of evidence for it existing.

One might even think that Chewbacca might maybe have mentioned that it is indeed true and that he met/knew quite a few jedi and so forth.

I'm still somewhat dubious that Leia and Han would'be named their first born/only ..( right ? Guess there still could be an unknown twin somewhere or whathaveyou...) after Ben Kenobi given that they didn't really know him at all...

.. don't think Leia even met him -- birth aside perhaps -- and it never struck me that Han seemed terribly fond of him, didn;t seemed phased by his death at all for example.

I guess he was instrumental in bringing them together and it would be awkward to name your child Death Star or Detention Level Trash Compactor.

I was a bit confused about the master code breaker....

after the person was identified --- guy with the jewelery bit on -- it looked to me as if he was oblivious but his companion/lady with him seemed to do a " double take"/similar .... and then they're never mentioned again ?

I was thinking they'he/she would turn up later -- perhaps even to break Finn & Rose out of jail -- or something but it all just seemed to fizzle out.

The sidequest was indeed the weakest part of the film but it was really odd how it all just fizzled out as it did...

... just happens to be an equally as good ..? ... criminal locked in the same cell as them ..?

I know there's always been a degree of luck/force destiny -- robots exploding at the right time -- RIP Skippy http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Skippy_the_Jedi_Droid -- but that seemed a bit too convenient.

So much so one wonders if there was an aborted other plotline somewhere here -- I've seen some talk about whether del Toro really was the master code guy after all and similar.

I am sure that the master code breaker we see, who so...impressed...Maz with his skills, was a play on 007. And then your expectations. Were. Subverted!

**Compel**

The 'destiny in place of coincidence' point kinda fails too, considering the whole mission involving the 'codebreaker' fails.

It was destiny for you to find this shifty backstabbing codebreaker that gets half the resistance killed.

Err... Destiny is kinda a douche then.

**Xenomancers**

Hated the movie but Benico Del Toro's character did not know how to break First order codes - that just wouldn't make any sense. He is just a swindler. He secretly contacted the FO and they paid him off to deliver them. They pretty much give you this information - "only the code breaker can break the code". How hard could that have been to explain during the scene Benico confessed to outing them to the first order?

"You guys fell for it...How could you be so dumb to think I...a random dude in a jail cell - could break first order codes?"

**Galef**

Yeah, lots of people missed Snoke's explanation of why Rey is so powerful. She is the Yin to Kylo's Yang. No further explanation is needed (even if it is wanted)

Another thing that kills me is how sooooooo many people are saying Luke has been in exile for like 20-30 years. That is simple false. We know roughly 30 yrs have passed since RotJ and that in that time, Ben Solo was born and grew to a young man. So at least 20 years right there.

Luke has been on Ach-To for less than a decade.
This is further confirmed by some canon novels (Aftermath, I think) that place Kylo's turn to the dark side only around 6 yrs before TFA.

-

**Xenomancers**

Galef wrote:
Yeah, lots of people missed Snoke's explanation of why Rey is so powerful. She is the Yin to Kylo's Yang. No further explanation is needed (even if it is wanted)

Another thing that kills me is how sooooooo many people are saying Luke has been in exile for like 20-30 years. That is simple false. We know roughly 30 yrs have passed since RotJ and that in that time, Ben Solo was born and grew to a young man. So at least 20 years right there.

Luke has been on Ach-To for less than a decade.
This is further confirmed by some canon novels (Aftermath, I think) that place Kylo's turn to the dark side only around 6 yrs before TFA.

-

Snoke expecting a "yin to the yang" does not explain Rey as Rey the marysue. If there is ment to be a balance then why did Rey beat Kylo with no training? That is peoples issue. Not that she has the potential. The timescale is pretty easy to surmise as you have pointed out - I'm not sure why anyone would think Luke has been gone longer than 15 years even if they hadn't read any books.

**Galef**

Xenomancers wrote:
If there is ment to be a balance then why did Rey beat Kylo with no training? That is peoples issue.

Well as far as TFA is concerned, several things were going on there:
A) Kylo had just killed his father and we know that had a deep affect on him
B) He was probably already dying, afterall he just got shot in the gut by a weapon that was previously shown to hurl armoured Stormtroopers halfway across the screen
C) I mean, just look how badly he is sweating in that scene....in the cold

So Rey beating Kylo in TFA is not only believable, but it is actually a feat to see Kylo even standing, much less fighting.
It is also important to note the Rey does not directly fight Kylo in TLJ, just the Force "tug-of-war" on the light saber, which we already know has "chosen" Rey. So Kylo could still be more powerful, but the force is working against him in that case.

I guess that's why I rarely have really big issues with so called "plot-holes". I tend to pick up on clues left by the film makers, or have my own "head canon" rolling around in my brain at any given time, thus "plot-holes" rarely appear that way for me.
Also, TLJ is only Act II. I challenge anyone to pull out just the Act II of any story with a 3 Act structure and claim it can stand on its own. (even ESB needs the 'book ends' to be the classic that it is)

-

**Kaiyanwang**

Rey beating Kylo in TFA completely ruins the saga. It transforms it in a nonsense.
Kylo destroyed Luke dream and sent him to hiding. Dark side is fueled by pain and hatred. The points listed in case would HELP him in a fight. Is such a nonsense.
Luke is scared of the guy. Snoke is dead and now Kylo is in charge. But everything is cheapened because the showdown that supposedly should happen between Kylo and a trained Rey already happened in TFA. This destroys Rey's arc and kills most motivations she could have.
Is not a matter of plot-holes (these sequels are plagued by holes; but this is not on of them). Is a matter of inconsistencies and faulty buildup.
You want a proof of this? Look at Rey motivations. Everything is centred about herself. There is no sense of revenge, hop for justice or redemption, because everything is so incoherently put together. One just does not care about what will happen.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

gorgon wrote:

Cinemascore is an actual exit poll, unlike online polls and reviews. That means it consists solely of people who have actually seen the film, making it far more valuable to studios as a basic benchmark than other methods. It doesn't provide actual reviews or any granularity to its scoring...but that's obvious and understood.

People are free to like the movie or not, but the fact is that exit polls show a positive response with general audiences.

In other words, you only count data that supports your thesis.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

trexmeyer wrote:
Did people actually watch the movie?

Rey's power is explained, quite clearly, by Snoke. He says (not verbatim) that he knew a light side power would emerge to match Kylo Ren's darkness and that he assumed it would be Luke, but it turned out to be Rey. Sure, you can choose to dislike that explanation, but saying that it wasn't explained makes you look extremely foolish when it is spelled out so freaking clearly.

One is not necessarily forced to accept such dumb explanation. This is something pulled from the authors' behind. Is not a matter only of tastes, but of good or bad world-building.
Tip: this is bad world-building.

**Mr Morden**

There is no "World building" going on the TLJ just a reset button to where the first Star Wars film started.

There a few action scenes joined together losely by poorly drawn characters and a shocklingly thin plot and some marketing execs desire for a Casino scene - in fact I bet that was the first meeting to sort out the film.

"Yeah have some fighting with those light sword things and stuff but we need to have a really long casino sequence. No I don't care why - just have one."

**gorgon**

Xenomancers wrote:
Galef wrote:
Yeah, lots of people missed Snoke's explanation of why Rey is so powerful. She is the Yin to Kylo's Yang. No further explanation is needed (even if it is wanted)

Another thing that kills me is how sooooooo many people are saying Luke has been in exile for like 20-30 years. That is simple false. We know roughly 30 yrs have passed since RotJ and that in that time, Ben Solo was born and grew to a young man. So at least 20 years right there.

Luke has been on Ach-To for less than a decade.
This is further confirmed by some canon novels (Aftermath, I think) that place Kylo's turn to the dark side only around 6 yrs before TFA.

-

Snoke expecting a "yin to the yang" does not explain Rey as Rey the marysue. If there is ment to be a balance then why did Rey beat Kylo with no training? That is peoples issue. Not that she has the potential. The timescale is pretty easy to surmise as you have pointed out - I'm not sure why anyone would think Luke has been gone longer than 15 years even if they hadn't read any books.

I think people forget about Obi-Wan's explanation to Luke.

"You mean it controls your actions?"
"Partially. But it also obeys your commands."

Plenty of room there for a reasonable assumption that the LS is assisting Rey, its chosen one, in her duels. Superfans may have the various saber fighting styles in their head, along with the expectation that wielding one proficiently takes years of practice. However, the OT shows Jedi skills to be much more about intuition, instinct and flow than grinding classroom or practical work.

We don't see Luke doing even a bit of sparring with Yoda in TESB. But even if he did, a few weeks of practice was apparently enough for him to be able to battle Vader fairly proficiently. I'm not sure why fans can make allowances for Luke, but not for Rey.

**Xenomancers**

Galef wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
If there is ment to be a balance then why did Rey beat Kylo with no training? That is peoples issue.

Well as far as TFA is concerned, several things were going on there:
A) Kylo had just killed his father and we know that had a deep affect on him
B) He was probably already dying, afterall he just got shot in the gut by a weapon that was previously shown to hurl armoured Stormtroopers halfway across the screen
C) I mean, just look how badly he is sweating in that scene....in the cold

So Rey beating Kylo in TFA is not only believable, but it is actually a feat to see Kylo even standing, much less fighting.
It is also important to note the Rey does not directly fight Kylo in TLJ, just the Force "tug-of-war" on the light saber, which we already know has "chosen" Rey. So Kylo could still be more powerful, but the force is working against him in that case.

I guess that's why I rarely have really big issues with so called "plot-holes". I tend to pick up on clues left by the film makers, or have my own "head canon" rolling around in my brain at any given time, thus "plot-holes" rarely appear that way for me.
Also, TLJ is only Act II. I challenge anyone to pull out just the Act II of any story with a 3 Act structure and claim it can stand on its own. (even ESB needs the 'book ends' to be the classic that it is)

-

Good points - they just don't satisfy me. In my life I've seen mortally wounded heros/villians do great things. Maximus for example defeated Commodus in the colleseum while being stabbed in the back through the lung! So a force weilder who obviously weakened the blow from the laser crossbow with force magic (otherwise he'd be dead and blown off that narrow bridge) should be able to as well. Also - if he is emotionally distressed to the point it affects his ability - how is he able to blast Rey effortlessly with a force push? How was he able to catch up with Rey and Finn? Where did Chubacka go? AHH!!! This new series just drives me nutts.

Then - even more silly - in TLJ which is like maybe 3-4 days after TFA (because Finn is still injured from being light saber raked) Kylo isn't in any way affected by being shot in the abdomen by something comparable in power to a grenade launcher but his cut on his face still hasn't healed. So I think it's pretty clear by what we are seeing in the film Kylo is not mortally wounded by that cross bow - it has less of a lasting affect as a cutt on his face.

I really can't remember but in the Kylo shirtless scene did he have any noticeable scars or bandages on his chest?

**Manchu**

Yes, I think that was at least part of the point of having him shirtless - so that Rey could see the big scar she left on him, which humanizes him a bit in her eyes as well as reminds her (and the audience) that they have some history already. Of course, it's also done to create some puzzling sexual tension between them.

Snoke's line about light rising to meet darkness isn't an explanation, really. Actually, the line itself is yet another thing that requires explanation. Is that really how the Force works? According to who? Since when? Is Luke a response to Vader and is Ben a response to Luke, if Rey is a response to Ben? Is this something that only started recently? Is that the Awakening? Is it speeding up? Should we expect a new bad guy to arise in response to Rey now?

@reds8n

As Bob pointed out, I think del Toro's part was designed (ultimately) to push the theme of Expect X But Receive Y, where X = things work out and Y = things get fethed. But I very much agree it was all confusing. I am not sure why Finn got a lecture about moral relativism, especially right after Rose just gave him a lecture on morality, too. None of this stuff sets up any conflict that Finn must resolve as part of his arc. I honestly don't know that Finn even has an arc in this movie.

**Xenomancers**

gorgon wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Galef wrote:
Yeah, lots of people missed Snoke's explanation of why Rey is so powerful. She is the Yin to Kylo's Yang. No further explanation is needed (even if it is wanted)

Another thing that kills me is how sooooooo many people are saying Luke has been in exile for like 20-30 years. That is simple false. We know roughly 30 yrs have passed since RotJ and that in that time, Ben Solo was born and grew to a young man. So at least 20 years right there.

Luke has been on Ach-To for less than a decade.
This is further confirmed by some canon novels (Aftermath, I think) that place Kylo's turn to the dark side only around 6 yrs before TFA.

-

Snoke expecting a "yin to the yang" does not explain Rey as Rey the marysue. If there is ment to be a balance then why did Rey beat Kylo with no training? That is peoples issue. Not that she has the potential. The timescale is pretty easy to surmise as you have pointed out - I'm not sure why anyone would think Luke has been gone longer than 15 years even if they hadn't read any books.

I think people forget about Obi-Wan's explanation to Luke.

"You mean it controls your actions?"
"Partially. But it also obeys your commands."

Plenty of room there for a reasonable assumption that the LS is assisting Rey, its chosen one, in her duels. Superfans may have the various saber fighting styles in their head, along with the expectation that wielding one proficiently takes years of practice. However, the OT shows Jedi skills to be much more about intuition, instinct and flow than grinding classroom or practical work.

We don't see Luke doing even a bit of sparring with Yoda in TESB. But even if he did, a few weeks of practice was apparently enough for him to be able to battle Vader fairly proficiently. I'm not sure why fans can make allowances for Luke, but not for Rey.

Luke went through his trials on Dagobah - no reference to time here. I'm not completely satisfied but at least an attempt was made to show training for what was probably a few weeks. In the prequels they talk a lot about Anakens rise in power through training. Specifically we see the affect on training when Luke fights Vader a second time and when Anaken fights Duku a second time. Both times the lesser experienced fighter gets their hand cutt off in the first fight and in the second fight they show improvement after additional training and they win the next duel. Both of these characters were "the chosen one" also. It just further reinforces the Marysue Rey. She is just better than Luke and Anaken (basically the forces version of Jesus) because the director demands it.

**Manchu**

Well, becuase the studio demands it, but yeah.

**Xenomancers**

Manchu wrote:
Yes, I think that was at least part of the point of having him shirtless - so that Rey could see the big scar she left on him, which humanizes him a bit in her eyes as well as reminds her (and the audience) that they have some history already. Of course, it's also done to create some puzzling sexual tension between them.

Snoke's line about light rising to meet darkness isn't an explanation, really. Actually, the line itself is yet another thing that requires explanation. Is that really how the Force works? According to who? Since when? Is Luke a response to Vader and is Ben a response to Luke, if Rey is a response to Ben? Is this something that only started recently? Is that the Awakening? Is it speeding up? Should we expect a new bad guy to arise in response to Rey now?

@reds8n

As Bob pointed out, I think del Toro's part was designed (ultimately) to push the theme of Expect X But Receive Y, where X = things work out and Y = things get fethed. But I very much agree it was all confusing. I am not sure why Finn got a lecture about moral relativism, especially right after Rose just gave him a lecture on morality, too. None of this stuff sets up any conflict that Finn must resolve as part of his arc. I honestly don't know that Finn even has an arc in this movie.

Ofc the force is wrapped in mystery. The whole prophecy that Anaken will bring balance to the force has to come back at some time or another. This line from snoke is a call to that balance. Maybe Luke calling for the Jedi to die actually makes sense. If the light and the dark feed off of each other to attain balance - the only way to destroy the dark side is to destroy the light. You know what? If only it was Luke that was saying this instead of me - I'd be really happy about it. We are left scratching our heads about what the force really is and how it works after 8 episodes - really just more questions at this point. When you make a 7-8-9 sequal to a 6 part episode that left a lot of unanswered questions - you should probably answer more questions than you raise in order for the story to be any good.

**gorgon**

Manchu wrote:
Snoke's line about light rising to meet darkness isn't an explanation, really. Actually, the line itself is yet another thing that requires explanation. Is that really how the Force works? According to who? Since when? Is Luke a response to Vader and is Ben a response to Luke, if Rey is a response to Ben? Is this something that only started recently? Is that the Awakening? Is it speeding up? Should we expect a new bad guy to arise is response to Rey now?

See, I don't think the filmmaker is on the hook to explain anything beyond the simple concepts stated by Snoke and Luke in the film. It doesn't seem genuinely important to this narrative.

And my personal feelings on the matter is that the Force is a much better concept the more mysterious and mystical it remains.

**AllSeeingSkink**

The Snoke line about Rey and balance just seemed like an afterthought. Like someone brought up toward the end of writing the script that Rey's character arc was somewhere between poorly written and non-existent; so instead of fixing it they just patched in a line about "the force did it".

When you build up a question in a story (why is Rey who she is) it's not enough to answer the question but it should be answered well and at least feel consistent with the half dozen other films in the series; not as if it's some poorly written fan fiction about a marysue.

**Kilkrazy**

The revelation that Vader was Luke's father (explaining his Force force) came at the end of film 4.

If Rey's mother was revealed as Snoke's wife at the start of film 9, would that satisfy?

**Kaiyanwang**

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
The Snoke line about Rey and balance just seemed like an afterthought. Like someone brought up toward the end of writing the script that Rey's character arc was somewhere between poorly written and non-existent; so instead of fixing it they just patched in a line about "the force did it".

This was blatant backtracking and yet another clear sign that the writing is awful.

**Manchu**

Kilkrazy wrote:
The revelation that Vader was Luke's father (explaining his Force force) came at the end of film 4.

Nope, Obi-Wan tells Luke his father was a Jedi Knight in the first act of the first movie.

**LordofHats**

gorgon wrote:

trexmeyer wrote:
Did people actually watch the movie?

Rey's power is explained, quite clearly, by Snoke. He says (not verbatim) that he knew a light side power would emerge to match Kylo Ren's darkness and that he assumed it would be Luke, but it turned out to be Rey. Sure, you can choose to dislike that explanation, but saying that it wasn't explained makes you look extremely foolish when it is spelled out so freaking clearly.

Thank you, I was just going to mention that. Now, people may find that to be an unsatisfying explanation, but it's addressed at least briefly in the script.

I think there's a very clear distinction between having power and being able to use it. I never had a problem with Rey having power, but as of TLJ I think they're really stretching it with how much she is able to use it despite her education basically consisting of essentially nothing. The Star Wars universe basically runs on Mary Sue characters, but most of them still had to be trained to stand up to all the other Mary Sues running around in universe.

**Xenomancers**

Manchu wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:
The revelation that Vader was Luke's father (explaining his Force force) came at the end of film 4.
Nope, Obi-Wan tells Luke his father was a Jedi Knight in the first act of the first movie.

Beat me to it. Plus! we were given this absolutely crap explanation that Rey's parents are common junk salesmen - though this might not be true (it's possible Rey's memories are implanted or something) it's still crap.

**sirlynchmob**

Kilkrazy wrote:
The revelation that Vader was Luke's father (explaining his Force force) came at the end of film 4.

If Rey's mother was revealed as Snoke's wife at the start of film 9, would that satisfy?

Nope, but that would be a tad better than the prequels line of "there was no father". Which really just leads me to believe ani's mom was raped by a jedi then mind tricked to forget it happened. But not even chosen boy could control the force without years of training

being Disney though, odds are rey's really just an orphan with no parents of note. I'm actually surprising her parents got away on the shuttle and it didn't blow up on launch.

**Xenomancers**

sirlynchmob wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:
The revelation that Vader was Luke's father (explaining his Force force) came at the end of film 4.

If Rey's mother was revealed as Snoke's wife at the start of film 9, would that satisfy?

Nope, but that would be a tad better than the prequels line of "there was no father". Which really just leads me to believe ani's mom was raped by a jedi then mind tricked to forget it happened. But not even chosen boy could control the force without years of training

being Disney though, odds are rey's really just an orphan with no parents of note. I'm actually surprising her parents got away on the shuttle and it didn't blow up on launch.

Nah man you totally missed it. Quigon explains everything you need to know about Anakens virgin birth. He says he was conceived by the mediclorians (this is actaully cannon) and it was the will of the force for him to find him - this was foretold in some kind of Jedi Legend that the masters are always talking about in the prequels.

It's possible Rey was born the same way and her parents never told her. It might even explain why she was abandoned. There is no reason why we haven't figured out her true origin in this series yet though. It's just terrible story telling. I honestly don't think they knew when the wrote this what happens next. They are just making it up as it goes.

**AllSeeingSkink**

Kilkrazy wrote:
The revelation that Vader was Luke's father (explaining his Force force) came at the end of film 4.

If Rey's mother was revealed as Snoke's wife at the start of film 9, would that satisfy?

Nope, you misunderstand the point if you think that'll satisfy.

Luke had a character arc throughout the movies of doubt, learning, failure, growth, etc. We didn't need to know Vader was Luke's father from perspective of explaining why Luke is the hero, Luke had the capability (and was already well on his way) to being a fleshed out character without the need for the father backstory. The revelation added to the story itself, it wasn't trying to plug what would otherwise have been a hole in the story. We didn't need an explanation of why Luke could do the things he could do because his growth was actually shown, TLJ needing to say "Rey is growing because the story needs her to grow and we didn't write in proper character growth" is a flaw specific to TLJ.

A protagonist that grows from nothing is not a hurdle to having them be relatable and likable, in fact it usually helps. That's not one of Rey's problems.

**Overread**

It's kind of interesting how the main theme of the film was about the past not mattering and trying to let go of the shackles of history and yet one of the biggest gripes now being aired in the thread is that people want to be shackled to the past as such - that Rey's past defines her as a character.

I think that we can honestly make it through the whole series never knowing for sure who her parent are. Considering that Force Powers are not known to follow bloodlines perfectly anyway and that the Force is not bound by blood in the same way that our genetics are; there is no reason for Rey to be related to anyone important. Indeed junkers with no real history to them are just as valid as if her parents are someone important already established within the series.

Either way it changes little of who she is as a character since she grew up without them. It's important to HER but not to the greater story as such.

I think Snokes history is more important to the story because we lack the growth of him into what he is as a character and how he gained power etc... but for Rey we already know the bulk of her history.

**Voss**

gorgon wrote:
Manchu wrote:
Snoke's line about light rising to meet darkness isn't an explanation, really. Actually, the line itself is yet another thing that requires explanation. Is that really how the Force works? According to who? Since when? Is Luke a response to Vader and is Ben a response to Luke, if Rey is a response to Ben? Is this something that only started recently? Is that the Awakening? Is it speeding up? Should we expect a new bad guy to arise is response to Rey now?

See, I don't think the filmmaker is on the hook to explain anything beyond the simple concepts stated by Snoke and Luke in the film. It doesn't seem genuinely important to this narrative.

Well, that's the problem. Nothing seems important to this narrative. Its why this film dead ends. It raises no issues, leaves no hooks. It just stops in the exact scenario it started with.
About the only thing that changed at all is Poe learned to waffle- start an action, get people killed, then abandon the action rather than see it through.

Overread wrote:It's kind of interesting how the main theme of the film was about the past not mattering and trying to let go of the shackles of history

Some of the characters do claim that on behalf of Johnson, but it isn't even vaguely true. Skywalker heirs (blood heirs or otherwise) refighting the old struggle between Empire and Rebels is the only thing going on.

**Alpharius**

Overread wrote:
It's kind of interesting how the main theme of the film was about the past not mattering and trying to let go of the shackles of history and yet one of the biggest gripes now being aired in the thread is that people want to be shackled to the past as such - that Rey's past defines her as a character.

Especially as TLJ ends with a very Hoth-esque set piece. (Except not snow, as we are *very* clearly told that it is..salt!

)

Maybe Disney should practice what they may or may not have been preaching?

**Overread**

Alpharius wrote:
(Except not snow, as we are *very* clearly told that it is..salt! )

I think that the red salt effect during the battle along with the designs of units and such made for a fantastically beautiful bit of cinema. Even though I get the huge feeling that someone made the salt red to

1) Make it stand out far more than white salt/snow would have

2) Have a huge finger at the ratings people - because lets face it it looks just like digital blood (just as if they were playing dawn of war or Warhammer TW with the amount of "blood" flying around).

I still rank the hyperspace strike and salt battle as really stunning bits of work (hyperspace strike is sitting 1 step behind Homeworld for - truely awesome bits of space in my view)

**AllSeeingSkink**

Overread wrote:
It's kind of interesting how the main theme of the film was about the past not mattering and trying to let go of the shackles of history and yet one of the biggest gripes now being aired in the thread is that people want to be shackled to the past as such - that Rey's past defines her as a character.

No, the gripe is that Rey by herself doesn't have much depth as a character. The depth could be developed through the movie itself or revealed through past events (like it was with Kylo), but instead she's just left as a shallow character who can do stuff because she needs to be able to do it for the story to work rather than from any actual character development.