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Odd part is Shakespears influence wouldn't become apparent untill later.

Indeed as second part of a trilogy a lot of stands or falls with the next movie. I have been doing a bit reading trough this thread And it leads me to conclude that while I can ignore the many minor flaws of the movie and enjoy it others can't.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 AlexHolker wrote:
If anyone wants to listen to a thorough dismantling of The Last Jedi, MauLer has finished putting out a five hour critique of the movie. Part 1 Part 2 Part 3

That's twice as long as the actual film.

Yoda wrote:A life to get, someone needs.

I'm kind of impressed that someone takes it so seriously as to put in this much effort. At another level, though, it looks obsessive.

One might think if the film actually was that bad it would be easily demolished in a much shorter piece.

You seem to forget that this franchise changed filmmaking and influenced an entire generation. There was a reason $4 billion for it was considered quite a bargain. It has a cultural impact that rivals Shakespeare's, at least for one generation, and no one would balk at a critic spending 5 hours breaking down Twelfth Night.

The film has been demolished left and right in much more concise pieces. Why should criticism be limited so?

It has also been widely praised in much more succinct format, but of course that is only because Disney paid off all the critics.

We are still left with the central contradiction that the same plot, scenes and dialogue are viewed oppositely by different groups of people.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 AlexHolker wrote:
If anyone wants to listen to a thorough dismantling of The Last Jedi, MauLer has finished putting out a five hour critique of the movie. Part 1 Part 2 Part 3

That's twice as long as the actual film.

Yoda wrote:A life to get, someone needs.

I'm kind of impressed that someone takes it so seriously as to put in this much effort. At another level, though, it looks obsessive.

One might think if the film actually was that bad it would be easily demolished in a much shorter piece.

You seem to forget that this franchise changed filmmaking and influenced an entire generation. There was a reason $4 billion for it was considered quite a bargain. It has a cultural impact that rivals Shakespeare's, at least for one generation, and no one would balk at a critic spending 5 hours breaking down Twelfth Night.

The film has been demolished left and right in much more concise pieces. Why should criticism be limited so?

It has also been widely praised in much more succinct format, but of course that is only because Disney paid off all the critics.

We are still left with the central contradiction that the same plot, scenes and dialogue are viewed oppositely by different groups of people.

For example, apparently the problem with Rey as a character is that she never has to overcome any challenges, so she is rubbish, yet from my viewing of the films she overcomes many challenges.

I don't believe we are fundamentally viewing things differently so much as weighing the same things differently. Rey may face challenges, but doesn't have a character arc defined by facing internal challenges to overcome external challenges, at least not to the extent considered Star Wars standard.

For me, the weirdest thing with Rey was how she was totally absent from any scenes immediately after the hyperspace impact. She's in the throne room, struggling over the lightsaber, and then bam! A few minutes later, Kylo wakes up and is informed she's gone. Next time we see her she's merrily blasting TIEs above Crait without an emotional care in the world, as if that whole throne room battle sequence happened to someone else.

I'm almost through the whole review now (well, okay, an hour to go) and I'm nodding along generally, though he really is belabouring many of the points. I'm also finding the video game footage distracting and sometime follow it and realise I've missed 20 seconds or so of his monologue.

I'd prefer a Plinkett review (I assume there will be one), but I remember at the time the first one appeared it was slated for being over long (Was it about an hour? I forget). And to add to the "what's the point" nerdery - a user on SD.net, which I used to peruse, wrote a huge point-by-point rebuttal in defence of TPM (I never read it but there's a link here).

http://www.thestarwarstrilogy.com/starwars/post/2014/09/03/The-108-page-rebuttal-to-Mr-Plinketts-Phantom-Menace-review

Clearly there are (fine) people on both sides who can have the accusation of having too much time on their hands thrown at them.

 Kilkrazy wrote:


For example, apparently the problem with Rey as a character is that she never has to overcome any challenges, so she is rubbish, yet from my viewing of the films she overcomes many challenges.

Can you please name some?

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I don't believe we are fundamentally viewing things differently so much as weighing the same things differently. Rey may face challenges, but doesn't have a character arc defined by facing internal challenges to overcome external challenges, at least not to the extent considered Star Wars standard.

I think you are absolutely right.

There are some people with a particular appreciation of a "Star Wars" standard of challenges, and I'm not one of them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:


For example, apparently the problem with Rey as a character is that she never has to overcome any challenges, so she is rubbish, yet from my viewing of the films she overcomes many challenges.

Can you please name some?

Overcomes life on a harsh desert planet as a scavenger for 10+ years.
Escapes the First Order.
Contacts Han Solo and gets him to like her.
Resolves some technical problems on the Falcon.
Evades the First Order again.
Participates in the successful mission to destroy the Death Star Planet.
Defeats Ren Stimpy in the snow forest.

That's just the first film. She does a ton more stuff in the second one.

But those are not presented as conflicted challenges. Rey has nothing like that.
She just... kind of does that, when the plot demands it.
To escape Tatooine Luke needs Obi-one, is saved by Han etc. Rey saves herself.
Just take, as an example, her action of defeating Emo Ren. She did not start the movie with a true introduction to the force and a desire to learn more.. her interest kind of comes half-hearted as a consequence of what she did.
Luke defeats Vader at the end of the OT, and is tempted by the dark side up the very end. And has to go through a major defeat in ESB, and must be saved by his friends, before the final maturation and victory.
Same with the technical problem on the falcon. Because of Rey's background is less obnoxious and actually could make sense, but it adds up to her never failing whatsoever in anything, while not being really emotionally and morally invested in her successes. On top of that, she solves the problem in front of the OWNER of the ship. This makes the scene very different compared to, say, just solving the problem in a situation in which she was there only with Finn and Poe.

Luke couldn't even save himself from some Tuskan Raiders, Rey just casually battles stormtroopers and being shot at by TIE fighters without breaking too much of a sweat.

And again, he needed Yoda to get his x-wing out of the swap.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:


For example, apparently the problem with Rey as a character is that she never has to overcome any challenges, so she is rubbish, yet from my viewing of the films she overcomes many challenges.

Can you please name some?

Overcomes life on a harsh desert planet as a scavenger for 10+ years.
Escapes the First Order.
Contacts Han Solo and gets him to like her.
Resolves some technical problems on the Falcon.
Evades the First Order again.
Participates in the successful mission to destroy the Death Star Planet.
Defeats Ren Stimpy in the snow forest.

That's just the first film. She does a ton more stuff in the second one.

In none of these is she actually challenged, nor does she actually make any choices that put here there. It comes across less as her being challenged, and more the writers showing off how "Awesome" their OC is. We are left with a character who doesn't really have any motivation to do any protagonist stuff, and just ends up in scenes which she effortlessly blazes through.

Yeah, Rey is for the most part a flawless character. That naturally makes me dislike her If she gets offed at the start of the next movie I'll laugh with glee rather than feeling sad.

She's one of those characters that make me want the bad guys to win.

Luke struggled through his journey to become a Jedi and that's what makes him awesome. Even if we mere mortals can't relate to his specific journey, we can relate to his struggles in a general sense, his mistakes, his growth, his learning. Rey ends her encounter with Snoke and Kylo with her kicking arse in the falcon as if her previous scene hadn't even happened, Luke's encounter with Vader in ESB ends with him being distraught and broken hanging from an aerial with a hand missing and needing to reach out to Leia to save him.

In general I haven't agreed with folk who have said the Disney series is more childish, but when it comes to character development I reckon it is. As a child I would have been happy with such a kick arse hero, as an adult such a character just comes across as shallow as best and unlikable at worst. Childish character development doesn't just apply to Rey, the "lessons" learned by other characters in this film also seem really basic.

I mostly liked Rey in TFA. By the end of TLJ, I no longer cared about her. Of course, neither did the script.

I've mostly been indifferent toward her, I don't like her don't hate her and never really cared about her.

I think Disney have missed one of the main things about writing a hero; they should have flaws, internal struggles and make mistakes - just like real people.

If anything flawlessness is a better trait to give the villain, because then it gives the audience an extra reason to dislike them.

Folks love an underdog.

No flawless villains are boring and hoorrible writing because they are invinciblke but inevetably aren't because the heroes need to win. Remember all the memes of failbaddon the armless, that's what you get when you try to write a flawless villain. The seeds of their demise should be setup from the get go. We know in ANH that is possible if unlikely the rebels may find a flaw. The abilities of the death star are insignificant compared to the power of the force.

Rey has a flaw: abandonment issues. Her parents deserted her so she jumps headlong into any sense of belonging she can get. It sets her in complete opposition to Kylo Ren who had everything she wanted.

.

 Earth127 wrote:
No flawless villains are boring and hoorrible writing because they are invinciblke

I'd argue flawless characters are boring in general, hence Rey being a boring character.

but inevetably aren't because the heroes need to win.

"flawless" is obviously an exaggeration, they need to be defeated at some point. But the perception of flawless is more what I meant; arrogant for good reason (not just arrogant while they keep bumbling around like morons).

Remember all the memes of failbaddon the armless, that's what you get when you try to write a flawless villain.

I never really followed abaddon memes so I'm not really sure what that reference is, but a movie villain doesn't really follow the same rules as a wargaming one. Wargames have to be balanced and they can't just destroy the universe by having one side overwhelm the other. You can write the fluff for a powerful character but at the end of the day they still have roughly a 50% chance of losing in any given game (and if the rules are poorly written it may be even worse than 50%)

Movies can have an imbalance between the good guys and the bad guys, and the bad guys can be completely overwhelming.

Rey has a flaw: abandonment issues.

That's a pathetically weak flaw that just makes her come across like some lost puppy dog. It is barely presented as a struggle and does little to impede her. I didn't really notice it myself but someone pointed out that Rey's weakness is that she's constantly seeking out a parent figure to teach her.... that's not a flaw that's someone who has already learned the value of being guided and taught. If her lesson is that she doesn't actually need to be guided and taught then it's a crap lesson.

Rey can just do what she needs to do when she needs to do it, she doesn't fail, she doesn't have doubts about the cause, others fail around her while she grows rather than failing herself and growing through it.

Yoda tells Luke (I can't remember the exact quote) that he has to learn through failure and pass that on to the next generation which is a bit ironic because that's exactly what Luke did in the OT, it's a lesson he already learned but Rey doesn't even need to learn.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:
But those are not presented as conflicted challenges. Rey has nothing like that.
She just... kind of does that, when the plot demands it.
To escape Tatooine Luke needs Obi-one, is saved by Han etc. Rey saves herself.
Just take, as an example, her action of defeating Emo Ren. She did not start the movie with a true introduction to the force and a desire to learn more.. her interest kind of comes half-hearted as a consequence of what she did.
Luke defeats Vader at the end of the OT, and is tempted by the dark side up the very end. And has to go through a major defeat in ESB, and must be saved by his friends, before the final maturation and victory.
Same with the technical problem on the falcon. Because of Rey's background is less obnoxious and actually could make sense, but it adds up to her never failing whatsoever in anything, while not being really emotionally and morally invested in her successes. On top of that, she solves the problem in front of the OWNER of the ship. This makes the scene very different compared to, say, just solving the problem in a situation in which she was there only with Finn and Poe.

I think what you are saying is wrong.

You asked for examples of challenges, I gave them, then you just say they aren't challenges.

"Rey saves herself."

How is this not overcoming a challenge?

AllSeeingSkink wrote:I'd argue flawless characters are boring in general, hence Rey being a boring character.

I would argue that Rey isn't flawless. She fails to convince Luke to rejoin the Resistance. She fails to persuade Ren not to go to the Dark Side.

I think is a matter of effort and emotional investment.
Especially in the first movie, she just "does" things, better than people you would expect being the best or at least better at it.
I ate breakfast today. Good job Kaiyanwang but I did not grow as a person out of it. Nor I woke up worried about it.
Or the way I ate my breakfast gave away something about my personality, flaws, goals.

People refused to watch the Mauler videos above because they are too long, but there is a good part about Rey, and how much she lacks as a character. Is something that goes beyond the failure.
Luke fails in ESB because is not prepared, but this is correlated to his inexperience, and will to save his friends. As an example, the arrogance part is underplayed. Is not only what happens, but what we can tell about the character from his failures and successes.

Rey fails to convince Luke to rejoin the Resistance, and fails to persuade Ren not to go to the Dark Side. Fine.
What can we know about her from these events?
And how well inserted is this in the framework of the story, and how well written is the care Rey has for the politics, resistance, etc?

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:
But those are not presented as conflicted challenges. Rey has nothing like that.
She just... kind of does that, when the plot demands it.
To escape Tatooine Luke needs Obi-one, is saved by Han etc. Rey saves herself.
Just take, as an example, her action of defeating Emo Ren. She did not start the movie with a true introduction to the force and a desire to learn more.. her interest kind of comes half-hearted as a consequence of what she did.
Luke defeats Vader at the end of the OT, and is tempted by the dark side up the very end. And has to go through a major defeat in ESB, and must be saved by his friends, before the final maturation and victory.
Same with the technical problem on the falcon. Because of Rey's background is less obnoxious and actually could make sense, but it adds up to her never failing whatsoever in anything, while not being really emotionally and morally invested in her successes. On top of that, she solves the problem in front of the OWNER of the ship. This makes the scene very different compared to, say, just solving the problem in a situation in which she was there only with Finn and Poe.

I think what you are saying is wrong.

You asked for examples of challenges, I gave them, then you just say they aren't challenges.

"Rey saves herself."

How is this not overcoming a challenge?

I think we might have a different definition of what we mean when we say "Challenge". The things you refer to as challenges, I'd refer to as plot points. It would be like saying that Luke was challenged when he had to stop that AT-AT. Yeah, for a normal person that would be a challenge. But for our protagonist? It's just something that they have to do. When we say Luke gets challenged, we mean that he is constantly losing, and being saved by other characters, including the villains. So when Luke actually wins, it's worth something. This happens exactly once with Rey, when Kylo Ren decides to use her as bait to kill Snoke.

I understand your point now.

However, I don't feel that way.

To enlarge on my viewpoint, I don't feel that the only acceptable story path for a hero is to fail at a series of physical challenges, be helped by someone else, and eventually succeed.

Why?

Why is this thread still going???

Person A likes it.

Person B hates it.

Person C is somewhere in between.

Person D is pretty much just saying stuff to provoke.

End it. End it please.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Why?

Why is this thread still going???

Person A likes it.

Person B hates it.

Person C is somewhere in between.

Person D is pretty much just saying stuff to provoke.

End it. End it please.

Can you give examples of each person?

Also:
Why is this board still going???

Person A likes 40k.

Person B hates 40k.

Person C is somewhere in between and plays WMH.

Person D is pretty much just saying stuff to provoke deep thoughts about the reole of X in tabletop games.

End it. End it please

Or even
Why is this planet still going???

Person A likes it.

Person B hates it.

Person C is somewhere in between.

Person D is pretty much just saying stuff to provoke.

End it. End it please
Why live? Why exist? Nothing has sense, ever.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I understand your point now.

However, I don't feel that way.

To enlarge on my viewpoint, I don't feel that the only acceptable story path for a hero is to fail at a series of physical challenges, be helped by someone else, and eventually succeed.

I understand your point now.

However, I don't feel that way.

EDIT:
Or, more precisely, I don't feel you're being genuine. There are, indeed, more acceptable story paths for heroes than the one you propose. That doesn't automatically mean that Rey is a good hero. No one ever claimed that Luke's journey is the only journey. They were merely claiming that it was better than Rey's, and they're not wrong. The fact that there are dozens of ways one could write Rey (or Luke, for that matter) that are all quite interesting does not obviate the fact that she is, in fact, not interesting in her current iteration.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Why?

Why is this thread still going???

Person A likes it.

Person B hates it.

Person C is somewhere in between.

Person D is pretty much just saying stuff to provoke.

End it. End it please.

Be the change you want to see?

Don't post in threads that you're not interested in?

Don't even read them if they bother you that much?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I understand your point now.

However, I don't feel that way.

To enlarge on my viewpoint, I don't feel that the only acceptable story path for a hero is to fail at a series of physical challenges, be helped by someone else, and eventually succeed.

I understand your point now.

However, I don't feel that way.

EDIT:
Or, more precisely, I don't feel you're being genuine. There are, indeed, more acceptable story paths for heroes than the one you propose. That doesn't automatically mean that Rey is a good hero. No one ever claimed that Luke's journey is the only journey. They were merely claiming that it was better than Rey's, and they're not wrong. The fact that there are dozens of ways one could write Rey (or Luke, for that matter) that are all quite interesting does not obviate the fact that she is, in fact, not interesting in her current iteration.

Luke's journey isn't better than Rey's, it's different.

It's the difference that apparently a lot of people dislike, but that doesn't make it bad. A lot of people like it.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I understand your point now.

However, I don't feel that way.

To enlarge on my viewpoint, I don't feel that the only acceptable story path for a hero is to fail at a series of physical challenges, be helped by someone else, and eventually succeed.

I understand your point now.

However, I don't feel that way.

EDIT:
Or, more precisely, I don't feel you're being genuine. There are, indeed, more acceptable story paths for heroes than the one you propose. That doesn't automatically mean that Rey is a good hero. No one ever claimed that Luke's journey is the only journey. They were merely claiming that it was better than Rey's, and they're not wrong. The fact that there are dozens of ways one could write Rey (or Luke, for that matter) that are all quite interesting does not obviate the fact that she is, in fact, not interesting in her current iteration.

Luke's journey isn't better than Rey's, it's different.

It's the difference that apparently a lot of people dislike, but that doesn't make it bad. A lot of people like it.

Do they "like" it? Or are merely "okay" with it?

Luke Skywalker's saga inspired and inflamed a generation. Rey's hero-saga is just... causing shitstorms.

Amongst people old enough to not get their knickers in a twist.

Why not ask kids. If she means to them what Luke meant to us, job’s a good’un.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Amongst people old enough to not get their knickers in a twist.

Why not ask kids. If she means to them what Luke meant to us, job’s a good’un.

I have asked kids.

I saw the movie as a chaperone with a birthday party held for a friend's daughter. The kids saw the movie, then moved swiftly along to being children and not really giving a gak. It had the same effect on them that a normal kid's movie would have, which is pretty fine, except when compared to what the original saga did.

EDIT:
They were "just okay" with it, same as I mentioned in my post.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I understand your point now.

However, I don't feel that way.

To enlarge on my viewpoint, I don't feel that the only acceptable story path for a hero is to fail at a series of physical challenges, be helped by someone else, and eventually succeed.

I understand your point now.

However, I don't feel that way.

EDIT:
Or, more precisely, I don't feel you're being genuine. There are, indeed, more acceptable story paths for heroes than the one you propose. That doesn't automatically mean that Rey is a good hero. No one ever claimed that Luke's journey is the only journey. They were merely claiming that it was better than Rey's, and they're not wrong. The fact that there are dozens of ways one could write Rey (or Luke, for that matter) that are all quite interesting does not obviate the fact that she is, in fact, not interesting in her current iteration.

Luke's journey isn't better than Rey's, it's different.

It's the difference that apparently a lot of people dislike, but that doesn't make it bad. A lot of people like it.

Lot of people like Kirito as well.

I can't wait for Solo to come out and all this debate to start all over again.

Honestly, Alec Guinness himself predicted we would read way way too much into these movies and the old chap was right.

Just take what you like and move on. I highly doubt that even the most hardcore fan of Episodes 1-3 doesn't think to himself when he is all alone: "yeah, I would have some a couple of things differently. . ."

Star Wars is what it is. At the end of the day, these are just movies that affect everyone in different ways. Focus on the positive things in life, not the negative.

Not much to discuss about it on a discussion forum then, is there?

While it *may* have gone on a little long now, and while all camps are a little dug in and repeating stuff a bit now, it was certainly a pretty good discussion to have here.