Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Especially for a movie wich the creator , George Lucas, didn't want to be to complicated or realistic. Leading to the statement "Star wars isn't science fiction". Specifically in the sense of 2001 a space odyssey.

ANH is the story of a chosen peasant boy going on a quest with an old wizard, aided by a smuggler, to go help the princess opposing the dark lord.

I sorta said my piece and left but i'd like to dig up another scene in TLJ i didn't like. The fact if you looked they seemed to be hinting at a leia/han solo romance with holdo and poe but she dies before anything happens. They also don't give enough background on her for us to really care about her or any attachment between the two to care about a relationship. I mean i don't even think a good portion of people noticed there was something starting to go on between the two.

My main issue with the movie is it seems confused like it doesn't know what it wants to do anything so either does nothing or goes about it half-heartedly making it have less of an impact or just feel out of place. Another example is luke's death scene.

 Earth127 wrote:
Especially for a movie wich the creator , George Lucas, didn't want to be to complicated or realistic. Leading to the statement "Star wars isn't science fiction". Specifically in the sense of 2001 a space odyssey.

ANH is the story of a chosen peasant boy going on a quest with an old wizard, aided by a smuggler, to go help the princess opposing the dark lord.

Being forced to repeat it every time starts to be exhausting but since you completely reject the notion of posting after reading the thread (justified in this case I guess, because of the sheer size of the discussion):
The fact that a movie is not set in a realistic setting does not justify any lack of consistency. Even fictional universes have their rules.
If you read/watch Lord of The Rings and see the Dwarves suddenly fly and fire lightnighs from their beard, you don't just suddenly accept it because is an imaginary world and these are imaginary creatures. In that universes Dwarves don't do that, and magic is subtle and very rarely this flashy. You would be confused by the lack of setup and consistency.
A lot of people found TLJ to be the same thing.
And please, I think is a really bad thing to say that since a movie is for kids, is not the case for it being well written. You can write a simple story that kids can appreciate that has solid characters/story, and solid values.
TLJ has nothing of this.
Unless your aim is to accustom the kid to eat pig slop since very young age, in this way they will be the perfect, unquestioning customers later on.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

Rey fails to convince Luke to rejoin the Resistance, and fails to persuade Ren not to go to the Dark Side. Fine.
What can we know about her from these events?
And how well inserted is this in the framework of the story, and how well written is the care Rey has for the politics, resistance, etc?

Well, we know his robot got a bigger emotional investment out of Luke with an old holo-recording than Rey did with... anything.
From failing to persuade Ren, we learned that... she's apparently capable of ship-to-ship teleports and doesn't really care about the tense situation she was just in. Or maybe that's just a problem with the story framework.

As for politics and the Resisty? She probably doesn't care much. When she arrived on Island Planet, she mostly wanted Luke to take some responsibility for the people he abandoned. But prior to that (ie, TFA) she didn't want in at all, and for most of this movie she wanted to make Ren nice, and after that... I guess she accepted the hero-protagonist slot in the story, because... it was empty now? I guess? Her quips and lines when she wanders lackadaisically back into the film on the Falcon seem to indicate a general interest in a Professional Hero position, but her general attitudes and actions suggest this may just be another passing fancy (or empty box) like training or redemptor-for-hire.

I mean sure, Finn can't do it because he was dragooned into the role of Leaky Comic Sidekick and the Official Sidequest, but theoretically Poe could still be it, except Johnson seems to feel that as the Inexplicably Designated Heir Apparent to the leadership of 10 or so people, he's disqualified.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I had forgotten both those things. Are you doing this to me to lure Skywalker into a trap?

Nah, just delaying Qui-Gon and Qbi-Wan until the Droidekas come...maybe some buzz droids too.

Voss wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

Rey fails to convince Luke to rejoin the Resistance, and fails to persuade Ren not to go to the Dark Side. Fine.
What can we know about her from these events?
And how well inserted is this in the framework of the story, and how well written is the care Rey has for the politics, resistance, etc?

Well, we know his robot got a bigger emotional investment out of Luke with an old holo-recording than Rey did with... anything.
From failing to persuade Ren, we learned that... she's apparently capable of ship-to-ship teleports and doesn't really care about the tense situation she was just in. Or maybe that's just a problem with the story framework.

As for politics and the Resisty? She probably doesn't care much. When she arrived on Island Planet, she mostly wanted Luke to take some responsibility for the people he abandoned. But prior to that (ie, TFA) she didn't want in at all, and for most of this movie she wanted to make Ren nice, and after that... I guess she accepted the hero-protagonist slot in the story, because... it was empty now? I guess? Her quips and lines when she wanders lackadaisically back into the film on the Falcon seem to indicate a general interest in a Professional Hero position, but her general attitudes and actions suggest this may just be another passing fancy (or empty box) like training or redemptor-for-hire.

...

Yet at the end of the film, Rey pilots the Falcon through the Imperial blockade and personally rescues the entire surviving Resistance and gets them to safety.

I don't really know why you would interpret that as a kind of cynical joke.

Well a significant portion of the film was designed to be a cynical joke...

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I understand your point now.

However, I don't feel that way.

To enlarge on my viewpoint, I don't feel that the only acceptable story path for a hero is to fail at a series of physical challenges, be helped by someone else, and eventually succeed.

And the fact you view Luke's journey as "a series of physical challenges" while listing off Rey's achievements as "beat up a dude, beat up multiple dudes, flew a ship, beat up another dude" etc is where the disconnect with everyone else is.

Luke's journey is emotional and spiritual, it's the result of that journey that allows him to perform outlandish physical feats and have the audience feel like he's earned the right. Luke at the beginning of the OT is not the Luke in ESB, and he is different and more mature again in RotJ. Each film puts him through challenges that force him to recognise things about himself and address those things in order to move forward - crikey man, almost his entire sub-plot in ESB is about his emotional and spiritual growth as a character, the zen shtick is layed on with a trowel, how can you miss and/or willfully ignore that?

Rey begins TFA as a physically capable badass, bumbles around doing AWESUM *guitar solo* stuff, using the force at a level they used in the OT to establish Obi Wan as a mystical old master-wizard dude, and shouting at people to do what she wants for two movies; has one single moment where she might potentially just about learn something about herself, which is then promptly undercut by bad editing since apparently one moment of possible emotional resonance and character growth was so terrifying for the writers they had to immediately teleport her into the Falcon so she could blow some stuff up in an appropriately awesome way, and ends the second movie as almost exactly the same person she was at the start of the first.

She doesn't even have a "path", she's a hero by writer fiat from the moment we meet her.

Watching some Mark Hamill interviews, he gets really excited about how Luke was an inspiring character for people and is touched how he could be a part of that. He says in an interview alongside Simon Pegg, talking about Luke "I'm so moved by stories of people that were inspired, people that really are facing like health issues and adversities that find determination and spiritual redemption"

I just don't see Rey the same way. Real people fail and struggle and suffer proper emotional trials, a character that kicks arse might be cool to some but just doesn't resonate with me. Luke failing to pull the X-Wing and needing Yoda to show him what can be done is better character building than Rey lifting the rocks just because the story demands it so therefore she can.

Having recently watched the OT trilogy again (first saw it in mid to late teens and haven't sat down to actually watch it properly since) I appreciate Luke more as an adult than I did as a kid because of his struggles, not just physical challenges but genuine emotional ones as well.

But in the end I think in some ways we get hung up comparing Luke to Rey simply because they're both Star Wars heroes. I don't think Luke was an exceptionally well written hero to be honest, he's just the one who happens to be the precursor of Rey.

But you can pull the heroes from almost any good movie that has a hero and see that it's their struggles and failures that make them good heroes even more than their successes, because it's their struggles that frame the significance of their achievements.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

Voss wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

Rey fails to convince Luke to rejoin the Resistance, and fails to persuade Ren not to go to the Dark Side. Fine.
What can we know about her from these events?
And how well inserted is this in the framework of the story, and how well written is the care Rey has for the politics, resistance, etc?

Well, we know his robot got a bigger emotional investment out of Luke with an old holo-recording than Rey did with... anything.
From failing to persuade Ren, we learned that... she's apparently capable of ship-to-ship teleports and doesn't really care about the tense situation she was just in. Or maybe that's just a problem with the story framework.

As for politics and the Resisty? She probably doesn't care much. When she arrived on Island Planet, she mostly wanted Luke to take some responsibility for the people he abandoned. But prior to that (ie, TFA) she didn't want in at all, and for most of this movie she wanted to make Ren nice, and after that... I guess she accepted the hero-protagonist slot in the story, because... it was empty now? I guess? Her quips and lines when she wanders lackadaisically back into the film on the Falcon seem to indicate a general interest in a Professional Hero position, but her general attitudes and actions suggest this may just be another passing fancy (or empty box) like training or redemptor-for-hire.

...

Yet at the end of the film, Rey pilots the Falcon through the Imperial blockade and personally rescues the entire surviving Resistance and gets them to safety.

I don't really know why you would interpret that as a kind of cynical joke.

You don't? The movie doesn't even bother dealing with her at all post Snoke. She goes into the ship seeking redemption for her kidnapper. She fails. We don't see her reaction to that. We don't see her leave. We don't see her gain any knowledge at all about the current state of the Resisty. She just turns up later, guns a-blazing with a Yeehah! Quips on her lips about rocks, and a sudden complete tone shift as she dons the Annointed Hero role because the last five minutes of the movie demands it for movie purposes, not because it has anything to do with her character arc, not even a simplistic 'what have we learned today?' There is almost a reaction shot when she learns the one person she interacted with in the last movie has a new love interest, but it's left lying on the ground.

If you can't understand why post confrontation Rey is a joke, I suspect you just aren't willing to. Rey the character doesn't move in the second half the film. She's still paralyzed by Snoke. The Annointed Hero is removed from the big ship to the falcon, then the Annointed Hero moves some rocks to set the pieces up for the next film. The craft of film-making is entirely abandoned, and Johnson just shuffles tropes and roles around to provide Abrams the exact same starting point as the this film: The Resity flees a planet to escape the first order. In doing so, he stops treating them as characters, and just shoots some uninspired set pieces with tropey roles going through the motions- the villain does the stupid villain rant, the sacrifice does his thing, the sidekick learns about love, and the hero saves people just by wandering back into shot.

I agree on the struggles not the failures. Tough Rey isn't the most complex or well written character. Some aspects should have been downplayed. She isn't better at flying the falcon than han in TFA, she just knew it had been messed with. If it's a failing hero rising and learning from it, why do so many people hate Poe's arc in TLJ. He's textbook hero learing from failure but no he's just dudebro subversion. Tough the theme of his story is much better done in BSG, A show I very much believe Rian Johnson was inspired by.

There is no mathematically perfect way to write a good character, no beats you have to hit. Each is a challenge in its own right and depending on genre and type of story they vary wildly.

I watched a video by Matt Collvile critiquing the new star wars movies. Where he critizes the criticism of the characters don't grow in rogue one as "Sounding like people having a narrative hammer now approaching every problem like a nail".

So far in no star wars movie have I seen any evidence that training genuinely increases force ability. Yoda even says forget everything you have learned just feel when he asks luke to lift the X-wing. Trust in the force to blow up the death star. I don't know what luke was doing between episodes V and VI but it wasn't training with yoda. The crucial difference: he has faith in himself and his abilities unlike Dagobah (That is why you fail) . It's time to complete Kylo Ren's training. How we don't see you actually train him except linking him to Rey? Your epic last monologue leads me to believe the test was thjej training. Just hear him monolguing Kylo's thoughts. It's all about faith and certainty.

Voss wrote:
You don't? The movie doesn't even bother dealing with her at all post Snoke. She goes into the ship seeking redemption for her kidnapper. She fails. We don't see her reaction to that. We don't see her leave. We don't see her gain any knowledge at all about the current state of the Resisty. She just turns up later, guns a-blazing with a Yeehah! Quips on her lips about rocks, and a sudden complete tone shift as she dons the Annointed Hero role because the last five minutes of the movie demands it for movie purposes, not because it has anything to do with her character arc, not even a simplistic 'what have we learned today?' There is almost a reaction shot when she learns the one person she interacted with in the last movie has a new love interest, but it's left lying on the ground.

If you can't understand why post confrontation Rey is a joke, I suspect you just aren't willing to. Rey the character doesn't move in the second half the film. She's still paralyzed by Snoke. The Annointed Hero is removed from the big ship to the falcon, then the Annointed Hero moves some rocks to set the pieces up for the next film. The craft of film-making is entirely abandoned, and Johnson just shuffles tropes and roles around to provide Abrams the exact same starting point as the this film: The Resity flees a planet to escape the first order. In doing so, he stops treating them as characters, and just shoots some uninspired set pieces with tropey roles going through the motions- the villain does the stupid villain rant, the sacrifice does his thing, the sidekick learns about love, and the hero saves people just by wandering back into shot.

Yeah but weren't your expectations subverted?

I mean you expected a well-crafted movie with a moving storyline that really tugged your heartstrings and made you invested in the heroes, didn't you? It's a Star Wars film after all.

But your expectations were subverted weren't they? Rian Johnson really got us there, hoo boy! I definitely feel much better knowing that he threw the franchise under the bus simply to subvert expectations.

 Earth127 wrote:
. If it's a failing hero rising and learning from it, why do so many people hate Poe's arc in TLJ. He's textbook hero learing from failure but no he's just dudebro subversion. Tough the theme of his story is much better done in BSG, A show I very much believe Rian Johnson was inspired by.

Previously posted. Prestor Jon nailed it perfectly.

What he wrote is valid of Kylo too. They have no idea of where the story is going, so they don't want to show him too remorseful for Han.
(albeit they did show something about his mother).
So we have Ben now in a strange position: he is the Villain but Rey wants to save him, but all falls flat because we don't feel his struggle in a significant way.

I wonder if all this debate is along generational lines. Since we can't see our faces its hard to determine when you started becoming a fan. I think those that grew up with Episodes 4,5,6 when they first came out, have a much much greater attachment to Luke, Han, and so on. And I think some of this also comes from the fact that back then, many of us had toys instead of gaming consoles. We didn't read too much into the characters back then (that is something we did later), but if you were anything like me, you brought a Star Wars figure everywhere you went, and the Rebellion was fought over a hundred times in my backyard, living room, bedroom, bunk bed, in a hotel room on vacation, and so on. These characters were my friends, and still are. I think the vast majority of us older fans wanted to see Han, Luke, and Leia treated with respect in that regard, rather than props as they have been.

I think Episodes 1,2,3 had some toy effect, but no where near as much as Gen 1 did. By this time, gaming consoles were out and kids would usually rather play a game on an playstation rather than with figures. I saw this first hand with my younger brother. He had some toys, but never would play like I did as a kid. Liked Star Wars, lightsabers, and so on, but not in the same way that I did.

Well, Gen 3 is having their time with 7,8,9 and I wonder if the lines are being drawn here between older Gen 2s and Gen 1s. And consider how different the times are today versus the 80s. Back then, action movies typically focused on the action, and the hero essentially fighting against a villain who has wronged them and makes things right by blowing a bunch of stuff up (Stallone, Schwarzenegger, etc). These heroes are all larger than life and bad ass. But Luke was different. Luke was everyone of us who was just a normal kid who gets swept up in something a lot bigger than he is. Yes, he's got some family history and the ability to use a great power, but he goes through it with this charming naivety that everyone appreciates. He journey doesn't just involve physically beating his enemies, but overcoming his own struggles and place in the universe. Much like us when we were young and growing up and learning about the world.

It might be different being younger and growing up with these elements now, as the concepts aren't really new. There is a formula now and a lot of shows/movies/characters are using it. We also see a lot of female characters being the lead, and they also bring along their own struggles (Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus - despite how hard everyone wants to be PC and think they are the same). But then we have women being more physical and men being more emotional. Considering the pretty crap state families are in in the US with high divorce rates, drug abuse, and so on, Rey's abandonment issues are probably pretty valid and many can probably relate, but the 'old' me wouldn't have carried much of that into my backyard. I didn't care that Luke didn't have his Mom and Dad around when I was younger (I don't think I ever wondered about his mom, and didn't think of his Dad until Vader told him). To me, it was more about the physical part of the story first, then appreciating his spiritual elevation as I got older.

Younger fans could be a lot smarter than I was when I was younger, but it doesn't change what I like. I am a product of a time that produced Luke, Han, and Leia, not of a time that produced Rey, Finn, and Poe. Star Wars is first and foremost about the characters. Its what we love about the films. And I just find the older characters more interesting and relatable than the new ones. I understand the new ones, just don't have any attachment to them. And I doubt the younger fans will attach themselves to the newer ones as I did with the older ones, simply because I don't see them playing with toys like I used to (Toys R Us is going backrupt because kids don't play with toys like they used to - while collector toys are booming). I don't see them bonding with them so to speak.

So I am not sure what the future of Star Wars will be. I don't think they have a plan like Marvel does, where they (Marvel) have done an amazing job bringing characters that have been around for DECADES to film, and still have 1000s of characters to go through. Even lesser known characters like Guardians of the Galaxy, Doctor Strange, and soon to be Black Panther are absolute home runs. Star Wars on the other hand, despite having a giant universe, has focused on so few characters and now that a good chunk of them are gone, or at least from the main timeline moving forward, may have a tough time getting fans to embrace the new ones. I am blown away with what Marvel has done. If there was no Episodes 1-6 and we were starting fresh with TFA, I am not sure Star Wars would move beyond Episode 9. Yet Marvel, in about a decade or so, with have a storyline that involves some 30 movies. Yes, Star Wars does have some power, but I think its in its legacy. I am not quite sure the newer films are going to be remembered as fondly a couple of decades from now as 4,5,6 have been in the same amount of time.

I went with a 40+ male and a 30+ female - we all thought that the film was just crap.

I spoke to another 40+ male and both he and his teenage children thought it was crap.

Several other women I know thought it was crap.

One 40+ male I know thought it was good.

People like different stuff but sometimes a crap film is a crap film - not matter what "Critics" say.

It's not about generations at all really. I know older people that like or dislike and younger peole that like or dislike.

Prestor john did not nail it at all. He gets some basic facts wrong:
Poe starts his mutiny when he finds out Holdo ios fuelling up the transports and refuses to believe in his plan to succeed. Poe doesn't get the sole credit for the biggest backstab of the movie, DJ (or whatever the feth his actual name is) gets the lion share of the blame.

More compicated and debatable since it uses real life military logic and that is obviously not something Star wars uses (Seriously it doesn't make sense)
Digging in against a foe bringing big weapons to bear does not work. In fact digging in barely works and would have bought them minutes probably with the gear they had. Also he doesn't at that point defy orders. Leia does give him permission. And he pulls back when it goes from being the odds are against us to pure suicide.

I'm still a bit triggered that they were closer to Crait than Earth is to its Moon during the entire chase sequence, and not one person, either in the First Order or in Poe's merry band of mutineers, ever thought that the planet they can see out the window that the Resistance is heading for might be the thing that the resistance is heading for.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I'm still a bit triggered that they were closer to Crait than Earth is to its Moon during the entire chase sequence, and not one person, either in the First Order or in Poe's merry band of mutineers, ever thought that the planet they can see out the window that the Resistance is heading for might be the thing that the resistance is heading for.

Weak lazy writing - the film is chocked full of it.

Back then, action movies typically focused on the action, and the hero essentially fighting against a villain who has wronged them and makes things right by blowing a bunch of stuff up (Stallone, Schwarzenegger, etc).

Have you watched the immensely popular Jon Wick films? That's exactly what they are - the Second one is almost exactly like a FPS where you kill hundreds of mooks, it even has end of level bad guys. Plenty of other action films are the same.

Yeah that planet bit is well bad.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I'm still a bit triggered that they were closer to Crait than Earth is to its Moon during the entire chase sequence, and not one person, either in the First Order or in Poe's merry band of mutineers, ever thought that the planet they can see out the window that the Resistance is heading for might be the thing that the resistance is heading for.

Weak lazy writing - the film is chocked full of it.

We they really that close to Crait? Or was it just shown for the audience's convenience?
I got the impression that no one knew Crait really existed until the last moment.
Space is big and no one really looks out the window to search for stuff, that's what computers are for.

We (the audience) are only shown Crait when it "needed" to be revealed to us. That doesn't mean it was that close and that both the Resistance and First Order would have seen it for that entire last part of the chase.

-

 Galef wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I'm still a bit triggered that they were closer to Crait than Earth is to its Moon during the entire chase sequence, and not one person, either in the First Order or in Poe's merry band of mutineers, ever thought that the planet they can see out the window that the Resistance is heading for might be the thing that the resistance is heading for.

Weak lazy writing - the film is chocked full of it.

We they really that close to Crait? Or was it just shown for the audience's convenience?
I got the impression that no one knew Crait really existed until the last moment.
Space is big and no one really lloks out the window to search for stuff.

We (the audience) only show Crait when it "needed" to be revealed to us. That doesn't mean it was that close and that both the Resistance and First Order would have seen it for that entire last part of the chase.

-

Wait - really? No one on the First Order fleet or the Ship of Fools noticed a entire planetary system - cos its not just a planet its got a sun - or no light etc (*) - But given the writing team thought that

We the audience were fed crap and told it was gold - in fact are still being told it was gold. Yet some of us can smell it.


(*) (unless you are making a "realistic" movie about black holes in which case planets just illuminate themselves)

 Galef wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I'm still a bit triggered that they were closer to Crait than Earth is to its Moon during the entire chase sequence, and not one person, either in the First Order or in Poe's merry band of mutineers, ever thought that the planet they can see out the window that the Resistance is heading for might be the thing that the resistance is heading for.

Weak lazy writing - the film is chocked full of it.

We they really that close to Crait? Or was it just shown for the audience's convenience?
I got the impression that no one knew Crait really existed until the last moment.
Space is big and no one really looks out the window to search for stuff, that's what computers are for.

We (the audience) are only shown Crait when it "needed" to be revealed to us. That doesn't mean it was that close and that both the Resistance and First Order would have seen it for that entire last part of the chase.

-

Except that it does.

Because the chase is 18 hours long at sublight speeds. Conversely, our spacecraft takes 3 days to got to the moon from the earth. So that means that even if their sublight is four times faster than ours, they were closer to Crait than the moon is to Earth when they started the chase. And if you're curious about whether or not Earth can be seen from the distance of the Moon, well, just google it.

Also, Crait orbits a star (we know this because the day is sunny when the First Order attack on Crait happens). So they're literally inside a solar system and flying towards a planet for an entire 18 hour chase and neither Poe Dameron nor the First Order could fathom what their plan could possibly be.

This is a setting with star maps.
Removing parts of the map to hide stuff has been the (contrived) plot point of at least 2 movies.
Come on now.

It's about how much of a hard core fan you are. It's the hard core fans who hate the film. Everyone else is fine with it.

I'mm 55, my wife is 51, my daughter is 18. We all liked the film. I probably liked it most.

Having previously watched all the first three films and TFA in the cinema on first release, Ive got more nostalgia built up in them.

I've never been a super fan, though, and I didn't come into the new films with any strong preconceptions about them. I had an image of what Star Wars looks like, and the Force, and quips in the dialogue, general stuff like that. These were fulfilled from my viewpoint.

The super fans expected something different. I think that is the key point.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:
This is a setting with star maps.
Removing parts of the map to hide stuff has been the (contrived) plot point of at least 2 movies.
Come on now.

If I can see a landmark out my window, I don't need a map to tell me I've arrived.

You can literally see Crait out the window as the viewer, so it's explicitly visible out the window, and it's been out the window for eighteen hours. As has, presumably, its sun, since that's how solar systems work.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
It's about how much of a hard core fan you are. It's the hard core fans who hate the film. Everyone else is fine with it.

I'mm 55, my wife is 51, my daughter is 18. We all liked the film. I probably liked it most.

Having previously watched all the first three films and TFA in the cinema on first release, Ive got more nostalgia built up in them.

I've never been a super fan, though, and I didn't come into the new films with any strong preconceptions about them. I had an image of what Star Wars looks like, and the Force, and quips in the dialogue, general stuff like that. These were fulfilled from my viewpoint.

The super fans expected something different. I think that is the key point.

Rubbish - complete and total.

Of more than 10 people I know that saw it and said how crap it was - several of them had only ever seen TFA. I liked TFA and hoped for nothing more than a fun film - instead I got occasional bits that were ok and mostly boredom.

The problem for many of us is not that its not Star Wars - its that we find almost every element is bad - writing, pacing, direction, characters

and then to top it off - we are told by the high and might critics that - no it s a cinematic gem and we should be privileged to even be allowed to watch it.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:
This is a setting with star maps.
Removing parts of the map to hide stuff has been the (contrived) plot point of at least 2 movies.
Come on now.

If I can see a landmark out my window, I don't need a map to tell me I've arrived.

You can literally see Crait out the window as the viewer, so it's explicitly visible out the window, and it's been out the window for eighteen hours. As has, presumably, its sun, since that's how solar systems work.

My original point is that it is "on the viewer" so the audience knows it's there. This does not mean it was there for any meaningful amount of time prior to being revealed.
Top sublight speeds in the SW galaxy could still be really, really fast compared to our current snail-paced "3 days to get to the moon".
I mean even the small transports at the beginning of the movie are able to get into orbit within SECONDS of take-off.

It is entirely possible (and indeed what I choose to believe) that for the first 17 hours of the chase, Crait wasn't a blip on anyone's radar (save Holdo cuz she knew it was there). It wasn't until the last stretch that the small planet came into view and by then the transports were on their way

Quick question what would you say is a wel written movie Mr. Morden?

Because while I don't think TLJ's writing should win any awards I don't think it's bad either.

 Galef wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:
This is a setting with star maps.
Removing parts of the map to hide stuff has been the (contrived) plot point of at least 2 movies.
Come on now.

If I can see a landmark out my window, I don't need a map to tell me I've arrived.

You can literally see Crait out the window as the viewer, so it's explicitly visible out the window, and it's been out the window for eighteen hours. As has, presumably, its sun, since that's how solar systems work.

My original point is that it is "on the viewer" so the audience knows it's there. This does not mean it was there for any meaningful amount of time prior to being revealed.
Top sublight speeds in the SW galaxy could still be really, really fast compared to our current snail-paced "3 days to get to the moon".
I mean even the small transports at the beginning of the movie are able to get into orbit within SECONDS of take-off.

It is entirely possible (and indeed what I choose to believe) that for the first 17 hours of the chase, Crait wasn't a blip on anyone's radar (save Holdo cuz she knew it was there). It wasn't until the last stretch that the small planet came into view and by then the transports were on their way

Except Crait has a star. A sun, you know. The thing you can see from like 96 AUs out.

"HOLDO WE HAVE NO PLAN WHERE ARE WE GOING?" *poe looks up and sees star with presumably orbiting planets* "Oh. Alrighty then." *roll credits*

Conversely

"Hah! We have the resistance now, there's no where to run!" "Uh, Hux, sir, my eyeball sensors are telling me there's a solar system up ahead." "Eyeball sensors? What you mean look out the window? How mundan- oh, oh you're right. Better hyperspace in front of them then. Send four cruisers, or something. I dunno. Fuckin' ... just fly forwards faster than they can. You have hyperdrives." *pinches nose*

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
It's about how much of a hard core fan you are. It's the hard core fans who hate the film. Everyone else is fine with it.

I'mm 55, my wife is 51, my daughter is 18. We all liked the film. I probably liked it most.

Having previously watched all the first three films and TFA in the cinema on first release, Ive got more nostalgia built up in them.

I've never been a super fan, though, and I didn't come into the new films with any strong preconceptions about them. I had an image of what Star Wars looks like, and the Force, and quips in the dialogue, general stuff like that. These were fulfilled from my viewpoint.

The super fans expected something different. I think that is the key point.

Rubbish - complete and total.

Of more than 10 people I know that saw it and said how crap it was - several of them had only ever seen TFA. I liked TFA and hoped for nothing more than a fun film - instead I got occasional bits that were ok and mostly boredom.

The problem for many of us is not that its not Star Wars - its that we find almost every element is bad - writing, pacing, direction, characters

and then to top it off - we are told by the high and might critics that - no it s a cinematic gem and we should be privileged to even be allowed to watch it.

The film has sold 1.3 billion dollars of tickets in 6 weeks.

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=starwars8.htm

It simply is not a piece of crap that everyone hates except a tiny proportion of weirdos like me.