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In prep for the the UKGT heat last weekend a friend asked if he could still use his GK dreadnoughts with quad autocannons, using the options and points from the index (as twin autocannons don't have points in the codex).

He was told yes. That's about as "tournament official" as it gets.

That said, it does clearly need an FAQ. And actually I think it would be problematic to allow Autarchs to have reaper launchers under the current codex rules. The warlord trait that lets you pick out characters is not really ok if you then nuke them off the board with a heavy weapon, and the codex clearly isn't written with that understanding.

So I think there needs to be an FAQ to clarify the rule, but then they'll need to look for where that might cause problems. For instance they might change that warlord trait to say that it doesn't work with heavy weapons.

So my understanding is that the base Autarch got a 5 point price increase. So now I want to use my Warp Jump Autarch with reaper launcher.

The weapon is fine...they say to use the new points which dropped from 31 to 25 I believe. Easy enough.

But the old Warp Jump Autarch was only 7 points more than the base Autarch. So with no point pricing for the Warp Jump we are getting the old index points essentially for 2 points more than the new higher priced Codex Autarch.

Or how would you go about pricing the index version with the current Codex?

AND it did say they can use Chapter Tactics as an example. Does this mean the warp jump generator Autarch has access to Warlord traits, relics, and other CWE strategems/etc????

Yeah exactly. Neither option currently works. Or at least it works but doesn't make sense to get a jump generator for 2 points.

This is why I'm saying there need to be two parts to the FAQ. Part one needs to explain what the rules actually are, and part two needs to errata the index and codex in the light of that.

So for instance in part two you'd probably add 5 or more points to the cost of an autarch with jump generator, and you'd add a sentence to the codex warlord trait saying that you couldn't snipe characters with heavy weapons... with the possible exception of sniper rifles I guess.

 admironheart wrote:
So my understanding is that the base Autarch got a 5 point price increase. So now I want to use my Warp Jump Autarch with reaper launcher.

The weapon is fine...they say to use the new points which dropped from 31 to 25 I believe. Easy enough.

But the old Warp Jump Autarch was only 7 points more than the base Autarch. So with no point pricing for the Warp Jump we are getting the old index points essentially for 2 points more than the new higher priced Codex Autarch.

Or how would you go about pricing the index version with the current Codex?

AND it did say they can use Chapter Tactics as an example. Does this mean the warp jump generator Autarch has access to Warlord traits, relics, and other CWE strategems/etc????

This all seems unquestionably legal. This is like using Rough Riders with the IG codex. It's a datasheet that no longer appears in the codex, so the one in the index is the most current. All of the detachment-level rules still apply too -- he gets an Attribute by virtue of being a <Craftworld> unit, and he's an Asuryani unit so can get a warlord trait and relic and so on.

Funny. Seems like a Warp Spider Autarch is poised to become more popular without a Codex entry than he ever could've been with an entry (properly point adjusted and rules-hedged against heavy weapon character sniping at 1/3 of the cost of a FW Wraithseer).

Wonderwolf wrote:
Funny. Seems like a Warp Spider Autarch is poised to become more popular without a Codex entry than he ever could've been with an entry (properly point adjusted and rules-hedged against heavy weapon character sniping at 1/3 of the cost of a FW Wraithseer).

Because it's one of the best Autarch models

Mandragola wrote:
In prep for the the UKGT heat last weekend a friend asked if he could still use his GK dreadnoughts with quad autocannons, using the options and points from the index (as twin autocannons don't have points in the codex).

He was told yes. That's about as "tournament official" as it gets.

That said, it does clearly need an FAQ. And actually I think it would be problematic to allow Autarchs to have reaper launchers under the current codex rules. The warlord trait that lets you pick out characters is not really ok if you then nuke them off the board with a heavy weapon, and the codex clearly isn't written with that understanding.

So I think there needs to be an FAQ to clarify the rule, but then they'll need to look for where that might cause problems. For instance they might change that warlord trait to say that it doesn't work with heavy weapons.

I don't think there's an issue with him sniping characters with the Reaper Launcher to be honest. Illic's sniper rifle now does 3 damage, hits on 2+, wounds on 2+ and save is at -3 (as opposed to -2 for the Reaper Launcher) and wounds of 6+ also inflict a Mortal Wound. They do practically the same thing only Illic is 80 points.

 DivineVisitor wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
In prep for the the UKGT heat last weekend a friend asked if he could still use his GK dreadnoughts with quad autocannons, using the options and points from the index (as twin autocannons don't have points in the codex).

He was told yes. That's about as "tournament official" as it gets.

That said, it does clearly need an FAQ. And actually I think it would be problematic to allow Autarchs to have reaper launchers under the current codex rules. The warlord trait that lets you pick out characters is not really ok if you then nuke them off the board with a heavy weapon, and the codex clearly isn't written with that understanding.

So I think there needs to be an FAQ to clarify the rule, but then they'll need to look for where that might cause problems. For instance they might change that warlord trait to say that it doesn't work with heavy weapons.

I don't think there's an issue with him sniping characters with the Reaper Launcher to be honest. Illic's sniper rifle now does 3 damage, hits on 2+, wounds on 2+ and save is at -3 (as opposed to -2 for the Reaper Launcher) and wounds of 6+ also inflict a Mortal Wound. They do practically the same thing only Illic is 80 points.

Yeah Illic is nasty. Two of him would be nastier.

Then there's the Shadow Spectres Phoenix Lord with 4x S6, -3 save, 2 damage prism rifle.

Or

Maugan Ra with 8x S6, - 1 save shots (-3 on wounds of 6+).

Both could also make deadly use of the sniper Warlord Trait.

 DivineVisitor wrote:
Then there's the Shadow Spectres Phoenix Lord with 4x S6, -3 save, 2 damage prism rifle.

Or

Maugan Ra with 8x S6, - 1 save shots (-3 on wounds of 6+).

Both could also make deadly use of the sniper Warlord Trait.

Special characters tend to come with a fixed trait but it would make sense for Morgan ra I suppose.

Fair enough. Sounds like characters are pretty much screwed against Eldar regardless. One more reaper launcher to the face won't make much difference.

Despite not getting the T8 (yet) that was given to wraithlord, I’m thinking the sniper trait would go good on an Altioc wraithseer with a D-cannon.

Overall happy for Eldar players. I'm not happy about their Chapter Tactics affecting their vehicles unlike Marines (which is almost completely unfair) nor am I happy that Prisms get Grinding Advance yet my Dune Crawlers get nothing of the sort, but the point changes as a whole are pretty darn good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:

Bobug wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Garion wrote:


They already gave us a way out:


https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/05/codexes-your-questions-answered-july-5gw-homepage-post-2/

Of course that works only when datasheet has vanished from codex. If datasheet exists in codex but say misses options then that's the new up to date datasheet you are supposed to use. No option in datasheet=tough luck. Datasheet in older publication has been replaced by new one.

The datasheets in the new codexes overwrite the same datasheets in the index books. You can certainly use units with updated datasheets alongside units from the index that have yet to be updated. Once a unit has been covered in the codex though, we assume you’re using the latest version.

Not true. Dreadnought weapons are the prime example of how this works.

I'm quoting GW. That's quote from page linked above.

You have datasheet A. Datasheet gets replaced by newer version. The older version no longer exists.

If you have datasheet B meanwhile that got removed from codex(say autatch with warp jump generator or rough rider) THAT is usable.

This is what GW said. You arquing with GW?

Are you purposely being obtuse? It's pretty easy how it works.
1. Model doesn't have the same options? Use the index.
2. Are points updated? Use those points.
3. Are rules updated? Use those rules.
Basically an Index is kinda "pay to play" for the older folks.

Also I don't think your Commisar example works at all because the Commisar fix came from an FAQ/Errata not a codex.

Magnus got Bamboozled

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Redemption wrote:

tneva82 wrote:Yes yes good selective quote. Said page also says newer datasheet overwrites old one. Old one no longer exists. Your quote matters only when datasheet DISAPEARS like it did with warp spider jump generator autarch and rough riders.

Old datasheet does not exists once new comes. Otherwise you could nitpick datasheet you want. Old commisar? Sure go ahead. FAQ only deals with the codex entry so if you can use datasheet that's been updated legal play to take old style commisar from index.

This:

Matt.Kingsley wrote:If you think otherwise, why would they reference dreadnought weapons?

Dreadnoughts exist in both the index and the codex, but options like the twin autocannon have been removed.

Of course in case of the Autarch, you'd also have to use the old Path of Command and Banshee Mask rules from the index.

Did they quarantee you can use them on matched play?

GW has been clear on new datasheet replacing old one. If you can use old and new datasheets along then I'll take index commisars with 1 guy autopassing morale check then. Nothing like good old cherry picking.

Oh, did Commissars lose any wargear options? No?
Well then you can't.

Um, actually they did. They removed power mauls and axes, so thanks for the go ahead

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Redemption wrote:

tneva82 wrote:Yes yes good selective quote. Said page also says newer datasheet overwrites old one. Old one no longer exists. Your quote matters only when datasheet DISAPEARS like it did with warp spider jump generator autarch and rough riders.

Old datasheet does not exists once new comes. Otherwise you could nitpick datasheet you want. Old commisar? Sure go ahead. FAQ only deals with the codex entry so if you can use datasheet that's been updated legal play to take old style commisar from index.

This:

Matt.Kingsley wrote:If you think otherwise, why would they reference dreadnought weapons?

Dreadnoughts exist in both the index and the codex, but options like the twin autocannon have been removed.

Of course in case of the Autarch, you'd also have to use the old Path of Command and Banshee Mask rules from the index.

Did they quarantee you can use them on matched play?

GW has been clear on new datasheet replacing old one. If you can use old and new datasheets along then I'll take index commisars with 1 guy autopassing morale check then. Nothing like good old cherry picking.

Oh, did Commissars lose any wargear options? No?
Well then you can't.

Um, actually they did. They removed power mauls and axes, so thanks for the go ahead

And Laspistols.

Ah an important loss! lol

Cataphract wrote:
Magnus got Bamboozled

Delicious.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Ah an important loss! lol

Not really, but I was digging through my stash of models I've been gifted with over the years and found out I had two DKoK Commissars(one of them is the really nice event one rocking a helmet instead of a hat)...both with Laspistols.

Imagine my surprise when I was trying to find out if I could give them Laspistols.

Oh, I stand corrected then, lol.
Ah GW...

Outside of a strict tournament list I think the wargear losses (while it sucks GW is going that way) are really easy to ignore when playing a game.

I can't think of a single player who would be upset if you said "Hey...these guys have laspistols instead of bolt pistols" etc. You have the stats for them in your book and they're on your model.

You want to model up a Primaris Captain with a power axe and a plasma pistol? Cool, go for it, just pay the points. As long as it's something reasonable which matches the unit type --- whatever. It's not going to break the game.

 Elbows wrote:
Outside of a strict tournament list I think the wargear losses (while it sucks GW is going that way) are really easy to ignore when playing a game.

I can't think of a single player who would be upset if you said "Hey...these guys have laspistols instead of bolt pistols" etc. You have the stats for them in your book and they're on your model.

You want to model up a Primaris Captain with a power axe and a plasma pistol? Cool, go for it, just pay the points. As long as it's something reasonable which matches the unit type --- whatever. It's not going to break the game.

Actually, Primaris Captains can use Powerfist and Plasma Pistols.

(wink) That's why I said power axe. But you get my point, if you want to equip someone with some legacy equipment which has been around since Rogue Trader - pay the points and I won't have an issue.

Again, want a Primaris Captain with twin lightning claws? Cool, just pay the points. It's not some massive hurdle unless you're being scrutinized for a tournament, etc.

Cataphract wrote:
Magnus got Bamboozled

Why is Eldrad there, he was exiled from Ulthwe?

Isn't Ulthwe on team Ynnead? Why is an avatar there?

Cataphract wrote:
Magnus got Bamboozled

Spoiler:

Where is this picture from?

It's in the new 8th Eldar Codex - so perhaps new or from the Gathering Storm book?

 Crazyterran wrote:
Isn't Ulthwe on team Ynnead? Why is an avatar there?

Ulthwe was split down the middle, loads followed Eldrad out the door with Yvrain joining the Reborn Warhost, the rest stayed put and were unconvinced regarding Ynnead.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Elbows wrote:
It's in the new 8th Eldar Codex - so perhaps new or from the Gathering Storm book?

It's not from the Fracture of Biel-Tan, so it's either new or from Rise of the Primarck.

 admironheart wrote:
So my understanding is that the base Autarch got a 5 point price increase. So now I want to use my Warp Jump Autarch with reaper launcher.

The weapon is fine...they say to use the new points which dropped from 31 to 25 I believe. Easy enough.

But the old Warp Jump Autarch was only 7 points more than the base Autarch. So with no point pricing for the Warp Jump we are getting the old index points essentially for 2 points more than the new higher priced Codex Autarch.

Or how would you go about pricing the index version with the current Codex?

AND it did say they can use Chapter Tactics as an example. Does this mean the warp jump generator Autarch has access to Warlord traits, relics, and other CWE strategems/etc????

Mandragola wrote:
Yeah exactly. Neither option currently works. Or at least it works but doesn't make sense to get a jump generator for 2 points.

This is why I'm saying there need to be two parts to the FAQ. Part one needs to explain what the rules actually are, and part two needs to errata the index and codex in the light of that.

So for instance in part two you'd probably add 5 or more points to the cost of an autarch with jump generator, and you'd add a sentence to the codex warlord trait saying that you couldn't snipe characters with heavy weapons... with the possible exception of sniper rifles I guess.

Not quiet.

The basic Autarch and the Autarch with Wings have the same base cost as the index versions - however, they both now have fixed weapon options. As a result an Autach in the codex is 71 points, and with wings it is 98 points. The Warp Jump Autach in the index rocks in at 73 + weapons. But base to base, the Warp Jump is priced at 8 points. Your Autach would come in at 95 points BUT would not be able to deep strike unless it gets FAQd, as the new Warp Generators allow deepstrike (i believe), but the Index rules do not.

Cataphract wrote:
Magnus got Bamboozled

I want my Magnus sized Avatar now!